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The date and time Flight 815 X lands was not stated in the episode LA X. We don't even really know if 815 is the flight number. {{SUBST:User:jdray/autosig}} 23:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


Also Darlton don't want it to be called "Alternate." Flash-sideways timeline seems to be the accepted term for now. (MaxMoney37 02:58, February 6, 2010 (UTC))

Pictogram voting support with rename. Alternate should not be used. {{SUBST:User:jdray/autosig}} 13:48, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support - Darlton explain in their latest podcast that "alternate" gives the sense that it is less real than the other timeline. They go on to say they're not interested in the term "alternate reality or alternate timeline". We also have a banner above every X character page which says "Flash-sideways timeline"--Baker1000 15:00, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, yeah, my mistake when creating the page. Please could somebody go ahead and move it? Mark J 16:47, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure the flash that occurs when Juliet hits jughead an eighth time should be a lin to the time flash page. This is not a flash in time it is a flash between two universes - the x universe and the original universe. {{SUBST:User:jdray/autosig}} 21:04, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

It might be better to call this the non-crash timeline as flash-sideways isn't really reflective of what is happening. Flash was used when flashes were actually occurring, ie the time slips. This is not the case in this situation, what we are seeing is simply a different possibility of what could have happened, or what might happen still, without the crash. --Jeffersonalan 01:07, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

The "flash" in flash-sideways has nothing to do with time travel, it's a reference to the flashbacks and flashforwards that have been a huge part of the show since it's inception. Cerbo 21:53, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Claire's ultrasound date

What are we to make of Claire's ultrasound http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/75afa122b3a07f870f669b75aa4ef2df which would seem to suggest the plane landed (exactly!) a month later? Given that the day and year are the same, and only the month is off, I'm for assuming this is just an error. What say ye?

Update: Gregg Nations says it's a typo. False alarm. --Jackdavinci 01:35, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Altered Events PRIOR to The Incident in 1977

Are we certain that Jack's appendix being removed when he was 7 or 8 would have occured prior to 1977? Do we have a definitive age for Jack? --DesmondExMachina 03:52, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

  • No, we do not have a definitive age for Jack, just that he is "about" Sawyer's age("Outlaws"). Sawyer was born in 1968 ("Exodus, Part 2") and would be 7 in 1975. -JamesyWamesy 04:14, March 2, 2010 (UTC)
    • Apparently the new timeline somehow caused that to Jack. So it happened after the incident.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 21:08, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • The scar was not caused by any appendectomy at all. It was caused by the Man in Black stabbing and mortally wounding Jack in the OT before he almost killed him when he caused the injury to his neck during their final battle. The scar came through to the afterlife just like the wound on his neck did. Jdray 01:49, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • Mmm. Of course we now know that (because of the last episode), but at the point this conversation was brought up, we didn't, look at the dates. Anyway that's the correct answer. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:55, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • I saw the dates I knew when the post was made and what knowledge was known then. My attempt was to show that no appendectomy ever occured and so it should probably be removed from the timeline altogether. I had hoped there would be some discussion of this. Thanks. Jdray 21:31, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Jack

This parent article states that Sayid is in the hospital on Thursday with Nadia and that Jack arrives home to his apartment on Friday. Jack was at the hospital working when Sayid was there. Is it more possible that Jack arrived at his apartment the same night they landed and went back to work a day later? I haven't been able to rewatch the first few episodes so my timeline might be off, it's just a thought.

I think you're right... have edited the page, although it still seems kinda odd. What time of day did we see Jack in the hospital? Mark J 17:17, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, it seems to make most sense that Jack gets home to his apartment the day they get to the airport. Where else would he go for the night? I mean he is in the same clothes and looks to be cleaning up from the plane ride. Then Thursday would be when he sees David and his mom, and Friday would be when he is back to the hospital, yea?

Positivity

Are we positive about the timeline? "The Substitute" seems to take place over a longer amount of time to me, and I thought "Lighthouse" occurred after Christian's funeral?--Tim Thomason 16:51, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Short answer is no. You're right about The Substitute (fixed). As for Lighthouse I'm not so sure, has the funeral already taken place? Already things are failing to add up re Jack / Sayid. Mark J 17:17, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well we know the funeral took place because in the Lighthouse, Jacks mom references how upset David was at the funeral, doesn't she?
  • The scene where Locke's knives are delivered and the scene where he starts his first day at the school are the same day. If you don't believe me look at the clothes he's wearing, as well as the fact that in the scene with Rose she implies he'll be starting the temp work the next day. The school scenes are Sept. 24th and occur on the same day as his conversation with Helen about accepting his handicap. InflatableBombshelter 22:58, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • To the comments above about Christian's funeral, yes it has already taken place. It took place the day Jack arrived at LAX, but because there was no coffin, they had to cancel. "Lighthouse" is confirmed to take place on September 24th because David's answer machine says his audition is on that date.--Baker1000 23:40, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • Dudes, thanks for pointing these facts out. You were right and I was wrong about both episodes. Mark J 21:31, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

FST Is The Same Timeline?

Is it possible that this sideways timeline is actually the very same timeline as the people on the island? The people on the island have all travelled from the future, to the past back to 2004, so i don't think calling it a flash sideways timeline is really accurate coz its really the same timeline as the people back in america, they are just in different places.EmSeeD 20:58, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Right now we only know that it is a separate timeline to the one we know. If we learn it is the same timeline, then we'll have to either rename the page to show that or merge it with another.--Baker1000 21:24, March 8, 2010 (UTC)
Also, in the "flash-sideways timeline," the Island is underwater, so it isn't as simple as them unknowingly being in this alternate timeline (I believe that's what you're suggesting).--Tim Thomason 10:02, March 11, 2010 (UTC)
We do know now that Ben and his father where on the island but left for unknown reasons Dr. Linus.--Jeffersonalan 07:51, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

The incident

Not seen any evidence that suggests that the incident actually occurred IN the flash-sideways timeline. Although we are being led to believe that the incident caused the 'new' timeline, it's quite possible that the producers are messing with us, and so I'm removing the incident from this article in the absence of any definitive proof. Vl'hurg 14:19, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

  • I actually thought about this. Why do we assume that? Because we're led to assume that. However, the wrench is thrown in when we consider that Ben is alive in the Flash-sideways timeline. If the flash-sideways timeline was caused by the detonation of Jughead, then how did Ben (who was with the Hostiles at the time) get off the Island? Also, maybe I just don't know enough about tectonic plates or whatever, but how does a bomb sink an Island? --Crash815 Talk 14:52, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Similarly, how do we know that the Island sank after 1977? --Ghtx 18:38, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

apparent errors in day/dates in FST

The days and dates listed on this timeline can't possibly be correct (unless the FST has even more bizarre Space/Time anomalies...). What's listed is:

  • Wednesday, 22 September 2004
  • Thursday, 23 September 2004
  • Thursday, 24 September 2004
  • Friday, 26 September 2004

The first two are fine. But if 2004-09-23 is a Thursday, then the next day (2004-09-24) cannot also be Thursday. And if either the 23rd or the 24th are Thursday, the 26th cannot be a Friday.

Were these days/dates shown somewhere on-screen? Some really messed up calendar on someone's wall or desk? Or is it a series of typos on the article itself?

MrItty 01:56, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

Why is the stuff we saw in Dr.Linus listed in a different week from all the other action we have seen take place? Also the events in The Package occur on the day after the flight lands. The information listed as happening in Sundown with Sayid does not match up with Jin's experiences in The Package. Jdray 23:40, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

  • For me, the events of the package, are as follows: September 22 Jin regains his freedom. 23 September will see Jin and Sun have sex. September 24 Keamy knocks on the door of Sun and Jin finds hidden in the bathroom. Keamy takes Jin to his restaurant, while Sun and Mikhail go to the bank. Jin is released by Sayid. Sun and Mikhail arrive. Mikhail kills Jin and Sun is injured. User:Adrianppaez 08:55, April 5, 2010
    • Dr. Linus had to come weeks after the plane landed to give us time to see Locke's life as it is in this timeline. It wouldn't make much sense for him to land one day, and be working as a substitute teacher with Ben the next day. NandR 14:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
  • The only problem i can see with that Adrianppaez is that when Jin and Sun have sex they discuss the metting that Jin missed earlier that day at the restaurant. If that was the next day then Jin wasn't in custody so why would he have missed that meeting? He clearly intends to go eventhough he doesn't have the money. Jdray 16:28, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • We are having a discussion about it here. What we are suggesting is the one that Adrianppaez said, but would, yes, contradict what they said about missing the meeting. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:11, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
      • I noticed you went ahead and changed it. Had the decision been made to ignore that contradiction in their discussion then? Jdray 04:26, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
        • I really think that we are getting nowhere there. So I edited it in the best way to avoid any contraction. For now, it works. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:30, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
      • Sun and Jin defiantely have sex on the night of the flight - Sept 22. When she does the striptease for him, she's wearing the same tan cardigan she is wearing on the airplane. Are we to believe that she wore the same clothes for two straight days ? This isn't the island LEHLegacy 13:44, April 15, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • i concur with LEHLegacy. Jdray 20:32, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

I am not 100% sure but after last night's episode the only way to reconcile this now is to move Locke's flash sideways story back to the same week in which he got off the plane. The same week in which all the other action is happening. Jdray 12:26, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

  • Not really I don't think. As the timeline stands now, he's been subbing at the school a week before Desmond runs him down. I don't really see an issue with that. He may not have had to come in to sub each day which could explain why Linus didn't know his first name.LEHLegacy 13:48, April 21, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • The thing is that Sun and Locke arrive at the hospital at the same time on the same day and Sun was shot at Keamy's restaurant only two or three days after the flight. Not a week later. Jdray 15:11, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Everybody Loves Hugo

Can i also ask how we know that the events that took place in this episode took place after September 29? Sorry if that is a question that the answer to should be obvious to me. Jdray 21:03, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • When Desmond finds Hurley in Mr. Clucks, he says, "Were you on Oceanic flight 815? About a week ago... from Sydney." That's probably where the +7 days calculation is coming from. Lolobey 21:11, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • As I suspected a completely obvious answer. Thanks lolObey. Jdray 21:19, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that should be changed to around September 29, not after September 29. Desmond could be saying "about a week ago" only 6 days after the flight. That's still about a week. --Crash815 Talk 21:29, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • If anyone has watched the second sneak peak from 6x13, you'll know we are going to have a big problem on our hands with this timeline. LEHLegacy 13:47, April 18, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • I saw that sneak peek, and yeah its going to change with heaps of these events. Buffyfan123 08:28, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

The Last Recruit

I have no idea how to reconcile the discrepancies here. Sun's injuries happen maybe day three or so.. but Locke's happen a week or more. Any ideas? Unless Sun and Jin he;d out in their hotel for quite sometime before Keamy came to get them and Sayid was kidnapped.?

  • I had the same thought - Locke got the substitute job and started within a few days? Seems unlikely, especially taking into consideration Sayid's timeline as well. NandR
  • Here's my idea. So Locke and Sun arriving at the hospital at the same time is problematic for the timeline we currently have on Lostpedia. As it stands now, Sun's injury happened a week prior to Desmond running down Locke yet they arrive at the hospital together. 6x13 continued to reinforce that the events happening are a week after Oceanic 815 arrived in LA - Sawyer mentioned to Kate at the police station and I believe Desmond to Claire. I think I have a solution that will satisfy all that we've seen to date. By the conclusion of "Sundown" we know that Sayid has been in LA at least 3 days because we were given 2 night scenes. I suggest adding a week in time starting with the scene where Sayid is taken to Keamy's restaurant by Omar. Then sync up the events in "The Package" by adding a week from the time Keamy and Omar initially discover Sun and Jin together to the scene where they have the discussion including Mikael and Sun goes to the bank while Jin is taken to the restaurant. It's also clear from Sayid's perspective that the shootout at the restaurant happened +1 week from their arrival in LA because he is shown returning from the restaurant in a rush and then arrested by Sawyer shortly thereafter. It's not an optimal solution but I believe it satisfies all the criteria we've seen without creating any contradictions. Mainly I don't think there is anything to suggest given what we've seen to say that a week couldn't have passed before the two scenes I suggested above. If there are no objections I'll change the timeline myself LEHLegacy 13:35, April 21, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • i don't think i agree but i would like to hear more input from others. Jdray 13:50, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't really object to this, but I am not 100% convinced that Keamy would give Sun and Jin a week together, without trying to get his money, yea? I need to rewatch - but doesn't he force them to get dressed and leave the hotel room? In a week the two of them could have hopped a flight back to Korea for all Keamy would have known. NandR
    • NandR, I was going to mention it above, but the only real problem with what I have above is exactly what you are saying - that I wouldn't believe it either that Keamy would give Sun and Jim a week to get the money. I don't like making up scenarios where he had them under surveillance for a week so that they don't skip town but right now this is the best I can come up with. I am open to suggestions like I said, but the way I have it above doesn't present any concrete contradictions with the show as far as I can tell LEHLegacy 15:36, April 21, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • It is a strange inconsistency that's for sure. There is also a lot we don't see - but in Locke's FST we definitely see a progression of at least a week. He gets home, goes to work presumably the next day to get fired, has the discussion with Helen regarding his surgery, then when his bags come home, and sees Rose, and then gets a job and becomes a substitute teacher. All Sun and Jin really did that we saw was get nakey, get turned down at the bank, and then get shot. NandR
        • My idea is this: place the events themselves who are described with dates in their respective dates and place a second paragraph with the title "After the September 22, 2004" and place all the events that have no determination to date. What do you think? We will be very complicated if we keep trying to arrange a chronology that producers did not take into account. User:Adrianppaez
          • I'm going to have to disagree with this approach. That just is too much of a cop out I think on our behalves. Although obviously your approach would not create any contridictions, Lostpedia should provide a far better wiki when it is possible, and I believe in this situation we have enough information to be a bit more specific. LEHLegacy 12:40, April 22, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
          • Adrianpaez- NO ONE HERE AGREED WITH YOUR CHANGES HERE YET YOU WENT AHEAD AND MADE THEM ANYWAY - PLEASE CHANGE BACK LEHLegacy 18:22, April 23, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
              • Sorry, just wanted to help. I'm not going to change your job, but I was thinking: What if Jin did not leave the airport on the day of Flight 815, but a few days later? And with that, but quit after one day, things change. Taken into account. User: Adrianppaez

Let's assume everything happened a week later after "LA X"

... and that's how we solve the inconsistencies problem. For the people that wonder why then Keamy waited a week to take care of Jin, well, we can make up something like "Keamy was busy elsewhere (probably taking care about the loan to Omar)", or "Jin couldn't find Keamy until he apppeared." What do you think? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 08:02, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

  • I don't really like the idea of assuming stuff, but I also don't think we have much of a choice unless we just admit that it seems like a wacky fault on the writers? NandR
  • James, see my latest response in the above section. It sounds like you like certain thins with my approach. I am going to go ahead and implement them, take a look at how it looks and we go from there LEHLegacy 12:41, April 22, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • I concur with NandR. We should never ever make assumptions like the one you propose. If it was the writers fault then that is what we should say. This is a wiki to document actual things just like that and not for making things up. Regardless a consensus definitely has not been reached. Lets please just give it some more time for more people to weigh in. Thanks Jdray 15:20, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • I admit it, the writers did a big one here. But the show's still good. So I'm saying let's asume that, because if we don't, then the whole sixth season doesn't make sense. Agreeing with LEHLegacy. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 16:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • I actually went ahead and added 06x13 info and moved the 2nd half of events from the Package and Sundown back a week. I have no issue at all changing it myself if a strong consensus agrees to change. One change I am already considering is, maybe Keamy didn't come looking for Sun and Jin on the morning of Sept 24, but maybe a week later. I'm thinking this because I added the break after the initial convo b/w the 4 and before they all meet with Mikael, but in the show there is no commercial break or flash sideways to the Island between the two meetings so therefore you could possibly assume the Mikael meeting happened the same day. Who knows for sure though. LEHLegacy 16:35, April 22, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • Keamy comes to the door the "morning after"... if you catch my drift. We know this is the same day that the plane lands because they fly, check in, and then get out of the same clothes in that whole sequence. Unless Sun and Jin travel with only the clothes on their backs - which is just as likely as Keamy waiting a week to get his money, yea? NandR
      • Not necessarily Jin and Sun had sex the same day they checked in, they could have done that a week later, with Sun making the "shopping" during that week. And after a week Sun used her same clothes again, perfectly possible.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 21:07, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
    • Agree with NandR They were clearly wearing the same clothes.Jdray 21:09, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we are doing a good work here. After all, seeing if it matches is the writers' work, not ours. But I'm agreeing with you, LEHLegacy. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 19:32, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ok well the bottom line is a break needs to be put in someplace. Either the "morning after" ie Keamy doesn't come by till a week later or after they meet with Keamy but before they meet with Mikeal. I vote option 1 b/c of the argument I made above regarding how the Mikael scene was presented in the show as one scene. While we're at it, are we ok with the edit I made with adding the week's time in Sayid's story from when he fixes the vase and talks to Nadia to when he is taken by Omar ? LEHLegacy 21:15, April 22, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • Has anyone actually considered the fact that the inconsistencies may be deliberate? In other words, we have been assuming that the FST is a timeline like the OT. However, this may not be the case. There is precious little evidence that it actually existed at all before Sept 22nd, and it certainly does not seem to exist beyond the confines of LA; even people who should be in New York, Russia & Japan all appear in LA.--Sean Sheep 21:36, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
      • I think we need to operate as if there is nothing incredibly out of the ordinary about this timeline if for at least sanity's sake. I think we are all presuming by show's end this timeline will merge in some way shape or form with the OT. When that happens we will address then; who knows, at that time this page could be completely and drastically different.LEHLegacy 22:05, April 22, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
        • The point I am making is that in order to make sense of it, some pretty wild assumptions need to be made, which run counter to the observed evidence. Not only does the Sun/Jin timeline not fit sensibly with a week's hiatus, but can you imagine what would have happened with Sayid/Nadia being left alone for a week? They would have been all over each other like a rash. In addtion we have Liam Pace looking for Charlie about three days after he was released. Nothing makes any kind of sense. There is no way that the producers have screwed up this badly. Something is definitely wrong.--Sean Sheep 22:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
        • The Jin/Sun does not mesh with a week hiatus. Nadia/Sayid does not mesh with a weeks hiatus. Locke's timeline should be the one changed to fit those two probably. Not the other way around. Jdray 23:53, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
        • Problem is that in Locke's episodes we have seen day and night, night and day, so we can actually count days and they make for that four. Jin/Sun's days make at most two. So we are assuming that we didn't see some days of Jin/Sun, but we can't take some days out for Locke. Oh, and about Liam, he probably didn't know that Charlie was released (since he escaped the hospital). --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 05:00, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
        • Locke's timeline is fine. We presume he gets the job at the school a few days after LAX b/c we say the day and night scenes as Dr. James said, then he's there for a bit until Desmond runs him over. Desmond defiantly runs him over +1 week from LAX b/c he told Hurley so before he got to Locke.LEHLegacy 16:19, April 23, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
          • I think the point of many of the concerns is that the Locke timeline is the only one that's fine. Trying to correlate the other timelines around it doesn't make sense. The current timeline wiki page leaves huge gaps in other timelines where it was implied there was no gap. If you try approaches to shorten Locke's timeline you either end up with school in session on the weekend, or you end up with Locke run down at the end of his first day of school and it being apparently unworthy of mention in the last half of Ben's episode. If you go with the second option, that in turn applies pressure to Jack and Desmond's timelines, which are also several days long now. Something is actively wrong that can't be handwaved. (Mirth23 16:37, April 23, 2010 (UTC))
            • Those gaps are the only solution, if we don't assume them, then the whole sixth season doesn't make sense. Locke's timeline is fine, Jin/Sun's is not. Actually, their timeline is the only one that gives us problems, because we can assume that Keamy went for Sayid a week later of the crash (because it is not specifically implied that they happened the very next day). But the problem is with Jin/Sun, because of their clothes, etc. So I'm saying, let's adjust Jin/Sun's timeline, Sayid a little bit (with that assuming), but the rest work fine. I think I'll write to the Lost podcast to see if this is answered. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
              • Agreeing with Dr. James. The gaps are necessary thanks to the 1 week later comments from Desmond and Sawyer. I think the change we should make regarding the Jin/Sun timeline is the one I mentioned above where Keamy doesn't show up till 1 week after Sun and Jin have been in LA. It's not perfect, but this whole thing is a mess. James, if you are serious about writing into the podcast I think that's a great idea, but they really don't address anything that has to do with a continuity issue. I remember a podcast from last season where someone wrote in about all the inconsistencies that were brought up by the Bentham episode and Carlton in particular got really really defensive. You could tell in his tone he took it personally. However, it looks like all our discussions here are useless as someone has gone in ant point all these events in discussion into a new category. How annoying. I'll fix it. LEHLegacy 18:13, April 23, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
              • It seems like adjusting timelines to match up nicely goes more into the realm of theory rather than accurately documenting the series. Isn't Lostpedia intended to be accurate? (Mirth23 17:58, April 23, 2010 (UTC))
                • Yep, but if we don't assume, it doesn't make sense. LEHLegacy, thanks for fixing it. By the way, what did Carlton say about the Bentham's contradictions? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:54, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
                  • Assumptions are for the theory page. There's another way to make this prettier without padding the Jin/Sun storyline as much - Locke gets hit by Desmond on his first day at the school, and then the last half of the events in Dr. Linus happen on Monday/Tuesday of the following week. We don't know which is right. Assigning dates and sequence authoritatively on a main page without caveats is misleading to the casual Lostpedia reader. (Mirth23 19:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC))
                    • Now someone is finally saying something i can get behind that does not involve the wild assumption that Keamy just lets people who owe him money ride for a week. It is not just the Sun and Jin timeline that does not match up with Locke's but Sayid's timeline too because he is there to release Jin from thr freezer. Since two timelines don't match up with Locke's that is the one were assumptions should be made. Jdray 19:42, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
                      • You guys, Locke's timeline CAN'T be changed! Desmond ran over Locke after seeing Hurley, and Desmond said to Hurley that A WEEK has passed since Oceanic 815! So Jin/Sun's timeline must be adjusted - NOBODY else's!--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 19:52, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
                        • What Dr. James said. You guys have to understand. We are obviously all trying to do our best with a situation that is totally screwed up. Either we have a timline that assumes some assumptions or we have a timeline that has 2 heading entries, one with "Sept 22" and the other with "after Sept 22", which IMO is so generic why even bother to have a timeline page?LEHLegacy 20:42, April 23, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
                        • Agreeing with this man. I don't see any problem to assume stuff in order to make Lostpedia a more accurate place (and with that, Lost itself). --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 22:07, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
                      • Do not agree. I don't think those are our only two options. With an open mind i think there are probably 5 or 6 different options of way we could deal with this. When only 2 are proposed it is a false choice. Jdray 10:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
                      • People keep saying that. Any ideas? Post them. And let's see. But the solution that LEHLegacy and I say may be the better option. Do not agree? Then let's hear your idea. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 15:20, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
                        • See numerous proposals in discussion above. Jdray 15:39, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

A proposal says, "My idea is this: place the events themselves who are described with dates in their respective dates and place a second paragraph with the title "After the September 22, 2004" and place all the events that have no determination to date.". LEHLegacy said, "IMO is so generic why even bother to have a timeline page?". I think the same. The work we have done now, is the only solution. Think of it: the only way that Jin/Sun arrived at the same time as Locke, is that they arrive one week later (because of Desmond and Sawyer comments), and that means they had sex one week later. The only way to fix it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 16:03, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

  • The best way to deal with this is the way that Lostpedia episode pages do - document what's seen on screen, and address any issues with a "bloopers and continuity errors" section. One of the reasons to have a timeline page is to support fans who discuss theories which involve time flow and time travel. They expect the timeline page to be an accurate tool. The Jin and Sun hotel scene is clearly the same day as the flight - they are wearing the same clothes, and the dialogue implies that Jin missed his meeting due to the customs hold up. Putting a week between those scenes is simply wrong, and makes this page an inaccurate representation of what's on screen. I think the solution is to document events with dates, and then flag the events that seem off when they've happened on two different days. (Mirth23 16:40, April 24, 2010 (UTC))
  • Proposal # 1 do not add a week to the Jin/Sun story because there wasn't a week in there. No opinion in this statement. just facts we saw on screen. Jdray 18:27, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • Guys, I want you to see one thing. Jin's tuxedo at the airport (specially his tie) is somewhat different to the one that he is wearing later at the hotel. Sun's skirt in the hotel is kind of light brown, whereas in the airport it's gray. Seeing that the clothes somehow differ, it could be said that those two events are happening a week from each other. Also, Jin never says that it's the same day that they were at the airport. He just says, "Your father made me travel half a world to deliver this watch." Then they enter and they have sex. There's no direct implication, the clothes are not exactly the same. Only Sun's top, but a week has happened and she may be repeating it. So it could have happened a week later, that's all. And that's what fits the timeline. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:18, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • Do not agree. The events are not happening a week apart. On the day the flight lands Jin and Sun are detained at customs, released from custody, and have sex. That same day Locke get fired from the box company, meets Hurley, and goes to the temp agency. The next day Jin, Sun , and Keamy meet at the hotel, Jin and Keamy go to the restaurant, Sun and Mikhail go to the bank, Omar gets Sayid who kills Keamy and frees Jin, Jin kills Mikhail, and Jin and Sun go to the hospital and find out their baby is ok. That same day Locke is run over by Desmond, Claire and Desmond go to Ilana's office and run into Jack and Jack operates on Locke. Jdray 19:02, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
      • You insist. Your timeline has a problem. According to you, Sayid shoots Keamy on September 23 (the next day of Oceanic 815). But in "Sundown" we see that at least two nights pass after Oceanic 815 before Sayid shoots Keamy, making that shooting at least on September 24. Watch "Sundown" again if you don't believe me. That's way we have moved things a week later, to accommodate this. So please can you read what I post? Because it makes more sense than the things you post. Ok, I moved the events one week later which may be weird, but at least I don't contradict what he have seen in the show (the minimum days passing, etc).--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:08, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • You insist. Your timeline has a problem. Sayid must shoot Keamy that day because that us the only way the timeline works. Watch "Sundown" again. Do you see two nights? Not so sure. Also adding one day is much much different than adding an entire week. That is why things should not be moved to a week later to accomodate this. So please can you read what i post? Because it makes more sense than the things you post. It is extremely wrong to move things to a week later because it contradicts things we see on the show in Jin and sun's timeline.Jdray 20:36, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • EXCUSE ME. WE DO SEE TWO NIGHTS. ONE WHEN SAYID'S BROTHER TELLS HIM ABOUT THE LOAN, AND ANOTHER ONE WHEN SAYID TALKS WITH NADIA ABOUT WHY HE NEVER HAD HER. TWO NIGHTS. COUNT. THANKS. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 22:01, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • Please do not yell. I see nothing to indicate the nights are different. Jdray 23:34, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • Are you bothering me? Seriously, are you? NOTHING INDICATES THE NIGHTS ARE DIFFERENT? NOTHING? Ok, how about the fact that the first night, Omar talked with Sayid about the loan. And that the second night, Omar is already in the hospital, and that's why Nadia talks with Sayid ("What did you say to the kids? That their father had an accident, and that he's gonna be alright"). Oh, right. Nothing, eh? Oh, of course, and the fact that the show showed us that they were two separate nights, because it showed us day 1, night 1, day 2, night 2. So, what's your problem? If you're going to discuss, see the show ("Sundown"), and learn the stuff. Because I know the stuff, I've made my homework. So if you have a point, be sure of what you're talking about. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 03:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
            • Two different nights does not equal a week. Jdray 04:29, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • Right, but they equal at least two nights, not one night as you said. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:41, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • It is not a week as you said. Jdray 05:40, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • But not one night as you said. You always contradict yourself. Right, there were two nights, but to match up with Sawyer and Desmond's comments, we can assume there were these two nights, and other five irrelevant days we didn't see. Then we match up and continue from there. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 06:31, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
      • Another thing you contradict and I don't: Sawyer caught Sayid the same day he killed Keamy. Before catching him, Sawyer said to Kate that A WEEK has passed since Oceanic 815. So sorry but we have to move everything a week later. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:21, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
      • And it can't be a Sawyer's blooper because Desmond also said to Hurley that a week has passed since Oceanic 815 before running over Locke. So events ARE happening a week later, so let's accommodate Sayid, Jin, and Sun please. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:26, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • Moving Desmond and Hurley's conversation will have no effect on when he runs over Locke. Let's accurate show the tmeline of Sun Jin and sayid please. Jdray 20:39, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • Ok, my patience is running out. You a) Obviously aren't reading everything I write, b) Don't care about it, c) Don't see all the points that I write, that mention why the things I say make sense and the ones you say don't. I don't want to use Caps, so I'll write it in a pretty way: Desmond ran over Locke after seeing Hurley with Libby. Before seeing them he said to Hurley that a week has passed. So he ran over Locke a week later of O815. Sawyer said to Kate that a week has passed also, so their timeline do match with all this. The problem is with Sun and Jin, so I'm saying to move their sex and kidnapping events a week later so they fit. Also, it means that Sayid shot Keamy a week later of O815, because after Sawyer's comment to Kate, he arrested Sayid. Ok, we can say that we didn't see some Sayid days. With those things, the timeline makes perfect sense. So: after reading all I wrote, thinking about it, and probably checking the episodes again, answer me. In the meantime, don't. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 21:58, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • I have read everything you wrote and noted how it does not match up with Jin and Sun's timeline. There is nothing to indicate that Desmond had not run over locke before he talked to Hugo. I do not think we should just move Jin and Sun's action around because that is not what happened. Jdray 23:37, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • Ah, this is just beautiful. You're the one who says that I'm assuming a lot of stuff. And you want to ASSUME that Desmond ran over Locke before talking with Hugo, when the EPISODE SHOWS THOSE EVENTS THE OTHER WAY AROUND? DESMOND TALKS WITH HURLEY, HURLEY HAS HIS DATE, DESMOND WATCHES HIM HAVING HIS DATE, THEN RUNS OVER LOCKE. THAT'S HOW THE EPISODE SHOWED IT. IF YOU DON'T AGREE THEN YOU'LL HAVE TO CHANGE THOUSANDS OF ARTICLES AND I BET I WON'T BE THE ONLY ONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE (but believe me - I'll be there). PLEASE READ WHAT I POST AND STOP MAKING NON-SENSE ASSUMPTIONS. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 23:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • Please do not shout. I do not want to assume anything. I am not assuming Desmond drove over Locke before talking with Hugo. That is what must have happened in order for it to make sense from what we have seen on the show. I don't have to change thousand of articles because the articles reflect what was shown on the show. Tht may be how the episode showed it but we are constantly seeing things that happened at different times shown at different times. We saw flight 815 crash before we saw the black rock's arrival but we don't list flight 815 first in the timeline. Jdray 23:48, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
          • I'm not shouting. Ask yourself something. What do you think is more probable? That Desmond ran over Locke before or after talking with Hugo. Let me get you a clue: they showed us first Desmond talking with Hugo, then seeing him on his date, and then he ran over Locke. That's how they showed us the event. Of course, the Black Rock arrival appeared after O815's crash, but hey, those are called flashbacks, don't you know? And "Everybody Loves Hugo" wasn't that case. Everything happened linearly as they showed us. Also, you're so focused to tell me that Locke's ran-over couldn't have happened a week later of O815. Please, read: Sun was shot at the same day Sayid shot Keamy. The same day Sayid shot Keamy, Sawyer saw him on that camera. The same day Sawyer saw him, he said to Kate that a week has passed since 0815. That means, Sun was shot a week later of O815. And since Sun arrived the same day as Locke, for Locke a week has passed also. Everything's happening a week later of O815 - they're showing us, and you don't want to see. So the adjustment here is for Sun and Jin. I have told you this so many times, that it's kind of obvious for me now. Very simple. That's all. I don't think you can deny that now. Because you can't. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 03:39, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
            • It is considered shouting to type in all caps. I think it is more probable tht he ran over him before because that is what fits in with all the other things we have seen on the show. Those are the clues I have. The thing we are seeing are called Flash-sideways don't you know? Sun was shot the same day as Sayid and that was not a week later it was right after the flight. The day of the flight Locke gets fired from his job at the box company and goes to the temp agency. the next day he begins his job as substitute teacher, gets run over, and Jack operates on him. No way Sun spent a week in LA with Jin and did not tell him she was pregnant. No way Keamy let Jin and Sun walk around LA for a week owing him a nice watch and $25,000. They are showing us and you don't want to see. I have told you this so many times that it is very obvious to me now. Very simple. That's all. i don't think you can deny it now. Because you can't.Jdray 04:34, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • Learn to read (Copy and paste): Sun was shot at the same day Sayid shot Keamy. The same day Sayid shot Keamy, Sawyer saw him on that camera. The same day Sawyer saw him, he said to Kate that a week has passed since 0815. That means, Sun was shot a week later of O815. And since Sun arrived the same day as Locke, for Locke a week has passed also. Everything's happening a week later of O815 - they're showing us, and you don't want to see.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:43, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • Learn to read (Copy and paste):Sun was shot the same day as Sayid and that was not a week later it was right after the flight. The day of the flight Locke gets fired from his job at the box company and goes to the temp agency. the next day he begins his job as substitute teacher, gets run over, and Jack operates on him. No way Sun spent a week in LA with Jin and did not tell him she was pregnant. No way Keamy let Jin and Sun walk around LA for a week owing him a nice watch and $25,000. They are showing us and you don't want to see. Jdray 04:46, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • Ok, you're bothering me. I've called a system administrator. Until that, I won't reply anymore. I leave you with this: Sun was shot at the same day Sayid shot Keamy. The same day Sayid shot Keamy, Sawyer saw him on that camera. The same day Sawyer saw him, he said to Kate that a week has passed since 0815. That means, Sun was shot a week later of O815. And since Sun arrived the same day as Locke, for Locke a week has passed also. If you want to become serious, I'll talk with you. But until that, nope. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • It is not my intention to bother you, merely to state my case. If you feel you need an admin then by all means please call one. If stating my case is something for them to be concerned with then i will happily discuss it with them. You have repeated again what you have said and i can again explain to you why it must be the next day from what we have seen in jin and Sun's episode. If you want to become serious i will talk with you, but until that nope for me too. Jdray 05:45, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • I know that Jin and Sun being visited by Keamy is apparently set the next day as Oceanic 815 flight, but please understand, according to Sawyer and Desmond's comment it happened a week later. I'm just saying what the show is saying. I'm pretty tired because of this, because I have explained it over and over again. I know, it sounds weird to add a week there, but if we don't, the season doesn't make sense. We could assume under some circumstances that it happened a week later, but we can't erase what Desmond and Sawyer said. So, sorry but that's how the show painted it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 06:26, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
          • We need to know the day the plane arrives, that will help eliminate things like Saturday and Sunday from the sequence of events. As in Ben's high school wont be open on a Sunday. So if the plane arrived on say friday, the high school scene could not be 2 days after, on sunday VeryBadRobot 14:33, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
            • Oceanic 815 landed on a Wednesday.  Robert K S   tell me  14:45, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • As Robert KS said. That' why John couldn't have worked, like, for four days and then he was hit by Desmond. That possibility was erased by me a long time ago. That's why I say it happens a week later, besides Desmond and Sawyer comments, it makes sense for the days. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 15:06, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
              • @Robert..thanks. @Dr. James, you two need not get worked up about the arguments, I like it. You've infact elevated the issues that FST have introduced. Kudos to you both. I hope you did come to an understanding with regards to Desmond's change of shirts as well. He is wearing a blue black stripped shirt when meeting Hurley at the restaurant, then a light blue one when observing hurley and libby's beach scene. He then wears a blue black stripped shirt at Locke's high school. In terms of chronology, couldn't the sequences have occured at different times in a different order. Say, run over Locke immediately after he gets the flight manifest.(Going by the similarity in his shirts then...possibly??)VeryBadRobot 15:38, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
                • Em, should I laugh, or should I cry? Desmond's change of shirt may be a continuity mistake. But if you want to believe that those three events (meeting Hurley, seeing Hurley on his date, running over Locke) passed on three different days, then ok. I actually might agree with you. But the fact is that Desmond running over Locke will still happen a week after Oceanic 815 since that's what Sawyer says to Kate before going after Sayid who shot the guys who shot Sun the very same day that Desmond ran over Locke because they arrived at the same time at the hospital. So that event still happens a week afterward. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 19:37, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
                • Laughter, James, the best medicine. I get it, but you do understand that since it is a debatable issue, the fine nitty gritty stuff(clothing changes, etc) should also be mentioned, eliminating most of the confusion VeryBadRobot 05:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • I believe I may have answered my query in that, the film crew needed to crash Desmond and Charlie into the bay. But, the vehicle couldn't be used afterwards, so they had to film certain scenes like the wheel chair crash which will dent the hood of the car and other scenes before dumping it into the water. It may account for the shirt discrepancies, if at all.VeryBadRobot 16:25, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • Typically production goes episode-by-episode. One episode's filming is completed before it's on to the next. The exceptions to this are very rare.  Robert K S   tell me  16:45, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
Desmonds cars

Desmond's car in "Happily ever after" (left) and in "Everybody loves Hugo" (right). Not the same car. Obviously his car crash was first and that's why he needed another one. Every page in Lostpedia says that.

    • VeryBadRobot, are you saying that Desmond uses the same car when running over Locke and when having the accident with Charlie? Actually, he doesn't. Why? Because the accident was first. The car got all wrecked and he needed a new one. See for yourself. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:03, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • Can we be rid of the notion that somehow Desmond ran over Locke before his Hurley meeting ? No way does LOST show the scenes out of order like that within the SAME episode. It just doesn't happen like that LEHLegacy 19:14, April 26, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • @LEHLegacy The notion has been definately discredited by Dr.James. VeryBadRobot 05:46, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, at this point it does not make any sense that car crash could account for anything, thanks for the clarification. The shirt may just be a continuity error, I will discount that. Now if none of the other statements by Sawyer and Desmond is a continuity error I stand convinced that Dr. James and LEHLegacy have a believable time line. One week Later'Bold text'. Sun and Jin may have been at the hotel longer. That, is the only change that doesn't disrupt anything else.VeryBadRobot 05:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • To be quite honest, I am much more comfortable with Sundown's timeline including that Sayid stayed with Nadia a few days as James and I discussed below. It's possible Omar was in the hospital for a few days and so Sayid stayed around. I really feel The Package is the ep with the major issues. I'm not a huge fan that Keamy came by +1 week b/c the scene where he first comes in gives an impression that it does take place on Sept 23, the day after the flight and after Jin and Sun do it, BUT BUT BUT it's not directly said as such so this is where we felt was the best possible situation to put a week break in. I hope this explains James and I's position best. LEHLegacy 13:31, April 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • Here's an idea (I don't remember if it was brought up before). Who said that the flashsideways in "Everybody Loves Hugo" when Desmond hits Locke happened after all of Hurley's flashes? That flash could have happened the very only a couple days after Desmond met Penny Milton in "Happily Ever After". We assume it happened after Desmond talked to Hurley, but that's not necessarily true. --Crash815 Talk 16:41, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
        • This has been debunked about 5 or 6 times already on this page LEHLegacy 17:14, April 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
        • No, we've just established that that's off the table, because we are putting it in order of how the show presented it to us. Now, LEHLegacy, I see that you are agreeing with me. I'm not a fan either that Keamy appeared 1 week later, but it could be said that, after the airport scene, Jin called Keamy about the watch, and Keamy told him that they would meet later, since he was busy now with Omar's loan. That's the only way to fix it. After all, the characters of the show never said the opposite. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:09, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
          • Wow, I think we just responded to Crash815 at the exact same instant, haha. Anyway, something like you suggested would work but obviously we could never put an assumption like that into the time line. Again we are just trying to find rationale for creating the week break so that The Package syncs up with all the other stories. In light of this, another thing I was thinking was since Jin was short the 25k, he probably decided after not making it to the restaurant on Sept 22 to not sneak out Keamy right away while he attempted to get the money back. This is almost like a mirror of what you're saying and again, this is assumption and so would not ever make it to the time line but it is a possible scenario to consider when justifying putting the week break where we currently have it. LEHLegacy 17:18, April 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
          • Hehe. That assumption is very good, I like it. The other ones I posted make sense too. Anyway, any kind of assumption like this can correct the timeline. So we're good. I wonder what JJ and Cuse would say about this. Are they aware of these problems the last episode presented? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:49, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
            • If you read Doc Jenson of EW he says one of his readers pointed this out in an email and he plans to address his theory on it in his next column. Did you send a note tot he podcast people about this like you mentioned above ? LEHLegacy 21:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
            • Yeah, I did. Can you send it too? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 21:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Claire gives birth to Aaron with Kate at her side and later Kate is apprehended by James. However during Claire and Jack's encounters at the attorney's office when he leaves to perform John Locke's surgery and when Claire and Jack see each other at the hospital after he has tracked down Anthony Cooper she is still pregnant. Jdray 01:59, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • That's totally incorrect. In "What Kate Does" Ethan offers Claire drugs that will stop the labor and Claire agrees. She did not give birth.LEHLegacy 13:43, May 5, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • Yeah I was clearly wrong about that. I am not sure how I got it in my head that she did have the baby while Kate was at the hospital with her (but I think I may have been intoxiacted when i watched that one.) Thanks for letting me know. Jdray 01:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
    • As usual, Jdray writing stuff that makes no sense. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:21, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
      • Whoa! Dude wow seriously? I go away for a week or two to stay spoiler free for the finale and you take the opportunity make personal attacks on me both here and in the section below. You are taking this way too personally. There was clearly not a weeks time between Jin and Sun having sex and Keamy coming to the hotel to get them the next day. This makes perfect sense when you open your mind to possibilities like the one presented in last nights episode. But you couldn't do that you could only argue and attack me for pointing out what was shown on screen. You should apologize. Jdray 01:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
        • Ah, come on. Always you have said things that make no sense. Don't believe me? Look above, to your comments. You'll see. YES, THE TIMELINE WAS PURGATORIAL. But it has to make some sense in "how days have passed". The only way to match Jin and Sun is to assume that they spent a week together. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY. But you know? If you don't want to assume that, then that's you. In fact, believe anything you want. But we're trying to work here. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:24, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
        • Whatever. I have only ever said that there was not a week's worth of time in the jin/Sun timeline and that we shouldn't make stuff up but record what we were shown in the episodes. It makes no sense to add a week where clearly none existed. Purgatory is a place of temporary punishment. That is most certainly not what we saw in the FST. It does not have to make sense in "how many days have passed" because they are all dead and in the afterlife. This is the only way to accurately record what we were shown on the show - to state that the afterlife is beyond the boundaries of time. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY. But you know? If you don't want to acknowledge what was shown in the final episode then that is you. In fact, make up your own show and insert random weeks wherever you like. But we are trying to record what actully happened on the show here. not make wild assumptions that directly contradict what was shown on the show. Jdray 05:02, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
          • Oh, by the way, I've never created "random weeks". I'm assuming one week for some problems and that's the way to fix them. And stop copying my messages. It's annoying and you obviously do it to bother me. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:50, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
          • You want to insert a week in Jin and Sun's timeline and you want to insert a week in sayid's timeline as well eventhough no such time period was shown in either case. Jdray 11:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
          • Then how do we keep track of the days? Because it still happened one week later, listen to Desmond and Hurley's comments. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:35, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
          • It did not happen one week later. It happened in the afterlife. Listen to Claire and Jack's conversation in the Candidate after they met at the attorney's office and after he did the surgery on Locke who had been run over by Desmond. Claire - "I just flew in from Sydney a few days ago." Jack - "When?" Claire - "Last Wednesday." Jdray 20:15, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
            • We've always said that we've assumed it happened the week after Oceanic 815. Oceanic 815 was on Wednesday, and this event can happen Monday/Tuesday of the next week. From Wednesday to Monday, there are 5 days. Yes, "a few days ago". Yes, "last Wednesday". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:47, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
            • I am not sure who we is but some have tried to force assumptions on the timeline concerning a week being inserted. Others disagree. Now that we have seen the final episode we know that Oceanic 815 X was in the afterlife. "A few days ago" does not equal 5 days. Jdray 11:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

My Word, I leave Town For 3 Days

  • And this page goes into complete disarray, haha. I hate to get into the middle of what has become and apparently very heated conversation, but didn't I come up with what the consensus has agreed to do with moving Sayid and Sun/Jin's timelines 1 week ahead last Wednesday ? And during that time didn't Dr. James agree with me the whole time ? Again, we are not trying to force our timelines down people's throats, but we are trying to create something that causes Z E R O contradictions, despite if the motives of some of the characters don't seem to make sense. James, thanks for your work on this LEHLegacy 12:23, April 26, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
No problem, man, thank God you're back. "Jdray" is battling with me and sometimes he says non-sense stuff, contradicting himself. I've just written what the show has told us (like the "week" commentary from Desmond and Sawyer that Jdray won't accept, no matter what). Read my last posts and you'll see what I mean. I've written the same over and over again, and he won't understand. At least with you I have someone that can back me up. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 15:08, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
Not a problem. Again, I don't like the way our timeline is, but it's the only way to avoid an outright contraindication. I hate the show for doing this to us, haha LEHLegacy 19:18, April 26, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
Dude you are acting like a spoiled brat. I may have pointed out where the show contradicted what you said but that is all. I have just written that Claire clearly states to Jack "a few days ago" and Keamy came to Sun's hotel room the very next morning but you won't accept it no matter what. Read my posts and you will see what I mean. i have written the same over and over again and you won't understand. The show backed up what I am saying last night. Jdray 11:05, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
No, it didn't. The show never said: "Time doesn't flow normally here." It just said, "There's no 'now' here", which can be brought up to interpretation. But as you see in the whole season, time flows normally. Just look at any episode. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:52, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
I am looking at the episodes and time simply does not flow normally. If it did the timelines would match up but it doesn't. Jdray 12:13, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

If you move the timelines a week ahead, then just think about the consequences: For example:

[Sundown]]

  1. Sayid ... walks up to the front door of a house, rings the doorbell ... After dinner ... Sayid's brother receives a phone call, declares that dinner is over ... Sayid is sleeping on the couch in the middle of the night
  2. The next morning ... Nadia rushes out of the house yelling to Sayid that Omer is in the hospital ...The two arrive at the St. Sebastian Hospital ... Nadia asks Sayid to return to the house and look after the children. That evening Nadia returns home... Nadia reports that Omer is recovering from surgery and is awake.
  3. As Sayid is leaving Omer and Nadia's home the next day, a black SUV pulls up. Sayid is asked to get into the car... complies and is taken to a restaurant kitchen.

Now, according to this, #1 is Wednesday, #2 is Thursday, #3 is Friday.

Are you therefore proposing to change this page as well? If not, then in attempting to create a consistent page here, you will merely create inconsistences between pages. If you attempt to change the Sundown page, then I fear that you will meet with a lot of opposition.--Sean Sheep 15:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

    • I don't really care whats going down on the episode pages. They have 100000 editors there all fighting to own the page to the point where it makes whats going on here lately child's play. Like I and James have said a dozen times by now, for Sayid's story the week break makes the most sense from the night he is talking to Nadia fixing the vase to being picked up by Omar. I don't see any glaring issues with that LEHLegacy 19:18, April 26, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • Exactly. There are obviously 3 days, but why can't day #3 be a week after day #2? There's actually nothing in the show to indicate the opposite. Okay, so we fix "Sundown". But everything makes sense. Sayid never said on day 3, "Oh, my brother was sent to the hospital yesterday." He just said we was sent to the hospital. So maybe he stayed in Omar's house for a week, taking care of his children, keeping an eye on Nadia (everything with full respect). If that's what makes it match, then I'm with it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 19:32, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

"The day before a week after 22 September" section

James, I'm not sure if you missed this, but I removed Sun and Jin having sex from this section and moved it back to Sept 22nd. As per the discussions I believe the general consensus was that they definitely had sex the night of Sept 22 b/c Sun is wearing the tan blouse and Jin is upset over missing the meeting. So as we discussed Keamy comes about a week later and it just so happens Jin has been sleeping there in the interim - not perfect again but it's what we discussed .I think the only even we know for sure happened that we can put in this section is Hurley's award dinner. I am, however contemplating adding the later events of Dr. Linus to this section as well just so hopefully we can perhaps combine a section or two. Unfortunately it's kind of tricky to put a timetable on the Dr. Linus story LEHLegacy 15:05, April 29, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy

Mmm, so that means Jin has been sleeping with Sun for a week? You say that because they're wearing the same clothes? Let's take a look.
JinSun clothes

Compare between Jin's tuxedo (it's a business suit actually Hunter2005 00:49, May 1, 2010 (UTC)) and tie and between Sun's skirt. Yeah, the blouse is still the same but at least we've got something.

Look at Jin's original tuxedo. It has a different color to the one he's wearing when he goes to Sun. The same about his tie. Also, Sun is wearing a skirt that is more like brown, whereas the original is gray. The only thing that she's wearing the same is the blouse. So about the clothes changes we could say that a week has passed, and Sun was just wearing that blouse again. Because of this, I would suggest that they had sex one week later of O815. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 15:30, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • I must point out that Jin is wearing a standard business suit and NOT a tuxedo (although yes some people wear tuxedos with standard ties instead of a bow tie at formal functions leading to confusion, like at the Academy Awards [the Oscars], which I HATE.) Hunter2005 00:49, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
  • I hate to pick, but it really just looks like different lighting. Hotel lighting vs airport. I know this has been an issue since last week, but why is it so hard to chalk it up to a timeline error? --NandR|talk|contributions 15:38, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
James, they are wearing the same clothes, it's lighting issue as NandR said above. I coulda swore were were agreement on this without going through the loads of talk above. Also, Jin wouldn't stress about missing a meeting if they have just been hanging out all week - I think it's strongly implied he missed the meeting because he was held at customs. Plus Sun mentions Jin telling her to button up on the plane; would she really bring that up a week later ? The Package is messed up - we all know that, but if a discussion is going to take place IMO the most valid one is if Keamy comes by on Sept 23 or one week after Sept 23rd which we've debated to death already. But I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that Jin and Sun sex session we witnessed took place on Sept 22. LEHLegacy 18:07, April 29, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
Ok, be cool, I was just saying that I spotted those changes of clothes and they could justify the 1 week trespassing (at least the tie IS different). That episode is really a mess, the other ones are ok. We have two options: either Jin slepth with Sun during a whole week and then Keamy arrived, or they didn't and Keamy arrived the first day they slept together. Either way is kind of buggy. But that's what we got, so we must choose what's best for the timeline. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:13, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
Ha, it's cool don't fret. Either solution is buggy, yes. Listen, truth be told, I think the show f'ed up. For all intents and purposes I BELIEVE the show's intent was to show that Keamy came the next morning, but later the show f'ed their timeline up with the whole 1 week later convo stuff that's been given in ELH and TLR and makign it feel like at the time Sundown aired that only 2 nights had passed since 815. Unless we find out for certain it was a prod error, (speaking of which, did you get a response from anyone - there wasn't a Darlton podcast this week) with having Keamy coming a week later does for us is creates (in a bogus and buggy way) a solution that DOES NOT create an outright contradiction with anything else presented to date. Same situation applied to putting the week break in Sayid's story where we currently have it. LEHLegacy 18:26, April 29, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
LEHLegacy, we both know that the show did screw up. Man, everything was going so well. I wonder what will happen in next episodes, if they will address this. But you know, I love the show so much, that I still try to give it the benefit of the doubt. I say to myself, "Who knows? Maybe Mr. Paik told Keamy to be around there a week later, because Keamy was going to kill Jin, and if he had done that the day the arrived to L.A., Sun wouldn't have 'enjoyed', at least a week, her shopping." I don't know, stuff like that. And that's what I've been saying. Yes, the show intended to show us that it happened the next day, not a week later. But what can we do? Either we give it a strange, but rational solution, or the show has no sense. I prefer the first option, haha. Be cool, try to help, and maybe we can fix this mess.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 03:28, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yea, I keep hoping they will address this on the show, but my guess is no for 2 reasons. #1, Darlton's #1 priority is storytelling at this point - their care for this kind of stuff i have to believe is minimal with so much mythological story to still unfold. Secondly, I don't know if you pay attention to the post-return timeline, but over there we had a similar problem with the show not showing any night scenes from LAX Part 2 through Sundown and there was a lot of debate on whether a day passed or not. We just kept waiting to see if the show would address it after Sundown and they didn't, naturally, b/c the story moves on.LEHLegacy 14:36, April 30, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
        • I kind of disagree. If they made a mistake, they made a mistake. Why create something that the show didn't - just to make up for staff oversight? If this really is a huge timeline blooper, it's something that should have been considered way beforehand, not as an afterthought by fans. --NandR|talk|contributions 12:30, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
          • You know putting a blooper section in here is a possibility like they do with the episode pages, but I think on a timeline page, if you start putting in bloopers and continuity errors as fact it renders the page kind of useless IMO. The whole point of a timeline page is to show things how they happened chronologically if that ceases to be it just makes for a wasteful page. Again, it's not OUR fault, but I'm just saying that's how I would feel.LEHLegacy 14:36, April 30, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • I see that now, in the page, "The Package" has a note regarding the continuity error. I think it's fine like that, until we have a better explanation. But the timeline stays like this for now. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:10, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

What we can do is give it the strange but rational solution that was presented in last night's episode. Then the show makes sense. That is the way to fix this mess. Thankfully they addressed it on the show and it is not our fault. They didn't make a mistake and we don't have to create something that wasn't shown on screen. It is not a huge timeline blooper that requires a bloopers section and we don't have to make up for staff oversight. Jdray 01:23, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

6x14: The Candidate - Any new clues ?

  • As expected, I didn't really find much in this episode to clear up all of the issues we are having revolving the week gap b/w 815 and the current events. Claire again affirmed it's been around a week since 815 when her and Jack were talking in the waiting room. One thing I think we can discuss is how many days have passed since Jack did the surgery till the end of the episode. We know he did the surgery the same day he went to go look at Christian's will where he met Claire. When him and Claire meet he apologizes for leaving "the other day". Also I figure he probably went to go see Bernard and then Cooper over 2 days while Locke was in recovery. If anyone has screen caps of the outfits Jack was wearing during those visits, that could help (along with what he has on at the end of the ep when he is talking with Locke) However, since we can't get any concrete dates, I just added the events of this episode on the timeline page to the last section "a week after sept 22"LEHLegacy 14:56, May 5, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • Right, the timeline stays as it is -- like I've been saying all this time, the events are happening a week after Oceanic 815. About when it is "today" in the flash-sideways timeline, I would say that when Jack spoke with John about the new kind of treatment, a day had passed since his operation, and another day passed when John said goodbye to Jack. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:19, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
  • In this episode during the scene when Claire asks Jack about the music box Christian left her Claire clearly states that the flight was only "a few days ago". (Exact quote Claire - "I just flew in from Sydney a few days ago." Jack - "When?" Claire - "Last Wednesday.") Nowhere in that scene does Claire say the word week. Jdray 01:13, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, but according to you, everything is happening the day after Oceanic 815 (because of Jin/Sun's continuity problem). Now with Claire's comment actually I win, because "a few days" means more "5 days" than "ONE day". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:53, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, but according to you everything is happening a week after 815 (because of the Desmond/Locke continuity problem). Now with claire's comment I actually win because a few days ago means more "less than a week" than "a week". Jdray 02:27, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
No, you lose. Didn't you read what I wrote? You're saying that it happened the next day after Oceanic 815 (one day after), even though Claire says that "a few days" have passed. Now a few days can mean 5 days (not exactly a WEEK - seven days - but five, just enough to match it up), but it'll never mean ONE day. Ask anyone. Thanks (and by the way, you keep copying my messages). --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:09, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
No, you lose. Didn't you read what I wrote? You are saying it happened a week after 815 (7 days after), even though Claire says that "A few days" have passed. Now a few days cannot mean a week and does not match up with the week you want inserted. I am addressing your posts line by line that is all. Jdray 06:05, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
For anyone's interest, I'm saying it happened 5 days after, on Monday/Tuesday of the next week, 5 days after Oceanic 815 ("a few days"), that was on Wednesday. Jdray is the one that says that everything happened one day after, which is by no means "a few days". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
For anyone's interest, I am saying that jin and sun's one day does not match up with Sayid's time period which does not match up with Locke's time period which does not match up with Claire's time period. You have always said it is a week later and now magically it is 5 days later and not a week. You constantly contradict yourself. 5 days is not a week. I don't say everything happened one day later. I say Jin and sun happened one day later. You are the one who says everything happened a week later, which is by no means a few days. Jdray 20:56, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Read again everything I said. Obviously you didn't understand. And there's no need for you to copy this message, as you do with all the messages I write just to annoy me. I read and understood your message. I always said that the events happened a week later of Oceanic 815. With that I mean, the next week. It can be the Monday of the next week, 5 days after O815 (the Wednesday), and still "the next week", "a week later", and "a few days [later]". With that clear, I'll say: I have never contradicted myself. Just you didn't know I mean 5 days until now, with "a week later". Come on, man. I'm trying to help. Obviously "The Package" showed us that Jin and Sun were two days in LA before going to the hospital. I agree 100% there. However that episode contradicts "The Last Recruit", which show us that they arrive at the same time as Locke. And according to Sawyer's comment, they've been in LA for a week. So the show contradicted itself, and what do we do to try to match it up? We can't take off days of Locke, because we clearly saw some days and nights of him. The same for Sawyer, etc. So one solution is to assume, that we didn't see some nights of Jin and Sun. Please try to understand. I'm trying to do my best here. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 22:45, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I am trying to do my best here. Please try to understand. I'm trying to help. Obviously you don't understand. I am trying to accurately record what was shown on the show. Obviously Sundown showed Sayid's afterlife which he constructed for himself in which a certain amount of time passed be it two or three days but not one day and not in the next week (be it a week later or the next week). The Package showed us Jin being released from custody on the day of the flight and Keamy coming to Sun's hotel room the next morning. This contradicts Sayid's story line. Then in the last recruit Locke's storyline takes up another third different period of time that contradicts not only the Sundown timeline but also the Package timeline which still contradict each other. Then in the Candidate Claire has experienced a fourth period of time in her afterlife experience that does not match up with any of the other three which all still contradict each other. The show most certainly did contradict itsef and that is because it is showing us the afterlife where time does not flow the same for everyone. What do we do? We have a page that accurately shows these contradictions. We do not assume time periods that clearly did not occur for Jin/Sun or any of the other characters. That is one solution and it is the wrong one. Read again everything I have said. Jdray 01:04, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • Hey, man, take it easy, I always read what you write. I see your point here. That means that your current approach is that every single character has its version of the timeline? Every character has its own relative time? If that's your approach, I'll fully respect it, but we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I still think that time still works normally in the FST, even though we have seen contradictions. Those errors I mark it as continuity errors (as has happened in earlier seasons). ROBERT KS said the same: there appears to be a normal day-night system in the FST. There is cause, there is effect. There are days, there are nights. I don't think every character has its relative time, I think they all operate in the same time of, as you call it, afterlife. That's why I plan of making a vote call. I wrote it below. I invite you to help me. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 01:09, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • I am the one who needs to take it easy? I agreed that I disagreed with you a long long time ago. As for Robert Ks and the normal day night system - of course the afterlife the losties created for themselves had days and nights because the OT world they lived in while they were alive had days and nights. The issue has always been with those days and nights matching up with each other. I am not sure that a vote will solve anything but if you want to call for one by all means do so. What kind of vote will you be calling exactly though? And wasn't a moderator called in? Would it not be the moderator's place to call for any votes that might need to be taken? Jdray 01:40, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes, but he hasn't said anything so... I think we may be able to handle it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 02:24, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Comic Con Videos

  • It seems like there is no point for the Oceanic Airlines Commercial if it predates 815's landing at LAX. Also, in the Mr. Cluck's advertisement, Hurley says that he was inspired by a trip to Australia - isn't that the vacation he's coming back from on 815? I think they should be moved to some unknown time after 815 landed. (Mirth23 22:49, April 22, 2010 (UTC))

I propose...

Incident change

As you can see, for both timelines, before 1977, it is the same. After 1977 the things change (red arrow represents the losties traveling through time, no need to mention the other travels).

Well, I think that by now it's obvious that prior to 1977, it is the same for both timelines. You see, the detonation of Jughead in 1977 created a new timeline. But before that, it was the same for both. This is clearly stated in "LA X, Parts 1 & 2": we see the losties in 1977, Juliet detonates the bomb, and after that we see "2004 X" and Oceanic 815 doesn't crash. And we see the island sunk, yes. So the bomb is the reason of the new timeline. Daniel Widmore said the same in "Happily ever after". After 14 episodes, we can be sure to say that.

So I've got two proposals:

1) In this article, put the same events of Timeline:Pre-crash and Timeline:Post-return leading up to 1977, because they are the same for both timelines.

2) Create a new article, that would have all the events until Jughead's denotation in 1977 (which can be called "Timeline:Until 1977" or something like that). And in the end of that article write: "To see if Jughead's detonation prevented the incident, see: Timeline:Flash-sideways timeline", and we continue from there here. And we also write: "To see if Jughead's detonation did not prevent the incident, see: Timeline:Pre-crash", which is the article of the original timeline, and we continue from 1977 there.

Please, comment. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 17:20, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

  • I defiantely think you are on to something and to be honest it's very possible this will be in fact the case. However, as you note yourself there is still a bit of hypthosis around this and I feel like at this stage of the game with < 3 weeks to go till the finale, perhaps it's best to simply just revist this discussion on May 24. That way we don't have to worry about editing and moving a lot of parts around in case this dosen't happen to be the case and we can agree upon the best way to present the information LEHLegacy 01:26, May 8, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • You're correct. While I believe I am right, I think the best would be to discuss this on May 24. So let's leave this section open. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 02:26, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • And the final episode cleared it up. There are not two timelines at all. So yes it is the same timeline in 1977 as before 1977 and after 1977. The FST was actually an afterlife. These events occured after all the people in the FST died in the OT. The bomb was not the reason for the new timeline. Death in the OT was the reason for the new timeline. The FST should not include any pre-death events leading up to 1977. At the end of the OT article we should have a link to the afterlife article and write: "To see what happens to the characters after their deaths see: afterlife". Jdray 01:06, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • While you're correct, if you re-watch "LA X" and "Happily Ever After", you'll see that the detonation of Jughead succeeding, was the one that created this purgatorial timeline. As Faraday says about the bomb, "I think I already [blew it up]". I still think that up until 1977, the things are the same for both timelines. But after 1977, the OT timeline is the one that happened originally, and the FST is the one that the Losties would have wanted to happen - therefore their "purgatory". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 11:21, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • The OT is the only timeline there is. The FST does not begin in 1977. The FST begins when the last lost survivor in the FST dies in the OT. (I imagine it was Hugo after thousands of years of protecting the island.) Faraday did blow it up before his death in the OT and this resulted in the Losties being transported 30 years into the future. Once they returned to the future they lived their lives there until their deaths when they began the afterlife that was shown in the FST. There is no both timelines. There is one timeline and at the end of that timeline there is an afterlife. Purgatory is not a place where you get what you would have wanted. It is a place of temporary punishment. Jdray 11:40, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • It's probably going to be the subject of debate for eternity as to the nature of the so-called FST. Personally I'd view it is a seperate plane existance outside of time. To some degree it might exist after the so-called original timeline, from a character's perspective it is in their futures while they're alive, then they migrate to this new plane once they die. In a weird way, they might be closer to flash-fowards than sideways, for example, in 'Lighthouse' we are effectively seeing Jack's 'future' as it where rather than a parallel existence. But its probably not exactly a traditional future in terms of time: From Boone's perspective it occurs when dies, which in the normal sense of time occurs in 2004, yet Jack does not enter it until 2007 (OT), yet it is all the same 'time' in the afterlife/FST or whatever you want to call it. So our estabhlished notions of 'timelines' may not apply. Just my opinion. MR IRISH 21:32, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Further to my above point, I don't believe Jughead caused a deviation in time. Consider how it was shown in the 'previously on Lost' section of 'LA X', not the main narrative, so arguably was not part of the introduction to the FST (sorry if this sounds confusing) whereas it was shown in the main narrative prior to showing the survivors waking up at the hatch in 2007. MR IRISH 21:37, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, I do think that the Jughead created that deviation, created this timeline, that everyone wanted it to exist, but since "Whatever happened, happened", that can't be done. However, when they all died in the OT, I think the timeline "reset" for them from 1977 in which Jughead now DID succeed, and they started to live this purgatorial life. That's how I see it. Some may agree, some may disagree. I still believe that prior to 1977 it's the same for both timelines. Yes, I believe there are two timelines. One is real, one is purgatorial. But what has one in common with the other one? Events leading up to 1977. And that's that. Agree if you want, comment if you'd like. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:20, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Delete

We've known for some time that about the sideways flashes bizarre continuity problems. We now know though that trying reconciling different characters' time lines isn't just futile - it's wrong, this world doesn't follow normal time. --- Balk Of Fametalk 23:57, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • Look I am just absolutely ecstatic that there is someone on here who has a different plan besides - "just randomly insert a week where we were clearly shown only one night and day after the flight landed" Is your argument that the afterlife flashes have no coherent timeline because of characters' contradictory imaginations? Maybe there is a way to put it all in chronological order without assigning any actual spans of time. For example first this happened, second this happened, third this happened without ever saying this happened on the day of the flight, this happened the next day, this happened a few days after that, etc. I am not sure we should delete outright. Is there already a page like the one i am describing? I would love to hear more from others. Jdray 00:28, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • Yes. Characters are creating their own action, and no outside force confirms they're consistent. --- Balk Of Fametalk 05:53, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • The problem is that we can no more order events chronologically than we can date them. For instance, what do we date first, Ben and Locke's first sideways meeting or Sun's shooting? Ben and Locke's of course, because Locke will later arrive at the hospital the same time as Sun. But between going to work and getting fired and visiting the temp agency, Locke must have met Ben several days after Flight 815, so to resolve this, we'd have to plop Sun and Jin in the hotel for a week again, which is ridiculous. --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:00, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
      • I think we could definitely say that Locke's meeting with Ben happened before Sun's shooting. We can also put the events of Locke going to work and getting fired and visiting the temp agency before his meeting with Ben and not state how many days after the flight Ben and Locke met because these things are occuring in the afterlife. This would keep us from having to use the ridiculous solution of leaving Jin and Sun in the hotel for a week again. Jdray 11:22, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose This is an encyclopedia, we have to keep track of things. And there are obviously days and nights in this timeline. "The Package" problem was a continuity error, that's all. We've tried to solve it by assuming that Jin and Sun spent a week together before they got busted so they can match up with the rest of the Losties. Everyone has been fine about that. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
That's a terrible solution. Of course Sun and Jin didn't shack up for a week. Jin first wanted to visit the restaurant at 11pm then skipped stopping by for a whole week? --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:10, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Balk 100% here. There is no way Jin and Sun spent a week shacked up in a hotel and she did not tell him she was pregnant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdray (talkcontribs) 2010-05-27T06:22:16.
Last episode showed us that "there's no 'now' here", but this timeline seems to work as a normal one besides that: people born (Aaron), people die (Keamy), people eat, etc. There are days and nights. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
And a guy decides he's ready for spinal surgery, but the surgery's done just hours later. Though Lost itself has shown such surgeries taking weeks between volunteering and operating. Labor takes three pushes. Though Lost has shown dozens of more realistic deliveries. This world isn't real. David isn't real. The kids in Locke's school aren't real. And time doesn't flow logically. Check the blog I linked to. --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:19, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
Again agreeing with Balk. There are numerous examples of this timeline not working as a normal one. Jdray 11:22, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
So we've tried to work it out. And, by the way, Jdray, that comment was obviously against me. For your information, I've tried to help and the things I've said have worked. You haven't done anything, so please don't say something like that again or I'll call an administrator and he'll take the required measures. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • Dude call the administrator if you are so upset. I stand by what I have said. You are the one who started using my name in two different sections above. This is an encyclopedia and we should keep track of things. Things like how we were never shown a weeks worth of time in the Jin/Sun timeline we were shown one night and Keamy came the next day. Things such as how the FST timeline doesn't match up because the FST is not reality. It is the afterlife. Everyone was trying to make sense of it before the final episode aired and we found out there is no making sense of it. And not everyone was fine with simply inserting a week as you suggest - that is why there is a disclaimer there and lots of discussion. The timeline does not work as a normal one because none of the timelines matchup. Also in what reality do people gather at a church and walk into a light to move on? That is not how a normal timeline works. In some of the losties FST experience they have had some nights and some days an in others they haven't. We have been trying to work it out and we shouldn't do that by assuming phantom weeks of time. Jdray 01:13, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
    • Only you have a problem with the damn week. If the week doesn't exist then the sixth season doesn't make sense. And you know what? I thought we left this week stuff behind some time ago. Get over it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:44, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
      • Please refrain from using profanity. At least one other person has a problem with the week - the person who inserted the disclaimer in the timeline because it wasn't me. The week doesn't exist and season 6 makes perfect sense because the FST is the afterlife. Some time ago a decision was made to insert the disclaimer and now that the final episode has aired we must accurtely show the new information we have been given which provides us with an explaination that does not involve inserting phantom weeks. Get over it yourself. Jdray 11:22, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
      • Right - the flash sideways make no sense. The finale established that. So we have to stop trying to apply the rules of "sense" and must instead apply the rules of "purgatory." We don't know those rules. All we've got to work with is "There is no now." --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:57, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting oppose Maybe the page needs some work, but it shouldn't be deleted. Every other part of the show has been documented on a timeline. The flash-sideways/afterlife should be worked out in a timeline somehow as well. JamesyWamesy 02:59, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

We document every other part of the show on timelines because they exist on timelines. The sideways flashes don't. Let's say that we saw "Fire + Water" one minute at a time. We'd put the Christmas Charlie received a piano on the timeline. Then we'd see Liam in a diaper, and we'd get confused, and say Liam grew up really quickly. Then we'd see Charlie and the piano in the ocean, and we'd call that "unknown time on the island". Then Hurley would appear in a living painting, and we'd speculate on what caused the apparition. Then we'd learn the whole thing was Charlie's imagination. Would we leave diapered Liam in our flawed time line? No. We'd write it off as a dream, and just mention it as Charlie's dream in the second season. Similarly, we should list each character's flash sideways actions in their synopses, after their lives, but these events don't take place in September of 2004. --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:27, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • A "timeline" of events for the Flash-Sideways is still helpful though, centralized and outside of the individual character pages. Obviously it doesn't have to be written in the standard timeline way, because there is no coherent timeline. There are the trappings of one, and we can figure out somewhere of placing them in a coherent order based on what we saw. They are heavily connected, and we can probably put A (flight) - B (Sawyer at work) - C (Desmond going crazy) - D (concert / church) on the page in a helpful manner.--Tim Thomason 11:15, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • So are you saying that time doesn't flow normally in this timeline? Because the week problem was obviously a continuity error. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 11:44, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • This article by NO MEANS should be deleted. Every sequence of LOST is documented and the FST should be no different. I understand the whole there is no "here" and "now" statement by Christian, but the FST still operates in nights and days and still gives us actual DATES (see Claire sonogram). To, for lack of a better word, "mesh" all the stories together under the moniker that time doesn't really exist in the FST is irresponsible. To me, it sounds like an excuse for the anti-insert-a-week crowd (Jdray) to put events where he feels they should belong. Here's the thing, for as LONG AS LOSTPEDIA IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA FOR LOST, we must do all in our power to outline the events so that THEY DO NOT CREATE A BLATANT CONTINUITY ERROR; even if that involves throwing in the extra week. Like I've said above, I HATE THE ADDED WEEK, but as far as I can tell, it's the only way to sync up the stories from The Package/Sundown/Everybody Loves Hugo/The Last Recruit (I swear I am repeating myself). I have still yet to see a solution from the anti-insert-a-week crowd that makes this all work WITHOUT creating a blatant continuity error. To me, it sounds like the suggestion from that crowd is to remove ALL DATE HEADERS, and just have a bunch of bullet points. Is that the best we can do ?LEHLegacy 14:53, May 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
  • LEHLegacy you called my name and so i wanted you to know that I do not want an excuse to put events where i feel like they should belong. I want to document what was shown on the show and what we learned about the afterlife. The continuity error was created by the writers not by me. Jdray 21:27, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
Hey man, we're trying to do our best here. You were the one who said that we only saw one night of Sayid in "Sundown" when we clearly saw 2 different nights. We've paid a lot of attention to the episodes, so if we say to insert a week there, it means that it may be the only logical solution. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
I said one night of Sun/Jin which doesn't match up with Sayids and neither of which match up with Locke's and none of them match up with Claire's statement. I have paid a lot of attention to the episodes and just because you say something does not mean it is the only logical solution. Jdray 00:54, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Nope, I clearly remember that you said that in "Sundown" there was only one night and if we saw two it was the same night. No way man. If you're going to continue this discussion I suggest to go check the episodes again. I've watched 4 times each episode. YES THERE WAS NO WEEK SHOWN IN "THE PACKAGE", but assuming it fixes the continuity problems. (My God, it's like the 100th time I write that). Final note: Let's see how Jdray copies my message. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:20, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
i hve watched the episode at least 4 times as well. There was no week in the package and assuming one creates a continuity error for Jin/Sun's experiences in the FST. (Geeze its like the 1000th time i write that). It also does not fit in with what we were shown in Sundown regardless of whether or not it was one or two days. I am simply addressing your posts line by line. Jdray 06:11, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Ok Geez for the 100000th time you still aren't providing an alternative. Yes the package stuff, yes the week insertion makes less sense in the Sun and Jin story like than it does in Sayid's but there has to be one or else (for the 100000th time) WE HAVE A CONTINUITY ERROR. Maybe the moderator needs to decide what we do when we have a blatant continuity error like what the show has provided us here b/c like i've said (10000 times above) my belief is the show freaked this one up. Now the decision to make is, do we deal with it by trying to find a way where it COULD work (mine and Dr James solution) or do we just say to heck with this page. That's the decision to make and at this point I think it's up to a moderator b/c this discussion is going no where. LEHLegacy 12:45, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
That is defintiely not the decision to make. There are most certainly other options and they are presented on this page. Jdray 15:07, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Moderated

I've been asked to butt in as an admin, so here I am. Clearly there is some frustration that the flash-sideways has some chronology problems that work to defy easy ordering of events. And Christian Shephard, with a roll of his eyes, announced that "there is no 'now'". That said, causality still appears to apply in the FST. Each effect had a cause and these can all be traced. Nights still follow days. So even if this article has to have some explanatory matter at the top to describe the continuity problems or has to present several alternative timelines that each make their own assumptions, I think the article should stay, since there are enough linkages between stories to try to make sense of the puzzle. For example, there were several mentions of a week's elapse in the show. One of them occurred between Desmond and Hurley in the Mr. Cluck's. I think another one was between Claire and Jack at some point. Can we list all such instances of mentions of time elapses? Also, is there anything else that really screws up the timeline besides Sun and Locke arriving at the emergency room at the same time? Is it possible that Jin and Sun were held at customs in LAX for more than just a few minutes/hours? Maybe they were held there for a few days? A lot of work and discussion has gone into this article and I think even if we can't get the timeline perfect, that's no reason to declare the article void and delete it. Eventually someone would just come along and try to re-create it and we would be stuck in a loop. I'd rather have progress.  Robert K S   tell me  16:17, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

  • Thank Robert. I've gone ahead and added the events from the finale to the article. LEHLegacy 18:09, May 27, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • Thank you, Robert, thank you very much, to come here. To respond your question:
  • Sawyer said to Kate that a week has passed since Oceanic 815 when they meet at the commissary.
  • Desmond said to Hurley that Oceanic 815 was "a week ago".
Now, Sawyer said that to Kate that the same day that they busted Sayid. That means that Sayid stayed for a week in LA. Now, since Sayid found Jin that same day, it means that for Jin/Sun a week has passed also. And with that, it matches Sun entering at the same time with Locke to the hospital, because he was run over by Desmond after he stated that a week has passed. The problem here is that we saw only two days of Jin/Sun, and it was supposed to be a week. So that's why I've suggested that Jin/Sun stayed for a week in the hotel before they got busted - and continue from there. Some users agreed with me, and LEHLegacy said that even though it was "glitchy", it was the best for the sense of the article. However, Jdray has opposed this idea, and he has tried to say that there wasn't a week because we didn't see it. That's right, we didn't, but we're doing our best and inserting that week there (not any random weeks, Jdray) appears to be our only solution. That was the whole point with the section I made above - "Let's assume everything happened a week after LA X" - but this problem continues today even though the show's over. It's ok, we're doing our best, but some users are disagreeing here. However, after this facts I've pointed out, it's apparently the only solution for the timeline. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:15, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • It is very glitchy and when combined with all the other glitches it clearly demonstrates that time does not flow normally in the afterlife. It is not that we did not see this week of time it is that in the sundown episode Jin and Sun have sex on the night of the flight and Keamy comes to Sun's hotel room where he finds Jin and Sun the next morning. We should do our best to accurately show what happened in the episode and not insert assumed weeks like the one that is being inserted into Sayid's timeline also. It is most certainly not our only solution. Jdray 00:28, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh dear God... everything I wrote... and he's still insisting... Can anybody give me a hand here? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:49, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I definitely do not think the page should be deleted. Please try to understand. First we had the Jin/Sun episode and it showed one day and one night and everything was well. To answer your question Jin and Sun could not have spent days in custody because when they check into their hotel which they had reserved for the day the flight landed they had a conversation in Sun's room before they had sex that confirmed it was the same day. Then along comes Sayid's timeline and someone decided the thing to do was to add a day to the Jin/Sun story to make it fit and cover the continuity error. Things were not so rosy. Then we get the episode when Locke was run down by Desmond and again someone added an assumed week to not only Jin/Sun's timeline but also to Sayid's. Again in the name of solving a continuity problem. Things got darker still. Then in The Candidate Claire explicitly states to Jack that the flight landed "a few days ago" NOT "Almost" or "About a week ago". At some point we have to acknowledge that time just does not flow normally in the afterlife. It is not just the Jin/Sun timeline that doesn't match up with the rest. Now we have three timelines that are out of synch with each other and don't match up - jin/Sun, Sayid's, and Locke's. If it was one out of synch with the other two matched up it would be a different story but none of them match up with the other two and so this was obviously done purposefully to show the properties of the FST. Jdray 21:22, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
Whether you like it or not, even though it's purgatory-like, the timeline still has dates, days, nights, etc. We can keep track of things. If not, why our Losties know what day is it? Like David's audition. The show clearly stated that is was September 24. That's right, there are dates. There are no events without date established. We're trying to help here. And come on, time does flow normally (there are dates!) Quoting ROBERT KS, "And Christian Shephard, with a roll of his eyes, announced that "there is no 'now'". That said, causality still appears to apply in the FST. Each effect had a cause and these can all be traced. Nights still follow days." That's what I've been saying all these days, I hope you pay attention at least to what he's saying. Also, Claire's comment can mean 5 days. And of course it wasn't done on purpose, those were continuity mistakes that we're trying to fix here. And with that "hated" week, apparently it matches. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:15, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Wouldmn't it be easier if we simply timeline the characters since everyone has there own story until all meet at the church, we can never get the timeline accuarate, and this is the afterlife, so theres no point for a day system, since there isn't really a 2004 now is there. Buffyfan123 00:32, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • Another proposal I can get behind because it does not have us inserting time when we were clearly shown one night and the next day. Jdray 00:57, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • There are dates, remember David's audition and Claire's sonogram. There were dates there. It's just a continuity problem that we would have fixed if it wasn't for some. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:48, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
        • It certainly isn't about whether I like it or not. Again 5 days doesn't equal a week and that is another of the numerous glitches that show that time is not the same in the afterlife. This many continuity errors in one timeline must be purposeful and cannot have been done by the writers by accident. Jack knew David's (who doesn't even exist) audition was after he heard the answering machine message because in the afterlife he had constructed for himself he heard the message and he constructed an afterlife where he could go be a good father and see the audition. In the afterlife Jin and Sun are experiencing Sun was shot the day after the flight. We shouldn't be fixing it for the lost writers. We should be accurately recording what the lost writers showed us in the show. Jdray 00:57, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
        • My good God people, THERE ARE DATES IN THE FST ! The sonogram, the date on Claire's ultrasound, the flight info board Des looks at in HEA, there are all there. The moderator has spoken on this issue. I really do not want to go over all the reasoning WHY we have the date break and WHY we have it where we have it b/c it has been explained I kid you not no less than 10 times above. I've watched every ep of season 6 at least 3-4 times each, I know just about every bit of dialogue so trust me this is the only solution that prevents no blatant continiuity breaks. If we deliberately insert them as some have suggested, what good is an encylopedia ??? LEHLegacy 01:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
          • There, there, LEHLegacy. Calm down. It's Jdray that causes all this trouble. I agree with you. Many people agree with us. Even ROBERT KS - the administrator of Lostpedia - agrees with us. Just some user called "Jdray" doesn't agree and some other folks (which I would love to hear what they have to say). And if you check above, all the messages that Jdray posts to me are a copy of my messages. He obviously does that to bother me; for him, this is personal (don't know why, I'm only helping here). Too bad that he sometimes has no idea of what he's talking about. Things like that can get you banned, you know. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:15, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
            • I am only getting annoyed b/c everything that we have done has been to our best attempts explained above. I for one haven't edited the timeline in anyway without describing the reasoning why I've done so here. I would like to see a mock write up from the anti-insert-a-week crowd on someone's homepage for us to look at. Again, I saw, how can we responsibly call ourselves LOSTpedia editors is we either a) produce a entry that has blatant contradictions or b) a glossed over mesh summary that is outlined by balloffame below ? LEHLegacy 12:39, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
            • How can we responsibly call ourselves lostpedia editors if we produce an entry that blatantly contradicts the one night and next day that we were shown in Sun/Jin's story?Jdray 14:34, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
              • Because that itself contradicts from "The Last Recruit" to "The End". This week may contradict "The Pacakge", but that's only one episode, without contradicting 5 others. As Dumbledore said, "For the Greater Good!". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:14, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
          • You are the one who is causing trouble by making this personal and using personal attacks. In this section alone Balk of Fame, Tim Thomason, and Buffy fan have all posted their belief that the timeline does not operte within the boundaries of time and in the sections above there are others who disagreed with the insertion of a week yet you feel the need to make it personal and attack me and me alone. I simply address your posts line for line. And another thing Robert KS has made a point in his one and only post above to not explicitly agree with either side. He intentionally laid out both sides to encourage further discussion and i quote him from above "the FST has some chronology problems that work to defy easy ordering of events" He goes on to say that the article might need "some explanatory matter at the top to describe the continuity problems or has to present several alternative timelines" Two more proposals i can get behind because they don't insert a week. I do not think you should purport to speak for him. When he is ready to weigh in he will. Jdray 06:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for copying my message above, eh. That's no "addressing your post line by line", it's copying. And inmature. If you want to discuss this, then do it right. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:27, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh, Dear God. You even copied the thank you message I posted to LEHLegacy in his talk page to the user User:Buffyfan123. Whoa man, that's so immature. You're copying everything I write. What, you are five years old? You're copying all my replies in this talk page, and now you copy my messages to other users as your messages to other users. That's so... ah, wow, I've never seen something like that. It's pathetic. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:32, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

What if we arrange the events like in the table below. This records everything without assigning false dates or false order.--- Balk Of Fametalk 07:01, May 28, 2010 (UTC) PoTimeline

  • Don't you think this is kinda glossed over ? It's like what I said above it's just mesh of bullet points. Yea, it doesn't create any contradictions, but at the same time it doesn't take into account the CANON lines of dialogue that have been used in the show describing the passage of days.LEHLegacy 12:39, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
    • It can take into account all those lines of dialogue. In Jack's section for instance, we mention the "date" of David's concert. In Locke's section, we can try to piece together when he joined the school and when Ben's went The Prince on the principal. But by not dating Sun's actions, and not ordering it before or after other actions, we avoid writing anything untrue. --- Balk Of Fametalk 12:51, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • HEY JDRAY. WHO THE $%&#% DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? I WROTE A REPLY AND YOU DELETED IT. I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT TO YOU SO BE CAREFUL.
My reply was: "Look at the reply I made to ROBERT KS. According to "The Last Recruit," Jin and Sun have spent a week in LA. Since after that, they match up with other characters, it should be mentioned that they were, at least, 5 days in LA so they matched up. I know, in "The Package", we only saw that they were two days in LA: but that's either: a) A horrible continuity error (most probable) or b) We only saw these two days but there were some days in the middle that we didn't see. The B option, which was made up by LOSTpedians, seems to work to fix the sense of the timeline and work it out." --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:38, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • There is no need to curse or shout. If i deleted one of your posts it was not done so intentionally but i am looking back through the history and i cannot see the edit that did that. Jdray 14:49, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ok here is the post you were talking about

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Timeline:Flash-sideways_timeline&diff=prev&oldid=902182 I think what must have happened was that we both tried to post something to the page at the same time. Your post in the section above that one also did not get posted to the page so you may need to repost that one as well. But calm down. No one is deleting your posts. Jdray 14:54, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

  • Actually when you edit a page and somebody edits it first you get a warning message and you have to combine both of the texts (it happened to me one minute ago, and I didn't delete anybody's posts, eh?). So I may not think it was an accident. Oh, BTW, I reported it. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 15:03, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Report it all day. I did not delete any post.Jdray 15:12, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Lostpedia does not record things that are made up by lostpedians. It records what was shown on the show. What was shown on the show for Jin/Sun in the afterlife was one night and Keamy came the next day. Jdray 15:00, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I like the approach. It is not glossed over and it takes into account the conflicting lines of canon dialogue.Jdray 14:31, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • How exactly is this different then what we have already ? I want to see a CONCRETE representation of how it's going to look. Can someone use my suggestion above and put it on another page ? LEHLegacy 15:44, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
      • Editing the entire timeline will take a lot of time, so I'd rather gauge support before I do it. Realize though that my format differs from the status quo. It assigns no date, because we can't date some events. It also doesn't order certain events. For instance, it neither says Ben blackmailed the Principal before Jin shot Sun (if so, they spent several days in the hotel) nor that Ben blackmailed after Jin shot Sun (if so, Locke and Sun wouldn't arrive at the ER at the same time). --- Balk Of Fametalk 01:35, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
      • Sean Sheep's proposal #2 in the "Time out of joint" section on this page directly below sounds a lot like this. I support it. It is not the only proposal I would be in favor of. Jdray 01:51, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Time Out Of Joint

In order to make any sense out of this, you have to assume that each person carries their own subjective time with them, and that time is not consistent with anyone else. Anyone who has attempted to write a story which accords with relativistic time-travel will be familiar with the issue. Even when a person is with another person, they may well not have the same time frame as that person. The only way to document this is to declare this up front, (the fact that any attempt to make a consistent "universal" timeframe is impossible, and to document where each person is, and what they do.

This can be done in one of two ways

  1. Ignore any attempt to put days, dates or anything else on this, and simply document a series of events. These could be labelled in sequence (There may be some issues about what occurred before what, but this could be got round by labelling as 1a, 1b, 1c ; 2a, 2b, 2c type sequence where all the 1's definitively occur before the 2's, but the a, b, c either occur simultaneously, or it is essentially indeterminate which occurs first). So long as this does not cause contradictions, I am not aware of any difficulty with such a sequencing (although I wouldn't have put that past the writers to throw that in), so it should in theory be possible to put events in order.
  2. Document for each character separately what they did, putting in a clear timeframe and dates for them, and X-Ref when they meet other characters, using headings, and link between the two.

In addition, I think that you should take seriously the observation I made (above) about the FS on April 22nd.,

There is precious little evidence that it actually existed at all before Sept 22nd, and it certainly does not seem to exist beyond the confines of LA; even people who should be in New York, Russia & Japan all appear in LA.--Sean Sheep 21:36, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

In other words, the FS is an Oomphalos universe, created intact with memories, everyone in it, when the plane passed over the island. The fact that David does not exist makes it meaningless that we can speculate about when he is born. Jack's appendix scar likewise, may not be the result of an operation; it is simply could be a a bleedthrough of the wound he received in The End.

You need to free your mind of the idea that time is universal; once you have done that, then it is possible to create other solutions.--Sean Sheep 16:41, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

      • Yes, that's why I suggested the above table. --- Balk Of Fametalk 01:57, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
  • This actually sounds interesting. So are we saying that time is relative for every person's point of view? Mmm, that actually seems to contradict "global dates", like the date of Oceanic 815, which was September 22 according to the producers. If we enter with this approach, then we would have to get a confirmation from the creators, because assuming that time doesn't flow normally, and the continuity errors can be justified, is an assumption after all. And a big one. So let's discuss happily about this. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:16, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Now all of a sudden it is interesting? But the numerous times this very same idea was raised above it wasn't? Sean Sheep first made this proposal way back on April 22 when he said

Has anyone actually considered the fact that the inconsistencies may be deliberate? In other words, we have been assuming that the FST is a timeline like the OT. However, this may not be the case. --Sean Sheep 21:36, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Balk of fame also brought up the idea again and I know I have said numerous times that the inconsistences were done on purpose by the writers to show us the properties of the afterlife - namely that it does not operate within the normal bounds of time. There is no such thing as "global dates" in the FST because there is no such thing as the globe in the afterlife. The date of Ocenic flight 815 was September 22 because the losties created that date in the afterlife they constructed for themselves after their deaths. That was the date of the flight on the OT and so that was the date that was in their consciousness. There is absolutely no problem with all of the action beginning on the 22. It is not an assumption that time does not flow normally. It was shown to us on the show. Jin/Sun experience one day. Sayid experiences a different period of time from them. Locke experiences a different amount of time from both of them. claire experiences a different amount of time. Because all these experiences are happening to them in the afterlife and that is their own creation. Jdray 19:16, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Completely agree with Sean sheep here. Jdray 16:53, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • How does the FST perhaps not exist before 9/22/04 ? Jack's mom says he got his appendix taken out at 7 Claire got pregnant. Kate got arrested. Sawyer went through the Academy. The characters certainly have ALTERNATIVE memories of their own lives before 9/22/04 in the FST. Listen, if you are going to explore the prospect about creating a TIMELINE page that doesn't really track time as we all understand it, I nudge to what James says above about getting more confirmation from someone involved with LOST because I still feel like it's your assumption vs mine. Again, I understand what Christian said, I would certainly be more open to this, but CONCRETE dates were given in the FST more than once. You're ignoring what's cannon in the show if we go with this approachLEHLegacy 18:44, May 28, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
One of your sentences is right but emphasizes the wrong word. The characters certainly have alternative MEMORIES of their lives before 9/22. These memories don't reflect events that happened. The clearest example of this is Jack's scar. Characters didn't enter the afterlife with general scars from their lives (Locke lacks his iconic eye scar), but Jack brought two from his final battle - scars on his neck and abdomen. When he saw the abdominal scar, he created a memory as the camera rolled, that of a long-ago appendectomy. He even said "I guess I remember that," because the memory was just forming. That's evidence, but simple reason also suggests they lived no full lives in the afterlife. If they lived entire lives, their afterlives would equal their real lives in significance. No. They created lives to deal with their baggage. [First thing they do when they deplane: collect their baggage.] Locke never crashed a plane. But he invented the memory to atone for the guilt of the people he hurt and killed. Jack and Juliet's marriage never failed. They chose one another as exes to replace the poor relationships with their real-life exes. Jack never read Through The Looking Glass to David. But he did to Aaron, and he projected this memory of his invented son.--- Balk Of Fametalk 01:55, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
As for confirmation Lost what better confirmation do we need than timelines that don't match up and Christian's words - there is no now? The only other time in the show that timelines didn't add up, Michael's off island adventures, the show threw in elaborate hints that you travel through time when you enter and leave the island, a concept with no other application in the show.--- Balk Of Fametalk 01:55, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
LEHLegacy's right, they have had alternate lives in the FST. If you ask me, I think they all lived their lives again but with now Jughead suceeding. That's only my opinion, no need to attack it. LEHLegacy, I'm with you here. Assuming that time doesn't flow normally needs a confirmation from the creators. You know what's funny? That Jdray had a problem with the week I assumed, but now with this bigger, greater assumption, that says that time doesn't flow normally, he doesn't have a problem. Ah... well, everyone has their own thoughts. The week can safely be assumed -nobody harmed-, but this new assumption may have a problem with some fans, which may not agree (yes, with the week they may also not agree, but it's safer and more logical to agree), and perhaps the whole Lost community. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:15, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
It is not an assumption that time does not flow normally. We were clearly shown that in the episodes by the timelines of the different characters not matching up. The week you assumed did not happen in the Jin/Sun timeline. Christian clearly states it so it is not a bigger greater assumption - it is what we were given in the last episode. The week cannot be asumed in the jin and sun story line because it didn't happen. Jdray 21:05, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
Please understand that Oceanic 815 could not have landed on September 22, 2004 because the afterlife does not begin until after the characters died. At the very least we know Jack lived until 2007. Jdray 21:05, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking about us voting about all that we've wrote in this page. Everyone can expose their ideas there, so whichever wins would make sense and the majority would agree with. What do you all think? --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 22:36, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

  • We could, but I'm still hoping we can convince each other what's right.--- Balk Of Fametalk 02:03, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

New style of the page/Voting

Hey, I really like the new style of the article! Anyway, about the voting and stuff. I wanted to hear suggestions from people. I was thinking about having three items and vote on one of them, these being:

1) Jin and Sun spent a week in LA

2) Jin and Sun didn't spend a week in LA

3) Time doesn't matter, it doesn't flow normally

If anyone has a new proposal that can be added, please tell me. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 04:39, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well, phrased like, that, the third choice looks like giving up. How about:
1) Date all events, giving Jin and Sun a week in their hotel.
2) Date all events, assigning a week between Jin and Sun's leaving their hotel and arriving at the hospital.
3) Order events with bullets, but don't date them.
4) List character actions separately without dates, as in the above table.
If we make a table, by the way, we may have discovered the true meaning of flash "sideways". --- Balk Of Fametalk 05:17, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
Complete agree with you, but my third option was the one discussed in the "Time out of joint" section, which provided some interesting info and some users may agree with it. Also, you didn't seem to take into account Jdray's suggestion, which was that no week happened in Jin/Sun's timeline (my option #2). --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 05:31, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
I thought the parallel character time lines, option 4, was the "time out of joint" idea. When I read the section, I thought it clicked completely with what I'd earlier thought. Within this option, no week passes for Sun and Jin or Sayid. --- Balk Of Fametalk 05:38, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
Ah! I see now. Then your option #3 may be redundant, because option #4 seems to work the same way. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 05:46, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
3 and 4 are similar, but someone suggested 3 first. The difference is that though neither dates the events between "LA X, Part 1" and "Everybody Loves Hugo", 3 at least orders them. 3 would look like:
*Sun and Jin have sex.
*Sayid learns Omer was "mugged". Nadia talks to Sayid.
*Keamy visits Sun and Jin.
*Omar picks up Sayid.
*Shootout.
This undated timeline doesn't say Sun and Jin spent two nights in the hotel. People might like this choice because we're ordering all events in one timeline. Problems will pop up though. Does Keamy visit Sun before or after Ben meets Locke? --- Balk Of Fametalk 06:38, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
If you want an answer to that, it means that you're seeing it as dates. According to the show, Locke must have met Ben first, because after that event he got to the hospital at the same time as Sun. However, proposal #3 and #4 appear to view them as independent events, so it really doesn't matter whether they met before or after. Anyway, if #3 or #4 is applied, we're going to have some problems with that kind of things. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:01, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
I don't want an answer. I asked to prove no answer exists - there are no dates. Locke must have met met Ben first, but only if Sun and Jin spent multiple nights in the hotel, which didn't happen. Option 3 forces us into problems like that. Option 4 doesn't because it doesn't assume events in one column precede those in any other. --- Balk Of Fametalk 01:07, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'll startoff by saying that no matter which option we choose I think we are going to need to put some type of explanatory paragraph at the beginning of the timeline to describe the continuity problems. I think at this point I am most in favor of showing each character's timelines seperately. This will allow the events of the Package to occur over one day and the other characters story lines to occur in their own time periods. The Package is confirmed by the conversation Jin & Sun have just before they have sex and the fact that Jin and Sun are wearing the same clothes then. Keamy would not give Jin/Sun a week without trying to get his money. Keamy comes the next morning. Sun would not have spent a week in the hotel with Jin without telling him she was pregnant. In Sundown Sayid's storyline takes place over 2 or 3 days. Sayid and Nadia would have been all over each other if they had been left alone for a week. Right now we have Liam Pace trying to get his brother out of jail 2 days after he was released from custody. And wasn't the benefit concert supposed to take place on the same night as the flight? Widmore said so to Desmond when Minkowski brings him to his office right after the flight. In the Candidate Claire says "a few days ago" after Locke is run over and Jack does the first surgery. The timeline does not flow normally. Have a blooper or continuity errors section? Just insert notes concerning the continuity problems? Put it all in chronological order without assigning any actual spans of time? Present several alternate timelines? Document for each character separately? Balk of fame's table above? Or date all events giving Jin/Sun AND Sayid AND Claire ETC. ETC. extra days to match them all up together? I am off to Vegas for a week or so. Jdray 08:10, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
Well I hope you can still help us while you're in Vegas. Anyway, what you wrote is right. However, they may be some counter-arguments for that theory. Let's see. If every Lostie has its own passage of time, has its own version of the Afterlife, then how come Sayid finds Jin when he's in the freezer? (because 2 days "have passed" for Sayid and only one for Jin). That would mean that the two timelines joined, but if and only if they've happened at the same time. Now, according to your arguments (and according to the show itself), Sayid stayed 2 days before being busted by Keamy, and Jin only one day. Having "normal flow" contradicts this, but having "variable flow" of time may also contradict this, because Sayid would only find Jin in the freezer if he would have some knowledge of Jin in the freezer (because of the "afterlife constants" and so-so). I think it's better to rule that as a continuity error, but that's why we're putting our opinions here. Well... I hope I made myself understood. Also, I know you support the "time out of joint" idea, but let's keep our personal votes in ourselves until we have to vote, in that way we can see this situation from all points of view. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 21:19, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
They developed separate timelines subconsciously, not actively. Sayid finding Jin supports this. They both were to meet Keamy and end up in the restaurant, and they did so on their own timelines, but destiny or whatever force drew all the characters to one another put them in the restaurant together, warping their timelines. And good catch on the concert Jgray - I don't know if Widmore said the concert was for that night, but waiters were laying the silverware on the 22nd.--- Balk Of Fametalk 02:05, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
About the concert thing, I just remember that Desmond told Eloise that he couldn't get Charlie. The concert was canceled for that night, I suppose that the later days Desmond told Charles that he would be able to get Charlie, so the concert was arranged again and Desmond sent Hurley to get Charlie. No error there. Also, subconsciously merging timelines seems to sound a little assumed, so I wouldn't go for that answer. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 02:46, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
Guys, I was out of town for a few days. My thoughts: Reading the proposal above and reiterating what I said above, options 4 to me still sounds like a cop out. James and I's avocation of adding the week break was a cop out and a loophole we saw in the show where we could "fix" the timeline despite both of us recognizing the issues caused by "The Package" and the subsequent simultaneous arrival of Sun and Locke at the hospital as most probably a blooper on the show's part. You guys are essentially doing the same thing (a cop out) by stretching Christian's words into a reality where you believe time doesn't pass normally. Now be advised, I understand the concept of time is up to interpretation in the FST, BUT nights still follow days and the words "today", "tomorrow", and "yesterday" still carry the same meaning in this timeline as they would normally. I believe the change you are advertising it much different than anything that's out there right now in this category in Lostpedia and that if you were to poll more editors than the ones that don't visit this page I think they would agree you're change is more radical. At this point though, I am kind of down arguing one way or the other, I just ask that however you want to frame the events, PLEASE AND WITH ALL RESPECT, do not remove or radically alter my episode bullet summaries from when I started writing them (I believe it's from Happily Ever After and onward - you'll notice a more descriptive style of writing). I spent a lot of time writing it and I would upset me if someone deleted it to rewrite it on their own. Again, I am fine with however you want to frame the headings cut and paste them wherever you agree to, just pls leave my summaries alone. LEHLegacy 15:03, June 1, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy
LEHLegacy may be right, guys. Nights and days still work the same way as in the normal ones, Christian never said, "Time doesn't flow normally here," he just said, "There's no 'now' here," that can be brought up to personal interpretation. So please let's all watch the episodes again, read carefully every proposal and then say whatever we want to say. By the way, LEHLegacy, did you see that the new page Flash sideways (that I think should be deleted), says, as a confirmed fact, that time doesn't flow normally in the FST? Of course I'm against that, I have no idea where they've taken that confirmation. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 02:58, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
How about we just make individual listings for each character's relative timeline? Obviously, Jin/Sun's timeline sharply differs from that of characters like Locke. This solution seems like it would solve that problem. Evil-pineapples 06:52, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
Option #4? Not everyone agrees. That's what the voting is for. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 14:33, June 9, 2010 (UTC)