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Perhaps this should be a disambiguation page leading to one page in which the time shifts are listed in the order we see them on the show - the way the occur to Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Rose and Bernard, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte and the zodiac, the compass, etc. And a second page in which the events are listed in the order they are happening to Alpert, Widmore, Ethan, Desmond, the compass, the hatch, the church, the beach camp, Yemi and the beechcraft, etc. - the way in which the time shifts chronologically occur in time. I think both pages will be very helpful in the near future. 23:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

2001

Why must the first and third shifts happen in 2001 or later? Couldn't they have been any time prior to the crash, even in the nineties or eighties? Flashsideways 02:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  • The third shift has to occur after 2001, because that's when Desmond arrived on the Island. The first shift was placed there as well because Locke sees the beechcraft engine still smoking from the crash in the third shift, which would indicate that the third shift happened shortly after the first shift. Therefore, both shifts must occur after 2001, because that's when Desmond came to the Island. Crash815 02:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
  • BOONE: "He's a priest. How long do you think he's been dead?" LOCKE: "Normally clothing would completely decompose within 2 years, but this is high quality polyester—could be 2 years, could be 10."("Deus Ex Machina") Do you think this is accurately saying that the plane crashed somewhere between 2 and 10 years before the crash, ie. between 1994-2002? Therefore since we also know Desmond is on the Island, could we say the plane crashed 2001-2002?JamesyWamesy 02:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The second shift

"Follow the Leader" confirms this shift occurred in the show's present time, now early 2008.

Someone said that Yemi's body was in the beechcraft, but there's also the problem of the people at the beach. If it was after the crash and before Ben turned the wheel, at any point, pretty much, then they would see themselves at the beach, which is the reason the third shift was changed to before the crash. Maybe the second shift was after the wheel was turned (so Dec 31, or later). The fact that Yemi's body is inside could just be an error. Crash815 06:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, there were spiderwebs/cobwebs all over the beechcraft, suggesting it had been quite some time, and it was after the wheel was turned because Richard and Locke discuss that, and Richard says that the O6 have already left and are home.Leavingentropia 18:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm going to go ahead and change the date for that one to 30 December 2004 or later. Crash815 18:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't think that's correct. We should trust the PTB. I would put the second shift between November 27 (when the hatch imploded) and December 2 (when Eko discovered Yemi's body missing). What Richard said to Locke has nothing to do what time they are in. --Makiwolf 07:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Given the previous arguments (cobwebs, people on the beach, Richard), I'm more inclined to believe that it's after December 30. The only reason for believing it's before December 2 is Yemi's body in the plane. Well, Yemi's body disappeared mysteriously, so it could've just as easily reappeared mysteriously. --Celebok 07:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Don't forget that the beach camp where everyone was staying was the second one, moved to in 1x12. It's possible that this was between the crash and the moving, so conceivably, Rose, Bernard, et al could've existed on the island at both times without seeing each other.
    • That's a good point, but as someone said, Richard said the wheel had been turned and he knew that Jack, Kate, Aaron, etc were safely off the Island. That would mean it has to be after the wheel was turned. Crash815 17:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Richard Alpert's knowledge of John Locke's impending death but lack of information regarding Locke's success in returning the Oceanic Six to the Island suggests a date following Jeremy Bentham's death but prior to the return of the Oceanic Six, roughly late 2007 - early 2008.
    • I was just thinking Richard was being prophetic, but this makes more sense. We could place the second shift as "After April 2007" (if we take the date of the obituary as canon).
      • The date of the obituary is not canon. Part of it have turned out to be canon (i.e. the name being Jeremy Bentham and the cause of death being suicide) but it'd be better to put the date as late 2007/early 2008. --Crash815 17:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
        • Yes, the obituary content shouldn't be considered canon. It's just filler text apart from the name. The hotel name is definitely wrong, the date is probably wrong, and the rest of the details are nonsense. I do like placing this after Bentham's death, though, based on Richard's knowledge. --Sfoskett 14:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Place

i think that all the time jumping timeline should go under pre crash, because these events are happening before the crash. So what the do in the time jumps had always happened, and are predetermined

  • Many of them are not happening before the crash. Some of them have even taken place after the Oceanic Six left the Island.

The third shift

Shouldn't the third shift be happening at some point between September 22nd and October 7, when Locke and Boone discover the Swan station? You would think Kelvin would open the hatch door if the flash took place before the crash. Also, Desmond asks Daniel if he is his -- Desmond's -- replacement. Wouldn't he say "are you our replacement" if Kelvin was still alive?

  • We don't have enough evidence to say that this is after Kelvin's death, so I think we should leave it as it is. Crash815 22:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Despite the blooper of it being on the wrong leg, we do know it was after Desmond's suit was ripped. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
  • But it's obvious that Kelvin is still alive because Desmond would not be waering the hazmat suit.(Remember Kelvin is the one who unknowingly made Desmond belive he did not need the suit and that infact there never was any sickness).Saying are you MY replacment?, is probly just a small blooper.

The First/Third Shifts

If Locke sees the Beechcraft crash in the First Shift(Late 1990s), why is the starboard engine of the Beechcraft still smoking during the Third Shift(Between 2001 and 22 September 2004)?--LFPinNJ 03:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

That could mean that the third shift happens shortly after the first shift (at least long enough for Ethan to leave). We chose late 1990s for the first shift, but what evidence is there that the beechcraft didn't crash in 2001? Crash815 05:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
None.The first shift should be 2001-2004 like the third, since Desmond is already on the Island. Ampts 19:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree. If there's no evidence that the beechcraft didn't crash in 2001, we should edit the date of the first shift. I'll do that.--Fran Bicho 12:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why we are assuming Desmond was on the island when the beechcraft crashed. None of the survivors saw him or the un-imploded hatch until the third jump. Also I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the beechcraft crashed in the 1990s. I mean, if it crashed in 2001, that means Eko's life as a fake priest only lasted for three years, which I suppose is plausible.
The enginge was still smoking (-> plane just crashed) during the third shift in wich we saw Desmond. Ampts 20:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
That was an error. It lasted less than a tenth of a second and is only a detail. The guys editing put back the exact same shot as the first time shift because they didn't have another exact one without the smoke coming out or something similar. The bodies have been decomposing for a decade or so, and not only 3-5 years (I'm talking here about the actual corpses, not the clothes). Therefore, it's the 1990s, not 2000ish.- TheAma1 15:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
How do you know it was an error? Locke said (in 1x19) that the bodies are between 2 and 10 years old, would would make the 2001 scenario possible. Until you find evidence that it took place in the 90s there's no reason to not put it as between 2001 and 2004. --Taxmonkey 14:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
No reason?? are you serious weve given many reasons. If we put before 2004 than we are covering your time period of 2001-2004 so until we are abosolutely sure that it happened between 2001 and 04 than we should just put before 2004 than we cover all posibilities.- Czygan84 21:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
In that case why not go all the way and say between 1990 and 2002? Also, Locke said the clothes were between 2-10 years of decomposition, not the bodies, which have obviously been there for more than 1 month! - TheAma1 19:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Bottom line there is no proof other than a production error that the shift occured after 2001 so you can't say 2001-2004 until you know for shure.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Czygan84 (talkcontribs) .
Yes you can, because Desmond is on the island in the 3rd shift (That proves that the 3rd shift is after 2001) and the beechcraft crashes in the 1st (That proves that the 1st shift is between 1994-2002). And the beechcraft is smoking in the 3rd shift. (That proves that the 3rd shift is right after the 1st and that proves that the 1st and 3rd shift is after 2001 and before the crash). So please stop edit the 1st shift's title to "Before 22 September 2004".  Rasmus Ni  Talk  Contributions  23:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
How do you know the beechcraft crashed before 2002?jw--Czygan84 19:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I think it comes from Locke's estimation that the clothes on Goldie had been degrading for between 2-10 years.--Baker1000 19:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Czygan, see the quote i posted under 2001 above. JamesyWamesy 05:48, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks i was jw my bad on the above--Czygan84 23:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This Page is not needed

I have noticed most, if not all of the events on this page have been added to the correct chronological spots throughout the pre crash and post crash timelines. This makes sense since these are events that always took place in these times. So I think this page is not necessary. For shifts that take place in the future we can just create a 2005 page that goes after december 2004. That will make much more sense, and this page just confuses things, especially if/when the time travel stops.Mattfarley1008 23:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

  • This page though collects them all in one page for ease of viewing.--WTRiker 00:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • We need somewhere to collect them all in one place so that a veiwer can say "oh, when does that flash take place, I'll look on Lostpedia" and come to this page. If we got rid of this page, they wouldn't know where to look, either in pre-crash, post-crash or post-O6 rescue. The only reason they're added into the main timeline (once we establish exactly when they occur) is so that we have an accurate chronological timeline. This page should stay.--Baker1000 00:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
    • While I agree it is good to have all of the time shifts together on one page for reference, I don't think it should be included within the main timeline. Maybe just move all of the info on the page onto the Time Flashes page or something. It just doesnt make sense to have it in the actual timeline, because if someone is going through and reading the whole timeline from precrash to post island, they are going to be seeing this information twice, which is confusing.Mattfarley1008 01:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
      • The way I see it, this page is actually a timeline in itself. It's a timeline of the people who are skipping through time, while the rest of the timeline is of the people who are not skipping. So it's a timeline within the overall timeline.--Baker1000 01:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • KeepThe page is needed to keep the time jumps in reference with each other. It's basically 2 timelines happening at the same time according to 2 POVs.--JamesyWamesy 02:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • KEEP. 08:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's necessary to have a overview about all time-shifts.--Airwaver 12:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep for above reasons --Crash815 14:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep: For my reasons stated above. Also this is a timeline for Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, etc and therefore should be under the "Timeline:" articles.--Baker1000 14:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Agree with everyone else, we need to keep track of these events, I think its wrong to simply include them in the time travel order only, 1988, 2001 etc. it should get its own timeline. I think we should remove information for stuff like Sawyer sees Claire and Kate in season 1 timeline, and only list it here, it shouldn't be there, its just confusing and to note it twice here and where it happens during season 1 etc. episodes is too confusing. All the flashes should remain here. Buffyannesummers23 16:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
    • (KEEP) I disagree, whoever you are, that this page should be maintained from a linear perspective (ie: 1954 before 1988). I think that having this page in the order of the flashes, which is from Locke and company's perspective, is better. It's easier to figure out what episode's Island events took place at what time, and in what order. We also should leave things like Sawyer witnessing the birth of Aaron because it gives a short synopsis of the actions and the things that happen to the characters left on the island this season. --  SacValleyDweller    talk    contribs   22:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep This is the timeline that several prominent characters are experiencing. It is extremely useful to see the events that the people left on the island are experiencing after the turning of the wheel, and listing them in the order that the main characters experience those events is helpful, even if that order is not chronological in the wider scope of the entire show. Triptolemus 23:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep as above ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 00:25, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge There's a similar timeline on the time flash entry--Dawgmatic 04:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
  • That one was created after this one, and it makes more sense to have it here. The information from that one should be moved here and a redirect made. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 12:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
    • We don't need a timeline on the time flash article, just put a link to this page. Something like "For a full timeline of these events see: Timeline:Time shifts".--Baker1000 12:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I agree, Keep. Merge time flash content into this article.. The Timeline's should all stay together within Timeline:NAME HERE. The time flash article should not contain the timeline, but information about the flashes, then link to the timeline article here. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  02:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge completed What do you all think of this? JamesyWamesy 05:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Remove all of the template boxes. We don't use those on the rest of the timeline, it looks seriously out of place on this timeline page. Just revert the edit, it was fine how it was, nothing new needed to be added. I know it's a "merge" but there was nothing else that was on the time flash article that could be used on this page. It's more confusing with these on the page anyway. Sorry to the person who created the templates for the time flash page, but they're not needed. So please change it back to the old format.--Baker1000 14:10, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Each time flash is a separate and self-contained event. The events of one time flash have little to do with the previous flash, other than the physical location where they happen. The sectionboxes allow us to organize the events of the flash into a simple format with a photo of each flash, similar to the mission section boxes. --Dawgmatic 15:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
        • We aren't documenting them as flashes as far as I'm concerned, we're documenting them as a timeline of the characters involved. We should follow the format of other timeline pages, there was nothing at all wrong with the way we were doing it.--Baker1000 16:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Ok, I reverted my edit, but I kept all the source coding in case anyone else disagrees and likes it. Anyone besides Baker1000 and Dawgmatic have an opinion on shifts&oldid=525083 the merge? JamesyWamesy 19:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
        • The section boxes were hard to read and digest, as the formatting distracted from their content. The format as of now (outline and no fancy formatting) is beautiful and makes it easier to comprehend what events happened in what ep, and vice versa. --  SacValleyDweller    talk    contribs   07:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The Fourteenth Shift

If the Well is ancient like the Ruins/Temple etc this scene would be the earliest event we have seen chronologically since the Well hasn't been excavated yet. Hugo815 23:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Or has been destroyed and covered. Until the show doesn't say, we can't tell anything. --Comfortably.Floyd 23:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I thought it had been covered over too. The bottom of the shaft is still built when Locke falls through. But with no visible signs of any of the stone structure above ground I don't know for sure if it is after the Well is built.--Baker1000 00:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I think it was pre-well construction. When Locke looks up there is a natural rock ceiling over him, and the walls have no cut stones. As Locke fell you could see cut stone all the way down.(Poundguy 04:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC))
        • I completely disagree. If it's pre-well then who installed the wheel? How did they get there to install it?

Eighth Shift

Who decided that this shift takes place in on Jan 20th, 1989? The assumption that the pillar of smoke is the one which Rousseau saw on the night they took Alex is not enough. That pillar of smoke looked like it was from her own camp fire (probably a signal fire), so can someone link me to some evidence that this is indeed the pillar of smoke she saw the night the Others stole Alex?--Baker1000 00:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"This timeframe is confirmed as Jin sees the pillar of smoke upon leaving the area of the temple. Rousseau claimed in Exodus Part 1 that she had seen the pillar 1 week after Alex was born. Taking Rousseau at face value that she and her science team crashed on the Island 3 days out of Tahiti and that they left Tahiti on Novmember 15, 1988, then they landed on the Island November 18, 1988. Further accepting that Alex was abducted exactly 1 week after being born and that Rousseau is exactly 7 months pregnant when they land and that Alex is born in exactly 9 months (and there is no reason not conclude any of these things) then this would place the date 9 weeks after the science team's arrival on the Island or, January 20, 1989."

Said by... Well, I don't know. It was posted on the Eight Shift section. --Comfortably.Floyd 00:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

That's pure assumption that the pillar of smoke is the same one she mentioned in "Exodus, Part 1." It can't be the same, she is still pregnant at that time and had only just killed her team. I agree that it could take place in early 1989, since Rousseau said this in "Numbers": "It was weeks before we found the radio tower." Then she killed her team and changed the transmission 3 days before Alex was born. Therefore it can't be the same pillar of smoke. I'll remove it if no one can provide me with evidence that it is the same smoke she saw when they snatched Alex.--Baker1000 00:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I agreed with you from the beginning. I was just moving comments here so not be accussed of deleting things =P. --Comfortably.Floyd 00:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I know. I wasn't accusing you, I was stating my case for why it's not the same pillar of smoke. :)--Baker1000 00:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Way to much assumption, first off we have no proof she was exactly seven months preagnant you hear people say how long they have been preegnant in months all the time you never hear seven months 12 days so 7 months is probably a generalization. Second off in most cases children arent born exactly 9 months after conception so we have no clue on Alex's exact birthdate.--Czygan84 01:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
That's the way I saw it. Too much guess work and assumption. Stick to the facts guys!--Baker1000 01:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't Danielle still pregnant when she shot Robert? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I think she was. That means the eighth shift could have occurred any time in November-January (maybe even February if she gave birth real late). Therefore putting "After November 1988" isn't accurate, but could be "After November 18" or "November 1988 to January 1989" Another thing is, Alex's Lostpedia page used to say she was born 1988 and now January 1989. Has that been said so, or is that an assumption and she could have been born anytime between November and February? JamesyWamesy 03:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe that is an assumption also. I agree that the 8th flash takes place at the end of 1988 or early 1989. After she shot her team she changed the message on the radio tower, 3 days later he gave birth to Alex, then a week later she was snatched.--Baker1000 09:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
It took place Jan 1989. Danielle states in Solitary that they were on the island two months when the team got sick and she shot them ("DANIELLE: Our vessel was 3 days out of Tahiti when our instruments malfunctioned. It was night, a storm, the sounds. The ship slammed into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So, we made camp, dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before --"). So 18 November plus two months is January. Also, in "Exodus, Part 1", [when she landed on the Island], she was "already 7 months pregnant", and then "the baby and I were together for only 1 week when I saw black smoke -- a pillar of black smoke 5 kilometers inland". So we have them landing on 18 November (three days after debarking), plus two months which is January, then Danielle giving birth, travels to the radio tower to change the message, and Alex is taken a week after her birth. 20 January is too soon for that to happen, and it most certainly wasn't the same column of smoke, but the flash was January 1989 for certain based on the backstory from two other shows. --- LOSTonthisdarnisland 20:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Ah! I totally missed that part when I was looking at "Solitary". So "nearly" 2 months could mean between 1.5 months (January 3) to a day short of 2 months (January 17). I think these seem like good "bookends" for the eighth time shift. Therefore we can put Alex's birthday 3 days later: between January 6 and January 20, 1989. JamesyWamesy 00:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
The only problems now is Sayid figures in "Pilot, Part 2" that the transmission has been playing 16 years and 5 months, so Danielle would have had to record it April 1988 since they crashed Sept 2004. If she, as someone stated above, changed the transmission 3 days before Alex was born, it was a mighty odd pregnancy, and how did she do that months before they ever crashed? ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 18:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
See the discussion on Talk:This_Place_Is_Death#Removed blooper. JamesyWamesy 00:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

12th Shift

Did anyone else notice that the Orchid looked a little runned down when Locke and Company arrived there? Maybe we could make Shift 12 after December 30, 2004, because it looks runned down from when Ben and Locke were there. I'm not too determined to make this happen, so if anyone disagrees, that's fine with me. --Crash815 16:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

  • That's possible, but who's to say it didn't run down then get cleaned up again by the Others. Or maybe we're seeing a different part of the station that we didn't see earlier. I'd say it's not clear enough and we'll leave it as the vague "after the orchid is built" JamesyWamesy 18:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I changed it to After The Orchid Greenhouse Was Destroyed, because it was destroyed. There is no reason to assume it was rebuilt by the Others, and every reason to think it was destroyed in the future given the state of the Survivor's camp, but I digress and agree it should be vague if and until we get a better clue. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 20:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that Charlotte did not die during the 13th timeshift but during the 12th? If she did die during the 13th shift, she died in the past, before the Orchid Station was built, which means she probably never left the island, never became an anthropologist, never came back to the island etc. pp. I thought these kind of changes were not possible, since Daniel, for example, says that they should bury the hydrogen bomb and that it will be safe because he is from the future and he knows the island did not suffer a hydrogen bomb explosion. Daniel says:"If we try to do anything different, we will fail every time. Whatever happened, happened." So if Charlotte left the island as a kid and returned as an adult, she cannot have died in the past. Oodles 10:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you've understood what time travel means. Adult Charlotte dying in the past (of the Island) does not affect anything in her own past. She will still be born in whatever year she is born, then leave and return as a adult, time travel to the past and die. As for the hydrogen bomb, that really did happen the way we see it happen. There is proof that Daniel was always predestined to trvael back in time, as Charlotte remembers him being in her past, yet he doesn't know anything about that yet as it's in his future. It's confusing, I know.--Baker1000 14:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename

  • Post-moving sounds like this happens after the Island moves, while in reality it occurs during the Island's moving. Both the Timeline page and the timeline template call this page "Time Shifts," so why don't we rename the page to match? JamesyWamesy 23:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I agree -  Rasmus Ni  Talk  Contributions  14:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Agree: With the Oceanic 6 return, a new timeline is going to start so "Post-moving" is no longer usage, as there is no cut off point for the transition into the Post-return timeline. Technically, the post-return events could also go down as post-moving events. So Time Shifts it is, to keep them separate.--Baker1000 00:07, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Agree with the principle of putting Post-return events (like the events for 316 survivors) on a separate page. Indifferent on what this page ends up being named. --  SacValleyDweller    talk    contribs   07:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Agree If the other pages are being call time shifts this page should match the others so there is no confusion, even though this is about LOST and everything else is confusing.--Deuce Dubbington XVII 03:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Ok, I think that's sufficient agreement. Someone should go ahead and rename it then. I'm not sure how. JamesyWamesy 04:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
    • A SysOps will need to move the page.--Baker1000 09:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The fourth shift

USmiltPhoto

The U.S. Army were on the island September 23, 1954 ("316")

MILES: Four U.S. soldiers, dead just under a month. Three of them were shot. One died of radiation poisoning. ("Jughead")
RICHARD: Whatever your, uh, your superiors told you, I want you to know the truth. A month ago, we found 18 members of an Army battalion right here in our jungle here, setting up this camp. We gave them the opportunity to leave the island peacefully. They weren't willing to do that, so I was forced to kill 'em. All of 'em. ("Jughead")
Using this photo and these quotes, we can assume the fourth shift occurred in late October (somewhere around, maybe a bit before, the 23rd), 1954. -JamesyWamesy 22:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I dont think so, The picture may have been taken after that massacre for all we know. --  SacValleyDweller    talk    contribs   07:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Then who took it? If it wasn't someone from the US Army, why would it say US Army on it? Sure, one of the Hostiles could have taken it, but how would it make it off the Island?--Baker1000 14:30, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Hmm... on 2nd thought, that idea maybe not be as likely, but to fill out the argument: More army folk could have come back after the massacre, took the picture, and managed to get it back to HQ. --  SacValleyDweller    talk    contribs   03:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
        • You cant just assume that right after taking this picture they took off right for the island maybee they took it before maybee after 1954 is just fine--Czygan84 23:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
          • Why else would they show this picture if not to hint that the Army was indeed on the Island on September 23, 1954. The picture was very likely taken on the Army's approach to the Island. It seems significant to me. Considering the Hostile's knowledge of the Island, it probably would not have taken them long to find the Army, meaning they were probably dead not many days after arrival, thus putting the six time travelers there in late October. -JamesyWamesy 23:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

6th shift

I think this time shift occurred sometime in 2008, based on the fact that it was presumed by many viewers at the time that this was the very near future after the Oceanic 6 returned to the island; also with "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham," it would appear that Flight 316 crashed (or landed) in the "present" as it were, while at least Jack, Kate, and Hurley teleported off the plane, landing in the 1970s. Caesar, Ilana, and the others are using those outrigger boats that we saw in "The Little Prince," and probably at some point in their near future, Sawyer's group will flash to that time period and be chased either by them or by an unknown third party. Dman176 06:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I agree, especially because of the Ajira Airways water bottle found in one of the outriggers. It was definitely after the crash, probably shortly after. JamesyWamesy 18:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
    • where are the rest of the island inhabitants flashing ? Where have they ended up? What might that have to do with the war?...I'm just getting my head spinning lately.JEMJEM 22:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • What other inhabitants are you referring to? The Others/Hostiles are around and so are DHARMA. The other 815 survivors are dead. The 316 survivors are in a different time period. -JamesyWamesy 23:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • what do you mean?We have seen Daniel, Sawyer, etc interacting with the hostiles etc in different timeperiods. But we haven't seen what has happened to them, and if they've also shifted to 1974 . Dharma past folks weren't experiencing the flashes. And we don't know what has happened to the rest of the 815, except for the ones we've seen die.316 folk weren't involved with the island flashes so they aren't relevant to my questions.I'm saying, when the flashes started on the island, what happened to the rest of the people, not just the ones we have been following. At first I was thinking only 815 folks flashed, but that isn't true. I don't have the answer...maybe it will get clearer.JEMJEM 23:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm still not understanding your question, if you're asking about 815 survivors, everyone except the Oceanic 6, Sawyer, Jin, and Locke are presumed dead. The five time travellers and the Oceanic 6 are all hanging out in 1974. The hostiles who were there in 2004 are still on the Island in 2005 living out their "normal" lives. -JamesyWamesy 00:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't know why anyone should presume the other 815 survivors are all dead, except the ones we have seen die. And there is no reason to think that the flashes that have happened happened only to the people we have seen them happen to...they should be happening to anyone on the island at the same time. There is no reason to think that the hostiles/others were not experiencing these flashes. But they were all, presumably, at the Temple, so what ever they have experienced has been in one spot, unless some of them moved. So, the question remains...except I'm less unsure about it than I was when I started this...what have the hostiles experienced during the flashes, and how does it bear on the possible 'war' that's been discussed, among other things. We know that people who just arrived on the island recently, Miles, Daniel , Charlotte have experienced the flashes, just as the 815 have. So we pretty much have to assume that the hostiles also experienced them. That does not mean they went to 1974 after the flashes stopped....but they might have...in which case, some of them at least, like Richard, would have a problem if they ventured forth, just as Locke might have if he had ventured over to see himself when they went back to when he saw the light from the hatch, or if Sawyer had decided to try to talk to Kate when he saw her helping Claire give birth. The better part of wisdom stopped them. So, either the island only took certain people to 1974 on the last flash, where things have stopped for now, or it took everyone. In any case, we don't know, yet, what happened to the others during the flashes, but we do know that Juliet, wh o was an Other, experienced them and is now in 1974-77. In reality there are two questions, 1. what did the 2004 others experience during the flashes, and 2.where did they end up at the last one?JEMJEM 21:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The Others (except Juliet) are not time traveling. We saw Locke standing alone after the first flash when he was in front of the Others before it. My friend's theory on why this is so is that the Others are the Island's original inhabitants (while the Losties, Juliet, and the Science team came to the Island later). -JamesyWamesy 01:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I vaguely remember that, but I'm not sure about when/where Locke was with the others and then not. Also, not sure what it means in terms of the others traveling, but if indeed that is what the scene showed...then they aren't.However, I'm not totally convinced...so I'll have to check that out some more. Also, it appears many Others were not original inhabitants...as far as we can tell. Richard seems like an original. It's interesting that a lot of the time we see the Others on the move, except for the period of time they were staying at the barracks.JEMJEM 20:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • And Juliet is not an Other anymore. She has been marked. My preferred term for the Others is that they have an affinity for the Island, but then I have to try to explain why Locke shifted ("...the Island...was beautiful.").--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 02:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I think it's more likely that she is not an 'original' other, as per the above post by JamesyWamesgy.That something special demands that the 815 be involved and that people the others have brought be involved...seems certain but why. At this point, the most I can see is that having been 'in' the 'past' they have some utility that the others who cannot flash cannot make happen. But...we don't yet know what.JEMJEM 20:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

JamesyWamesy, what's your reason for assuming that Rose, Bernard and the other remaining 815 survivors are dead? I've been assuming that they've been time-shifting, and that they ended up in 1974. What happened to them after that is unknown, since it doesn't seem as if they've joined the Dharma Initiative. (Although I suppose they may have done, and it's just not been mentioned yet... But it would be a bit weird if Sawyer suddenly said to Jack: "Oh yeah, didn't I say? Rose is here too.") Aridd 20:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Rose and Bernard are alive. It was confirmed in a podcast. --Crash815 00:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I guess it was a blind assumption. You'd think we'd see them after three years of living at the same time as Sawyer, et al. If they're alive, I stand corrected. -JamesyWamesy 03:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
  • In the podcast right after "The Lie" Darlton said that if Rose and Bernard were dead they would have done more or something to that effect, so i think it's safe to say they're alive. For all we know they are with DHARMA. --Crash815 04:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

13th shift

  • I know I've read a number of people assuming Kate, Jake and Hurley were taken to the 70s based on Jin being in Dharma uniform....but I really don't think we can assume any date...we don't really know what is happening with these transfers or with Dharma either....the future could be masquerading as the past, or any other of combinations...related of course to why the escapees had to return in the first place...JEMJEM 19:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Daniel

The article says that Daniel "leaves the Island" between 1974 and 1977. We don't actually know that. All we have is this brief exchange from "Namaste":

Jack: "Did you say Farraday? He's here?"
Sawyer: (sigh) "Not any more."

That doesn't necessarily mean he's left the island. It could mean he's simply left the Dharma Initiative's village, and his whereabouts (on the island) are unknown. Or he could be dead. I'm editing the article accordingly. Aridd 20:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

  • True enough. I was trying to think of the best way to word that. -JamesyWamesy 03:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This requires a little "fuzzy logic," but Daniel is consciousness shifting. His memory isn't all that good for day-to-day issues and he's either lost his journal or had it taken away from him. He has slipped away because can't remember that Desmond is his constant.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem with this is that it says Dan leaves the island between 1974 and 77, yet Dan also observes the events at the Orchid according to the timeline in 1977. Something is off. -- Xbenlinusx 16:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Have you not seen the last episode, Some Like It Hoth? Faraday returns to the Island in 1977 on the sub from Ann Arbor. -JamesyWamesy 16:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Not Random!

Does it strike anyone else as extremely interesting that the flashes/time shifts are not at all random? Here are some examples:

  • First shift coincides with the beechcraft arriving on the island
  • Fourth shift coincides with the US Army's battle with the Hostiles
  • Fifth shift coincides with Desmond's discovery that there are others outside
  • Sixth shift may coincide with the Ajira survivors arrival on the main island
  • Seventh shift coincides with Danielle's arrival on the island
  • Eighth shift coincides with Danielle's murder of Robert
  • Fourteenth shift may coincide with an earthquake that caused the statue to fall
  • Fifteenth shift allows the group to rescue Amy (and Ethan)

These might be just easy storytelling shortcuts for the writers, but I think they're cleverer than that. I think the shifts went to particularly important times in the island's history for a reason. Many coincide with arrivals or deaths. One could imagine that the rest of the shifts were to equally important times as well, but that we didn't happen to see those events. And one might also conclude that the arrival of 815 just as Desmond and Kelvin left the hatch was important as well and might have had its own time shift. --Sfoskett 14:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Interesting point, I agree that the time shifts to those particular times can't possibly have been coincidences.

Maybe it's for the same reason fligt 815 crashed in the first place, and many of the survivors indirectly knew each other, e.g. (Locke - Anthony Cooper - Sawyer, Jack - Christian - Ana-lucia/Claire) . It was most likely destiny that controlled it, so that the timeshifts moved the Losties to particular times for a reason. --David1790 14:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

    • I never thought of an earthquake happening in the last flash. I thought that shaking was happening because Locke was fixing the wheel, but I like that. --Crash815 Talk 23:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

If the times of the 9th, 10th, and 11th shifts are never explained...

The 1st and 3rd seem to occur within hours, or at most a day between each other. Others happen within a few weeks of each other. So if we never get any confirmation of when exactly they shifted to (which I doubt we will at this point since it affected nothing), would it be safe to assume that these flashes brought them back to times they'd already flashed to? The reason I bring up this point is because once the series is all done, inevitably we will want to put together a definitive chronology, and three scenes with an unidentifiable timeline would be the only scenes we can't identify. Gutsdozer 15:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

  • As much as I hate this answer, I don't think we were ever meant to know the times of those shifts. I think their only purpose was to demonstrate how disorienting the process was to Locke (later Sawyer) and party.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

We don't need to blatantly point out the numbers

Under the descriptions of the 8th, 15th and 16th time shifts, somebody wrote "8 is one of the numbers", "15 is one of the numbers" and "16 is one of the numbers", respectively. This is highly unnecessary and has nothing to do with the time shifts. --Celebok 18:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Which Universe?

Are these time flashes occuring in the original universe? the flash-sideways universe? both? or some other third universe? Jdray 13:27, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

From the Lostie's perspective

  • Just wondering if anyone knew, from the Lostie's perspective, how much time elapses between the first and last shift? Is it just a couple days, even less than that? I think it'd be interesting for the answer to this question, if there is a definitive one at all, to be included in the article. --LeoChris 18:03, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • Nevermind that, I apparently fail at reading obvious information. --LeoChris 18:08, March 28, 2010 (UTC)


Continuity question, please help

I'm not picky usually but this bugged me. So shift13 happens sometime between 1867 and Dharma (because a well being there means it has to be post "Across the Sea" and seeing no statue dates it post 1867 and disappearing Orchid dates it prior to Dharma). Then shift14 has them back prior to 1867 (cause statue is standing) but, here's the tricky part, there is now no well but there is an underground layer where a wheel has been installed. So "Across the Sea" states that MIB and his people started building the well and had the wheel idea, so no well or wheel could predate them. It also shows that the wheel had not been installed yet. Then MOM freaks out and presumably destroys the well (and logically all wells) and kills his people. So who rebuilt the orchid well after "across the Sea"? Was the orchid well intact as in shift13 prior to MOM's fit? And if so why didn't MIB use that functional wheel to leave? Also in whenever shift14 is pre-1867 how does MIB appear to Locke as Christian? Why does he? Christian wasn't even conceived yet. Is MIB time traveling with with Locke and crew? For all of the abilities we saw Jacob and MIB have time traveling wasn't one I noticed. If the well in shift13 was intact prior to MOM's fit then the statue would be seen correct? If they're different wells in shift13 and in the 70's after the final shift why do they look identical? Closest explanation I have is that sometime after "Across the Sea" but pre1867 someone new came along and figured out MIB's work and constructed the orchid wheel through some unseen secret entrance not needing a well (this fits with shift14). Then post 1867 but pre-Dharma someone else constructed the well as seen in shitf13 and then as seen after the final flash in the 70's the well is still there but someone filled it. Don't say Dharma did, that doesn't fit because as seen in "Because You Left" Dharma is trying to dig through the wall to get to the energy and when they discover the wheel via the sonar print they are obviously unfamiliar with it. Someone please help me with this trying brain teaser.--Kavorka 08:24, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

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