(The Frozen Wheel)
(The Return Of The O6)
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****Actually there is no evidence that Jin and Sun's view of Ji Yeon as their baby (a person) has any religious motivation, or that Jin and Sun have any religion at all. Sun simply sees the ''scientific'' evidence of there being a baby (person) though '''seeing''' her on the ultrasound (fetus means nothing more or less than a baby pre-birth). Ultrasound shows legs, arms, head, heartbeat, etc. so clearly this is not a blob of unformed tissue or a frog but her (and yay Jin's too!) baby. Religious arguments over when a soul comes into being are unnecessary and beside the point here - some people don't believe in souls at all but they still believe in people. If it looks like a baby and acts like a baby and grows like a baby, in accordance with logic, it can be considered a baby. Whether or not Ji Yeong has to return to the Island remains up in the air because we don't know whether the rules apply the same to persons unborn as to persons born. But it is entirely consistent and contextually correct to just refer to the pre-born as babies - practically every pregnant character on Lost refers to her baby as a baby before they are actually born. And Juliet's primary job as an other was to figure out why the mothers are dying and why babies conceived on the island don't survive while those conceived off the island do. So let's go with it - it makes a much more interesting story than if we try to write them off as non-persons.
****Actually there is no evidence that Jin and Sun's view of Ji Yeon as their baby (a person) has any religious motivation, or that Jin and Sun have any religion at all. Sun simply sees the ''scientific'' evidence of there being a baby (person) though '''seeing''' her on the ultrasound (fetus means nothing more or less than a baby pre-birth). Ultrasound shows legs, arms, head, heartbeat, etc. so clearly this is not a blob of unformed tissue or a frog but her (and yay Jin's too!) baby. Religious arguments over when a soul comes into being are unnecessary and beside the point here - some people don't believe in souls at all but they still believe in people. If it looks like a baby and acts like a baby and grows like a baby, in accordance with logic, it can be considered a baby. Whether or not Ji Yeong has to return to the Island remains up in the air because we don't know whether the rules apply the same to persons unborn as to persons born. But it is entirely consistent and contextually correct to just refer to the pre-born as babies - practically every pregnant character on Lost refers to her baby as a baby before they are actually born. And Juliet's primary job as an other was to figure out why the mothers are dying and why babies conceived on the island don't survive while those conceived off the island do. So let's go with it - it makes a much more interesting story than if we try to write them off as non-persons.
*****Ben was turning the wheel due to a misunderstanding. He can return to the island because he was never meant to leave in the first place; Locke can't return because he was initially supposed to turn the wheel and be banished. The Island still needs Ben for something.
*****Ben was turning the wheel due to a misunderstanding. He can return to the island because he was never meant to leave in the first place; Locke can't return because he was initially supposed to turn the wheel and be banished. The Island still needs Ben for something.
:::*That doesn't explain why he was crying while he turned the wheel.
******That doesn't explain why he was crying while he turned the wheel.
******Because he obviously didn't know that he whole thing was a misunderstanding and genuinely believed that he has to move the island and never go back.
*******Because he obviously didn't know that he whole thing was a misunderstanding and genuinely believed that he has to move the island and never go back.
* Ben needs to bring Locke's dead body back in order to reclaim leadership, just as Locke had to bring Anthony Cooper's body back to the Others after having him killed.
* Ben needs to bring Locke's dead body back in order to reclaim leadership, just as Locke had to bring Anthony Cooper's body back to the Others after having him killed.
*When the losties first crash on the island with CS in a coffin, they were putted there in order to correct some other time travel mistakes that happened before. This is why all of them are related or have a special connection with each other. They all had to "go back" to put the pieces back into place.
*When the losties first crash on the island with CS in a coffin, they were putted there in order to correct some other time travel mistakes that happened before. This is why all of them are related or have a special connection with each other. They all had to "go back" to put the pieces back into place.

Revision as of 21:53, February 13, 2009

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Ben's surprise at Desmond's comment

  • Ben obviously didn't know that Daniel Faraday's mom was Eloise. Since Ben probably knows Eloise was an other then I believe this kind of leans toward the direction that Eloise was hiding this from Ben, probably because Daniel's father was Widmore.
    • Hang on...does Ben actually know Daniel? I wasn't aware they'd met. I might be wrong. As others have said, I think it's kind of obvious that Ms. Hawking is Daniel's mum, especially considering the fact we almost got her name (meaning it's relevant, possibly meaning we'd recognise it. The directors want us to piece it together) and we know Daniel named his rat Eloise. I'm not entirely sure about the theory that Widmore is his dad, but then how would he have known 'Daniel Faraday's mother's' address? He must know her, so I guess it's plausible. As for Ben's reaction, I think he's possibly starting to think that things were going all too well. Sun turning up, then Desmond, willing to know? I think he was either quite delighted or just thinking he had overlooked Desmond.
    • When Eloise learns Widmore intends to exploit the island, she turns to his nemesis, Ben, to protect it.
    • There was nothing in the scene to confirm that Hawking is Faraday's mother at all. Desmond said he was there to find Faraday's mother, to which Ben simply stared and walked away (almost a mild guffaw). Maybe he thought that Desmond's attempts were merely foolish, as if he'd been duped by Faraday (or someone else) or he was trying to foil Ben's plan (a la Widmore).
      • There was no obvious surprise in Ben's expression, except possibly at seeing Desmond there (before speaking to each other). Ben forgot about Desmond or perhaps realized that Penny may be nearby. But Ben is not a character to show surprise, even if and when he might really be surprised.
        • Ben could just as easily be surprised that a) Desmond is there, b) Desmond knows that Hawking is Faraday's mother, c) Desmond thinks that Hawking is Faraday's mother, d) Desmond knows of Faraday and Hawking at all, e) something of which we haven't seen a hint yet. This is hardly proof that Hawking and Faraday are related or that Ben did not know this.
    • Hawking may only be Faraday's Mother-In-Law as is pointed out in the Charlotte theories as Daniel flashed perhaps before finishing his sentence.
      • Except that in this episode, he clearly says that he sent Desmond to his mother when speaking to Charlotte, when no flash interrupts him.
  • Desmond will become caught up with Hawking/O2/Ben going back to the island. He will then be separated from Penny, and he will become the antagonist to Ben for what he has done to him.
  • Ben, knowing that Penny is with Desmond, will kill Penny to exact his revenge on Charles Widmore.
  • Ben shows real puzzlement over Desmond's appearance and - based on his expression - may not be aware that she is Daniel's mother. He is out of his depth for the first time with regards to Desmond.
  • Ben's puzzled look could have been him quickly piecing things together. How does Desmond know that Hawking is Faraday's mother? Widmore has that information. Ben realizes that Desmond has a connection to Widmore, and therefore Penny (if he wasn't already aware of their relationship, which he very likely could be). Ben will now use Desmond to get to Penny.
    • He knew who Faraday's mother was through his extensive research not only on Widmore (Daniel's father) but also everyone who came on the freighter. Since it took great amounts to find this out, he was surprised somebody as plain as Desmond knew this bit of information. Instead of asking Desmond how he got that information he gave only a surprised look since they are in a hurry and there's more important things to do for now.
    • It's not likely that Ben was unaware of the Desmond/Penny relationship because Desmond was in the hatch (and therefore being observed by the others) for a long time. I don't recall who he was w/ in the hatch, but he must have mentioned her at some point.
  • It may be that since Daniel altered time, Ben (or Ben's source of information) didn't know that this happened and that Desmond's course or fate has changed or Ben expected things to happen in an entirely different manner.
  • Also notice how Eloise, seeing Desmond in the group when she turns around, doesn't make any comments about him confirming that he is indeed part of "everyone" that Ben was supposed to bring.
  • Widmore gave Desmond the address for Faradays motherm ,or maybe not. He might actually want Desmond back on the island and away from penny to protect her so sent him to Ms. Hawking knowing that she is working with Ben, not entirely convinced that she is Faraday's mother.
    • Ben spoke to Locke after he left the island ad would have been aware of the "time-jumping."
      • Did Ben actually speak to John, or is "coming to see him" referring to the season four finale scene when he visits his coffin? Theory: He found the ring on John while transporting him and believed it proof that Jin was alive instead of dead. Thus everyone (for once) did the honest thing in this situation: John kept his promise to Jin, Ben gave what he thought was proof of Jin's life to Sun to convince her to return to the island. --- But perhaps everyone acting like a decent human being on this show is too much to hope for.
  • Desmond represents a loose-cannon variable and a major Widmore connection to all of Ben/O6 plans. That look of surprise is also stress and fear of the unknown.
  • In "The Little Prince" Daniel tells Ellie she looks 'familiar'. This could mean that Ellie is Mrs. Hawking, because he thinks he looks like her, and Eloise could be the long version of the name Ellie. Added with the suspense music which came after Desmond said to Ben he was looking for Faraday's mother, suggests something has been revealed.
  • The island apparently does not require Desmond. He wasn't on Jacob's list. He was recruited in a different way (likely by Widmore).

Available windows for time skips

  • When Locke fixed the wheel the time stopped around the start of the Dharma initiative (maybe during or slightly before). Faraday will then infiltrate the Orchid at some point (and talk to Chang and Charlotte). It may be that Daniel completely loses his grip on reality and respect for "the rules" after Charlotte died. He looked pretty distraught and we know he was screwed up in Essex on 9/22/04. These are indicators that maybe Daniel is about to "go Rogue." In this respect perhaps Daniel is responsible for the final shift (wheel turn) that will bring the island back to 2007/8 and that is why he was in the Orchid in "Because You Left." If not it appears he is at least about to go crazy (listen to Comic Con video- the spazy-ness in his voice while he carelessy throws around info about the future to Chang! Doesn't sound like a responsible physicist obeying the rules of time does it?
  • Just a point of clarification: 9/22/2004 was when 815 crashed. We saw Daniel on the day discovery of the wreckage in the Sunda Trench was announced; this between days 75 and 80, in December 2004.

There is only going to be a short amount of time when the Island is going to be in 2008. This is when the O6+ need to get to the island. This is why Ms. Hawking gave Ben such a specific time table. If not all of them can make it back in this up-coming window, the rest will have to wait until the next window (maybe months later).

  • Yes maybe when the island "moves" in time it also moves to a random point on earth. Mrs. Hawking can somehow calculate and predict where the island will be in the next 70 hours. As you can see on that weird machine there are alot of other spots already marked from past predictions which have already occured. She basically got lucky and managed to somehow find the next future window. It may be in another time, not in 2008 but that is what makes the island special. Since Locke managed to stop the island from skipping in time and 3D space, it is basically now stationary and Hawking can finally get a trace on where it is for the time being.
    • The other rule presumably is that the off island people can only move to a present time. They are not time traveling. So they can go to where the island is going to be now, but they have to wait to intersect it at a future location.
  • The Island moves to different wheres and whens. Getting to the wheres isn't too hard to do if you have the right resources, but there are only certain times when the Island is in a time close enough for them to get "on board"
  • The island doesn't "move" through time. Time moves on the island - this explains why the setting of objects on the island changes with each skip (i.e. why the camp doesn't come too) the island is not actually going anywhere; the time that defines "the present" is constantly changing as a result of the wheel off its axis. If you want to think of it in terms of motion the travelers are stationary while time shifts around them - the island is not "going" anywhere. I may be wrong later when we find out more about the wheel's effect on space.
  • The Island is not moving in time. The Leftbehinds are.
  • Actually, the fact that the wheel got knocked off its axle shows that the Island itself is indeed moving in time. The wheel's erratic movements are causing the flashes that the Losties experience.
  • If the Island were moving through time, it wouldn't be changing as it is (beach camp disappearing and reappearing, Orchid there then not, etc.). It would stay the same, as the people on it do. It might be moving through space, but it is not moving through time as they are.
  • It is moving through time in the same way Desmond does (present consciousness occupying past body). While the Leftbehinds are physically traveling through time.
  • If the island didnt move, then why do they have to find it again? what makes it special is that it has its own bubble of the space time continuum so if you sail there you will enter the current segment in time. Farady proves this in season 4 by showing the slight time differential which is now a couple of years off. Widmore obviously knows where it is and so does Penny yet Hawking is trying to figure out its next location. You can reach the island easily. Theres no secret door that needs to be unlocked, all you need to know is where is the next location.
  • Entry to The Island is via a degree-specific bearing. Moving The Island changes the bearing, and finding the necessary bearing for entry on Earth is like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack.
  • Perhaps the Island is physically nowhere because of the malfunction of the Wheel. Locke "reseating" it will return it to the "real world." While in limbo, the people present when the malfunction occured are "adrift" in time, since the Island isn't anywhere real, but will return to the present when the Island is anchored again thanks to Locke.
  • The islands location cant be proved. The universe thinks theres nothing there, so all the the laws of physics point to that same conclusion yet somehow the universe got fooled. It's like detecting black holes, cant see them but you can see the effects they cause Ex. when the Hatch blew up and created a electromagnetic anomoly which can be detected by the outside world yet where it came from still will point to nothingness.
  • The rules say that you can't change the past or the future. Therefore, when the Island moves in time, it goes in space to where it was/will be at that time. Therefore, when the Island goes back to 2004, we know it is now in the place where it was in 2004. Otherwise you'd be changing the past.
  • I think you to separate the leftbehind's moving through time and the islands moving through space/time. I think that Locke just stabilized one of these things by correcting the wheel. I think he may have stabilized the leftbehind's consciousness shifting through time, but the island is still moving physical locations. Or it could be the other way around. I think it's a false assumption to bundle together the leftbehind's consciousness and the island's movement through space/time.
  • If the island stopped shifting when he turned the wheel, the window of time/place needed to return wouldn't be an issue. It seems from Hawking's research that there is a specific time and place where the island will be w/in the next 70 hours. It would be there indeffinately if it stopped shifting. Between the time Locke left and the time they are ready to return, it seems like, at least Ben and Mrs. Hawking assume its still moving somewhere or sometime. It must be your first assumption. They are stabalized but not the island. Unless it's not the island she's looking for, but rather it's when they will be there in 2008. This doesn't seem to be the case though from looking at her notes and her Foucault's Pendulum.
  • The windows mentioned in the preview for next week aren't related to the island moving, nor are they 'windows through time' per se, nor are these 'windows' new. The island has always had to be traveled to through a specific window, because the space around it curves back on itself. This is why Desmond couldn't sail away, this is why the rocket took so long to get there (had to travel a curved path around the space-curvature to reach a 'window'), this is how doc Ray's body arrived 'before' he was killed, and why you can only leave or reach the island by traveling on a specific bearing. These windows change every so often, and the Others have the capability to calculate their location. Because the island's been shifting through space-time erratically, these windows have been changing every 70 (and change) hours, which is why Hawking sounded so urgent before. Now that the island has stopped moving, it will be much easier to find one of these 'windows' through the curved-space around the island in order to reach it without any strange temporal effects (space and time are linked, remember), which is why she's relatively calm when Ben only has a few of the people he needs to get back.
    • Because of the warped space-time around the island, it may also have direct physical connections to certain distant places, such as Tunisia. The space between a certain point in Tunisia and a certain point or points on the Island is folded back on itself, meaning the actual distance between the two is almost non-existant. I don't think we can ignore Charlotte's comment about Carthage. it stood out among the rest of the craziness.


Can we remember to put this in context. Constants are not needed for absolutely everyone on the Island. Only those whose mind is jumping through time, such as Desmond and Minkowski, and possibly Daniel because he made a note in his journal about Desmond.

  • Those still on the Island must find their constants to be cured of the temporal shifts, and each of the Oceanic 6, Ben and Desmond must go back because they are someone on the Island's constant.
    • Ben is Charlotte's Constant because he is possibly her "Daddy"--not the man her mother remarried in England but her birth father she remembers leaving behind on the Island. ("This Place Is Death")
      • A Constant is something someone deeply cares about from both time periods. This may be an indication that Charlotte does not share Daniel's feelings, or Charlotte may care for Daniel now, but back then she thought he was a scary man.
        • No it's not. Daniel obviously does not deeply care for Desmond, yet he specifies him as a constant if needed. I think the whole idea of constants is still being blown out of proportion.
          • From the transcript of "The Constant": DAN: Something familiar in both times. All this, see this is variables, it's random, it's chaotic. Every equation needs stability, something known. It's called a constant. Desmond, you have no constant. When you go to the future, nothing there is familiar. So if you want to stop this, then you need to find something there...something that you really, really care about....that also exists back here, in 1996.

While I agree that people are applying the "constant" theory in inappropriate situations, Faraday explicitly says that a constant has to be something one cares about.

        • Even if not, note that back in 1996 Daniel met physical 1996 version of Desmond, thus Des can be his Constant. With Charlotte-Daniel that is obviously not the case, because Charlotte met 2005 version of Daniel, only time-travelling to late 80s(?). What confuses me more is how did Charlotte recall this situation? Until that I just thought that recalling such time paradoxes involves those meetings to happen in both persons' absolute timeline - that is why Danielle didn't remember Jin among the Losties and Desmond recalled Daniel's appearence at the Swan even 3 years after it "happened" in both timelines. Maybe Charlotte's brain jumped to the time when Daniel had already been physically back in the 80s and she recalled it "back" then and returned to Daniel to recognize him?
          • There is only one timeline; it just folds upon itself. One person's past can intersect with another person's future, or vice versa.
          • Daniel does care for Desmond, because when he first meets Desmond he discovers that his theories about time travel are true. Desmond represents proof of Daniel's theories and that is something Daniel cares deeply about.
          • Also, in Daniel's explanation to Desmond about constants he says that a constant is something someone deeply cares about.
    • Charlotte's consciousness appeared to be traveling through time when her case went terminal. When/if the other characters go terminal their consciousnesses may become unstuck also.
      • Agreed - her case seems very similar to Theresa's. If a constant does indeed help in this situation, then Dan is likely helping her to reset when her consciousness gets unstuck. Only since the Island keeps moving to random times (unlike Desmond, where it only shifted back and forth between 2 times) then she needs to reset more than once.
  • There are 2 kinds of time travel:
  1. Physical - This happens when you're "along for the ride" with something (the Island) that's time-traveling (Since the wheel got knocked off the axle the Island has become unstuck in time. The Losties are along for the ride because they were on the Island (but not of it) when it started moving.
  2. Mental - This happens when you've experienced high doses of radiation or electromagnetism, and then go through physical time travel (because the wheel is turning or because you strayed off the bearings coming/going to/from the Island). PLUS, each time you physically travel in time, you're exposed to high amounts of radiation/electromagnetism (that's the bright light and painful flash). This increases your chances of becoming mentally unstuck in time. Those who've lived longest on the Island have been exposed to long-term radiation/electromagnetism because the Island has this source of limitless power (radiation/electromagnetism), so they're the first to experience the side effects, both physical and mental. Desmond got his overdose by turning the key. Charlotte got hers by living on the Island, perhaps spending too much time close to the orchid station. The others are still below threshold. Dan forgot to cover his head, so he's experiencing memory loss, but since he wore his lead jacket faithfully, he's also still below threshold. Of all the current Losties, he's spent the least amount of time on Island.
  • There are 2 problems associated with Time travel:
  1. Physical - nosebleeds. These happen first when you physically travel through time, as the Losties on the Island are now. They happen next when you mentally travel through time, as in Desmond's/George's case.
  2. Mental - your consciousness gets unstuck and you're disoriented in time. This happens first when you mentally travel through time. It happen next when you Physically travel through time, as in Charlotte's case.
    • You don't actually die unless both of these problems get extreme. George was unstuck and had nosebleeds. Charlotte also seems to have become unstuck with major nosebleeds. The others have only the nosebleeds so far.
    • When you become mentally unstuck (whether due to consciousness travel or physical travel) you need a constant. Desmond was only consciousness-traveling so once he found his constant and made the call his consciousness stopped traveling and he was fine. But Charlotte's mental travel is sparked by the physical travel.

Christian Shepherd

  • His "death" in Australia was to provide a means to ferry his body back to the Island, via Oceanic 815. Perhaps the same holds true for Locke, who we assume will be "reincarnated" upon his body's return to the Island. Until now, Christian Shepherd has been an occult character, ostensibly human but having mystical qualities. It seems obvious that Locke will return and continue to be a driving character, but to what extent? What form will his being be manifested as? I think he will return as an entirely difference character than we have known thus far.
  • Is it possible Christian IS Jacob?
    • The way Christian spoke to Locke made me think he is Jacob. He told Locke, "You came to see me in the Cabin" or something like that. Locke was going to see Jacob. He doesn't even know who Christian Shepherd is. But I know that Christian was in Jacob's cabin, sitting in the rocking chair, and Jacob popped his head into the window and surprised Hurley in "The Beginning of the End." Still, the writers wrote that line for Christian to say. I'm probably just looking too much into it.
      • Ben finds a lantern and lights it when he goes down to the donkey wheel. There's no reason to believe the one Christian lights is a different one. And Christian expressly denied being Jacob when Locke asked ("Cabin Fever": Locke: Are you Jacob? Christian: No. But I can speak on his behalf.). Granted, he disparages relying on Ben's word, so it's possible he represents a different "faction" with a different agenda and would therefore lie. But it doesn't seem very likely -- lying about being Jacob would be more likely to gain Locke's compliance than lying about not being Jacob.
        • Just because Jacob and Ben communicated does not mean Jacob likes Ben. The only words Locke ever heard Jacob speak were "Help Me." I think that experience versus the later experiences in which Christian was in the cabin, point to two separate people. And also, just because Christian states that believing Ben has never gotten Locke anywhere, this does not mean his take on things necessarily differ from Jacob's.
  • At some point in the past, Christian lived on the island, possibly as part of the Dharma Initiative. Perhaps he turned the wheel or something, unsticking himself in time, which explains why he's periodically appeared on the island for brief flashes. If his children were his constants, that explains why time shifting hasn't killed him. If just Jack was his constant, perhaps that is the reason he wants Jack to return to the island.
    • This might also explain how for whatever reason, Christian was able to become a gifted surgeon, but then somehow developed into a substance-abusing addict. Perhaps he has experienced the island and left the island already.
    • It doesn't really need anything to explain it. Plenty of gifted doctors become alcoholics having never lived on a magical island.
      • Given that the Dharma Initiative was most active during Jack's childhood years, it is highly unlikely Christian was a member. Remember, Emily Linus also walked around on the island, and she had never been there. Yemi also walked around, even though he had never been to the island before his death.
        • Christian had time to father a child in Australia during Jack's childhood, is it really out of the question he also spent some time on the island?
          • Fathering Claire took 1 hour, visiting and staying on an Island would take a wee bit longer.
            • In "Par Avion," Christian claims that he visited Claire quite a bit when she was a small child. If he was making many flights from LA to Australia, and if the Island was steadily located between them, (and if getting there didn't require the crash of a commercial airliner), he could certainly have spent time on the Island years ago.
        • Maybe Christian is also Charlotte's father. And Daniel's, for good measure.
  • Christian doesn't help Locke up because... really he's just a ghost with no physical body? He didn't want to touch Locke for some reason. It felt like something more than tough love for Locke's weakness (another leg injury).
    • I also think that Christian is merely manifestation of the island. The fact that he replies "No, sorry, I CAN'T" when Locke asks for his help to get up points to that he's physically unable to do that, hance he's kinda not real. But the fact that Jacob/the island picked Christian as a mean of connection should have something deep in it.
      • Contradicted by the fact that he picks up and cradles Aaron.
    • Christian was angry at Locke because Locke didn't turn the wheel originally and that is why he didn't help him up.
      • Not likely, this is saying "I wont" rather than "I cant"
    • When Claire saw him, he was holding Aaron, but that could have been a vision.
        • Perhaps he just needed Locke to find to the strength to do it himself, after all it is him that must solely move the island.
  • Locke will tell Jack that he spoke to his father just before leaving the island and that will be what really makes Jack believe he/they has/ve to go back.
    • This is assuming that it was truly Christian speaking when he said "Say hello to my son." Is it possible that Christian was possessed by the spirit of Jacob ("You came to see me...") and that "my son" is someone else entirely? Locke asks who he is referring to but shifts before Christian can answer.
      • I agree with that, he didn't answer. If it was fully Christian Shepherd, we already know that he was Claire's father besides Jack's, he might have another son outside and he knows John will see him; on the other hand, if it is Jacob, he could perfectly even be Faraday's father or anyone else's
        • Any time there is a twist, the writers reinforce something in an ambiguous way (i.e. talking about Jin's death right before he was revealed to be alive). They just reinforced that Christian has a son, implying that he meant Jack, but the truth is that this is Jacob talking, and he has a son. That's why "Christian" Didn't answer.
          • If we assume that it was, in fact, Jacob speaking, and further that at some point Jacob had a physical form as to have a son, and assuming that it is a person who is NOT on the island (as that's where Locke was going, away from the island) then one possible candidate would be Charles Widmore. We know he was on the island, it's possible he was born there. This would explain why he considers the island to be "his."
          • Aside from Widmore, the only other male characters who have left the island and have unseen fathers are Desmond, Sayid and Frank Lapidus. The latter two seem unlikely candidates, but having Jacob as a father could explain why Desmond is "special".
      • I also thought about this. I don't think the producers abrupted their dialogue like this without a reason. The reason i find relevant for those guys - a nice plot twist which would be just that.
        • This season has had a lot of moments where things seem to be coming together before they fall apart at the last moment. Ben almost recruits Hurley. The gang is reunited at the marina, but then Kate and Sayid take off before Ben can sell them on returning. Before Alpert can tell Locke how to leave, there's a time flash. Before Christian can tell Locke the name of his son, Locke teleports somewhere else. So either destiny keeps throwing a monkeywrench or the writers are torturing us.
  • Christian is representative of a force working at cross-purposes to Jacob. He (it) has assumed Jacob's role to deceive Locke (and Ben). Jacob's last words were to Locke: "Help me." Since then, all we have is Christian's word that he speaks for Jacob.
  • Jacob and christian could be the light and dark forces fighting over the island.

Christian appears to have landed on the island in a coffin,Mr Lock is currently in a coffin and possibly on his way back to the island. Maybe christian had to sacrifice himself just like it appears lock will do to return to the island, but why. He might have wanted jack and claire with him knowing that he cannot leave again so payed thomas to leave her and also payed off Mr. Malkon the physic to give claire the ticket for the plane. He got jack to come and collect his coffin so he would also be on the flight, plausable but how did he get to the island originally and how did he leave. Also if christian did "sacrifice" himself like lock, who was he trying to get to return to the island, some people on the plane maybe?

    • I can't shake the Christian that we know from Sawyer, Ana Lucia, Jack and other's flashbacks. He was a a loser. He couldn't hold his job, his family, or anything else. he was a broken man. very similar to who jack has become since his return. I don't think Christian had any clue that he was a catalyst for bringing these people to the island.... but just like Ben is totally playing jack, it is possible that Christian was being played as well.
  • Next week's episode is named 316, and on the Ajira Airways website, there is a flight 316 that departs at 11:30am (you can select the flight number without selecting a destination - weird), but it would seem to me this is related to how the O6 return. (Slightly off topic but if you visit the website, you can view a boarding pass for the airline and it's background watermark is the same symbol that appears in the upper left portion of each Dharma logo's octagonal border.

Ms. Hawking

Ms. Hawking is Jacob and has been calling the shots the whole time.

  • He seems to answer to her and he doesn't answer to anyone but Jacob
  • She knows more than he does. Anyone who knows more than Ben scares Ben, because they are outside of his control.
  • It doesn't seem likely that Faraday's mother is secretly Jacob. Besides, since Jacob seems to dislike technology, he probably wouldn't live in Los Angeles.
  • She's Ellie. Ellie/Widmore's aging matches up with present-day Eloise/Widmore. It's actually Hawking and Widmore who are at odds over the island, and Ben is more than just Jacob's pawn, but also Hawking's pawn. The "rules" were established by Hawking and Widmore, Ben just followed them because Hawking demanded it. In season 6, Ben is going to be much less mysterious, and the O6 and Ben will be on completely even ground. It will be Hawking/Widmore who are the mysterious ones with all the knowledge.
    • I think is is pretty evident she is Ellie. The age matches, and no way the writers are going to randomly throw in a woman who plays a major role in an episode, who gets recognized by the son of Elloise, and who shares a name with another major character if the pieces don't fit.
    • I think the 'rules' Ben and Jacob were referring to were not rules of a game (as I origianlly thought) but rules of phsyics. They likely CAN'T kill each other due to time consistencies just like Desmond couldn't answer the door for Sawyer.
  • The church is the Unknown station. When it is first shown in this episode, the first view is of a lamppost similar to the one on the station logo.
    • The Unknown Station logo looks like the pendiulm swinging in the computer room in the basement of the church.[1]
    • I'd suggest the unknow station logo looks more like a lamp/lantern - and there's a lot of talk of those on this page...
      • Actually the logo looks exactly like a lighthouse - and the Island could use one of those.
        • I think the logo looks more like a lampost than a lighthouse. The top is bigger than the bottom. It's obviously on a stand of some sort. Damon said that Charlotte was named after CS Lewis as a nod to the similarities between Narnia and the Island - that they are two worlds connected to one another that can be accessed from certain points. If this is the location that the Oceanic Six use to return to the Island it would be another nod to Narnia to have its logo be a lampost - just like the one that stands outside the wardrobe, at the connecting point between Narnia and our world.

Robert & Danielle Rousseau

How does he know about the temple? What happens to Robert, Brennan and Lacombe when they go after Montand?

  • I think the question "What happened to Montand?" is more correct, since we did not see his dead body on the beach after the "i'm mad you're mad" incident.
  • Seems to me the voice of Montand is "made up" by the monster as a bait for the rest of the French. Once they get in the cave they get infested, sick or whatever you call it. Though there's a little chance that Rousseau is really the one going crazy, that's why Robert is trying to shoot her.
    • Even if your very pregnant wife were insane, you would not shoot to kill her.
  • We may never find out. Too few episodes to go into much depth, it's a shame.
  • The actress playing young Rousseau is a regular cast member this season, so I'm sure we'll be seeing her and her storyline again. I don't think time is that much of a factor- we've learned so much about Rousseau's island origins in the last two episodes already, and she's probably not gotten more than a 15 minutes of screen time. I'm sure that with 30-some epsiodes to go, they'll be able to squeeze her in for at least a few more moments to wrap her story up.
    • Since when is she a regular cast member? Both this episode and last she was listed as a guest star. (And, after this week's episode, I believe that there are only 26 episodes left in the series (10 this season, 16 next).)
  • I thought I saw her listed as regular cast, but I could be mistaken. Either way, I don't see them leaving this lose end unresolved because there are "too few" episodes left to deal with it. The shows seems to be moving into full-blown "answer mode" now, and I couldn't see them taking us this far into Rousseau's (and the smoke monster's) story just to leave us hanging.
    • We can't be seeing young Rousseau too much and answer explore much more of her story line or else she would know more in the future... for instance, she never did see any of the others so she is basically gonna be left alone -- again not much of a story or dialogue etc. Hmm... well she'll have her baby stolen so there are a few things left to happen to her but nothing except be a target or an object of some action. She never did see any of the others she just knew they were there.
      • She said she'd never seen Others. 1) She's not quite sane. 2) She could have lied.
    • We can safely assume that 2004 Rousseau is as crazy as every one on the island thinks she is. Look what she's been through: giant smoke monster, watching Jin disapear and reappear, driven to kill all her friends and her husband, having her baby stolen, plus who knows what else she's seen or been through on that crazy island over the last 16 years. Needless to say, she has a very warped sense of reality. I would not be at all surprised if 2004 Rouseau recognized at least some of the 815 survivors from their time-traveling adventures, and just didn't mention it because in her reality, it wasn't that big of a deal.
      • I was led to believe the reason she never mentioned seeing Jin was because it never happened, until Jin went back in time. Had Danielle been still alive, she would have woken up (in the same way Desmond did in Because You Left) and remembered it all. Either that or 16 years is a long time, and you can easily forget what someone looks like, especially someone's face that you have seen, for at most, a few hours.
        • That is incorrect. Seeing Jin had always been in Danielle's past even if on the day the Kahana exploded it was still in Jin's future.
          • No that is incorrect. Desmond's "memory" appeared when it happened. The Losties are traveling on a straight string, even though time is altered around them. The "memory" of Jin won't happen until that point on the string, and since she is dead it never happens.
            • No, you are incorrect. it has been stated repeatedly that time can not be changed - what has happened will always happen. Your example of Desmond does not apply as it has been established that Desmond is "special". If time could be changed then it would become a never ending loop of changes with every event altering the future in a way that alters the time skips which then alters the past again.
      • Exactly. After all she's been through it's no surprise she is insane.

        • I think that Danielle probably did see Jin, and does recognise him, I doubt you'd forget something like that. She has gone a bit mad in the next 16 years and has probably experienced time shifts of her own, so knows how much it could freak someone out "Hi Jin, I met you 12 years ago, remember?" would probably make her sound even more mad. I think she just realises at this point not to mention it. How freaked out would Kate and Clare have been "Hi, I'm Sawyer from the future..Claire's dead and Kate's at home" ...
          • Well, you don't meet korean guys named "Jin" every day on this island. And I don't think that Rousseau has the same ability Desmond has (meaning evolving memories). I don't think that the show's creators would make a time travel mistake this big and at the same time having a character named "Hawking". So maybe Rousseau is acting. Or maybe she forgot. I will watch their very first (or is it second?) meeting to be sure...
    • It seems entirely plausible that we'll see Danielle's story unfold more as the season(s) progress. Damon and Carlton mentioned that her story would be revisited/resolved in later seasons. At the time viewers assumed they'd follow through by awarding Danielle flashbacks, as that was the key storytelling device of early seasons. Ben mentioned the Temple in season 4 as a refuge for the Others, when he told Alex and Karl to flee. It can't be simple coincidence that Danielle and her people stumbled upon it in "This Place is Death" (Coincidence just doesn't happen on Lost). Using Danielle and her team seems the easiest way for Lost to revisit the Temple and shed light on the Monster/the Others/etc. We just might have to wait until season 6...
  • Rousseau will have to return so we can find out who delivered Alex. She is alone now in 1988.
    • I take back my original comment after realizing Brennan is still alive. The message Rousseau recorded mentioned "Brennan took the keys" so if LOST ever revisits 1988, we'll be shown the whole situation that was Rousseau vs. Brennan and also Rousseau having Alex.
      • Realizing Brennan is still alive? How so? He is clearly seen dead lying on the beach.
  • Rousseau is the one who went crazy, Robert got 'enlightened' when he went down the CV, he saw something that made him understand why the monster has to protect the island (in a way making him see the same as the others, seeing protecting the island as important). Rousseau on the other hand went crazy (who knows why) and thus didn't believe him. She thought they were all 'sick', but they weren't. She yelled to Jin "you're sick too!" before firing at him, shes clearly lost a few marbles and has become the start of the paranoid, strange Rousseau we saw in 2003.
    • I believe there has to be something more to it than this. I was struck by the expression on Robert's face as soon as Rousseau let her guard conveyed a sense of hatred or determination. Even 'enlightened', I find it difficult to think that he wouldn't express some form of reluctance or hesitation at killing the mother of his child. Something fundamental changed.
      • To me it seemed obvious that her team died and that Robert and the man being dragged down the temple were merely a manifestation of the smoke monster (like Yemi) trying to manipulate her to let her guard down, when she did he went for the shot.
        • The monster kills by latching onto people and thrashing them about or tearing them apart. It doesn't shoot people.
  • Didn't Ben tell all the Others to go to the Temple, so during the flashes they'd all be hanging out inside. Likely meeting up with Rousseau's team. They could have convinced the team that Danielle was "not a good person" or something along those lines.
    • Yes Ben did tell them to all meet at the Temple but thus far we have only seen the plane crash survivors switching time periods, not the others. So, if the others / hostiles were there in the Temple when the French team was there then they were there originally in 1988 for other reasons.
      • They haven't really touched on it, but everyone else on island would have to be shifting through time as well shouldn't they? What would preclude this from happening to the Others? A former other (Juliet), Kahana crewman, and Losties all shift in time which you would assume means the Others do as well.
        • How many others are left, aside from Richard? And maybe Cindy and the teddy bear kids?
  • If the Others are also moving through time, they are doing so separately from the rest. Locke was with the Others when the first flash hit, but they were gone when he arrived in the past.
  • The temple is where Jacob resides and brainwashed the French people why they were down there.
  • The three Frenchmen met someone from the Others (maybe even Richard) and learned something that made them behave very strangely, for instance, Robert is told that his baby is going to die.
  • Could the fact that his gun fails mean that Danielle had "work to do" and that the island wouldn't let her die, ala Michael? Maybe she had a larger role than we know in other island events.
  • She saw Jin in 1988 for, what, a day? Then she saw him, in a crowd of other people, briefly in 2004, with 16 years of crazy-Island living in between. It's perfectly plausible that either a) she didn't recognize him or b) if she did, she suppressed her urge to sound even crazier by saying, "Didn't I see you, exactly as you are now, 16 years ago?"
    • Good point about the island needing her (or Alex) and need letting Danielle die. I was curious about the claim that Danielle took the pin from Robert's gun, as opposed to, it just jammed. She seemed shocked when it jammed too.
      • She told Sayid back in the first season during "Solitary" that she removed the pin from his gun, just like she did to Robert all those years ago. I think she was shocked that he was going to kill her because she believed him and let her guard down.
  • There's no reason to believe she would have ever remembered Jin up until her death. Remember what happened when Daniel spoke with Desmond? The memory of this happening was not "always with him" because in his original timeline, it DID NOT HAPPEN. However when Daniel spoke with him, the memory suddenly came to him in the future...under this logic, the same could be said for Danielle: had she not been killed, the memory of meeting Jin may have also suddenly appeared to her after Jin changed the past. I realize Desmond is "different" somehow, but it's still the only logical explination as to why Danielle never acknowledged Jin from her past.
    • That's right, but then why does Charlotte suddenly realize that Daniel is the one who warned her never to came back to the island when she was young? This is a memory she has always had, and on her death bed it dawns on her the man was Daniel. But Daniel doesn't know what she's talking about so if it was him, he is yet to do this. This creates some incontinuity in how the memory of meeting time travellers works.
      • I don't think multiple timelines is a solution in Lost. It would be too easy. If anytime they change something, another future is created, well, 6 seasons is not enough! I believe that only Faraday and Hume (for now) can switch. So what is done in the past, is done. You can't change it.


  • Going into the Cerberus vent under the Temple causes individuals to turn into Others.
  • Others are just the Hostiles and those who have joined them. They're not like werewolves.
  • But something happened to make them hostile towards Danielle. If they learned something about the Island and became defenders of it, doesn't that make them Others by definition if not birth? As to why they were attacking Danielle, perhaps it has to do with her pregnancy.
  • It would be very hard to convince a man to try and kill the woman carrying his unborn child in defense of a strange island. The smoke monster is somehow possessing the bodies of Danielle's crewmates, as it might have been doing with Yemi's body moments before it killed Eko.
  • From what we've seen thusfar, the smoke monster only appears as dead people, not as people who are currently alive (due to however its mimicry functions). Perhaps those who crawled into the vent never came out, as Danielle waited and screamed for them. It seems much more reasonable/entertaining/creepy that they later all visited her one by one, each acting creepy and possessed. The fact that there were flies and an odor around the first two bodies on the beach hints that they did not just come to her one right after the other, but perhaps over the course of days. Often enough that she did not have time to bury each one.
      • The only trouble is that Jin also saw Robert.
  • I'm pretty sure the monster was Walt at some point, either with Locke when he was in the Dharma grave or to Shannon when she was in a beach hut with Sayid, and Walt is very much alive. So the only dead people point may be incorrect.
    • Walt appearing to Locke is more likely Jacob than the monster. Jacob or some manifestation of the island (Christian) speaks to Locke.
  • I vaguely recall in a podcast saying the monster was at some point Walt, perhaps when Locke was left for dead in the Dharma grave, not 100% sure though.
    • Walt was a manifestation of The Monster when he told Locke he had "work to do." Walt is alive, so this theory doesn't pan out.
  • But how could she kill a manifestation of the smoke monster? It's possible that the monster was using the forms of her crewmates to test Rousseau (as it used Yemi's form to test Eko), and her willingness to kill them was, for whatever reason, passing the test. This seems very likely, since it would have been extremely difficult for Rousseau to survive in the smoke monster's jungle for 16 years if the monster had not already decided to let her live.
  • There's some chance of Rousseau going crazy which results in mistrust and shooting her teammates. When Robert realizes that Rousseau is out of her mind, he tries to shoot her but his rifle fails. The facts to support this are that from what we saw before the monster can only project images of people while being unable to physically interact with other people (e.g. trying to shoot at them or being shot by them). Though we can not cross out the possibility of some kind of brainwash/mind posession by the monster.
  • Rousseau (based on her personality in the previous seasons) is a paranoid delusional who exhibits classic signs of Schizophrenia, based on these past episodes. There is nothing wrong with Robert or the others in the Expedition crew, there is no "sickness;" it's all in Rousseau's head.
  • Rousseau is the one who went crazy, Robert got 'enlightened' when he went down the CV, he saw something that made him understand why the monster has to protect the island (in a way making him see the same as the others, seeing protecting the island as important). Rousseau on the other hand went crazy (who knows why) and thus didn't believe him. She thought they were all 'sick', but they weren't. She yelled to Jin "you're sick too!" before firing at him, shes clearly lost a few marbles and has become the start of the paranoid, strange Rousseau we saw in 2003. As said above, the sickness is all in her head.
    • Why would Robert shoot the woman he loves and is carrying his baby? Especially given that he had managed to talk her out of shooting him. If he was indeed scared of her being nuts he would use her renewed trust in him to overpower her and cuff her hands or something, not kill her and their unborn baby! Also Robert knew about the monster being a "security mechanism" which is a little suspicious. And her erratic behavior during the previous seasons has more to do with living 16 years alone! Not only that but living in an island with a) the hostile others b) a monster c) guilt over killing her teammates and lover d) having her baby kidnapped. She wasn't crazy when killing her teammates.
      • Exactly. She wasn't totally insane to begin with. The later, crazier Danielle was a result of living alone on a 'haunted' island for years after having to kill all her friends, the man she loves, and losing her baby. You'd be crazy too.
      • There was also definitely something severely wrong with Robert. first, the way he talked about the smoke monster was NOT the way a normal, sane person who'd only been on the island a few weeks would talk about it. Second, he obviously held some serious malice for Danielle, and was trying to kill her. the look on his face when he went to shoot her wasn't sad reluctant acceptance of having to put down a rabid dog. it was malice. whatever was controlling Robert at that point wanted Danielle very, very dead.
      • I wonder it's as simple as something (perhaps the monster) coming up behind Danielle that we, Danielle, and Jin could not see. He raises his gun to protect Danielle, she doesn't see why, and in her confusion pulls the trigger.
        • I don't think the explanation can be that simple. Something had to happen to Robert, Brennan, et. al., that motivated her to secretly remove the firing pin from Robert's gun in advance of this scene.
        • You are over-analyzing if you think that Robert was shooting something else behind her. First of all why didn't it make any noise or show up after Robert was shot. Second, why would Robert risk the misunderstanding when he could just yell, "Danielle, behind you!" There are many flaws in this reasoning.
          • I watched that scene again last night, and retract my original supposition. i'll echo what someone else already said - the look on his face when she starts to put her gun down and look away is clearly menacing. Luckily for her she had already removed his firing pin!
        • You may have something there. Danielle mentions Montand losing his arm in the first season. If Montand died in the temple, that would have been the significant memory, but since she puts so much significance on him losing his arm, I think he survived the temple. Which means there were still for of them alive. There were two bodies on the beach and robert. So maybe the fourth person was coming up behind her and trying to kill her.
          • The fourth person alive is Brennan, he's the guy Rousseau mentioned in her distress call about having taken the keys but I do not believe the point above. For my mind, he clearly pointed the gun at Danielle and looked surprised it didn't fire. The chances are we won't see that scene again from another angle so I think it must be taken at face value. If there was a man behind her he would have been shown.
            • Brennan can't be alive, because both men on the beach have their arms in place. So neither of them is Montand. So obviously enough one of them is Brennan.

Charlotte (knowledge of the Island, previous conversations with Daniel etc)

Charlotte remembers a conversation with Faraday from the past as a kid. This happens because when John spins the donkey wheel it sends Juliet, Faraday, Jin, Miles and Sawyer to the past. This time however, time is no longer skipping. They are sent to the era of the Dharma Initiative. Think back to the first scene of the season with Daniel at the Orchid. During this time Daniel finds Charlotte as a kid and warns her not to return to the island because he doesn't want her to die in the future.

      • This sounds like the most plausible theory. Just before Locke turns the wheel, the island is obviously sometime before Dharma begins building the Orchid (and maybe sometime after 1954, although there is nothing specific to indicate this). This is shown by the well disappearing. If the idea that when Locke turns the wheel, he 'fixes' it, then the island stops skipping and stays in whatever time the island is already in. In this case, this is sometime before Dharma arrives. Thus, like mentioned above, when we see Faraday in the opening episode, it is because he is now stuck there, in that time, as well as everyone else. The real interesting question is when the O6 return, will they be returning to Island time (pre-Dharma), and if so, will they spend the rest of their lives on the island, and die before they end up crashing again?
  • If the group that was time-skipping remains in the "past," where are they when Oceanic 815 crashes? Not with the Others, surely. Either they will somehow return to the "present" after a long interval with Dharma or they have hidden somewhere - The Temple? - for years.
  • or eventually, they are returned to the present when the o6 return
  • How would you explain Faraday's appearance during the Dharma era? They must be in the past.
    • Faraday has been doing some time travel on the side.
  • Even though it'd be a little paradoxial and extremely pointless, Faraday will tell Charlotte to never return or else she'd die just because he knows for the sake of it he has to say it.
    • He's trying to save her life, despite not believing he can change fate. However her recollection implies he's a crazy old man--so this is his future fate, trying in vain to save her.
      • Because Charlotte tells him that he spoke to her when she was a child, he knows that despite the fact that he will not be able to save her, he must say it to her anyway as he knows the laws of time and knows that it MUST happen.
        • In Because You Left, when Faraday is trying to explain the time skipping to Sawyer and the group, he says that you cannot change what has happened, no matter how hard you try. He gives the impression that he has tried to change the past himself many times, and has never succeeded. This is also why he is so effusive with Desmond about him being miraculously special.
          • And Desmond is special because of the injections he gave himself during his time in the Swan.
            • Desmond is "uniquely, miraculously" special. Lots of people took the injections. Desmond is more likely special because he turned the failsafe key.
        • Charlotte says she thinks that the crazy man warning he not to come back was Daniel. She doesn't say it definitely was. So there's still room for it to be someone else - maybe Desmond? Daniel may realize this and, instead of trying to warn her himself, may ask Desmond to do it instead. If he can get Des to do it, then it will actually change things since Desmond is special.
  • When we see Faraday dressed as a DHARMA worker in Because You Left, he is trying to get to the wheel so that he can turn it and send them back to the "present."
    • Yes DING DING DING -When Locke fixed the wheel the time stopped around the start of the Dharma initiative (maybe during or slightly before). Faraday will then infiltrate the Orchid at some point (and talk to Chang and Charlotte). It may be that Daniel completely loses his grip on reality and respect for "the rules" after Charlotte died. He looked pretty distraught and we know he was screwed up in Essex on 9/22/04. These are indicators that maybe Daniel is about to "go Rogue." In this respect perhaps Daniel is responsible for the final shift (wheel turn) that will bring the island back to 2007/8 and that is why he was in the Orchid in "Because You Left." If not it appears he is at least about to go crazy (listen to Comic Con video- the spazy-ness in his voice while he carelessy throws around info about the future to Chang! Doesn't sound like a responsible physicist obeying the rules of time does it?
    • Or he's just there to seek out Charlotte and warn her not to come back.
    • Daniel is not an idiot. She JUST DIED telling him that he told her not to come back. So why would he then go to so much trouble to tell her something that she already knew, and died from anyways? Come on now, think for a second about this stuff.
      • Why would a little girl be in a dangerous construction site?
        • If Daniel is to warn Charlotte, then he needs to get close to her to give his warning. However, if he just stroles onto the Island, DHARMA's gonna think he's an Other/Hostile, and thus he'll be captured or killed. THUS, he has to pretend to be a fellow DHARMA member - meaning he has to do the assignments they give him (i.e., working at a construction site) to build up trust, AND THEN he can walk around freely so he can find and warn Charlotte. The reason he's at the Orchid in the past is merely for this reason.
  • In the first couple seasons, when children were abducted, Ben told Jack that the children were safe. It was hinted at that Jack just trusted Ben at the moment and not that Jack knew the whole story. The whole story is that the children were moved off to a separate place-perhaps the Temple-to be taken care of by the O6 who time-traveled back to the Dharma Initiative. The major reveal is that while Ben was rivals with the 815 survivors, he was also talking to and interacting with their future versions who time-traveled back to the DI, who were kept distantly separate for good reason.
    • A - That was in Because You Left, not in Jughead. B - Jack never asks Ben about the children in seasons 1 or 2 (because Ben didn't appear until season 3). He also never asked about them in seasons 3 or 4. The only person I can think of who ever asks about the kids is when Ana-Lucia asks Goodwin where the kids are, and he says "The children are fine."
      • Ben appeared in Season 2. Prisoner in the Swan, reason Michael became a baddie. He captured Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley.
        • Yes, maybe there was something to Jacob's list after all.
  • Perhaps by being shifted in time, the Leftbehinds will be able to remain on the Island without aging, as Richard Alpert does. So while they will apparently be the same age when the O6 return, they will have actually - objectively - spent more than 20 years there.

How did she know about the well? Who was her father?

  • My guess is that Ben is her father and Annie is her mother.
    • Ben tried to shoot and kill Charlotte in Season 4 while he was captured by Locke. Then he said who she is, when she was born etc. He seemed to know everything about her and he would not try to kill her if she was his daughter.
    • When Charlotte was babbling, I thought I heard her say something to the effect of "Why can't Annie come with us?"
        • I think you'll find she said "Why can't DADDY come with us?", which makes sense as she said that she and her mother had to leave her father behind.
      • She's saying "why can't daddy come with us?"
    • Possible, the timelines don't really conflict.
  • I believe Charles WIdmore is her father. Charlotte is a name given when you name a girl after Charles. Charles Widmore was on the island in mid-50s as we saw in Jughead. Based on Charlotte's age of being at least 30, Widmore could have been on the island until the late 70s and fathered a child there.
  • I guess Horace Goodspeed is her father - he was a leading member of the DI and she also looks quite similar to him!

Charlotte is Annie, her name was changed when her mother fled the island. Her mother was Olivia and her father was Horace.

    • So how is she 29 ("Charlotte Staples Lewis, born 1979..."), and not in her 40s/50s??
      • Actually, she'd be 25 or 26. It was early 2005 when the island started skipping.
      • Why would she be in her 40s or 50s, the DI was there in the '70s. We don't know when The Purge took place, but it could very well have been the early to mid 80s or even later.
        • Horace tells Locke in 'Cabin Fever' that he's "been dead for 12 years." That was about late Dec of '04/early Jan of '05 which would put the Purge to '92 or '93. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
        • Ben appears to be a teenager when the purge takes place. He does not yet have a job. That would place it in the early 80s. Charlotte would be 5 years old in 1984. Ben would be roughly 20--not old enough to be her father.
          • What are you talking about??? Ben very clearly is in at least his 30s when the purge happens (evidenced not only by Ben's obvious age, but by his fathers nearly white hair), and is working as a Work Man just like his old man. You're like the third person to pull it out of their ass that been was a teenager. Are you all watching a different show than us?
            • RIGHT ON, I'll repeat in case you get deleted like it says below; anyone who thinks Ben was a teenager either can't add (likely, actually) or needs to watch "Man Behind the Curtain" again. Ben was clearly about 30. It was (seemingly) early 1970's when Ben arrived at about 10-12years old. Assume 1993 (purge) and about 20 year do the math.
            • Your language and tone are unnecessary and inappropriate to a forum about a television show. Disagree if you want to, or refute a theory with evidence. But if you can't be civil, your posts will be removed by the moderators.
          • The purge happened in 1992. Ben was approximately 30 by this point. This doesn't mean (and I don't believe) that Ben is Charlotte's father, since he would have then had to father her when he was a teenager.
  • Ellie might be Charlotte's mother. She seemed quite interested in Daniel's relationship with her.
    • Unlikely. If Ellie and Eloise Hawking are the same person wouldn't she be too old to be Charlotte's mother? Nearly 50 when Charlotte was born... possibly her grandmother?
    • Not likely, as long as Ellie is Eloise Hawking. Ellie would be a nickname for Eloise. If this is all true, that would make Charlotte Daniel's sister. Daniel tells Ellie that she reminds him of someone he used to know. She replies, "Someone other than the woman you just professed your love to? Well, aren't you the Romeo." Daniel then says, "Far from it, believe me," most likely because she is his mother. Unless, of course, there is an Oedipus complex.
      • You guys take the Romeo comment way too seriously; it's totally irrelevant.
      • The romeo reference is because Daniel left behind that girl in Oxford when everything went wrong with his experiments. The loving thing to do would have been for him to stay and look after her. Instead he ran away to america. Hence not romeo like.
        • It isn't certain that Daniel did run away to America. That's just what Theresa's sister said, perhaps because that's what she was told. It's possible Daniel was himself traveling in time, or doing something that would lead him to the state he was in with the caretaker when he first saw Oceanic 815's plane recovered on TV.
  • she was the first to get the nose bleeds, the first of this group to die. Miles was next with a nose bleed. He will die next if the skipping doesn't stop, though as he hasn't shown other symptoms (headaches, dizziness) yet, it might be a while off. But this does point to Miles also having grown up on the Island.
    • Is it all to do with children who are now adults?
  • When Charlotte is babbling about random stuff during her in and out of consciousness, she mentions her sister marrying an American named Danny? and How her mother won't like this.
    • Charlotte's sister is Teresa the girl in the time coma, Daniel Faraday being the American, Danny. Eloise is both of the women's mother, Faraday was trying to say find my mother-in-law to Desmond. Charlotte would not have met her sister's fiance´ because she was busy globetrotting for research.
    • Why do some people keep saying that Daniel told Des to "find my mother in law"? From my recollection, he says "I need you to find my mother, her name is......" as he was cut off by the jump. He did not say "I need you to find my mother-in-law, her name is....". Daniel clearly says mother, not mother in law.
      • When Daniel spoke to Desmond, he was cut off by the flash as he said "Mother...;" however he later explained to Charlotte that he had told Desmond to find his mother." Period.
      • DOt dot dot - wait you're wrong and the original post (one above) is right; last words out of Faraday's mouth during the flash were, "I need you to go to Oxford...go there and find my mother...her name IS!..." Exclamation Point!
      • Seems to me Daniel's accent is fairly British not american, furthermore Eloise seems to be his mother, and she has a strong British accent; Teresa was not married to Daniel, and Charlotte speaks about marriage so I suppose we can rule out that Danny is Daniel
        • Faraday has nothing approaching a British accent.
          • Agreed. has this person even listened to Faraday speak? he's obviously American. Which doesn't count out Hawking being his mother; if he were raised in the states, or perhaps by someone other than his mother, he wouldn't have an accent. Accents aren't genetic.
            • Ms. Hawking is located in LA. Daniel could have been raised there. Then went to Oxford because it was his mother's country of origin.
  • I don't think Charlotte was talking about Sun when she said "Don't let them bring her back here...this place is death." I think she was talking about herself. She was coming out of a childhood memory where Faraday or someone told her never to come back. Who ever told her that probably told her "this place is death." Charlotte interpreted this to mean that she will die. Also, it is very likely that the past conversation took place in Korean or in close proximity to a Korean convorsation and that is why Charlotte spoke first in Korean. We only assume she was speaking to Jin and talking about Sun because she was speaking his language. She might have not even realized when and where she was.
    • If this is the case, could the remark "won't like you marrying an American named Danny" be something someone else said to her. Perhaps - bizzarely - someone will save Charlotte from her present condition and they will marry after all this crazy non-sense. It might be wishful thinking, but it appears that they are going to focusing a lot on Daniel's attempts to save her and it is hard to see where else that story-line could go.
    • Good point. Those words might be the exact ones Daniel said to kid Charlotte or even better to her mother given the 3rd person use
      • That's why her mother acted like the island didn't exist.
  • How does Charlotte know Korean? How does Jin know Charlotte speaks his language?
  • The same way Shannon knew French; she learned it somewhere. People learn multiple languages. It's not that significant.
    • She smiled when she heard Sun and Jin talking in "Something nice back home". Jin realised she understood Korean and confronted her about it.
      • Charlotte could know Korean for any number of reasons. it doesn't mean she was raised by any kind of ethnic group. in fact, if she were raised by Pierre Chang and he taught her to speak, she wouldn't have a British accent most likely, especially not one as pronounced as hers.
      • Point; she's an anthropologist, and could have easily picked up Korean during her studies, or travels.
        • She knows several languages. When we first saw her at the dig in Tunisia the woman with her asked, "How many languages do you have to read that in before you believe it?"
    • She knows korean because she is Pierre Chang's daughter. She is the baby we see in the first scene of Because You Left.
      • Highly unlikely as Chinese people can't have ginger children. Miles is blatantly the candidate for Chang's son.
        • Chinese and Korean are different peoples!
        • That is not Fact, Ancient China did have people with Ginger hair and I myself am Chinese with half my beard being Ginger.
          • Yes... Ancient chinese secret! :-)
      • Exactly. She is an adopted child and she's never known her father. This also explains why she babbles in Korean - she spoke this language in her childhood.
        • Or, she's flashing back to her Korean language class from high school, or a previous trip to Korea.
  • Charlotte grew up on the island like she said, but when she dies the time traveling does not stop. Daniel travels back in time and finds Charlotte in the DI. He tells her never to come back in a desperate attempt to save her life, but most likely scares her like she said
    • She lived on the island as a child. Not the same as growing up there. She left early enough that she half-believed her mother that it was imagined.
  • Daniel Faraday will be stuck in the past with the Dharma Initiative once the time skipping stops, and have to live out some part of his life there. He will have a child with a Dharma or "Hostile/Other" woman - and the child will turn out to be Charlotte. That is why he loves her.
    • After rewatching Episode 1/2 again. I believe that the baby Candle/Wickmund/Haliwax had was Charlotte. The facts that support this, she speaks fluent Korean, she had to leave her Dad behind (Obviously a high ranking Dharma official) and Candle/Wickmund/Haliwax's wife spoken pretty fluent English also.
      • Maybe this should be posted under a Faraday heading but I believe when they show Daniel watching the footage of Oceanic 815 being recovered and he starts to cry, that is himself remembering that he was already on the Island in the past, and either feared what was coming or remembered feeling of loss of Charlotte. He replies to his caretaker after she questions why he's upset "I don't know."
        • This also shadows the ideals behind Richard's Object test. Daniel may be the real chosen one, even though we don't know this. Charlotte also said a "Crazy Old Man" told her never to return and scared her. Could Daniel, Son of Ellie + Charlies, be Jacob?

Does anyone else think that what happened to Theresa and Charlotte is the same thing? It's a bit of a shot in the dark, but considering the fact Charlotte was babbling on about random things in her life (as though she was travelling through time) and Theresa kinda had that blank stare that Charlotte had afterwards, I suppose it could make sense.

Ben not supposed to turn the Wheel

  • Ben did it in order to face Widmore and try to solv once for all their dispute. The fact that not all the O6 were with Ms.Hawking might in fact hint at future time travel windows to the island, and I guess Ben will not depart with them before he convinces the others and solve the 'fight' with Widmore
    • After Widmore changed the rules, Ben decided to change the rules as well, turning the wheel when he shouldn't have.
    • Ben was never Jacob's "choice," but he believes that he is. Turning the Wheel is another attempt by Ben to be something he is not, rather than what he was...a pawn.
      • You've got this backwards. Locke is the pawn in all of this; Jacob wanted Locke to turn the wheel, and get shunted off the island forever. BEN was supposed to stay and remain leader of the others. Basic miscommunication caused this to basically go backwards; Locke says "WE need to move the island", Ben assumes that since Jacob is talking to Locke now, the order is meant for Ben as a 'pink slip' so to speak, when in reality, Jacob wanted/needed Ben as leader all along-- that's why he has to go back to the island, even though he claimed he'd never be able to. He realizes now how things were supposed to go, after speaking to Locke. And Jacob could never clear up his orders for Ben because Ben was too bitter and jealous of Locke to actually enter the cabin, which is the only place Jacob can directly communicate.
        • This would mean Locke's entire function was basically to turn the wheel, and go away forever. Kind of sucks for him if you look at it that way; he really got used by the island/Jacob.
          • If you think of it, this just might be the case. With Locke permanently talking about destiny and during his whole life he was a loser, a pawn. He met his father only to get used by him. Maybe that's the reason he got to the island and regained his walking ability - to get used again, this time for the sake of the island. Being pawn, getting used - that just might be Locke's destiny. Kinda sad but true.
          • This is also assuming that Ben was being honest about the person turning the wheel being banished from the island forever. I'm not sure when we started believing everything he said as gospel. Ben may have intentionally mislead Locke towards an end which we are not totally aware of at this point.
          • Ben is not supposed to be the leader of the Others. Christian/Jacob asked when has listening to Ben ever turned out good. Additionally, he must have lied about the one who turns the wheel not being able to return. Locke was supposed to turn the wheel. But he also HAS to return the island.
            • Locke has to return to the island as a corpse, because he can't willingly go back there, as he was the one who was supposed to turn the Wheel and be banished. Ben can travel back because he was never supposed to leave in the first place. Christian/Jacob was referring specifically to Locke. every time John listens to Ben, it leads to some kind of terrible unpleasantness, but Ben is damn near exactly what the Others need in a leader. he's cunning, manipulative, and always has some kind of world-class scheme going on.
  • When Locke sees the wheel, it seems to be loose and moving back and forth (at least much looser than when Ben pushed the wheel). Perhaps the flashes are due to the wheel being loose.
  • Perhaps the Wheel was so difficult for Ben because he wasn't supposed to use it. In doing so, he caused a failure which only the actual "chosen one" could correct.
    • Or, maybe this has more to do with Ben being a fairly scrawny and relatively weak looking person, compared to the much larger/taller, outdoorsman Locke, who, even with a compound fracture in one of his legs, seemed to have an easier time moving the wheel than Ben. Locke chose his path early on, that being physicality, and in the end, that was the only use the island found for him: a beast of burden to turn the wheel.
  • HE didn't turn the wheel, just pop it back on its axis.
    • It sure looked like the wheel was turned, what with the... rotation, and all. even if it was just part of putting it back on the axis properly.
  • Now that we know that Ben wasn't supposed to turn the wheel, then what does he mean by "I hope your happy now Jacob." This might have been payback to Jacob because Ben lost his daughter and got the spinal tumor.
    • Given that Jacob said to Locke "Help Me," there seems to be some kind of tension in the relationship between Jacob and Ben.
      • When Locke first went to Jacob's Cabin, he thought Ben was talking to an empty chair. He may have caught a glimpse of a face in shadow, but didn't really see him. When he met 'Jacob' later it was Dr Shepard, though Locke doesn't know that. All Locke knows is that this man speaks for Jacob. But Ben was speaking direct to Jacob. Somehow (if he was a fake leader) he was able to learn about the Island and have an awareness of Jacob. Perhaps in doing so, he 'limited' Jacob.
  • Ben seemed very upset that he was the one who had to turn the wheel. He was on the verge of tears as he was doing it- and he was alone in the chamber with no one to pretend for. That, combined with the fact that Ben's primary focus has always been his control of the island, leads me to believe that he wouldn't con his way off the island and leave Locke in charge.
  • Locke never told Ben that it was Christian, not Jacob, who told him to move the island. Perhaps Ben assumed that the order came from Jacob, and whatever personal knowledge he has of Jacob led him to the conclusion that Jacob wanted him to move it himself. We have no reason to beleive that Ben has any knowledge of Christian, or his relationship with Jacob, at all.
  • Ben turned the wheel to avoid being captured from Widmore. Since the hatch implosion the island was visible (or has been visible enough to have Charles Widmore and Penny Widmore know its coordinates) If Ben let Locke move the island, he'll still be on the island, without the O6, and with an unaware Locke/Bentham in the outside world (not knowing he was supposed to bring the O6 back). He moved the island knowing he had that mission to accomplish anyways, and also knowing that his presence in the outside world was needed for his own personal agenda (revenge on Widmore/killing Penny)
  • Did Ben turn the wheel incorrectly and intentionally knock the wheel off axis so that it would need to be reset and also knowingly creating the time skipping flashes and putting everyone on the island in peril? The danger is responsible for forcing the O6 to return to the island, perhaps his ultimate goal.
    • I was debating why Ben would steal the job of turning the wheel from Locke... first I thought it so he could knock the wheel off axis, create the skipping, and force the O6 to return. Had Locke done it, then Locke would be the banished or die (sacrificed) and Ben could happly remain to be the Leader, but perhaps Ben didn't create the time skips intentionally and he didn't knock the wheel off axis... if that also happened when Locke (or whomever) turned the wheel and Ben stayed on the island, then Ben would have probably gotten the sickness and have been the first to die after only a few skips and long before Charlotte. So he turned the wheel not to purposely create the bad skipping as I first suspected, but to avoid the skipping himself and survive!
  • You guys are all speculating way too much. Go back and watch Cabin Fever. When Locke emerges from the cabin, and Ben asks what he was told, Locke replies "He wants us to move the island." We never actually see Christian tell Locke this, as it takes place off camera. But now we know he specifically said "You have to move it." Christian said this to mean specifically Locke ("You") but Locke heard it as "Us" or plural "You" as in "You guys need to move the island." So when he came outside he simply said "He wants US to move the island", Ben simply assumed "Oh well I'm the only one here who even knows what that means so I guess I'm the one who is supposed to do it." Ben had no secret or alternative motive here. He was simply doing what he thought he was supposed to do because of the way Locke interpreted Christian's words in the cabin.
    • I like this a lot. Just a misunderstanding. More evidence for this is that we know the creators like to re-visit certain items for clarification. Like when Locke "talked" to the smoke monster and reported that it told him "You're next." At that point viewers didn't know if the monster said to Locke "You are next" and the interpretation was very general to any or all of the survivors or if the monster said "Pablo and his girlfriend are next," and the threat was specific to only those two particular listeners. This is the same deal.
  • I think it's a misunderstanding, and will make for another great Ben/Locke "Odd Couple" moment when Ben goes to see Locke of the island: "So he told YOU to move the island, John? You, specifcally? You know, you could have saved us all a lot of hassle if you had made that a little more clear from the start."
    • Given Ben's history, it makes a lot more sense to assume that he has an alternative motive in everything he does.
      • Yes Ben does have a lot of alternative motives, but in this case I think its pretty cut and dry. Locke said "He wants US to move the island" and so Ben did it. I don't think Ben could have known in any way that Jacob wanted Locke specifically to move it himself. He was busy sitting outside the cabin eating a candy bar with Hurley.
  • Because Ben's never been in possession of surprising/unusual information before? He always has a plan, remember.
    • Interesting how Locke often gets other people to carry out his work. He sends Boone to investigate the plane on the cliff. He has Sawyer kill his father, Cooper. He lets Ben move the island. For these last two, Locke was specifically told to perform an action which he allowed someone else to carry out.
  • Ben moved the Wheel to save himself. If Locke had turned the wheel, Ben would have been the first to die in the time flashes, as he had been on the island longer than Charlotte. However, this might not necessarily be the case, as the time flashes may have never occurred if Locke had turned the wheel.
    • You gotta take into consideration the fact that flashes probably began BECAUSE it was Ben and not Locke turning the wheel, so your statement doesn't make much sense to me.
    • Ben assumed it was his job to turn the wheel because, first off, he knew what that meant, and Locke didn't-- nor did he have it explained to him by Jacob. Ben had a myriad of reasons to think that Jacob was done with him and it was time for him to go quietly into the night; the spinal tumor, the freighter being allowed to get close to the island, Alex dying, Juliette leaving him, and so on. The island wasn't taking care of him anymore, which made him think it had no use for him.
  • I think that Ben turned the wheel clockwise and Locke did it the other way. When Ben tried to move the wheel it seemed stuck (thus the island was steady in time) and it was cold (so Ben wore that jacket). When Locke moved the wheel it was loose and there was no hint that it was cold. Maybe that the wheel was "frozen" indicates the normal time continuum and now that it was unfrozen the time jumps started. Also we haven't seen till now any jumps to the future. That might mean that the relevant time for the ones that were left behind in the island can only move back, to time periods that already have occurred. Maybe the different way that Ben and Locke turned the wheel will determine the time jumps.
    • If you watch closely, Ben and Locke turn the wheel the same way. Ben pushes it, Locke pulls it (probably because he has an open fracture on his right leg and can't get leverage easily...), but it goes clockwise both times. As for it being "frozen" when Ben finds it and "unfrozen" when Locke finds it, that probably has something to do with recent usage. We don't know who used the wheel last before Ben, but we do know Ben chipped the ice away and used it just before Locke. It stands to reason that the time skips don't affect the wheel room, otherwise the wheel wouldn't have been skipping from when Ben used it. It would have reverted to a time before Ben, when it was frozen and dormant, rendering moot the reason why the time skips were occurring in the first place.

The Monster

  • When it grabbed Montand, it seemed to reach out at him with two arms on each of his legs.. which suggests the Monster has human-like features.
  • If you go back and watch the monster kill Eko, you'll see that he has him grasped in a very human-looking fist.
  • Maybe in the future, the monster gets malfunctioned and uses a lot more to take out its victims. In this episode it was less violent and dragged with two hands as if to not want to cause any trouble but would use force if necessary(pulls off dudes arm) instead of one massive hand.
    • Nah, the monster had also attempted such a "less forceful way to take out its victims" during the losties time (I think it was season 1 or 2): It had drawn Locke into a hole like that, but Locke was saved by Jack (don't remember if there were other losties helping). Locke was way disappointed at being "saved", at the time he thought the monster was a beautiful light.
      • There has to be some significance to the people that it chooses to drag and take underground. The monster has no problem killing Nadine but tries to take Montand, just as it had no problem killing the pilot, Eko, etc, but tries to take Locke.
  • Was the Monster guarding the Temple? Did Ben send the Others there knowing that the Monster would defend the area from everyone else?
    • The temple might have been its original purpose on the island.
    • I think this is an important distinction, and not enough is being made of it. Danielle calls the monster a security system for the island, but Robert says The Temple specifically.
      • Not disputing any theories here, but if I was protecting somewhere (the Temple), I wouldn't drag somebody towards it. But then again, if the monster lives in the Cerberus vent then it's not such a bad idea. Meh.
  • The Monster seems significantly different in this episode. It makes fewer noises and at times sounds very organic. It also goes higher than it is usually capable, as shown by the characters looking up to try to see it and Nadine's body falling from the sky. This may mean that the Monster has yet to "Malfunction" at this time period.
    • The Monster didn't seem to go high at all, it just threw Nadine into the air. it did the same thing with the Pilot, who was flung up into the upper branches of a very tall tree by the monster.
  • Yeah and it had a brownish color to it instead of being pure black and it "breathed" on that dude who lost his arm.
    • Nah. It was as black as always. And it had raised high many times before: when killing the pilot, when he met Eko, when he met Locke, when he killed Eko, etc.
  • If I recall correctly, the producer have said that the monster's noises are always at least slightly different with each appearance. It seems that the monster "absorbs the sounds that it is exposed to and mimmicks or repeats them. This is a "younger" monster than what we've seen so far, so it hasn't developed the "vocals" that we're used to.
    • Could you find a source for this? It sounds interesting, but I haven't heard any mention of it.
  • I agree to this because when the monster attacked in this episode, it sounds a lot more like the industrial revolution (less technology sounds) in 1988 instead of sounding like a receipt machine in 2004 which also suggests that as civilization advances in technology, so will the monster but in more interesting ways.
    • Not true, if you go back to early episodes where the monster appears, especially the one where it drags Locke into the CV, you can clearly hear the mechanical sounds as opposed to the ticker tape sounds. When its dragging Locke across the ground it makes the same sound as when its pulling Montand across the ground. It appears that the ticker tape sound is made more when its "analyzing" people.
      • The monster makes different sounds at different times which might be confusing people. It makes a sort of ultrasonic keening when it's approaching, the receipt-machine sound when nearby, and then it makes the roller-coaster/chain sound when its dragging someone. If you watch the episode where it dragged Locke towards the vent, it made exactly the same chain sound as it did here.
  • I heard the same noises as 2004, including the "receipt machine" sound.
    • I always thought it sounded like a roller coaster as you're going up the first hill.
  • I possibly remember from the season 1 DVD extras that it's the noise of a New York taxicab meter. --Emissary23 06:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, I remember from one random podcast once that the producers confirmed that it was the sound of a taxicab, and were amazed that any of the fans actually put the two together. Sorry guys, can't remember which one!
      • That seems to fit with their overall sound design: grocery store scanner beeping for the 108 clock, atmospheric music performed on airplane wreckage, etc. I too noticed a great difference in the monster of this episode from seasons 1-4. Might I also mention, it's been a loooooong time since we've seen the thing, and it was thrilling for me to see it back.
        • It hasn't been that long, the monster just killed a mercenary from the Kahana, late in season 4.
  • The monster absorbs something from every being it kills, and has accrued a great deal of negativity over the past 16 years.
  • I think so too. When Eko sees the monster the first time, you can actually see (if you freeze frame) a whole bunch of different pictures of people flashing through the smoke.
  • The effect on Danielle's crew seems to be along the lines of a 'body-snatchers' type situation; The monster can 'take over' the mind of a person once it's dragged them under the temple.
    • Exactly. I believe it happens this way too. And so the screams for help of Montand was also made up by the monster as a bait for the rest of the team.
      • More likely the monster is just a monster and there is something else underground/inside the temple that causes them to be influenced or controlled in some way. I think that if the Monster specifically had the ability to control people we would have seen it a long time ago, but this is the first time we've seen someone taken into a CV/into the Temple, etc
  • That makes a lot of since, but also Christan might have snatched them like he did with Claire and convinced them to kill Rousseau for an unknown reason. Christan might be the one hanging out with the Monster in that hole. (I am referring to Jacob)
  • Except that in 1988, Christian was back in LA, alive, married to Jack's mother, and practicing medicine. He doesn't appear to have assumed a supernatural role on the island until after his death (and resurrection).
  • Do you guys remember the blastdoor map, it's written on it that there are 4 Cerberus Vent, so we mights have seen more than just the monster each time, maybe they all have different "fonctions", one just observing (like with Locke in season 1, and the first time it looks at Eko and flashes through his memory), another killing people, another dragging them, anyway, we gotta consider there is more than one monster.

Daniel flipping through time - when??

  • Since John just stabilized the island and there's not going to be time flipping anymore, how does Daniel go back and talk to young Charlotte and show up in the Orchid dig walking past Marvin Candle? He couldn't have told Charlotte when he disappeared for an hour or two as he wouldn't have known she was going to die, and he wouldn't have been surprised when she told him that he was the one to tell her when she was younger not to return to the island. So somehow Daniel starts time flipping again - maybe he has his mom's abilities in mastering time? I'm starting to think that Daniel is just like Richard, in that he doesn't age and he is timeless and can move freely through time, just like his mom.
    • Locke stabilizing the time wheel doesn't necessarily mean those on the Island have been dropped back in the present. It only means the time skips have stopped (if that). They could be any when, now stuck there indefinitely. This would explain Daniel having time to infiltrate the Dharma Initiative as a work-man at the Orchid, where he bumps into Chang. It would also explain his desire to investigate what's behind the rock beneath the Orchid further, as the time skips stopped when Locke disappeared down the well.
    • Locke stabilizes the Island, but at some time way back. He becomes Jacob (he has already shown he will adopt a different name for obscurity - Jeremy Bentham).
  • Who said that John stabalized the island and that there isn't going to be anymore flipping through time? All we know for sure is that John got off the island. If he fixed the time problem, then there wouldn't be much of a need for the O6 to go back, which would really deflate all the drama they've been building up for the last two seasons.
    • Exactly. Nobody said that John would stabilise the Island, IIRC the time skips are supposed to stop when everyone gets returned to the Island.
      • It makes no sense that the sole reason for John to go down the well is to get off the Island. Clearly Ben has been leaving the Island without going down to the wheel, or else he wouldn't have needed to cram all the metal in the Orchid Chamber to blast a hole in the rock to get to the wheel. John needed to put the wheel back on its axis, thus stabilizing time so that Hawking can find the Island.
    • It definitely seems that the island was jumping around because the wheel was shifting back and forth. The source of the time disturbances were coming from the well based on the scene where John was going down it. The wheel was bouncing around and appeared to be giving off time-sparks, that's why I think this.
  • If the time skips have stopped and those left behind are stuck in the DHARMA era, this would also explain Daniel's probable presence at the filming of the DHARMA Booth Video filming, as well as his motivation for working with Pierre Chang and frustration that "this is useless," realizing that time cannot be altered and that Charlotte will still die.
  • Well, we know the O6 have to come back to set things right, so getting Locke off the Island just allows for that to happen (he convinces them). Likely, they are stuck in the past, but the O6 returning will somehow allow them entry BACK to the right year. When the well disappeared, was the Orchid station present in the background?
  • It all comes down to Desmond. The O6 will come back and maybe somehow everything will be stabilized, but as Daniel knows, it will all just happen as it did, and they can't change anything or fix anything related to all the deaths and the sad things that have happened. But Desmond, who may not have to come back, since he wasn't one of the 815ers to start with and wasn't on the Island at all the day Ben turned the wheel, can change things, because he's uniquely and miraculously special... It will all come down to him coming back, not because he has to, but because he knows he can change things in ways none of the 06 can, and he's willing to do it to save his friends.
  • If the time skips stabilize when the O6 return, it must be at some point in the past. Voice on the Numbers transmission heard by the French crew sounds like someone we know, my guess is Hurley.
    • I thought it sounded like Daniel, myself.

Daniel Faraday is Charlotte's Father

  • Okay, this maybe far fetched, but could Dan be Charlotte's dad?
    • She saw him as an old man
      • Writers said old man to emphasize that he time traveled back to tell her that. A young girl would think Faraday was an old man. And she said scary old man. When Faraday is freaking out he looks/acts very scary.
    • He very much wanted her off the island
    • He knew as an old man that she was going to die (from seeing it as a young man)
    • She never met her dad
      • I don't remember this. I thought she said she never saw him again after she left the island.
    • Her mom was from England (that's where Dan was from)
    • Dan is jumping through time
    • He never kisses her on the lips - only the forehead, like a dad does to his daughter
      • But if he is her father would he actually know? That is even more far-fetched (no indication whatsoever that he knew) but if he didn't know then he wouldn't be avoid kissing her on the lips. More likely it just never happened.
    • Counter-evidence: They don't look much alike.
    • C-e: He would have shipped her off the island as soon as possible to erase any possibility of her remembering it and wanting to return - she was on the island until she was six of seven.
    • C-e: Why would Charlotte remember a scary man, who is her father, and not remember that he is her father? Thinking "I can't remember my father" and "scary man was you" at the same time you'd think something would click in her memory.

The Frozen Wheel

  • The Island was skipping through time because the wheel has slipped off its axis.
    • This matches the "turntable" metaphor Daniel used to explain what happened to the Island.
  • Unlike most inanimate objects on the island (not being touched by a time traveler), the wheel seems to shift through time. Or perhaps, the event of time shifting temporarily knocks the wheel off its axis until the wheel self-corrects (or is realigned by an outside force) which in turn causes another time shift.
    • It is not shifting through time - it is so old that is would always appear to be there.
      • In addition to just being old, maybe the time skips have a finite number of years between which they can move (basically between when the power of the room is harnessed by the Wheel and when the power of the room is expended or the room/means to move the island is somehow destroyed).
        • Is there a connection between the Numbers and the time skips?
  • As Locke is going down the well, there is a shift and the well disappears, but the FDW chamber is still there? If we assume that was a shift to the past, then the well hasn't been dug yet. Therefore, there is another way to get to the chamber.
    • The well doesn't disappear; it's just been filled in, or tumbled in on itself.
  • I don't think so because the ruins around the well aren't there either and they are huge stones. They would be visible for centuries or even millenia.
  • Also, Locke looks up after the flash and the ceiling of the FDW chamber is shown clearly. There is no sign of a filled in or covered up well shaft, just carved rock like the rest of the chamber. I think we're supposed to conclude that the FDW was there before the well was dug.
    • It seems pretty certain, given the scene with Faraday and Chang, that the Wheel is there well before DHARMA was.
      • It very well could be that they are there in the "pre-Dharma" era where early Dharma scouts have knocked over/filled in the well but before The Orchid was built.
  • Ben unintentionally and unknowingly knocked the frozen donkey wheel off its axis because he mistakenly thought he was meant to move the Island, when only Locke could successfully do so.
    • Ben has always seemed to do things intentionally and knocking the wheel off axis and creating the time skipping putting everyone in peril on purpose for his own personal desires (or perhaps the greater good) is something he is capable of doing.
  • The wheel moves the island in space. because it was taking constant uncontrolled shifts back and forth, and because space and time are inexorably linked, this was causing it to bounce around temporally as well. Now that the wheel has been stabilized, the island will stop jumping in time and space. the reason everyone needs to go back to the island, is because they never should have left, especially Ben, who should still be the leader of the others. if he had sent Locke to turn the wheel, like he was supposed to, everything would've turned out differently, and the O6 would still be on the island. because Jacob's orders got messed up, now there's a massive course-correction taking place in bringing back the O6 to ensure the stability of the timeline; but this isn't the key to stopping the time-shifts, the Wheel was.
  • When Lock turns the wheel, the chamber/wheel is no longer frozen. The reason they froze it is because, like the C4 on the boat, if it's unstable and set to go off, the way to stabilize it is to freeze it. When Locke turned the wheel he got off the Island, but he didn't get the wheel back on its axle, so it's still unstable. When Daniel is seen in the Orchid during Dharma time, he's carrying what looks like an oxygen tank. But what if it's actually liquid nitrogen - to freeze the area so he can safely drill through to the wheel?
    • The wheel is frozen when Locke reaches it, but not AS frozen as later on. the idea that it was intentionally frozen by the DI to keep it from acting up isn't terribly credible. the Wheel isn't comparable to the C-4 on the boat; the reason freezing the batteries worked was chemical. I doubt the island's ability to travel through time and space is all strictly due to a chemical reaction.
  • It seems more likely that the Wheel is frozen because whatever the wheel is manipulating absorbs a great deal of heat normally. it only seemed to start giving off light when the wheel was turned, and then 'skipping'; it probably only began giving off heat to melt the ice when the wheel was first turned as this was when it also began giving off light.
  • Good idea. maybe that might be the reason for it being soo cold in the frozen wheel room.
    • For the real reason why this room is frozen, read brief history of time by Stephen Hawking. It explains an awful lot about wormholes, time travel, negative energy and the ridiculously cold conditions required to make such things possible.
    • There is a logical reason why the FDW room is not frozen when John enters, it has been exposed to the exotic radiation mentioned in DI films. Radiation always projects some form of heat. And as I understand the laws of thermodynamics, there is no radiation that makes something colder. Although a magnetic bottle could be generated that isolates a region from a heat source or radiation (as is done in fusion and antimatter research and how the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun's deadly effects). So, the temperature of the FDW room could be related to magnetism and to how the exotic radiation producing the time skipping is contained.
    • The wheel and the rest of the room are very obviously still frozen. Look at the picture - There are icicles and such.
FDW Green Flash

One of the green flashes, showing icicles on the walls of the chamber

    • The wheel is frozen to prevent ANY movements in time. If you think about it, when the wheel

was out of it's axis it was moving forward-backward in years. Perhaps if you move a wheel even a little causes time travel, in matter of minutes, or seconds, so it needs to be frozen so that it can't move at all.

  • It seems unlikely that the wheel could be causing Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest of their group to be skipping through time, as the wheel has an effect on the whole island, not just them. If it really was the wheel, then they would not be the only ones jumping.
  • When Christian is talking to Locke, he clearly tells him to go give the wheel a little push, and Locke proceeds to yank and pull on the wheel until it finally seems to rest properly in place, I think Locke pulling on the wheel causes something else to go wrong, possibly why he wasn't able to convince all the O6 to go back. (Locke really doesn't know how to listen)
  • The chamber is still there even though there's no way in after the well disappears, because the chamber wasn't dug out manually, but is the result of some kind of matter-exchange; the apparatus containing the Wheel and the empty space surrounding it was teleported there by some unknown force, and an equal amount of solid earth was exchanged to the wheel's former location. At least, that was the idea i got from the way the inside of the chamber looked.
  • Turning the wheel makes the island move through time. Anyone who's inside a certain radius at the time the is turn, moves through time along with the island. The thing is, when that happens, it creates a new timeline, an alternative reality. Ben's concern is that it could break the space-time continuum. In order to avoid that, what happened after the wheel was turn must be undone. That means getting everyone that left back to the island and then, using the wheel, move the island back to present time. But if the o6 where off the wheel's effect radius, why they have to come back? That's because they happened to be inside the radius a previous time the wheel was turn: when the hatch imploded. Imputing the numbers in the computer kept the island from moving through time.
    • We can't just say "inside the radius are affected" because, well, it's not accurate. The Others are not moving around as evidenced by Ethan / Richard / the camp / the Other's camp appearing and disappearing.

Locke's injury

  • Okay, first of all: Ow! Secondly, When Ben turned the wheel in Season 4 he appeared in Tunisia with his injured arm. However, he was not supposed to be turning the wheel. Was this punishment for Ben turning it? Meaning Locke will appear in a somewhat civilized part of the world with his leg whole again?
    • The most likely scenario is that all movers end up in Tunisia. Ben AND a polar bear ended up there (though there is no proof that the polar bear turned the wheel, it seems to be the most likely option.)
      • No proof... but it si sfriggin cold down there and it normally takes a lot of strength to turn the wheel. Hmm.. what is strong enough to turn a wheel and totally cool with freezing temperatures....
    • I believe Ben was injured in his fight with Keamy, right?
      • Ben's arm was injured when he fell down the icy ladder that led to the wheel.

I had an epiphany last night of symbolism when Locke was injured and his conversation with Christan Shepherd. When Shepherd made the comment about knowing the meaning of sacrifice to John and then how John made his way with his battered body to the wheel, it was so symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice and his journey to the cross. Then I started thinking about Jacob and how in the Bible, the House of Jacob refers to the nation and people of Israel. Then I started thinking about how it is prophesied in the bible about the Israelites returning to their homeland (which is the House of Jacob) when Armageddon takes place and Jesus returns. This just all fits with what's going with the O6 trying to get back to the island. John Locke sacrificing his life and being restored (probably will happen). It's just really cool how all of this is coming together from the spiritual perspective.

  • This goes very well with my theory that Richard, Jacob, and the Island are a represenation of the Trinity. Hopefully this show isn't just an allegory for Christian tradition, though, and that our theories are mere coincidence. Richard_Alpert/Theories#Reference_to_Christian_Tradition
    • This also serves to explain why Christian says he can't help Locke. In literature a common theme is that angels come to help people, but that people themselves must take the actions required of them. Christian has special powers - it should be within his capability to turn a wheel - but a flesh and blood living human needs to be the one who restores the balance.
  • Interesting also that the next episode is called 316. John [Locke] 3[:]16? John_3:16
        • The name Christian Shepard seems very appropriate in this context - he is guiding John, as there are things John must do as a flesh and blood man that makes his actions significant, whereas actions by Christian or Jacob have no meaning, or they are unable to act in that way.
          • If we look at the original meaning of the word "christ", the early Greek meaning translates as "one who is anointed" [2], so a "christian" could be describes as one who follows/believes/helps the anointed. So Christian Shepard is a person who guides the believers.
  • Another Christian (religion, not the character) theme might be the request for a sacrifice to prove faith - Was it Abraham who was asked to sacrifice his son as a display of his faith in God? But at the last moment, when it was clear that he had the intention to folllow through with the sacrifice, God steps in and the son doesn't actually have to die? Analogizing here, maybe this is the ultimate test of faith - Locke is the personification of faith in Lost, after all. He attests to his faith in the island by sacrificing himself. But by doing so, he proves himself and is made immortal or something like it - he attains the Richard Alpert state of not aging, maybe.
    • Yes, it is Abraham who is commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac (father of Jacob/Israel). And Desmond actually specifically references that story when he is a monk.
    • This could also explain how Alpert turns into some kind of immortal or ageless being. In the first episode of this season, he appears to be an ordinary human. Somewhere along the way he transforms into something greater. Perhaps he underwent the test sometime in the past - saving the island by sacrificing himself.
      • I also just thought of the temple that the monster is protecting. There is also the biblical connection of the temple being rebuilt when the nation of Israel/House of Jacob is restored. This is cool stuff!
  • Maybe Locke's death was caused by infection from his broken leg, which wasn't treated properly.
    • How would this be faked to look like a hanging? I just hope Locke doesn't become paralyzed/wheelchair bound again. Poor Locke!
    • Since when did they say he hung himself? They said it was suicide, but it probably wasn't.

I believe Locke and Ben team up to get the O6 back to the island and that Ben kills Locke (with Locke's permission) to fulfill Richard's requirement and so that he can return to the island. Right before Ben kills Locke, Locke will give Ben Jin's ring and explains to Ben why he has it so that Ben can get Sun back to the island (since Locke promissed Jin he wouldn't). Is that breaking the promise anyway though or is it a loophole?

        • "Hey, could you kill me" said Locke, looking all 'sacrifice of the Island' kinda smug. "What!?" confusingly replied Ben. "Richard. He said I have to die." Locke explained cheerily. "Okay, sure." Ben whips out a syringe, containing a mysterious green liquid (which happens to the be "REAL MONSTER!!" by the way). "Oh, oh, wait... Give this to Sun, it's proof of Jin's death." Locke hastily remembered. "FOR TEH ISLAND!" Ben screams, running at Locke with a lethal injection in hand... Sorry, that's how your theory played out in my head.
  • It is Locke's destiny to be paralyzed. His multiple leg injuries are "course corrections." It is like when Charlie was destined to die, but Desmond kept saving him. Except this time, it is the island that keeps healing Locke. When Locke leaves the island, he will lose use of his legs somehow... and die... maybe???
    • Locke wasn't paralyzed. He fractured one leg. He was plainly standing up and limping on the other leg, so no - the island didn't exactly put him back in a wheelchair... just on crutches.

The Orchid Well

  • anyone have any ideas on when it was built, what it was for, or why it was there than wasn't? If it wasn't there during Dharma then either Dharma built it after they arrived (unlikely) or someone built it long ago -like maybe the four-toed, same who use the hieroglyphics. Then someone (else, maybe) buried it to hide it from Dharma. My reasoning that it wasn't there for Dharma is that it raises the question why excavate in another place when there is this nice well that leads right to the wheel!
    • And I'll say right now that this raises many questions about Charlotte and which society her parents were a part of - Hostiles/Dharma/something else as yet unrevealed? How else could she know about the well when even Dharma didn't seem to know? I've read other theories that suggest Charlotte has been on the island thousand(s) of years ago; I'm not sure of the mechanism for this travel but it does jive with the Narnia allusion - story where the children leave for a short time in England but centuries in Narnia.
  • I also like the theory that the rope Sawyer held and brought through time was noticed by a later group who investigated and eventually dug a well there - nice little paradox inside the bigger paradox that is the LOST island.
    • While it is possible that Dharma noticed a rope and started excavating, they did not construct the well. That giant construction project going down in the beginning of the season was not a simple well construction. And besides that, there might be some rubble and such, but not solid rock like what they were trying to drill through.
  • The well, as illustrated, is a dry well. It has a certain rustic quality that was not apparent in the DHARMA structures. The rope arrangement is not guaranteed to have any other purpose other than lowering people. We never saw a bucket attached to the rope. Therefore, the well was dug by the Others long before DHARMA ever arrived. When the Others saw DHARMA come ashore, they covered the well to conceal it. DHARMA found it using advanced imaging techniques but did not try to open it. Instead, they began construction of a station called the Orchid which had a hidden purpose underground. For DHARMA, that meant putting in an elevator down to the research level. That tells us that the Orchid as we first saw it in "This Place Is Death" was after Chang was shown the problem and some undetermined future date. It was probably well after because of its dilapidated condition. During the flash, we jumped backward to a time before the beginning of construction at the Orchid.

Drinking water from a spring near the wheel of time caused people like Richard (we don't have any proof that he's the only one) to never become old. Also: if a Wheel skipping makes time skipping and if a Wheel turning makes the Island (or the Time) moving, what would a Frozen Wheel do? Making time stand still? So the the wheel is The Wheel of Time.

  • The well was definitely NOT meant for drinking from, it was a point of entry. this is evident from the unusual construction; the rope is very heavy, as is the pulley. the wooden support is huge, and the well itself seemed to have a platform almost that stuck out into it that Locke stood on before descending. the whole thing's design points to being used to bring people (or, heavy objects which aren't very wide) up and down, and nothing suggests it was ever a source of water.
  • The Wheel does not turn normally as time moves. When Ben first saw it, it was stationary. As for the properties of a frozen wheel over a normal wheel, how is this even a discussion point?!
    • This are theories, not discussions. Now: Jacob/Shepard told Locke to MOVE the Island, and it was made MOVING a FROZEN Wheel, causing TIME SKIPPING 'cause the wheel, as we saw, was SKIPPING.
      • regarding the wheel being stationary when Ben first say it - it may be that it moves all the time, just extremely slowly. When Ben first shoves it with the crowbar, it seems to go clunk like it was disengaging, and then he moves it. Like an analogue wristwatch, you need to pull out the winder first to be able to move the hands.
        • If you listen to your own theory your saying that the wheel moved very slowly with time. Well, that means that when Locke saw the wheel rocking back and forth and jumping around that time should have been shifting 1000's of years nonstop, until the wheel went back to its 'really really slow' speed. Ya. I don't think so..
      • I know this is a theory page, so why end your 'theory' with two questions. That sounds like a discussion to me.
        • I like the idea that drinking from the well by the orchid could cause one to never become old, that would make the well, The Legendary Fountain Of Youth!
  • I think I see where you're going with this, but the wheel would represent the special time-traveling nature of the island. a stationary wheel does not move anywhere, the island remains and time proceeds as normal. A skipping wheel causes the island to skip through time in a seemingly random fashion. the only advantage to the wheel being frozen would be to prevent it from moving easily.
  • Dharma might have sealed off the well to contain the energy within the island, so the hostiles couldnt have access to it. When they did seal it however the oringinal purpose of the well was to "vent" the island's energy. Since this vent was shut, it would build up and the Swan station was responceible for discharging that buildup. Another reason it was contained was to be able to transfer it to the orchid station for experiments.
    • So they sealed up the well and then did imaging to re-excavate it and acted like they had no idea what was down there? No friggin way.
  • Perhaps the flash that left Sawyer holding a rope to nowhere sent them to a time before the well was dug. So then later when people come along and find a rope sticking out of the ground, they dig down to figure out why it's there and the rope is the reason the well is dug in the first place.
  • This would also be a nice bit of irony... dig a well to accomodate a rope rather than use a rope to accomodate a well.
  • Just like the station above it is only an entrance to the wheel chamber, maybe the well is used for the same purpose and the wheel chamber is much older than the well that sits on top of it.
    • The station above was not the entrance to the wheel chamber but the entrance to the actual Orchid station which was used for time travel experiments.
  • On another note i found it interesting that Locke said "Goodbye" to Sawyer, yet he said "I'll see you soon" to Miles.Does this mean that Locke knows about Miles being able to talk to the dead. Am i right in thinking this happend?
    • don't misquote the show and then try to make a theory about it. There is enough crackpot stuff on here with out blatantly making stuff up.
    • Locke said "goodbye" to Sawyer, Juliet and Miles in turn; then he said, "I'll see you when I get back" to everyone.
      • My guess is Locke will come back in a 'Shephard' type of way. When was the last time a body dead for a while crashed onto the island? When Jack was taking Shephards body on the plane. Locke will be resurrected in a similar way to Shephard upon returning to the island and he will be guiding the survivors in the final season as Shephard has done.

The Wheel Ben turned and the Wheel Locke turned are not necessarily the same Wheel...or might be different sides of the same Wheel. The area looks different, there are different features, and it was amazingly cold for Ben while it seemed somewhat warm for Locke.

  • THIS is an interesting idea. what if it's not even the same wheel, but two connected 'gears' in a machine, that could be several feet apart?
  • The wheel was still frozen when Locke was there, however, though it was considerably less frozen than when Ben got there.
  • The wheel may not have been frozen because locke turned the wheel along time in the past, before dharma froze the wheel to stop time shifts.
    • I think the idea that it was the other side has some merit, Locke pulled on the wheel while Ben pushed it and both seem to have worked.
      • Nah, same place. Ben was pushing the spokes while standing behind of one of them and Locke was pulling them while standing in front of one of them. Obviously in both cases there is strong light/energy coming from the other side, wouldn't be another chamber.
  • You want a mind boggling question. The wheel is man made! who put it there? Locke turned the wheel clearly before dharma froze it so it may have been a very long time before dharma. So who was there to build it and put it there knowing its capabilities and taking into consideration techonologies level of development around when dharma started!
    • How they hell did you come to the conclusion that Dharma froze the wheel? It moved because it was UNSTUCK. UNSTUCK is the OPPOSITE of STUCK. This isn't some crazy revelation, this is common sense. Besides that, the entire room was frozen.
    • that's nice, what if it was around the time the four toed statue was built?

There are icicles on the walls, but the wheel itself is not frozen into place.

    • How about people from the future going deep back in past and building that wheel. But once building it they have it in history like forever, so when they are born in their current timeline the wheel is already there, they just figure out what it is and go back to build it. May sound weird but i can't think of any other theory that would explain the wheel other than it was there like forever and represents the essense of time and was created by some godlike powers.
      • You must have forgotten the part where time can't be changed. Its sort of been established several times already.
  • Remember that the DI did recognize the properties of the chamber because the built the Orchid around it. In the end of season 4 we saw Ben and Locke downstairs in the Orchid station in which the video "explains" how it works. Somehow they managed to control or canalize the power of this time travel properties and they were using them. (Maybe turning the wheel a just a little bit? haha). But then again i believe that the DI were not remotely aware of what was going on in the island, and they were sort of exploting its resources but not in a proper way. That is what caused the hostiles to turn against them and eventually lead Ben to organize the purge.
    • They were simply using a chamber next to the wheel. They never dug all the way to the wheel - only the explosion from their time machine thingy caused the hole to open up to the wheel. The established VERY CLEARLY in this seasons opener that Chang has no intention of drilling any further.

Jin running into Sawyer, Locke, etc...

In this scene, Jin is running through the jungle in 1988, the light flashes (and he jumps to some other time), he falls down off a small ledge, when he stands up, its like Sawyer was already there and holds the gun to him. How come Sawyer, Locke, et al didn't see Jin running through the jungle right in front of them when they were in 1988 too? We have seen that they all move through time but not through space on the island. When the light flashes, they are always in the same point in space on the island, but they are simply in a different time. So this means that when Jin was running through the jungle avoid gunshots from Rosseau, that Sawyer, Locke and everyone else would have been RIGHT THERE too in 1988 right before they flashed. How come they didn't say anything about gunshots or seem to even see Jin before the flash running right near them? And how come Miles specifically said "Where did this guy come from?" As if he was saying "This guy seemed to appear out of nowhere..." ?? Is this a continuity error? Jin obviously did not 'appear' out of thin air in front of them.

  • I am just going to guess that Losties hear gunshots (danielle going nuts) as they are walking around, and they are curious to check it out. As they are approaching the firings theres a blinding light, they cant see well. Jin is at this point running away from the shots, he gets blinded, cant see well. They do the time warp again, and by the time they can see clearly again they are at the same point. I am happy enough with that explanation and I think its reasonable enough.
Sawyer did hear the gun shots firing because he had his gun prepared but he couldn't make out Jin because of the flashes
Did anyone else find it really annoying that Jin didn't once mention the fact he bumped into Danielle and her crew? I know he would have been surprised by the fact Sun was alive and off the island, but you'd think he mention it in passing, either to Charlotte or in basic English.
The fact that we did not see it does not mean he did not do it.
  • The question is - if the Left behinds are all travelling the same with the time skips, then they would have seen Jin regardless of the time period. If this is not true, then the Left Behinds are are skipping differently when not in a group together. So Locke's and Jin's skips have been different time periods than the main group of Juliet/Sawyer/Charlotte/Daniel/Miles. This is also why the group back the camp (Bernard and Rose, etc if they are still laive) are no longer around.
    • This clashes with the Sawyer/Juliet/Locke incident. After the beach attack by the Others, Sawyer and Juliet made off into the jungle and were caught by Widmore & co. No time skip in between. Suddenly Locke appears and saves them. If they were traveling through separate time skips when not in a group, Locke would not have been around to save them.
  • I am a proponent of the idea that the Lostbehinds are all skipping together, BUT if they aren't, I believe a reasonable explanation would be that the skips through time are due to rapid movements through space, and being in a different location leads to a different relative change in space, and thus a different relative change in time.
  • Or, maybe they're all just jumping to where they 'need' to go. if Jinn hadn't jumped to a point in time when Danielle's people were approaching the island he would've eventually drowned. The other Lostbehinds were actually jumping to different times when this happened, but nothing significant happened.

The Return Of The O6

Didn't Christian say that LOCKE needs to bring his people back? NOT BEN!! We've played this game before, it dosnt work. Locke is finally with it in the real world and hes going to bring them back...just like he is told to. We also know that he does NOT go visit ben, and that it is Ben who visit's Locke. The purpose of the visit; murder. Ben's jealousy makes HIM want to bring them all back, himself. This will cause drama and give us a reason for season 6.

  • This explains Sayid's half-sarcastic remark that they "said" it was suicide and his unwillingness to trust Ben.
  • But following the thinking of your own theory, since Locke is dead in present time off the Island (2007) and Ben's attempting to collect the 06 then, the fact Locke was supposed to bring them back means Ben will fail. Therefore the 06 won't be able to return to the Island....??
    • Either--
      • It wont work (and they cant go back), which was what i had originally thought. (I had thought that they never go back, and that when 815 eventually crashes again in the future (relatively speaking of course), they just dont ever leave.)
      • Ben does bring them back, but it messes something up because Locke should have. Now that they are back, something is going crazy and is the focus of season 6. Maybe now they all need to get off the island (like before that bomb goes off!!)
        • Locke has already spoken to everyone but Sun. Unsuccessfully apparently, before his death. Jack doesn't begin to think he should return until he sees the death notice, and seeks out Kate. We don't know when Charlie's ghost contacting Hurley occurs relative to John Locke's appearance off island.
      • Or Ben is working on the behalf of Locke, and his rounding up of people is ok with the island.
        • This is probably it. Christian scolded Locke for not doing what had been assigned to him. Yet when Locke said that he would have to die, Christian didn't say, No, you can't die because then Ben will have to do your job. He just said that that was sacrifice.
  • Christian said to bring back "everyone who left." This might include Ben, Frank, Walt... maybe Widmore. Maybe even Ji Yeon.
    • Counter-theory: Everyone who left at the time of the jump must return. Meaning the O6 (plus Ji Yeon as scientifically she was a living person who left and science seems to have a lot to do with this), Desmond, and Frank. Plus the wheel turners - Ben and John. Either Ben lied about he who moves the island can never return or these are extremely special circumstances that he didn't predict. But no Walt or Widmore.
      • Ben was turning the wheel on his own choice according to Christian, we can assume he lied to Locke about not being able to return. And scientifically Jy Yeon was a developing foetus. She was maybe a living person in religious terms, not scientific.
        • Actually there is no evidence that Jin and Sun's view of Ji Yeon as their baby (a person) has any religious motivation, or that Jin and Sun have any religion at all. Sun simply sees the scientific evidence of there being a baby (person) though seeing her on the ultrasound (fetus means nothing more or less than a baby pre-birth). Ultrasound shows legs, arms, head, heartbeat, etc. so clearly this is not a blob of unformed tissue or a frog but her (and yay Jin's too!) baby. Religious arguments over when a soul comes into being are unnecessary and beside the point here - some people don't believe in souls at all but they still believe in people. If it looks like a baby and acts like a baby and grows like a baby, in accordance with logic, it can be considered a baby. Whether or not Ji Yeong has to return to the Island remains up in the air because we don't know whether the rules apply the same to persons unborn as to persons born. But it is entirely consistent and contextually correct to just refer to the pre-born as babies - practically every pregnant character on Lost refers to her baby as a baby before they are actually born. And Juliet's primary job as an other was to figure out why the mothers are dying and why babies conceived on the island don't survive while those conceived off the island do. So let's go with it - it makes a much more interesting story than if we try to write them off as non-persons.
          • Ben was turning the wheel due to a misunderstanding. He can return to the island because he was never meant to leave in the first place; Locke can't return because he was initially supposed to turn the wheel and be banished. The Island still needs Ben for something.
            • That doesn't explain why he was crying while he turned the wheel.
              • Because he obviously didn't know that he whole thing was a misunderstanding and genuinely believed that he has to move the island and never go back.
  • Ben needs to bring Locke's dead body back in order to reclaim leadership, just as Locke had to bring Anthony Cooper's body back to the Others after having him killed.
  • When the losties first crash on the island with CS in a coffin, they were putted there in order to correct some other time travel mistakes that happened before. This is why all of them are related or have a special connection with each other. They all had to "go back" to put the pieces back into place.
  • Ben was not supposed to turn the wheel so he can come back, on the other hand Locke HAS to bring the returning ones left but he can not come back, that's why he had to die. He can not come back to island alive, but he has to bring his people back. That's why Benjamin is dragging a dead body all along. It would be extremely silly for a person like Ben to carry a dead body all over if it's not meant for something

The French Expedition

  • The team wasn't well-armed for what they were, as they only had a few civilian model hunting rifles; it's common for expeditions to pack said firearms as a precautionary measure, in spite of Sayid thinking it was unusual.
  • Jin may be responsible for Montand losing his arm. Robert was holding onto Montand as the Monster was pulling him into a Ceberus Vent. But both Robert and Montand would have been dragged into the hole had Jin not grabbed Robert's legs and used the Temple as a stopper. Then the Monster got a better grip on Montand and thus, his arm was ripped off. In the long term it did not matter. As of the end of "This Place Is Death," Montand's fate is unknown.
  • On the balance, Jin saved Danielle (and Alex) from whatever happened to the men in the expedition by telling her not to down into the hole.

Hurley speaking the numbers?

  • Am I the only one who thought that when you hear the numbers through the radio at the start of the episode, it sounds a LOT like Hurley talking?
    • It wouldn't surprise me, but it would mean that Leonard gets the numbers from Hurley who got the numbers from Leonard...
      • Like Locke/Richard's compass?
  • And the well-rope apparently.
  • No, you're not the only one. it sounds like Hurley, but in a very resigned, kind of depressed tone that we don't hear out of him often. Would suit if he ended up returning to the island back in DHARMA days and through a cruel twist of fate, had to read the 'cursed' numbers for the recording, or risk blowing his cover.
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