The Dharma Initiative was in the possession of the sub in 1988

I see that under Literary techniques, where they mention the submarine, it states that the sub was in possession of the Others. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that the Sub was in possession of the Dharma Initiave in 1988 since The Purge only occured circa 1992? Thezerf 14 April 2009

Can we edit the name?

Hey guys, I was just wondering if we can change the "is" in the title to "Is?" lists it with a capital I and it's consistent with the "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead" title. Also, we all know the press releases aren't completely reliable. They're the only place to list "There's No Place Like Home" with a part 3 in the title. Thoughts? Alexisfan07 12 February 2009

Done. Robert K S (talk) 00:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks a ton. :) Alexisfan07 24 February 2009

Can we agree that this was Sun/Jin Centric?

  • Disagree. No "centricity". --Xbenlinusx 04:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree. The episode started with Sun's eye.

This episode was totally Sun/Jin centric.

I don't know how anyone could possibly think that this episode didn't have a centric. If anything, Because You Left didn't have a centric. --Bish-Fiscuit 04:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Neither episode had any centricity. Without flashbacks/forwards focusing on specific characters, the very definition of centricity doesn't apply.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Damon and Carlton said you would be able to tell clearly who it was centric of. Its Jin, not Sun. All the Sun scenes really deal with Jin btw. Four4elements 04:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking Jin centricity. Sun's few scenes were mostly her yelling at Ben and sitting in a car with Jack. Jin was the focus of the episode. ShadowUltra 04:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely Jin and Sun, with no flashback to distinguish between the two, it's both of them. And with the way the camera cut in between the two constantly. Flashbacks have become less essential, so we can still have character centrics without them and can still have a denotation without them. Alexisfan07 12 February 2009

  • Agree. Damon and Carlton did say that. I take back my initial claim that it was Ben-centric (as the episode teaser test suggested). Upon further thought, this was definitely Sun/Jin, or if not, then just Jin. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

Just follow the has always been the sign of whose centric the episode is. It went from Sun, to Jin, and back. Plotwise, the episode was about Jin time traveling and reuniting with the group, and off island it was about Sun learning that Jin is not dead, and agreeing to go back to the Island. Also Jin's wedding ring was an important symbol in the episode (MaxMoney37 04:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC))

Max, did you follow the whoosh in "Because You Left?" Was there a character featured more before and after the whoosh? Alexisfan07 12 February 2009
I did follow the whoosh in "Because You Left" and the fact that it was not focused on one or two characters meant to me that it was non centric, the key here is that it did move back and forth specifically between Sun and Jin. (MaxMoney37 04:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC))

Agree with Jin and Sun, but just Jin would be better than "N/A." Just because there's no flashbacks or flashforwards doesn't mean there can't be a centric character. I thought that was the reason for switching to the designation "centric" instead of "flashback/forward".-- COMPOSSIBLE  Talk  Contribs  04:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Agree. A the very least it should be Jin centric. The idea that centricity can only be cited if there is a flashback or flashforward is ridiculous. By the definition of centric, Jin, and maybe even Sun as well, are the centric characters. Centric, meaning the episode largely centers on them. A flashback/flashforward isn't required to determine centricity.--HaloOfTheSun 04:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, it's about the character development and it's good that we changed it to character centricity. It fits this season much better. I still say it's both of them. Alexisfan07 12 February 2009
  • Jin centric, because it felt like it was all about Jin, and was there for Danielles story, so I think its Jin centric. The episode moved from off/on island between Jin and Sun the same way it did with And Found, so I can see how people think its a Sun/Jin episode, I think we should label it Jin, because Suns story seemed connected and all about Jin. Buffyannesummers23 05:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I think it's a Sun episode too because they flashed between them back to back and she led the off-island story. I mean, Kate and Sayid were barely in it and it was clearly not Jack or Ben off-island centric. Alexisfan07
  • Agree that is is indeed Jin and Sun-centric. We have to remember that since there are no traditional flashback/forward episodes for now -- and when there are, only in the first five minutes -- we have to use other means of determining that quality. While I was watching, I definietly assumed this would be considered a Jin & Sun ep.--Jeff 05:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Although the previous 3 episodes had an actual flashback focused on Hurley, Kate and Desmond, this one didn't, but there were cuts between Sun and Jin on/off Island, and the focus had alot to do with them. Unlike the season premier, where the focus was everyone, and the Oceanic 6 plus Desmond, all were doing there own stories, so it was various/multi. This one felt like a Sun/Jin focus on/off Island. Buffyannesummers23 05:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree that it is Sun/Jin-centric, at least during the first half. The episode began with the focus on Sun, then switched over to Jin when the story jumped back to the island. It was a little harder to tell closer to the end of the episode, because there seemed to be a good deal of focus on Charlotte, too. Dman176 06:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Other I think it would be more precise to seperate the concepts of flashbacks and centricity. All the previous episodes had flashbacks or flashforwards, and the infobox should reflect that. This episode had only centricity, so it should be the first infobox to use the 'centricity', but it should also specify that flashbacks/forwards=none. The previous episodes should use flashes, since they actually had them, and it's easier to just list the flash than debate centricity when we don't have to. For this episode I would say it's a Jin & Sun centric episode. --Jackdavinci 07:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree Definately felt like a Sun/Jin episode. Tranquility 10:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • If we were to get extremely technical, the opening scene with Sun's phone call is technically a flashback, since the linear off-island story ended in "The Little Prince" with her getting out of the car. --Pyramidhead 12:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • That's exactly the way I saw it.--Baker1000 12:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree. I think the only question is whether it is "Jin centric" or "Jin & Sun centric." --michael_is_NOT_in_the_coffin 14:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • It was Jin centric all the way.
  • Jin AND Sun centric. It may devote more time to Jin, but the fact that Sun decides to switch allegiances between Widmore and Ben at the end of the episode seems crucial to me.--Forloyo 18:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • It seems to be unanimous. At least for the time being, can a SysOp/Admin please update the character centricity on the Season 5 nav box? --michael_is_NOT_in_the_coffin 19:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree. It is obviously Jin and Sun centric. The intire episode dealed with Jin's suposed death, and Sun's search for him. --Caio_wgm
  • Agree The on-island plot focused on Jin, and the off island plot dealt with Sun. It was Sun/Jin-centric, if not, Jin. Can an admin please change it?
  • Agree Sun and Jin-centric. I'm not really understanding what's going on here. Now the Season Nav says Various and the episode picture has been changed to a non-Sun/Jin picture (when we generally use the centric character for the pic), but it still says Jin and Sun in the episode info box, and the Sun and Jin navs are still at the bottom.--Baker1000 21:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, uh, "Various" is only marginally better than "N/A".--HaloOfTheSun 21:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Agree Jin was definitely the main character of this episode, more than Desmond was of Jughead and Kate was of The Little Prince. Sun/Jin would be better, but Jin only would be ideal.

Yeah, let's change the picture back and change the "various" to Jin and Sun. Alexisfan07 12 February 2009

  • Agree Please change it to Jin and Sun, its clearly their episode. The episode technically even starts out with a sun flashback, since it starts moments before the last episode ended (I know thats a stretch), after this scene with Sun, it goes right to a close up of Jin. Plus the whole story with the ring, carried their story throughout the whole episode.Mattfarley1008 22:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree Both plotlines almost always follow Jin and Sun. The island plotline follows Jin during the time he is with the French team and only switches to the rest of the Losties when he meets up with them. The LA plotline follows Sun and leaves the other O6 behind when she goes with Ben. Smarmon 12:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree This episode is OBVIOUSLY Sun/Jin-centric. Can someone change it already? Bennn 13 February 2009

  • Agree I said my comment before, but I think someone should get an admin to read all this so he can change it.

Futurama Similarites?

Did anyone notice that the flashes becoming more frequent was similar to what happened in "Time Keeps On Slippin'", an episode of Futurama? Nick2010 04:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Great catch. See also: Katey Sagal who plays Helen did the voice of Leela. --Gluphokquen Gunih 04:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Wasn't that what the show Quantum Leap was all about? IMO, I don't think there's enough to credit Futurama with the idea.--Lucky Day 01:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Damon Lindelof is apparently a fan of The Simpsons, (and maybe Futurama) but I was just noting an interesting similarity, there isn't really any evidence of a connection. Nick2010 01:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
        • I wouldn't say there was any similarity. They weren't exactly time travelling in Futurama it was something very different; so it could be said the time flashes have similarity with any show where 'something happens alot'. Integrated (User / Talk) 09:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

2007 or 2008?

It's time to settle this. People keep switching the present-day Oceanic Six events on all season 5 pages between 2007 and 2008. Which is it? As the Jeremy Bentham obituary is seemingly canon (or at least deuterocanon), I say we go with 2007. ShadowUltra 04:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's impossible to tell whether it's late '07 or early '08. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  05:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Then something needs to be done other than using an inconsistent dating format. ShadowUltra 05:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  05:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The best hint we have is Desmond's stroll through a street in England looking for Theresa Spencer. It was plainly autumn. Unless we're in late 2008, this had to be late 2007. Robert K S (talk) 05:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I've been under the assumption that it was mid-to late '07 since the first flash to this time period in season 3. Let's just play it by ear ... I know that doesn't make the people who edit the calendar articles too happy, but better to be safe than sorry, right? Also, in the articles, instead of listing it as 2007 or 2008, we could make the header read "Approx. three years later" instead :) --Jeff 05:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I know it's not canon, but if 815 crashed on 22 Sept 04, the date of Lost's premiere, what if we assume until we hear differently that the first flashforward, when Jack tells Kate at the airport that "We have to go back!", was 23 May 2007, the same day that Through The Looking Glass aired? That gives us 3 years and change after they left the Island. We may never get a more precise date from the show itself; it would just be our best approximation. --Emissary23 06:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been going by the "Three Years Later" and "Three Years Ago" blurbs at the beginning of certain episodes, taking into account that the Oceanic 6 were rescued during the first week of January 2005. Plus, even Penny and Kate have specifically mentioned that they've all been off the island for 3 years. I agree that until the exact year or date is specified by Damon and Carlton (possibly via a Q&A in one of their podcasts), it might be best to edit the headers to read "Off-Island: Three Years Later" or something similar. Dman176 06:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Agree Since we cannot yet pinpoint the year, "three years after rescue' or somesuch is advised. --Jackdavinci 07:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
If we know they were rescued in January 2005, and previous episodes have said "three years later" after showing a rescue scene, wouldn't it be January 2008? --LOSTinDC 13:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Something that happened in January '05 compared to something that happend in say Oct. '07 or March '08 would still be ABOUT 3 years, and most people would round up or down. I asked this somewhere else on the site but I can't recall where: does anyone remember if the Bentham obit had the newspaper's actual date on it? Since these events are taking place just days afterward.--Jeff 15:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Production notes section request

No one has yet (as of this writing) but: Can we refrain from putting any notations about this being Rebecca Mader's last episode or anything like that yet until after next week's episode airs so we are sure? I'm thinking since Ian Somerhalder, Michelle Rodriguez, Cynthia Watros and Adewale Akkinoye-Agbage were each credited a few more episodes after their characters died. Maggie Grace was too .. but as a "guest" for playing her corpse, hehe. But anyway, let's wait until her name is officially removed from the credits.--Jeff 05:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Lets wait until her name is removed I agree, we dont know if her dead body or if she will appear as a vison/ghost like Ana did after death, yet. I shall not list it as last episode yet, until we see in the new 2 or 3 episodes. Buffyannesummers23 05:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't disagree about waiting; it's prudent. But she sounds like she's done, for now anyway. Amuk 16:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


The transcript for this episode finishes at the end of act 1. For anyone who has seen the episode, can you please flesh it out a bit more?

Korean and French help?

For our friends that have foreign language talents (Klingon excepted), and who have the episode recorded, please fill in the [Speaking Korean] and [Speaking French] in This Place is Death transcript. Kamsa hamnida et merci ! Robert K S (talk) 05:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Did Charlotte actually speak any Klingon? One reviewer thought she did when she was all addled but I thought she was speaking Korean before she announced This Place Is Death. (I think in Klingon the proper phrase transliterated would be "This is a Good Place to Die" and some subtle context could be missed if not careful).
Translated the Klingon for "This is a Good Place to Die", if I got it correctly it should be Heghlu'meH QaQ lanvam
Also, is anyone able to translate some of the hieroglyphs on the Temple?

--Lucky Day 17:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I translated french parts of the Act I... I am one of the admin of the french part of Lostpedia... I can help you ! Desperate july 20:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I would very much like to know the untranslated part that Charlotte says since there is a shot of jins face and he seems very disturbed from what he hears. I also believe that this is what sends him off on making locke promise not to bring Sun back. Another thing I would like translated is that bit of heyroglyphics that appears on the side of the "temple" that contains a CV near where Montad lost his arm in 88. Were they the same glyps inside the swan? I think I saw similar characters. --Enzovalenzetti 13:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Because You Left

In Because You Left, Jack asked Ben "When was the last time you saw him? I mean Locke." Ben replies "On the island.". So I don't get it when Jack says towards the end of this episode, "You said John never came to see you." Ben replies, "That's true, Jack. I went to see him." Is that just Ben up to his old tricks? --Makiwolf 08:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ben can go to see a dead person, but a dead person cannot go to see someone.

Also, Locke, at the time, was moonlighting as Jeremy Bentham. SO semantically, Jack was asking the wrong question. --Frenk Melk 16:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Locke never gave Ben the ring. And perhaps they never met again. Perhaps Ben took the ring from Locke's body, as he's a clever guy and thought it might be useful. And all of this might be wrong, we don't know. But we cannot assume that Locke and Ben met again just because of the ring, right?--Salvora 00:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

When Ben asked Jack if Locke had said what happened to the rest of them when the Island moved, and Jack said no, he hadn't, Ben's response sounded a bit suspicious. He said, "then I guess we'll never know." But my guess was that he asked Jack in the first place because he wanted to see if he could hide something from Jack, and if Jack didn't know he'd continue to hide it. Made me think that Ben may have had a hand in something evil related to this.

I just read this as Ben lied to Jack. Locke did see Ben after he left the island. For all we know Ben killed Locke? Integrated (User / Talk) 10:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Too Obtuse?

I added this episode reference: "Christian tries to tell Locke the name of his son but Locke is teleported away before he can finish. (5x1)" because a very similar thing happened to Desmond when Daniel tried to tell him his mother's name. Kajillion 09:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Good one --CharlieReborn 10:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


Is anyone else starting to finally really feel a little bit sorry for Ben? (BTW, I think Michael Emerson did an amazing job in the van scene) You really get the sense that, despite whatever else he's been up to, he is at least now trying to help them, and that he knows he's been guilty of a whole horde of things, but he's isolated himself in his quest for control over everything to the point of utter loneliness. He seems to be a real tragic Gollum sort of character. Dude, Ben, you should have been honest and upfront with them (oh, and friendly) from the start and none of this would have happened...--NotAnOther 11:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Ever since we learned the Wheel was knocked off axis I wondered if this was something Ben did on purpose and if he is responsible for putting everyone in danger in the first place... perhaps he knew this when he stole the job of turning the Wheel in the first place. I think back to promising Jack one thing then allowing Locke to blow up the submarine. He would have created the time skips to force the O6 to return to make things right. On the other hand, I wonder if he stole the Wheel man job so he could leave the island and avoid dying like Charlotte.--Tymes 18:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It may have just been ego. Ben thought he was so important to be banished (when in fact stay or leave it meant no difference), Locke thought he wasn't important enough to make a difference in moving the wheel. Once Locke heard Jacob I would have thought it would have been in Ben's every interest to get Locke off the Island. Its also possible Ben would have outlived Charlotte if she was amongst the first group of Darma's to get to the Island. Its also does not appear that absolute time on the Island matters as Sawyer and Juliet get nose bleeds at the same time despite Juliette being there longer.--Zaggs 21:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I have had sympathy for Ben for a long time. I think he's done a lot of bad things, but I suspect his goals may be perfectly honest and decent. I'm confident a better side of him will be revealed. ( I also think that the worst thing he's done, was to kill Widmore's soldier, but that he did when he lost control over his emotions. And I suspect he will never kill Penny - or any other Widmore's child, if there are others). --Salvora 00:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It has always bothered me that Ben was the Other chosen to raise Alex. Supposing that the Others took Danielle's baby the way she said they did, and putting together that idea with the fact that the Others can't have babies, one would assume that they'd want to steal the baby for research or whatever. But surely, if this were the case, there'd be lots of Others who wanted to be parents but couldn't be. So why Ben? He doesn't seem like he'd be particularly good with children, he's never been married as far as we know, and he was probably extremely busy being the leader and I wouldn't think he'd have enough time or even want to be a father to Alex. So, at first, I thought maybe (somehow) he actually was her father but didn't want her to know. However, now that we have this Danielle time-skip that can't be the case. So, I'm just wondering if maybe the reason why they gave him the baby (other than because of the fact that he might need a daughter to use as a pawn one day or another) because he actually had a child, maybe a daughter, and that she left the island for some reason/died/whatever. And then there's his obvious attachment to just makes me wonder whether Ben actually had a relationship with her and maybe a child that he lost. Maybe Charlotte? 4s8a15m16a23n42tha 12:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Locke and the wheel

If Locke stopped the island skipping in time why do the rest still have to get back to the island —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simo9852 (talkcontribs) 2009-02-12T07:41:51.

First, do we know that Locke stopped the island skipping in time? I guess, if he did, we don't know when they are. If they have, hopefully this will take us to the Dharma period that started off the season. --Makiwolf 17:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the Wheel article "Locke was ordered by Christian Shepard to set the wheel back on track to stop the Island skipping through time." Simo9852 07:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Doesn't Christian Shepherd tell him directly it will? Once he turns it, the wheel will move normally again.--Lucky Day 01:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I think this is like when people "die" at the end of an episode - we don't know if they are really dead or not til the next episode at least -- similarly we won't know exactly what reattaching the wheel will do until at least the next episode. Maybe they stop flashing but are stuck in the time period they last entered? Maybe they stop flashing but the island is still moving? --Jackdavinci 17:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The Wheel article did read as reflected above; I fixed that. Christian chided Locke for not personally moving the Island, said everyone had to come back, and told him, "Now – on the other side of this column here is a wheel – slipped off its axis – all you have to do is give it a little push." He did not say a word about stopping the skipping through time. The original source is the show, not a page.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 14:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The Wheel of Time

Thanks to this episode we now know there is a direct connection between the donkey wheel and how time moves on the Island.

Time moved slower on the Island than outside of it when the wheel was frozen and time was skipping when the wheel was skipping itself.--Lucky Day 18:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Time DIDN'T move slower or faster. It moved at the same pace. Recall The Constant and the freighter calendar, and also the aprox. time when the Oceanic6 appeared at the outer world. I'm with the theory that entering the island at a wrong bearing will "instant-shot" you to a determined time (think Daniel's payload and Ray's body). The frozen wheel was FROZEN, time was struck also and nothing anormal happening with it. --Comfortably.Floyd 22:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • This question has been going round and round. Time moving slow is a popular theory that explains such things as Young Walt and Old Walt? I thought the writers confirmed slow time theory in an interview. Has something different been confirmed that I don't know about?--Lucky Day 01:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I believe I remember an interview or podcast in which the producers debunked a slower time on the island. Back when the plane originally crashed, it was September 22nd both on and off the island; Rousseau arrived to the island in 1988 - thus on the island for ~16 years when the Losties crashed in 2004; etc. --Makiwolf 07:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • It's a popular theory among people who don't pay attention to the huge amounts of evidence to the contrary. Everything presented on the show suggests time moves at exactly the same pace on and off the island. People grow too attached to their theories and begin to put them before evidence. Integrated (User / Talk) 10:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • We know that Faraday visits The Orchid when the Dharma Initiative is still constructing it so either they will continue to skip through time until The Oceanic Six return or they are stuck in the late 70's early 80's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xtreme777 (talkcontribs) 2009-02-14T06:36:23.

Again, some of the unanswered questions are merely that

For example "Why does Daniel, at some point in his future, tell Charlotte to never return to the Island?" is by far too obvious. Dan knows Charlotte dies in the current timeline, so later he travels back in time to warn Charlotte (say, in the same time he visits the orchid) to never come back to the island so she doesn't die. Also I believe the answer to the question "Why is the donkey wheel "broken" when Locke finds it?" is kinda given by the conversation Christian and John have down in the cave. Locke should've turned the wheel and not Ben, so now the wheel is malfunctioning. --Timich 13:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

A set of weekly edits and why they were removed:

  • Why does Daniel, at some point in his future, tell Charlotte to never return to the Island?
    • see above--Lucky Day 01:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Why is the wheel "broken" when Locke finds it?
    • its obviously connected with the time skipping - a living metaphor. since Locke is being told he had to do it and not Ben and he needs to bring up those who left they are connected as well.

How does Robert know about the Monster?

    • he went into the Cerberus Vent and learned of the Monster, or was changed by the Island
  • How does Robert know about the Monster?
    • see above

--Lucky Day 17:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the following unanswered question should be removed: "What happened on the Island and to Locke after he turned the wheel?" This is kind of like asking: "What will happen next week?" --LOSTinDC 18:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

"Why does Daniel, at some point in his future, tell Charlotte to never return to the Island?"--this question is bad for a number of reasons, but the one not yet pointed out here is that it doesn't even have proper antecedent basis in the facts as presented in the show. That it was Daniel who was the scary man who warned Charlotte was Charlotte's theory. We haven't seen the scary man and we don't know for sure it was Daniel. Robert K S (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Something that's been bugging me for the last few weeks: Write your questions in present tense! I keep noticing questions written in past tense and it's getting frustrating to keep fixing it over and over again. Please see LP:EMOS.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Why was the wheel not frozen when Locke entered the chamber?
    • because Ben released it and now its off its axis skipping. This answer couldn't be plainer and implies the Wheel acts outside normal timestreams.
    • I'm pretty sure the chamber and wheel were still very, very cold, even though the wheel wasn't frozen to the wall. DavisJ3608 04:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

One of the green flashes, showing icicles on the walls of the chamber

  • I'm tempted to remove the question on Christian Shepherd and why he can't help Locke. The obvious answer is he's dead (hence the lamp to be seen) but I don't think we fully know the answer yet as he could even be the Smoke Monster. Anyone else agree or disagree?

--Lucky Day 01:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Answers to Continuity Errors

I've removed the following answers to these questions:

  • Danielle shoots Robert, turns and spots Jin. Attempting to shoot Jin, she draws back the bolt of the rifle to extract the spent casing and load a fresh round. She then fired several rounds in quick succession. Much too quick to reload the bolt action weapon.
    • It's possible to fire a centerfire bolt-action rifle at a similar ROF as a semi-automatic rifle; one only needs to extract and chamber a new round as the firearm is recoiling from the previous shot. There's enough time for someone to fire two shots in the time allocated when Danielle fires twice at Jin as he is running away, and subsequently the third too.
  • Jin says he knows how to get to the Radio Tower, but in "Through the Looking Glass", he was one of the three people to stay in camp to ambush the Others. Furthermore, he joined the other survivors at the 815's front section and then went back to the beach camp. Jin never went to the Radio Tower.
    • However, that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't know how to get to the Radio Tower. Jack's plan was for the three shooters to join the others after their job was complete.
      • Jin never directly says that he knows how to get to the radio tower. He confirms that he can get back to camp from the tower which doesn't require him to know where the tower is. It would be much easier to find the well known location of the camp from an unknown location as opposed to the reverse.

They might be legitimate answers but I hesitate to remove them as errors just yet. I'll leave that to someone else smarter than I am.--Lucky Day 01:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Episode references, Montand's arm

How is Montand losing an arm a reference to Exodus, Part 1?--Tfox846 14:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • On the trek to the Black Rock, as they were entering the Dark Territory, Rousseau says, "This is where Montand lost his arm." It was such an arbitrary and random comment that it had bugged many fans since, then so I'm happy they answered it Hansvon 14:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC).
    • Okay, thanks. I didn't remember that and there's no mention of it on the Exodus, Part 1 page. Should there be, to clarify how this references that episode?--Tfox846 15:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I just added this reference. As they are making their way to the Black Rock, Danielle declares they have entered the Dark Territory, and says "This is where it all began... where my team got infected... where Mortand lost his arm." However, Mortand lost his arm at the Temple, so either the Temple is in the Dark Territory or we've got a continuity error.Willclarke 02:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Does Vincent find this arm and bring it back to the camp? What episode was that ? kb1pkj

Close, but no ... Vincent found Roger Linus' arm. It still had the van's keys in its hand. --Jeff 15:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Ah , yes... Good point. Now I remember the van rolling down the hill and the Credence 8-track --Kb1pkj 15:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Three Dog Night, not CCR. --Gluphokquen Gunih 21:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Could the whole severing-of-the-arm thing possibly be a reference somehow to Beowulf (i.e. when Beowulf rips Grendel's arm off during the first conflict)? Dreams in irish 19:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Knowing Damon and JJ, it could just as easily be a reference to Star Wars, where all sorts of characters lose arms.    Willo    talk    contribs    email   06:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually this reminded me of Stephen King's It. At the beginning of the book and movie the main character's little brother loses his arms to the monster in the storm drain.

Mysterious Box

So I just rewatched Charlotte's death on the abc player, and I saw something strange. Call me crazy (others have) but did any one else see about 10 seconds of a box on the side of the creek right after Charlotte died? There's a perfect wooden rectangle propped up on the bank, upright of Daniel. Starts at 34:35, is visible until 34:44. I was thinking Casket, but that might be just because we saw Christian S. right after. --Omglocke 16:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Just looks like a plank of wood to me.--Baker1000 17:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I see said crate, but it looks closer to something the dynamite was in rather than a coffin.--Zaggs 05:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed blooper

Removed this blooper:

  • Danielle gives the date of arriving on the island as November 15th 1988. In "Pilot, Part 2", Sayid says the message Danielle left had been playing for 16 years and 5 months as of the day following the crash of flight 815 (September 23rd 2004). Furthermore in "Through the Looking Glass" we also find out that Danielle had left the message at the radio tower 3 days before Alex was born which would have been 2 months after Danielle first arrived on the island. Therefore the message had been playing for approximately 15 years and 7 months.

Sayid did the math in his head and since that time everyone had just take him at his word. If anything, it would have been a blooper had he been spot on. Hansvon 14:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought she said she left port on that date. Robert K S (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I typed that up. I'm putting it back because i still think it's an important piece of information. From the beginning of the show we have been told she had been on the island for 16 years and 5 months. Even her very own first words were "16 years, has it really been that long". By his own account, Sayid admitted he was skilled at mathematical equations. Given this episode was not written by the original writers of the pilot it is clearly a blooper that can be masked as a mistake by Sayid. If someone wants to incorporate it into trivia or explain that Sayid's math might have been off then go for it --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 17:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I thought, too, that Danielle told Jin they left on November 15. Also, we know Danielle is 7 months pregnant, but did she deliver Alex at 9 months? --Makiwolf 18:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Sayid based his calculation on the length of the iteration of the distress call in Pilot Part 2. Perhaps he didn't take into account that the length of time it took to recite the increasing iteration number would make the iteration interval longer as time went on. It takes a lot longer to say 1,000,000 than it does to say 1. That means the original message would have been shorter than 30 seconds.--Rsf0000001 18:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Also take into account the 30 seconds was an estimate, not a stop-watch to the microsecond perfect timing. And over thousands of multiples any error in accuracy even very slight will translate to days and weeks over the long term. --Kb1pkj 20:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
And the difference between 16 years, 5 months and 15 years, 8 months comes to 29.9 seconds and 28.5 seconds per iteration, an easy and small enough mistake to make with such a fast calculation. JamesyWamesy 05:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Yea I don't see this as a blooper, more of a clarification. I suggest move it to trivia, say Sayid's estimate was wrong. Integrated (User / Talk) 10:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a blooper?

Jin says he knows how to find his camp from the radio tower. However, Jin was one of the five survivors who never went to the radio tower with Jack in "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1." Instead he stayed behind at the beach to shoot the dynamite traps.

  • Jin, Sayid, and Bernard were to follow the group to the tower after they ambushed the Others. Jin doesn't know where he is on the island to know which way to go to get back to where he thinks the camp would be. He would probably know how to return to the camp from the radio tower. At the very least, he would have his bearings. --Makiwolf 18:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • They never went to the tower. Altogether, they joined in the plane front section. --Comfortably.Floyd 23:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Maybe you could say Jin could find his way back from the tower, but considering he wouldn't really know how to get there in the first place since he's never been there sort of throws that out the window. Except now all of a sudden he knows where it is.--HaloOfTheSun 03:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Not necessarily. Jin was going to follow the French to the tower, then find his way "home" from there.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Definitely not a blooper. It's totally reasonable to assume that Jin would have at least been given general directions from the camp to the radio tower before the rest of the group left -- Sun probably would have explained in Korean. But, in any case, the fact that Jin says he can find his way back doesn't imply that he knows the way. It just means he's confident enough that he can find it. He must have at least a general sense of direction on the island, and this statement could merely reflect his confidence in that.

The Temple

Can we totally state that the ruins that Jin and the science expedition found were The Temple? Because The Temple, as we know it, was the place were the Others headed for shelter in Season 3, and it would be strange that this "safe place" was the same as the one that the Monster protects so viciously. I just can't imagine the Others living with the Monster, as they don't control it. These could be other ruins, as there are many of them scattered through the Island. --   Calick    talk    contributions    email   15:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it was the safe place precisely because the Monster protected it? Maybe they know the tricks to avoid being torn apart? Robert K S (talk) 15:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Maybe the fact that they lived within the temple makes them Others. The Science expedition members seemed normal in most ways, however they turned into psychopathic killers. Danielle's lover tells her that he doesn't want anything to harm her or the baby , yet in the next moment tries to shoot her. --Kb1pkj 15:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Danielle's lover says: "It's not a monster, it's a security system guarding that temple." Now, there could be multiple temples, but it seems more likely that the safest place on the island is the place that the smoke monster protects, not that there are two temples - one for the monster; and another one that Ben sends his people to. --LOSTinDC 16:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. There is no confirmination that the area where the monster came from is actually the temple that Ben represented... also why does it have a Dharma logo? --     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email   22:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Latest audio podcast confirms that this is not the actual temple.--HaloOfTheSun 03:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I'd hate for people to jump to the conclusion that this is the Temple based on what one silly frenchman said. Integrated (User / Talk) 10:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • What they actually said was, it's not the actual temple, it's one of the walls surrounding the temple and you might have to go a litt further beyond that to reach the actual temple. So it IS part of the temple, much like the greenhouse is part of the Orchid.--Baker1000 12:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Actually, the Others can control the Monster. Remember what Ben did in "The Shape of Things to Come". I'm almost certain that Richard could do the same. And if they can control Smokie, then his home is the safest place for them to go. QuiGonJinnBe mindful of the Living Force... 20:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
      • The Others can't control the Monster, otherwise Ben wouldn't have told the survivors to run like hell once Smokey showed up in the Barracks. They can only summon it from the Barracks (maybe from more places). So, unless the Monster doesn't attack them (which I seriously doubt, as Ben and Juliet had to run when encountering it), the temple of the Monster is not THE Temple. In conclusion, we should create a "Temple of the Monster" article. --   Calick    talk    contributions    email   01:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Centrictity trivia

"This is the first episode featuring centricity without flashbacks or flashforwards." The Constant technically didn't have any flashbacks or flashforwards, only time travel, yet is a Desmond centric episode. Does that count as well? --Golden Monkey 16:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Everything in this episode was either a flashforward or a flashback. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
I agree, this should be removed--Lucky Day 17:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
No, I agree - there are no flashbacks or flashforwards - in every other episode, we've seen the at least one character in different time periods - this is the first one where every character on screen is portrayed in only one time period
The Constant was a flashback to when Desmond turned the Swan failsafe key and lept in time. And actually I thought this episode was flashless too but others have pointed out that the very beginning is actually a Sun flashback. --Jackdavinci 17:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Is Jin the first Other?

According to Danielle, the others were the carriers of the sickness. In this episode, Danielle acusses Jin of being the carrier. Could it be in Danielle's mind, Jin was the first Other?--Dawgmatic 18:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Doubtful, because she also says she never saw The Others, and she had face to face interaction with Jin.--Jdavyd 18:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • No dude, remember that when something didn't happen, returns to the 'past person mind' in their present, just like happened with Desmond when Faraday talked to him about his mother. So, in the 'real present' Rousseau said that he never saw The Others, but in the new remember, she remembers Jin in 1988... the only problem is that in the real present, she is actually dead.
    • This is totally incorrect. I'm not sure who wrote this. Daniel has very clearly explained to us, the viewers, that whatever happens in the past has always happened in the past, and it is impossible to alter things that happened. Rousseau always saw Jin first, and she always thought he was the carrier of the sickness. Desmond is the ONLY one who this doesn't apply to Integrated (User / Talk) 10:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Says who? As far as we know planted memories only apply to Desmond. Daniel specifically calls Desmond unique and says the rules don't apply to him.--Dawgmatic 20:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I disagree. That does not explain why Charlotte suddenly remembers Daniel being the weird person that told her not to come back to the island. --You Get A Star 23:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
      • In what way is that related..? That happened before Daniel had actually time travelled back to DHARMA and spoke to Charlotte as a child so doesn't that throw a proverbial spanner in your theory? Charlotte remembered then, if anything, because she was experiencing some kind of regression to previous memories of her life, hence her random comments. Integrated (User / Talk) 10:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • To me Jin being with the team does not appear to be a new event, Danielle was about to dive in to cavern below the "temple" along with the rest of the team to rescue Montand. Jin stopped her, thus saving her from the "sickness". Since She hung around until post 815 crash, I would believe that Jin has always been there to stop her from going in. Remember Daniel's speech on changing the string of time. You can't do it, you can only hang on for the ride. Daniel telling the Others to bury Jughead, Locke giving Richard the compass, Daniel telling young Charlotte to stay away or die. These have always happened. Daniel also said that Desmond was special and that the rules dont apply to him. Meaning that a message can be sent to Desmond via a new memory he gets. However the greater rules do apply, meaning Desmond has always carried the message to Eloise.Jnorton 05:31, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Exactly. Spot on. Integrated (User / Talk) 10:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
  • The whole question to begin with is moot. "Could it be in Danielle's mind, Jin was the first Other?" - that is all completely relative. It doesn't matter who Rousseau "thought" the first Other was, especially since "first" is a relative concept anyhow. Furthermore, since we still don't know the real definition of what makes an Other an "Other", there's no point in discussing whether or not Jin may or may not qualify, regardless of his order of recognition by a French woman.--MonsterEatsthePilot 03:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't think "first" is relative. It's not relative. "First" isn't relative. Integrated (User / Talk) 08:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Saying it over and over again doesn't make it more true. "First" is absolutely relative when dealing with time travel. The only way to not consider it relative is if you are pinpointing specific titles for characters. For example, if you like you might note that Jin was the "first" Other that Rousseau ever saw in person (not necessarily the first she was affected by, not necessarily the first to see her, and certainly not necessarily the first Other ever. ) Calling Jin the first Other makes as much sense as calling Jack the "first" 815 survivor.--MonsterEatsthePilot 03:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Cabin Fever Reference

In Cabin Fever, we never hear exactly how Christian tells Locke to "save the island". All we get is the following dialogue between Locke and Ben (emphasis added):

BEN: Did he tell you what we're supposed to do?

LOCKE: He did.

BEN: Well?

LOCKE: He wants us to move the island.

Seems that if it was really important that Locke move the Island rather than Ben, that Christian (or Jacob or whoever he is) would have been a bit more clear about it.--Eyeful Tower 19:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

If the avatar known as Christian told Locke "you must move the island" then he was only talking to Locke as only Locke and Claire were in the cabin. Locke wrongly assumed that Ben had to be involved and that it was the action, not the process, that was important. Locke probably also wrongly assumed that only after he left Ben was still in charge of the Island when obviously once Locke heard Jacob, Locke was in charge of the Island.--Zaggs 19:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

How much time has passed?

When Jin recovers from the first flash of this episode, he is alone. Well, he has Montand's arm to keep him company. I don't have the skill to determine how long the arm has been there, but it looks like it has been there awhile, with the bone exposed and the fabric rotting. There are two scenarios, neither of which is of theory quality:

  • Several days have passed. Jin walks through the jungle. When he returns to the beach camp, the French have had time to build at least one shelter (for Danielle?). The raft is nowhere to be seen. Someone has killed Brennan and Lacombe (LaCombe?) and their bodies, both with two arms, are lying next to each other high on the beach. Flies are buzzing around the bodies. He hears an argument and watches the still-pregnant Danielle shoot Robert. Throughout, Montand is not seen and there is no sign of a grave for Nadine.
  • Several months have passed. Jin walks through the jungle. When he arrives at the second beach camp, the French have had time to build at least one shelter (for Danielle?). The raft is nowhere to be seen. Someone has killed Brennan and Lacombe (LaCombe?) and their bodies, both with two arms, are lying next to each other high on the beach. Flies are buzzing around the bodies. He hears an argument and watches the pregnant-again Danielle shoot Robert. Throughout, Montand is not seen and there is no sign of a grave for Nadine.

--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I would say a couple months. Not sure on her story but didn't she say they continued to the Radio Tower and the Black Rock, and on the way back encountered the Others and that's what got her team sick, and then after she killed her team she went back to the Radio Tower and changed the message, then gave birth 3 days later?. Hugo815 21:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
My thoughts were a couple of weeks - I'm surprised the article itself assumes several months have passed .. is there any evidence for this? Integrated (User / Talk) 11:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Are they able to find food and eat with flashes coming randomly? They seem constantly in chaos. And it seems like from their perspective it's really only been a few days, not months.

Danielle's story to Sayid implies she gave birth shortly after she killed Robert I believe. That would make it almost two months. Although it does seem odd that it would take that long for whatever the monster did to them to take effect, unless she was alone for sometime before they found her. --Jackdavinci 17:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The Transmission

Did anyone notice that the transmission of the numbers (in the beginning of the episode) sounded like Hurley's voice? --NotTHATben 21:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought that too, actually. But I don't think we should add it to the article without any sort of confirmation.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Its very close, but it would have to be Hurley in a mellow state we've never seen him in. The transmission voice is just a bit lower then I've ever heard Hurley.--Zaggs 05:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm on the fence about this, but it wouldn't be the first time someone's voice was pitched lower to disguise their identity briefly ... for example, Ben's at the end of The Economist. It might be worth a mention on the theories tab of the Number article. --Jeff 14:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Listen to the way the speaker says "42." Sounds exactly like the (sorry Hugo) mumble-mouthy way Hurley talks. JiYeonKwan 14:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The Sickness

Robert, Danielle's lover says "Please, don't do this" after Danielle has begun to lower her weapon. I believe he is verbalizing the inner struggle with whatever control the sickness has over his mind. He is asking the sickness not to proceed with what turns out to be his final act in life, trying to murder his lover and their child. --Kb1pkj 22:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Interesting theory....although I contend that more likely Robert was too far "gone" by that point (if any of Robert even still existed). I imagine he would have to be to attempt such a gruesome act so quickly after the line in question. But you've given me reason to think...--MonsterEatsthePilot 03:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Charlotte Speaking as a Child

When Charlotte tells Jin not to "bring her back to the island", I originally assumed she was referring to Sun. But after Charlotte tells Daniel that she thinks she remembers Daniel, in the past, instructing her not to come back to the island (or she would die), could it be that Charlotte was not actually speaking directly to Jin, but instead reciting verbatim what she remembered Daniel saying to her mother (or someone else) in the past, regarding herself? In other words, Charlotte's mind was in the state of herself as a child when she said that, and was not referring to Sun, but to herself. Anybody else think this? Bird1234 00:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • This didn't initially occur to me, but it sounds plausible. --Crash815 03:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • But then why in Korean? ESachs 11:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Because that's the context of the time she's remembering and she's half-stuck in that past.
  • That would also explain some of the other things she says at that point that seems to indicate that she was having flashes of her childhood. --LOSTinDC 13:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


Could we please throw Charlotte a bone and give her the main image for this article? The poor girl died

  • Yeah, so did Charlie, Jin, Anna-Lucia, etc. and we all saw them again as well. It doesn't mean she isn't coming back. They are traveling through time as well, so I am almost positive we will see her again.--Srsnyder5885 04:38, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Well of course, the crazy man has to tell young Charlotte that she has to leave the Island and never come back. --Crash815 05:46, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Anyone else think Rebecca Mader's (sp?) acting in this episode was amazing? She really made the character her own - pity she didn't live longer.. :( Integrated (User / Talk) 11:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, i think we should change it to Jin. Because #1, he has such few centrics. 2, most of the plot even off the island related to him. 3, because there is controversy as to whether the episode is Jin or Jin and Sun centric. Theres more Jin in either option so we have Jin as common ground

Rapid Flashes

Should the random flashes of light be mentioned in the summary? I realize that they're not long enough for a single section each, but we should mention when the sky lights up. --Crash815 04:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Someone has now split them into a single section each and it doesn't read very well. I think it was better before, where it said 'series of unknown flashes' Integrated (User / Talk) 00:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else notice this???

Did anyone else think that the Orchid looked runned-down compared to when Ben and Locke visited it in There's No Place Like Home, Part 2? --Crash815 05:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that right away, and i find in lost that the most insignificant things are often some of the most important. I know we were entertaining the idea that the losties were travelling to the future as well as the past this was my inital thought when I saw the orchid in its state when they found it. --Enzovalenzetti 11:23, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything significant about it .. we always knew they were travelling to the future too, as they travelled there in "Because You Left". But yes, I reckon that was a fair few years after 2004 Integrated (User / Talk) 11:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Eloise Hawking

Are we now safely assuming that Hawking is Daniel's mother? It hasn't been explicitly said, but Desmond turning up at her address, her name being Eloise (same as the rat), is that enough to begin butchering, I mean editing, her article? Integrated (User / Talk) 11:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Charlotte centric?

How come? I mean, yes, Charlotte dies, but that does not make "This Place Is Death" Charlotte-centric (the same way it doesn't make "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" a Michael-centric episode or "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" Charlie-centric episode). It's totally Sun and Jin-centric, Sun has a small flashback at the start of the episode (the car scene happend in "The Little Prince" from Kate and Aaron's perspective) and the Island story is, mostly about Jin realising the fact that the Island's time is changing and that Sun is off the Island? Unless an off-show reference to this is made, I vote that we should remove that and revert back to Sun/Jin-centric. Orhan94 12:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, revert it. It's clearly Sun/Jin not Charlotte. This user is responsible for the edit, and has also changed The Lie to various despite Damon and Carlton confirming it was Hurley-centric before it aired. They've only made 4 edits, all of which are changing the centric characters without even discussing it. Revert all 4 edits please.--Baker1000 12:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

'You Can't Change The Past'

  • Anyone else notice, Jin tried to change to past several times (without knowing it of course) but failed? The first one was when he wanted help from the Frenchies to find his camp, but Robert convinces him to go to the Radio Tower first, as he does not know the way. Had Jin not been there, they would have gone to the radio tower without even knowing of the camp. The second time he tells the Frenchies 'We must go!' after hearing the monster. However, the Frenchies dismiss this idea as they want to find Nadine. Had Jin not been there, they would have searched for Nadine straight away without considering to run. The third time is when he tells the Frenchies not to go down into the hole, but they do so anyway. The only thing he did manage to do was to convince Danielle not to go down the hole, perhaps she wouldn't have gone down anyway. Phobia27 19:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I believe Danielle never went down there anyway, because Jin always stopped her. If that makes sense. Basically all of these events always happened, Jin was predestined to go to 1988 and stop her from following them down into the hole.--Baker1000 19:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
      • This brings questions as to why Danielle did not remember Jin after he crashed on the island. I think it would make more sense if he was never there originally in 1988, then in 2005-ish he started to time travel along with other Losties, and he went back to 1988. Had Danielle been still alive to this day, she would have woken up in a similar way Desmond did in Because You Left and remembered her encounter with Jin as if it has always happened. Although Jin's presence has obviously changed the timeline a little, it hasn't changed any of the major occurences from happening - Frenchies journey to radio tower, being attacked by monster, Danielle going insane because she believed her crew changed because of the monster, all these happened for a reason as this ultimately lead to the discovery of Danielles signal by the Losties. Phobia27 20:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
        • If that were true, it would also bring up the question as to how Richard knew where and when Locke was born. The way I see it Locke always told Richard about the date of his birth, then Richard visited him. If what you say is correct and Locke never previously told Richard where he was born during a time skip in 1954, then how did Richard know?--Baker1000 20:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
        • It was sixteen years after Danielle met Jin that she saw him again. Plus, she hadn't known him that long on the Island. How would she have recognized him? She would have to have one heck of a memory. --Crash815 23:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
        • It's been made very clear that everything that has happened in the past has always happened that way. Jin was not trying to change the past, he was ALWAYS a part of Rousseau's past. He did not try to change anything, he was always there. People seem to be getting very confused by what happened with Desmond - he is the EXCEPTION, and the ONLY exception that we know of. If you are confused, rewatch "Because You Left" where Daniel clearly explains it all. Integrated (User / Talk) 00:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
          • Also for more on this "Jin was always part of Rousseau's past" concept, it would be a good thing to read about Predestination Paradox on Wikipedia.[1]--Baker1000 00:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Why do people assume that Danielle does not remember Jin? She was a strange bird by the time they found her, a product of 16-odd years of solitude. There are a number of reasons that she might have known about Jin, but not mentioned him. (1) See she's a strange bird, (2) Something happens to make her keep it a secret, (3) She doesn't want to change the past by telling Jin about it, for some reason, etc. Assuming she doesn't remember Jin is a theory. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 12:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Also there is the fact that she remembers Jin as an English speaking man and not a Korean speaking man. I don't think he spoke any Korean to her in his episode, so she probably won't realise he's the same person in the future if he only knows Korean. That, and she is a strange bird.--Baker1000 14:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

More Unanswered Questions

  • Why did Charlotte become an anthropologist (the study of ancient cultures) to find the Island? Does it really matter? Obviously it worked.
  • Why did [Charlotte] mention that she loved Geronimo Jackson? Judging from the other things she said, she was re-experiencing her life, at some point during which she said that she loved Geronimo Jackson. This question also isn't really relevent to anything.
  • What happened to the Island after the wheel was turned? This question is equivalent to asking "what will happen next" which is against policy.

Also, on a side note: PLEASE phrase your questions in present-tense as per LP:EMOS. It's getting really frustrating to keep having to fix.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  22:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Why does the French team have musical instruments? Because they play musical instruments. It's just luggage. Not a major mystery.
  • Why is Christian Shephard unable or unwilling to help Locke walk? This question is really asking what Christian's nature is, which has already been raised by earlier episodes and doesn't belong here.

 Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  22:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


"The group arrives at the ruins of the Orchid, placing them sometime after the creation of the DHARMA Initiative in the 1970s" If the Orchid is ruined, wouldn't it be more accurate to say it places the timeframe at some time in the future. The Orchid was intact and growing plants when Ben and Locke were there trying to get things ready to move the island, and the O6 had just left. Therefore, the timeframe has to be some time after that. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 12:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yea definitely after 2004 Integrated (User / Talk) 09:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

first paragraph.

the first paragraph, describing the first scenes with the confused Jin and a young Danielle, need to be rewritten. It doesn't flow like the rest of the summary and there's some parts missing. Can anyone fix it, please? thanks. dposse 00:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

  • All right, I fixed up the style of that paragraph. --Cornprone 11:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
    • I didn't mean the introduction, i was talking about the first paragraph of the summary. You know, where Jin and Danielle are talking? Heh, forget it. Its fine now. dposse 00:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Episode photo and Charlotte's speach

I think two corrections ought to be made to the article:

  • The photo should be changed to something more representative of the episode. Given most events occur on-island and there is an evident focus on Jin and Rousseau's stories, I believe a picture of him would be more suitable;
  • A translation of whatever Charlotte told Jin in Korean should be added to the Trivia section, if anyone is able to obtain it...

--FireSoul 21:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I too would love a translation of what Charlotte said. dposse 16:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Locke's Leg Wound

I maintain that at this point in time, and given the evidence we have before us from screencaps, that it cannot be stated as canonical fact beyond any debate that the wound Locke received to his leg upon his fall into the well is a compound fracture of his tibia. Indeed, from the screencaps (including this one), it appears that the protuding object could be either a bone or something that he landed on which was on the floor of the cave, that went through his leg. This does not mean that I do not believe it is a compound fracture, in fact, I do believe it is. But there is still room for speculation, and until we are shown, hopefully, later that he still has a bit of bone poking through his leg, it should not go down as canon fact here in Lostpedia that it is a compound fracture wound. Sorry for nitpicking, but unless someone can come up with solid canon evidence to disprove this, then I stand on this thesis. Saukkomies 23:14, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I agree; it almost certainly is a compound fracture, but we do not know.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 00:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
  • My vote. Not a compound. Not completely confident though. A true compound (thru the skin) tends to be very jagged along the break line (almost brittle), almost sawtooth. It almost never protrudes perpendicular... it tends to stay fairly parallel to the natural angle of the bone, in the case of single compounds (multi-compounds are like losing a game of Jenga). but but but - the protrusion is covered with blood, suggesting it was internal and not a stabbing injury. My best guess is that it is just bad Hollywwod prosthetics - meant to imitate a compound fracture. –DocH my edits 07:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
  • The fact that it's covered in blood indicates that it's a compound fracture.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Production Notes Removal

We need to consider removing the note: "In this episode, the camera was moved in an erratic manner while the time flashes were occurring in a similar fashion as the Saw movies, probably to accentuate the pain induced by the shifts." Making a direct correlation between Lost and Saw is specious. There are many examples in the history of film when erratic, violent, chaotic scenes are punctuated by camera movement/special effects. Use of the word "probably" and all of the assumption that ensues is presumptuous and unnecessary for a Production Note. I say, remove!--MonsterEatsthePilot 03:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree It's just a different director doing something a bit different. Integrated (User / Talk) 08:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. I edited out the reference to Saw, but I think the intent of the sequences is to show that the flashes are becoming more agonizing to the jumpers. I don't think it's jnust a question of the director; if it was not meant to convey something, it would have left "on the cutting room floor."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Charlotte and Daniel

The man Charlotte was going to marry was Daniel. Though there is no mention of a Danny, this would still make sense, as Daniel is American, and he was on the Island at some time. Daniel, wanting to save Charlotte in the future and realising that he wasn't able to convince her as a child, proposed marriage to her so he could always be with her and re-convince her to never go back to the island. However, Charlotte abandoned Daniel when she realized his true motives (e.g. to stop her from going back to the island). Charlotte left Daniel, but they never officially divorced. This would explain their love for each other. Charlotte thought Daniel was crazy and scary, but they still love each other. Oh, and for those of you that have noticed that they don't wear wedding rings, they took em off and stuffed them somewhere were they could never find them again, so they would not remember their broken marriage. This is just a theory and I was just wondering if anyone agreed with me on it. If you do agree with me or you have something to add, please say so on my talk page. Thanks, --Samantha Mulder 13:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I don't think you're necessarily wrong (how's that for a start<smile>?), but I'm having trouble with timelines. Daniel is not the crazy man who told her to leave, exactly; he will be the crazy man who told the girl Charlotte to leave. He has no memory of the conversation because, for him, it hasn't happened yet. (BTW, I think if our heads don't hurt when think about this stuff, we're just not paying attention!) Charlotte and Daniel either married or cohabitated because the idea of Charlotte marrying an American was unacceptable to her mother. They had to have met in the late 1990s. Not every couple wears rings. I can't shake the idea that Charlotte is the caregiver/partner in "Confirmed Dead". The conventional wisdom is that she is not, based on the voice, but...--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
    • This is a really really bad theory and is wasting space; keep it to the theory page if you must. Your theory doesn't make sense, how would Daniel know that Charlotte was going to die until after it happened, and after it happened he only sees her as a child. Also why would Charlotte mention that he told her not to come to the island as a child if she knew it was his "real" motive for wanting to "marry" her? This really is an awful awful theory, and should NOT be posted on this talk page. Integrated (User / Talk) 08:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
    • What this is right now is a soft theory. The premises are too weak to justify movement to the theory page. A theory that you do not like is not necassarily a "bad" theory.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 23:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
    • There is ZERO evidence and the theory is poorly explained, lots of evidence to the contrary. At what point did Daniel propose to Charlotte? If it was before they were on the freighter he would have no idea she was going to die, and if it's after then he only knew her as a child? Did he propose to her as a child? This theory deserves theory talk page at BEST, Integrated (User / Talk) 12:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Centricity, discussion two

  • The centricity of this ep's infobox should probably be changed to N/A. It's known that the writing team is moving toward avoiding "centrics" beginning with the end of last season (which we've marked as "O6" group centrics). This season, this trend continues, with post-island events covering the O6 group, and the on-island events (flashes which are also "current-narrative-time") also covering a group (sawyer + juliet + freightees).
    For the current episode 5x05 This Place is Death, Sun's single phone call to Ji Yeon cannot possibly justify a centric for her; fans could argue post-island events focus more on Ben, or on the O6 as a group. As for Jin, yes, he has been re-introduced, but as part of yet another group. The argument could be made by some fans that this is a Danielle Rousseau centric, b/c her back story has been introduced for the first time in Lost (much like Ben's first time in "The Man Behind the Curtain"). However, the title of episode focuses on Charlotte, and indeed the storyline following that group seems to revolve around Charlotte's troubles.
    As fans, we can always weigh an opinion and say for example: some episode X was 50% on-island, 30% hurley post-island, and 20% kate post-island, and conclude it was a Hurley Centric,while other fans will weigh their opinions differently on the same episode. However as an encyclopedia, our role isn't as fanboy judge and jury; if episodes are ambiguous to the point that it actually merits debate regarding centricity, this fact needs be reflected in an encyclopedic manner our episode articles, possibly by removing the "Centric" tag in the infobox, or implementing the (undesirable) oxymoron of multiple-centrics. In the first three seasons, centrics were crystal clear, and there was no question about it: flashback=centric; now it is just as crystal clear that this previous storytelling system no longer applies in Season 5. My proposal is to change this episode's centric to "N/A", and consider this as an option for future episodes.
    -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  19:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Hallelujah. You just summed up my entire opinion regarding 5x05's centric. I agree with you 100%! ObiDanKenobi5 19:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agreed. I've been opposed to this being a Jin/Sun-centric all along because there's no definitive way to determine that.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Disagree - In fact, that's not what Damon and Carlton have said. They said that they will still have centrics, but it won't be as blantant as someone staring into space and producing a flashback. I can't remember where they said that...perhaps at the last Comic-Con? The centric character was clearly Jin, with perhaps a supporting role by Sun. dposse 00:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • But the point is that we as fans don't get to decide, and we need to be an encyclopedia. If I were to act as a "fanboy", I would disagree with you and claim that this episode is not a Jin centric, but a Danielle Rousseau centric. The very fact that we are having this debate means that we are merely fans bickering over fancruft; the encyclopedic entry for this episode should reflect these issues, namely that "centric" for Seasons 1-3 is different from what fans like yourself are claiming it is in Season 5. Yes, some episodes this season may still have clear centrics, but some episodes will not-- the fact that we can have a debate about this (Jin vs. Jin & Sun, vs. Rousseau, vs. Jin & Rousseau, vs. O6 + Jin + Rousseau, vs. Rousseau & Charlotte) means we can't summarize centricity as an encyclopedic fact in the infobox; it's a fan opinion, and that doesn't belong here. The best compromise we could do is to add text that explains storyline focal characters, perhaps in a separate section in the article, not the infobox. For example, 1) Jin was reintroduced, 2) Danielle's FB was introduced, and 3) On-island revolved around the Lostie's dealing with flashes and Charlotte's eventual death-- but not as a classic infobox "Centric" as we have used it in previous seasons. The point is: we as fans don't get to decide; this is an encyclopedia, not a forum. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:01, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • You might have a point on Wikipedia, but not on LOSTpedia. As it says here, LOSTpedia is a fansite. All we are and will ever be is a bunch of fans making a record of the twists and turns of LOST. If we can find a source, that's cool! But most things on here will be written and rewritten by the fanboys and fangirls for years to come with nothing but discussion and compromise to aid them. I don't understand how you can say with a straight face that LOSTpedia is an encyclopedia when we have a "theory" section on every article. dposse 02:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Disagree - Per reasons stated by dposse. Damon and Carlton have flat out said episode 5x02 is Hurley centric. So if they're trying to get rid of "centric episodes", why would they keep doing them? Centricity, by definition, isn't just based around who has a flashback or flashforward. The word "centric" existed before Lost, you know. Centricity is determined by who the plot is most primarily focused on, and thus has been easy to determine so far. The only reasons debates concerning centricity come up is because some poeple think that since there aren't traditional flashbacks and flashforwards that there all of a sudden is no centricity. These people obviously have never heard of the word "centric" before Lost came about.--HaloOfTheSun 00:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
    • "The Lie" was definitively Hurley-centric because it featured Hurley in the flashback. "Centric" in Lost refers to which character the flashes center around, regardless of any meaning outside of Lost. Finally, people keep throwing around the "fact" that D&C have said that centricity will be determined by something other than flashes, yet nobody seems to remember exactly when that was said, much less been able to quote it. Find the quote and I'll concede.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  01:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Honestly, it seems stupid to say "centric" only refers to which characters the flashes center around. Of course, that works well in previous seasons but just because the formula changes does not mean all of a sudden there are no more centric episodes. Also, by that logic, this would still be a Sun episode since she technically had a flashback in the beginning. But just because people in the world of Lost associate "centric" with flashes, that doesn't mean that's what it is. I'm sorry I don't have time to look up where Damon and Carlton specifically mentioned centricity in season five, but they did. I guess since you are claiming that those of us who heard it are lying, that it automatically means we are just to win some trivial argument, so I guess I'm glad I'm not wasting my time trying to find a quote I obviously never heard and am just making up because I want my way. However, I am fairly sure it was in a podcast if someone else has the time to look it up. I also am not going to lose sleep over something as silly as this.--HaloOfTheSun 02:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
        • I'm not saying that you're lying, but it seems strange that everybody one one side of the argument is using this as an argument but nobody can state where it's from. If you don't have time to go find it, then that's fine (I probably wouldn't either), but with the number of people using this argument, you'd think someone would have a source. The fact of the matter is: if there's this much ambiguity towards it (ie: enough that we actually have to debate it), then it's impossible to objectively state that the episode is Jin/Sun centric.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree Darlton has not getting rid of "centrics", they're moving away from them. This means that we will have some "centric" episodes while others will be different. In response to HaloOfTheSun, centricity has its own meaning in the Lost world, just like the word Other. For this specific episode, there was no centricity by the Lost definition (which is not necessarily someone staring into space and having a flashback). --Blueeagleislander 00:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Disagree as per Dposse. Even then, regardless of what the producers have said, Jin/Sun are clearly the focus of the episode. Sun also had a flashback, if you're that technical. (It's not like the other flashbacks this season were more had more importance than that one.) --LeoChris 02:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Agree: saying that this episode is "N/A" does not mean that centrics will disappear from the series; all it means is that this episode is too ambiguous to categorize as a centric. Like Santa said, Sun's phone call to Ji Yeon does not make this episode center around her. Ben and Jack appear in the episode for the same time that Sun does. On the Island, the events center around the science expedition, and although Jin was with them, the episode did not center around him either. The character centric in this episode is just too ambiguous to distinguish. "N/A" is a perfect alternative; the fact that we even have to debate about this means that the centric is too ambiguous, and thus should be categorized as "N/A". I don't think the writers are moving away from centrics, but I think that this particular episode does not have a specific centric. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 03:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Disagree Integrated (User / Talk) 08:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree. I feel that centricity must be defined by the classic flashback/forward structure seen in earlier seasons (i.e. we see the character on both sides of the flash transition.) Without the guideline, we're stuck arguing over who the episode "seemed to be focussed on" which is a subjective judgment. Of course we could start timing how many seconds each character is on screen or counting how many lines each has, but that would be absurd. --Cornprone 09:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Scrap centricity The constant arguing over centricity is getting boring. Let's go back to the way we used to do it, and just list who has the flashback/forward and let people make up their own mind about which is the most important storyline of the episode. The flashback/forward is a concrete and consistent element of the show, while the idea of 'centricity' is nebulous and debatable. Or at the very least, if we insist on continuing this nonsense, at least still list in the infobox who got the flashback. That's important information to have and there's no reason to stop listing it. --Jackdavinci 11:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree: Centricity labels aren't meaning that much in season 5. Without a flashback or flashforward it's very ambiguous. While much of this story was seen through Jin's eyes, I can see it being partially Danielle-centric. I don't believe Sun should be listed at all. She was no more involved in the off-island plot than Ben or Desmond.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 15:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I was leaning toward the "scrap centricity" argument, except that "316" was clearly and obviously Jack-centric even though the episode did not feature flashbacks, and we have some hints from the title and trailer that "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" will similarly be Locke-centric... Robert K S (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
      • The suggestion is to consider centricity on an episode-by-episode basis, not to scrap it entirely for the season. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  21:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
    • All episodes tend to focus somewhat on whoever is in the flash, although there are also usually B and even C stories. But whereas centricity is an often nebulous and subjective concept, the flashback/forward is usually pretty concrete. This episode did feature a flash in the beginning, just like every other episode this season has. It's been a consistant pattern that every episode has started with a flash. This one and the first episode had a flash forward, the rest had a flashback. --Jackdavinci 18:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly agree: Personally, I don't think ANY of the episodes so far this season are "centric" on one character. I think some people are just stuck on that concept almost to the point of fetishizing it. This show used to do episodes that were blatantly "centric" on one or two characters, now things have changed and most of the time at best one character may have slightly more screen time. That doesn't seem very "centric" to me. I'd support leaving most of the season 5 as "various" or NA unless one is clearly "centric". --Minderbinder 21:56, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, who makes the final say on this? Is it one of the SysOps, or...?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions 

Just in case if, I'm not the only one...

I hate the main picture, I think it should be Jin handing locke the ring or anyhthing else really Four4elements 02:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Agreed. "This Place" refers to the island. Maybe an action shot of the monster? ESachs 16:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Agreed. The action on the Island is significant and the image is too dark.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


According to Gregg Nations, the french Team left Tahiti on November 15th 1987 and then arrived on the island in early 1988. [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mammam (talkcontribs) 2009-03-05T18:25:25.

Episode Centricity

I think just to clear it up and satisfy everyone, this episode should be considered a Sun, Jin and Charlotte centric episode. While Charlotte doesn't necessarily have a flashback, it doesn't mean the episode doesn't focus on her too. She is the one the survivors revolve around in this episode, due to her condition and prior knowledge of the island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 01lander (talkcontribs) .

  • No First of all, do not make edits to the Charlotte article before getting a consensus here. Secondly, the episode is clearly Jin and Sun centric. Off the island, the focus is on Sun and her conversation with Ji Yeon and her confrontation with Ben at the marina. On the island, a great portion of the action is dedicated to Jin and his time spent with Rousseau's science expedition. Charlotte does not appear very much in the episode -- only about ten minutes -- which definitely does not warrant a centricity. Again, it's clearly Sun/Jin. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No As per Sam McPherson. --LeoChris 15:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No - There have been numerous discussions about the centricity of this episode (two on this very page), and they have all come to the concenus that it was Sun/Jin only. Like Sam said, do not change articles in such a way without a concenus being reached. If we all did that then Lostpedia would be a fine mess.--Baker1000 16:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I think that the centricity in this episode is too ambiguous. How can a single phone call with Ji Yeon dictate the off-Island events being Sun-centric? Jack and Ben share just as much of the off-Island storyline as Sun. On the Island, Jin has a small portion of the overall plot -- the rest of the on-Island events focus on Charlotte and her death, as well as Danielle's expedition. Episode centrics should never have to be debated -- and this centric is way to ambiguous to tell. Therefore I think the centricity of this episode should be changed to "None" or "Various". -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 16:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't think that it's that ambiguous. The entirity of the science team expedition storyline in this episode is told from Jin's perspective. If it was otherwise, then we would have gone down into that hole with Robert and the others. There is also the storyline that continues from both on and off-Island, which is that of the wedding ring, which Jin gives to Locke and then Ben gives to Sun. It's the constant in both parts of the episode. The episode also explores Sun's reaction to the revelation that Jin was alive, as well as her willingness to avenge Jin's death. It follows her throughout; the off-Ilsnad events begin with the perspective of Sun and follow her until they meet Eloise at the end of the episode. I believe that this is sufficient evidence to warrant a Jin/Sun centricity. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I can see where you're coming from, but I still think the centricity of this episode is not obvious by any means. Much of the narrative of this episode focuses on Charlotte's impending death. After we see Jin's perspective of the expedition team's venture, the focus shifts to Charlotte's last scenes and Locke's endeavor to stop the time shifts. I suppose that if we had to designate a centricity to this episode, it would be Sun/Jin. However, I think a large part of the storyline focuses on Charlotte, so "Various" might be a more appropriate designation. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 18:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Again, I respectfully disagree. While Charlotte's impending death is a theme in the episode, it is not the central theme. The central theme is the connection between Jin and Sun. Impending deaths do not necessitate a centricity. "Do No Harm" was not Boone centric, nor was "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" Michael centric. I believe that by simply going by the overarching theme of the episode, it's easily a Jin/Sun centric. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  18:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment It is not the central theme, but it is a central theme. I guess my point is, Jin may have been at the heart of the expedition story (most likely because he's the character we can all relate to)... however, the storyline beyond that does not focus on Jin (which includes Charlotte's death, the journey to the Orchid, and Locke descending down the well/finding Christian/turning the wheel). Off the Island, the events are motivated by Sun wanting to find Jin, but Jack and Ben are involved just as much in the plot. I guess I can see how this would be Sun/Jin centric -- but it just doesn't have the overwhelming feel of centricity as do all other episodes. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 18:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No As I've said before, the episode is mostly told from their POV. No other main characters are even present on the Island until midway in, just Jin and the French team, and these scenes only follow Jin's perspective on the events, with him being in every scene. Which means that most of the survivors have rather brief roles in the episode-just about ten minutes or so, as said above. Jin is in much more of the episode than anyone else. And Charlotte doesn't have much of a role in the episode-she's not in it until the second half of the episode, and even her death scene seems to focus more on Daniel than her. Death does not centricity make; main characters often do die in their centric, but not all. Boone didn't. Libby didn't. Charlie didn't. Michael didn't. And Charlotte didn't. Off Island, the entire plotline is about Sun, from us seeing her perspective on the meeting, to the car ride, to Ben proving to her that Jin is alive. Only the final Eloise scene breaks from her perspective. I think this is more than enough to keep it as Jin & Sun. --Golden Monkey 20:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No I cant believe this is even up for disscusion it seems like the users who think it is charlotte just feel that way because it fits the old mold of main characters dying in their flash back episodes, clearly jin and sun centric.--THE REAL DEAL998 22:33, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No. This episode has no centricity. This includes Jin and Sun (an argument that I already lost several times, though I argue that the consensus wasn't actually reached as claimed above), but also Charlotte.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  01:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No per Charlotte, Yes per Sun and Jin. --Orhan94 13:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I think we're not looking for extra screen time or POV here. What makes this a Sun/Jin episode are the transitions. Like a similar point I made in the "Follow the Leader" talk page, every transition (with the "whoosh" sound - previously "flashback/flashforward" sound), with one possible exception, involves Sun and Jin:
3:04 - Sun to Jin
17:53 - Jin to Sun
19:33 - Sun to the island group from a distance, with a focus on Jin
23:39 - Sun to Jin
38:30 - Locke (after turning the wheel) to Sun
This happens in the commercial breaks too. Check 7:44 (Jin to Jin) and 21:57 (Jin to Sun). If this isn't a trend, I don't know what it is. --kristbg 13:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Characters in this episode

  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the only episode to date, besides "Pilot, Part 2" not to feature any new characters? Also is this worth mentioning in the Trivia section. --Orhan94 13:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Hm, interesting. What about "The Brig" though? And actually, "Pilot, Part 2" did have Rousseau on the transmission, so that wouldn't even count. I do think this kind of thing is worth mentioning. -- Graft   talk   contributions  18:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
      • You're right, Rousseau is introduced in "Pilot, Part 2", so it leaves on these two episodes. I'll add this to their respective Trivia sections. --Orhan94 12:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Main Picture

Is awkward, proposed change to Four4elements 02:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes: The current image is terrible for the main picture -- the one above better encompases a main plot point, and is also a better overall picture. I'm adding it now; if there are any disagrees, please feel free to state your reasons. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 02:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes: Great pic! --kristbg 16:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
  • No: It's watermarked by Lost-Media. I think the pictures used in the episode infoboxes should be watermark-free. --LeoChris 02:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
  • No: It has the logo of Lost-Media. It looks really bad --toxduris 22:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

thx. I changed it btw, no more marks! I'd do anything to keep that other one form returning. Four4elements 01:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Hurley's voice

"Hurley does not appear, but he can be heard repeating the numbers" <--- that was an edit. Was it really his voice? --Golden Monkey 16:38, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

  • I think that the voice sounds similar to Hurley's, but I don't think anybody can say absolutely that it's him, unless Darlton has verified it to be so at some point? I just edited it to reflect that we aren't certain that it's Hurley, but feel free to change if we know for certain that it is.--Lionofdharma 06:07, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • I would say something like "but many fans believe that his is the voice reciting the numbers. "  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:51, March 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Done. Thanks for the great suggestion.--Lionofdharma 20:04, March 12, 2010 (UTC)

New Main Image


  • Yes IMO the article needs a better picture. This one doesn't have Locke in it and focus's on Jin looking at the ring. --Joshm1995 01:59, March 27, 2010 (UTC)
  • No The episode has been judged Jin/Sun centric. Locke's shoulder is in the image, albeit his shoulder.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:39, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
  • No Oh no not his shoulder. But seriously I dont see how locke being in the image takes focus off jin and I like Jins expression better in orig. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  05:40, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes I like this new one better. --Celebok 17:34, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes New image. (Kdc2 18:22, June 23, 2010 (UTC))
  • Yes I also like the new one better. Mhtm 12:08, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes Let's get rid of Locke's shoulder. --LeoChris 21:37, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes New one - let's just include Jin if possible. --- Balk Of Fametalk 10:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, I find this opposition to changing episode pics funny. We don't need some overwhelming consensus to change a picture. Nothing suggests an consensus for the original pic. When one does, the original deserves the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, we just need more people who want the new picture. Also, comments like "current pic is fine" don't count as "No". They count as "Neutral" because they argue for neither photo. --- Balk Of Fametalk 10:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Sticker on Jin's back?


Am I missing something? In the scene where Jin reunites with Sawyer, Juliet & co., why does Jin have a pinkish/purple star sticker on his back?


I've never noticed it until now. No one actually put it on him in the show, right? (Kdc2 18:20, June 23, 2010 (UTC))

I noticed it when I first watched the episode. I think it's in all the scenes in that episode. It's probably more likely part of the shirt, but it's supposed to be the same shirt he had on at the end of Season 4. It would be interesting to watch that and see. I doubt it was, so the continuity error could be there.--Baker1000 19:11, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

"Before 1867"

In the part of the summary that describes what happens to Locke in the frozen wheel chamber, the header is Before 1867. How do we know this? (Kdc2 04:35, July 20, 2010 (UTC))

  • Because in the same time period, we see the Statue of Taweret fully intact, and we know from "Ab Aeterno" that the statue was destroyed in 1867. --Celebok 23:08, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • That's right. Thanks! (Kdc2 04:01, July 21, 2010 (UTC))

Sun blames Ben for Jin’s apparent death – not a continuity error

On the page for this episode it says: “Sun says that she wants to kill Ben because she believes Ben is responsible for killing Jin. Yet she had no way of knowing that Ben killed Keamy, causing the destruction of the ship. From what she knows, Charles Widmore would be much more responsible for Jin's apparent death, but when she met him, she had no problem with him”. But is this really an error?

The way I see it she thinks that Ben is responsible for Jin’s death because the people on the boat came for him. She does not know that the boat exploded because Ben stabbed Keamy, but she most likely knew that the people on the freighter came looking for Ben (she would know this because Miles told Jack in “Confirmed Dead”). If Ben had not been on the island, Widmore would not have sent a boat as far as Sun knows (well, he would probably still be interested in finding the island, but Sun does not know this – she only knows that they came for Ben). In other words, Ben is the reason why the freighter came to the island and thereby the reason that Jin “died”.

As to why Sun seems to “have no problem” with Widmore, this might have something to do with her knowing that Widmore was able to find the island once (December 2004), and therefore she needs him in order to find the island again so that she can find and kill Ben. He is just an instrument to find Ben, and when Widmore has located the island for Sun, she does not need him any longer – then she can kill him, if she also finds him responsible for Jin’s apparent death, thus killing both of the responsible people. She obviously cannot tell this to his face, though, as he would never help her locating Ben then, and therefore she seems to have no problem with Widmore. --Sirithvagorien 16:11, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's also possible that Sun had reason at least to surmise the gist of the events that took place in the Orchid. She spent a week on the Searcher with Frank, Kate, Sayid and Desmond. Desmond could have told her that the freighter blew up because there was a bomb on board. Frank could have told her that Keamy had had a mysterious device on his arm that he had claimed would make the captain on the boat not want to shoot him. Kate and Sayid could have told her that Ben's people killed Keamy, believing him to have died when Richard shot him. Rtozier (talk) 15:43, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Klingon Sarcastically

Why is it considered that Charlotte was being sarcastic when she claimed to speak Klingon? She's nerdy and obsessive enough that she could do it. PolarBearSkull (talk) 20:33, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

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