Talk: There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3 article. General discussion about the article's subject is permitted as a way to aid improvement of the article. Theories about the article subject should not be discussed here. (Instead, post your theory to this article's theory page or discuss it on this article's theory talk page.)
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.	Be polite, don't bite, have fun! Admins are here to help More discussion at the Forum	Article policies Canonicity Spoiler policy Theory policy

Rename

Rename: the official name says Parts 2 & 3 --Hunter61 12:50, 12 May 2008 (PDT)

Object: This is just Part 2. It is two hours long, but is only part two. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterricca (talk • contribs) 2008-05-13T13:19:55.

Also suggest rename to There's No Place Like Home, Part 2. Exodus, Part 2 was also "part 3" but this is not reflected in the title of the article. ShadowUltra 21:53, 15 May 2008 (PDT)

The episode was named by the ABC Medianet press release "Parts 2 & 3". However, the real question is whether we break the article into two pieces for those countries that will see the episodes separately. Input/comments/thoughts? Robert K S (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2008 (PDT)

What we normally do for countries who will see the episodes as two seperate entities, is create redirects from ...Part 2 and Part 3 to the original article. Exodus Part 2 was always called "Exodus Part 2", Part 3 is only used in those countries that split the double episodes into two seperate ones, and as such we have a redirect for Exodus Part 3, and its "phantom" episode number  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  01:45, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

Renaming to part two will also get rid of the design flaw where it takes a new line in the episode box at the top of the episode page due to it being bold. Peterricca 05:04, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

I agree, just because ABCMediaNet is inconsistent with what they call episodes doesn't mean we have to be. ShadowUltra 05:14, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

We stick with what the episode is named, not what we make up because we don't like something. There is absolutely no discussion to be had here.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  11:23, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

That's kind of harsh. Exodus had different episode titles depending on the region. This may end up being "part 2" on the US region DVD indicating ABCmedianet made an error. It's fine to make a call one way or another to resolve the situation. But certainly there's plenty of evidence that it's not a cut and dried issue. I say we keep "2&3" with a redirect from "2" as you suggest until we get new information (like DVD track list or abcmedia update) - but leave the attitude behind. --Jackdavinci 11:37, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

Its not harsh. We go with what ABCMedianet use. If they split the episodes on DVD we might have a different argument, but until then why are we trying to remove the goal posts and change the established way of doing things? Why fix what isn't broken??  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  02:35, 18 May 2008 (PDT)

Well funny you should say th

at because it is broken. The design is when the episode is selected, anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterricca (talk • contribs) 2008-05-20T10:52:22.

I completely agree with Plkrtn. I think you should keep it as it is: an only page titled TNPLH parts 2 & 3 (according to ABC Medianet). This, until the episode airs. After the episode has aired, I think you should see here and check how this episode(s) is (are) listed. By the way, isn't there a press release for Exodus, part 2? Looking there could be useful for this problem. Simone85 11:29, 16 May 2008 (PDT)

I think this would matter IF the 2 hour finale are in fact two episodes broken up into two 1-hour segments (complete with "Previously on Lost" and what have you) - Sort of how they do it when they air two hour "24" finales. If the episode is a full two hours, then it should be just "TNPLH, part 2" (and episode 13), but if broken up, it should be "parts 2 and 3" (and episodes 13-14). I vote we keep it as is until specifically shown otherwise. Just my opinion though. --JoeyBags1138 10:48, 17 May 2008 (PDT)

It was all one big episode. I vote Part 2. Plus it might actually fit on one line in the character boxes. --Pyramidhead 01:38, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

In "The Wizard of Oz", the ruby slippers had the power to return Dorothy home, if she clicked her heels 3 times and repeated the phrase: "There's no place like home". I believe that, in order to reflect this, Darlton and the writers intentionally split the finale in 3 parts.

The 3rd hour was added recently, was the name of the episode decided after the 3rd hour was added?Doctor Manhattan 13:03, 22 May 2008 (PDT) Cryptonic 16:50, 19 May 2008 (PDT)

Ha. Good point. Robert K S (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2008 (PDT)

Comment: Lost has had many references to the Wizard of Oz. I think "THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE HOME" being repated three times (Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3) is definitely intentional. --CTS 13:49, 23 May 2008 (PDT)

We got that already. Did you read the remark two above yours? (Anyway, in The Wizard of Oz, Dorothy clicks her heels together three times, but she says "There's no place like home" many more times than three.) Robert K S (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2008 (PDT)

• How can this be the last episode of lost. i know its a three hour thing but come on. i heard season 4 was going to be over 20 episodes. not just 13. --Pacific Gilly 1992 15:49, 26 May 2008 (PDT)
  • It was originally supposed to be 16 episodes but the writer's strike prevented a full season from being possible. The three year (season 4-5-6) total will remain the same - by adding extra episodes to the next two seasons. --Jackdavinci 17:18, 26 May 2008 (PDT)

• • • If you'll all notice, on abc.com if you go to view the episode it is split into parts 2 and 3.Thelordnyax 15:59, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• There is report that only part 3 will have audio commentary, which leads one to assume that the finale is indeed three isolated episodes rather than treating this as a two-hour single episode. If this is how the finale is presented on the DVD, Part 3 should be considered as the 14th episode for referential purposes, perhaps, even if it's generally assumed it was a 13-episode season.--Easter 18:18, 6 September 2008 (PDT)

Air Date

So... It's on the 29th, not the 22nd? Mia 16:02, 17 May 2008 (PDT)

Yeah. The Grey's Anatomy two hour finale knocks Lost's off for a week. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:37, 17 May 2008 (PDT)

Those assholes... Lost > Grey's Anatomy. But of course, that's just a matter of opinion. --Acolyt3 11:25, 18 May 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, but we ought to be thankful. It's probably part of the reason they added an hour to Season 4. Robert K S (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2008 (PDT)

Remove Spoiler Bar?

I know it is kinda late now, as the episode will air in about 2 hours, but I was just saying, why do we have the spoiler bar on top? The air date isn't exactly a spoiler.--Rhcm123|talk|contributions 15:40, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

I think it's mostly in case anything gets accidentally posted (ie: if someobody isn't clear on the spoiler policy or something). Just a warning to anybody who might come to this page and not want to see spoilers. Also, the source code for the article contains commented-out spoilers (primarily the cast list). It's not hurting anybody, so I say leave it.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  15:49, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

Edgar Halliwax Appearance

• The whole Orchid Orientation film seemed to be filmed differently than the original outtakes originally aired at Comicon last year. Additionally, the Edgar Halliwax actor looked a bit different. Obviously this would be due to a year having passed IRL, just wanted to put it out there. I myself am too tired to break down the whole vid or anything, just wanted to hear comments from others.--Overworkedirish 23:07, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

• My take on it was that this was the take that they did after the video they showed us as the sneak preview of season 4, where he seemed very composed and started doing the speech again. Dgtljunglist 23:24, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

• When they first went in, when Ben turns on the desk lamp, the set to the right is very similar to the one from the original video. It is entirely possible (story wise) that they'd have said "Ok lets do it again but this time, over here..."  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  11:44, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• My dad is a video producer, and having helped him shoot stuff it is likely they didn't like the look of the first run of footage and reshot it as plkrtn said. --The Cartographer 17:25, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Octagon Global Recruiting

• At least here in San Diego they aired a fake commercial for "Octagon Global Recruiting" and if you go to octagonglobalrecruiting.com, it says they're recruiting in San Diego from July 24-27, and its sponsored by the Dharma Initiative. Those are the dates for Comic-Con! Woohoo I'm excited Sdsuchelle 23:20, 29 May 2008 (PDT)
• Saw it in Vegas as well, I can't wait for comic-con!--Rodwell 23:51, 29 May 2008 (PDT)
• Definitely aired across the board - NYC as well.--Overworkedirish 00:39, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• It did not air in Kentucky, but I've seen the video online.--HaloOfTheSun 02:08, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• Aired on the Atlanta station.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:33, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• it aired in the Kansas City area. --The Cartographer 11:27, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• It aired in Grand Rapids. --Sawyerissexy 19:28, 30 May 2008 (PDT)Sawyerissexy
• It aired in Fairbanks, Alaska AlaskaDave 23:18, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• It aired in Fort Lauderdale, FL Rddswim 23:00, 31 May 2008 (EST)
• Saw it here in the Akron, OH area. Very pleased that it turned out to be a DHARMA reference. Tsunomaru 23:09, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Lingering thoughts

Overall an awesome episode I think. Especially moving the island, the Des/Pen reunion, Keamy vs Sayid, Sawyer's sacrifice, and the coffin. But.. what exactly happened to Dan's last Zodiac run? Was he pulled into the island teleportation bubble? Is this supposed to be an actual mystery or was it just not something they bothered to make explicit due to time issues? After all of the "spectacular kiss" speculation and hype I found it amusing that besides Sawyer/Kate and Des/Pen there was a fairly explicit slashy CPR scene where Jack and Desmond had some extended meeting of the lips. I think Michael's story arc was ultimately overhyped and underplayed, and full of red herrings. I'm hoping it was just a casualty of the compressed season due to the writer's strike. Jin's death (and the redshirts too) was ridiculous, up there with Charlie's. I hope the writers learn their lesson before the next Big Death. They all knew about that bomb for a long time. But they waited until the light turned red to start panicking. They should have had life vests already on, sitting in the life boats off the freighter as soon as they found the bomb. In the case that the bomb could be defused they could have easily gotten back on the freighter. There was just no logical reason for anyone on the freighter besides Michael (and the copter if it had to land at a bad moment) to have died in the explosion. I guess Jin could have survived since he was at the end of the freighter's deck but he'd have no island to wash ashore. --Jackdavinci 23:27, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

I think the whole Christian "You can go now, Michael" is ambiguous enough that the others/island could have intervened and somehow saved the people on the boat. Additionally, since the small island disappeared with the island, I think that whatever was within the time bubble around the island made the trip as well. --Rodwell 23:50, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

It is interesting that they included that exchange between Jack and Frank about the second island. I wonder if they did that simply to pre-empt any speculation we fanatics might have started spewing about it, or if it's meant, like you said, to tell us that everything around the island was "moved" too--or if it has some other significance. I can't think of what that would be, though. Jacob's Lather 04:43, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

My theory is everything in the water went with the island including the freighter and the zodiac raft (that being the reason the chopper didn't go with the island). What might happen next season is that Daniel goes over to where ship sunk looking for survivors, and finds Jin and a couple redshirts if any. --The Cartographer 11:27, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

This is a very interesting point. My speculation is that Daniel and the redshirts on the Zodiac have been moved with the island. So Daniel will be back to the island, and we will have more of him, Charlotte and Miles. This is a good thing, cause these characters are all very interesting, but they haven't been explored. I do not know about Jin, whether he has died or not. If he has died, then I fully agree that this is a very ridiculous death, up there with Charlie's. When he was on the deck of the freighter, waving his arms, he could have easily jumped into the water and swim as far as he could, why didn't he do that, knowing that the bomb was about to explode? It's silly. But he may have survived, and that would be really nice. Because it means that Daniel may find him and rescue him, and take him to the island. So this would allow the writers to continue with the Sun and Jin storyline, which would really turn into the same kind of story as the Des/Penny story. I think these two developments are very likely. For a main reason: many characters have now either died or left, which really leaves the island with very few important characters. If you think about it: that'd be pretty much Locke, Juliet, Sawyer, Claire... Bernard and Rose have never been big characters. And as for the Others: they've killed all their important characters except Richard Alpert. So if they are going to pull a story about what happens in the island, from now on, they need to have interesting characters ON the island. That's why I think that Daniel will be back, and possibly also Jin.--Salvora 11:14, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

When the freighter explodes, there's no one left on deck. Maybe Jin did jump. If TPTB want him to have the strength to get to the Island and have something else for him to do, he'll be there. Daniel, with his flock, will almost certainly be there. The various suggestions on the theory page about Daniel, et.al. going to a different place in space/time only lead to an overly complicated story line.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 05:59, 17 June 2008 (PDT)

Music Reference: Gouge Away

IN keeping with the fact that in THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, Jack was listening to NIRVANA on the date of the anniversary of Kurt's death, I thought there may be some significance to the usage of the PIXIES' GOUGE AWAY in this episode. The obit from TTLG was dated April, 5 (Cobain's death anniversary). Pixies frontman Black Francis has an April 6th birthday which would be maybe the next day (the day of the funeral even?) another timely cultural coincidence, neato! I added it to the cultural references portion of the main page. Jack has a penchant for making historically significant mix tapes!!! --Frenkmelk 23:45, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

• Interesting theory, but the writer's have discounted the newspaper clipping as an inaccurate prop.--Overworkedirish 00:28, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • You say that even though the newspaper clippling was accurately an obituary for Jeremy Bentham?
    • I have to chime in once more, whether the clipping was a prop or no, it was still taken from an actual newspaper that was dated April 5, 2007. I am just saying once more, a writer or someone is a music buff. --Frenkmelk 15:11, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
      • The clipping wasn't from the actual paper itself. The clipping wasn't inaccurate either, as it held all the information we now know, such as Jeremy Bentham, and his date of death. However, read the lyrics of Gouge Away which include "Cut my locks, some marijuana if you have some..." It was all a clue :)  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  06:42, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

Taller Walt

• Hurley seemed mightily unmoved by Walt's "growth spurt"! Are we to believe enough time has passed by this flashforward for Walt's growth to be reasonable?--Overworkedirish 00:41, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Dude, Hurley looked Walt straight in the eye and told him how big he was getting. Walt was about thirteen and a half, so it makes some sense. Also, this episode was an Oceanic 6 centric flash-forward that took place 3 years after they were rescued (according to Kate in the scene at the beginning, which was awesome). --Halcohol 01:33, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Enough time has definitely passed. Remember how old Aaron is? Sun has already had her baby and successfully gotten involved in Paik Industries? The newspaper with the baseball reference that Jack noted, establishing this as 2007? So yes...at this point the show has progressed almost as far as real life has since the beginning of the show. Making Walt's age difference very similar to the actor's age difference.Thelordnyax 01:37, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I dont' know. The actor is 16 years old, but according to the show's timeline Walt should be only 13. I'm willing to chalk it up as "one of those things," but the fact that Hurley mentioned how big Walt got makes me think there is something about it we don't know yet. Jacob's Lather 04:49, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

That flashforward is close to present day, so Walt is about the same age as the actor. Years have passed, that has been established in many ways. --Minderbinder 05:54, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

No, that's not correct. Jack asked Michael just after the crash how old Walt was, and Mike answered Walt was "9, no 10", making Walt still 10 when they left the Island 2 months later. Add three years (per Kate's comment of trying to get over the events of the day they left the Island for three years), and Walt is 13ish, while the actor is actually around 16. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:04, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Have you never heard of actors playing below their age? It happens on pretty much every show on TV. As for what Hurley said, he just said something like 'dude, you've gotten big', which is a fairly typical thing to say to a growing boy.Liquidcow 10:14, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

He was playing 3 years younger when the show started, and he's playing 3 years younger now. Seems fine to me. --Minderbinder 11:33, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Minderbinder: yours is the final and logic answer. Nothing more to be added ;) (Enzo 2309 08:14, 1 June 2008 (PDT))

Walt and Malcolm David Kelley are not the same age....they have aged the same amount of time (or very close to)...Thelordnyax 15:41, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Remember, TPTB have been saying (for a while now) "Trust us, we have planned for Walt's growth all along" -- I kind of think that relates to the time that's passed off island.AlaskaDave 23:21, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Yes. Of course even they may have been shocked by how MUCH he's grown. It leads me to think that Malcolm David Kelley was not the shape in the window in "Meet Kevin Johnson."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:03, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

He wasn't the kid in the window. I got a mouthful off some users for saying it wasn't him, but it obviously WASN'T in hindsight, was it? Plus, MDK has aged 4 years almost exactly, since the pilot, and has aged 3 1/2 years as a character on the show, how isn't that aging believable?!!?  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  06:44, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

Assessment?

• What's everyone think of this year's finale, in comparison with that of previous season's? I personally felt that it was the weakest of the four finales. In order: Season 1, Season 3, Season 2, Season 4. This episode was good, but not mind-bending like lst season.--paulski 05:59, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I didn't think that they could possibly top last year and I don't know if they did, but I thought the season 4 finale was absolutely brilliant! Damon and Carlton are amazing story tellers!!!abcortesi
  • It was great episode, only it didn't have some secret surprise scene like the previous seasons (flashforward, listening station, Walt's abduction). The possibility to move the Island was already revealed 2 episodes before and the "code phrase" (frozen donkey wheel) wasn't a code phrase since it just literally described the object in question, so it wasn't much of a surprise.But when you forget the surprise twist one second, you'll realize that this year's finale was as good as the previous when it come to storytelling, Island events and flashforward.

Think about it, if you removed the ending from "Through the Looking Glass" it wouldn't look as great : it's just Jack leading everyone to the radio tower, Charlie in the Looking Glass and Jack getting high on drugs in the future. This year's episode is only a disappointment if you expected some big twist. The writers just didn't envision it this way : it was about connecting present time and flashforward (for the first time we knew from the beginning what was gonna happen, the question was only how). This Season seems like a turning point for the show, the end of a cycle. Season 5 and 6 should be very different from what we've seen up until that point, and ultimately that's what make them exciting and worth waiting. You don't always need a huge cliffhanger for the sake of cliffhanger.--Lauridsen77 08:08, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• There weren't any "whoa, that totally changes everything" moments like the other finales. We knew the island would get moved, Keamy would die, O6 would get rescued, the bomb would blow up or be diffused. It was a good, action-packed episode, don't get me wrong, but there wasn't even a real cliffhanger. If we weren't told why Locke had left the island, that would be a cliffhanger. I would rank them S2, S3, S1, S4. Merick 08:09, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• If we weren't told why Locke had left the island, that would be a cliffhanger. When did they tell us that??? 13:23, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Locke's body being in the coffin seems to be a pretty good cliffhanger...Thelordnyax 15:43, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Well about cliffhangers, overuse of cliffhangers and plot twists is what made another formerly great show (24) collapse. There only one step from the sublime to the ridiculous. No seriously what did you expect as a cliffhanger? Well you had big plot twists this year (Widmore's link to the Island, time travel, moving the Island), although they weren't all compressed in the finale but revealed throughout the season. Darlton didn't put a cliffhanger because they didn't feel it was justified. I'm glad they didn't pull some cheap deus ex machina for marketing's sake.--Lauridsen77 08:21, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

The single, stunning event from the season three finale was the first flashforward. Now, we're used to those. I've been arguing that the Island doesn't really move. Oops! That was a great effect and it was a good show. I'll be watching when season five starts.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:54, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Like the previous poster said, it all depends on what assumptions you made and what you thought was going to happen. Personally, I was BLOWN AWAY by John Locke being in the coffin. I had no clue. I'm still reeling from it today. So, no cliff hanger? Hardly!--Warplayer 10:15, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

You were blown away? Didn't they pretty much tell us who was in the coffin (during the Jack/Ben conversation) before the reveal? Ultimately, I feel that this episode left things exactly the same as last season's final episode: Jack needs to find a way to get back to the island. From season-ending scene (S3) to season-ending scene (S4), there is almost NO progression...--paulski 17:39, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Locke in the coffin was *shocking*, but it really wasn't a *cliffhanger*. We know why he is there, he left the island to convince the O6 to come back to stop bad things from happening. He was probably killed by Widmore/people working for Widmore. We know he can leave the island, we know how (most likely where the sub will come into play), so that's not up in the air. We know when he does this, we know where he comes from and where he goes. What remains as a mystery is what exactly is going on on the island, and how exactly he was killed. Merick 11:24, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

No progression? This season did develop the mythology of the show, maybe more than any season before : we know more about space/time properties, the Monster, Widmore. And don't forget the season had only 13 episodes, there couldn't be as much progression as there would've been with 24. As I said before, I get the impression that this season was more of a turning point, the beginning of the end that lays the foundations for the next two climactic seasons. The only big disappointment for me this year was Michael's return, he hardly had any screentime and then died. They could have done so much better with this character.--Lauridsen77 14:25, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I've reached the point where I'm not sure I'm willing to believe that anyone is dead until the end of season six<grin>.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:10, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• Well, the sub WON'T come into play, as it was destroyed by John way earlier! So I think the question of how John left the Island is absolutely valid!--Overworkedirish 23:54, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• I don't think the sub has anything to do with coming to or leaving the Island; I think it's all a sham put on for DHARMAites who weren't allowed to know the truth. People are teleported to and from the Island without their knowledge. That's why Juliet, and presumably other DHARMAites, had to take a sedative before traveling. At the Island end, they were put into the sub while unconscious, then awakened.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 06:08, 17 June 2008 (PDT)

• I'm not ssuggesting that things didn't happen over the course of the season; yes, we discovered quite a bit. But unlike in season's past, the finale didn't really end with a bang that left us in a new place; in fact, we're right back where we were at the end of last season. Just a bit disappointing, that's all...--paulski 17:39, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I think this episode (compared to ALL episodes, not just season finales) was the funniest ever! Rose's line "Who said you could eat those peanuts?" actually made me laugh out loud, as did several moments in the show. I thought that this season did more throughout the WHOLE episode as compared to just the end as with the previous seasons. The thing I don't like in story-telling is the bomb. It's a stupid last resort that just seems cliched now. Also, I really think they over-blew the concept of the Freighter people vs. the Island people up way out of proportion to the "war" they described it as. If you think about it, Keamy only had like 6 people on his team. Also, I was REALLY REALLY REALLY upset by the lack of Claire, other than in a dream. But overall, I think this was a perfect finale. Also, did anyone else think that Aaron looks mentally challenged in the flash-forwards? --OrangeXenon54 18:35, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I wondered a little about that when Kate went home after her trial ("Eggtown").... At the same time he looked okay in when Kate and Jack were together ("Something Nice Back Home"). He was asleep in this episode, so it was a little hard to tell.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 09:50, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• I was a bit disappointed. I thought revealing that Locke is going to die in the future was a very big bummer. I mean: Locke is still alive in the present, but we already know that he will be dead in the near future. Are we to watch Locke in Season 5 already knowing that he will die? In my opinion, they have revealed too much, this was a big mistake. Also, very little in the way of mysteries, surprises, cliffhangers... it looks as if now they are going to start putting the pieces together, resolving the jigsaw. That's good, from one point of view, but it also means that the show will lose much of its appeal... What I liked most was Charlotte and Miles staying: I'm really curious about these two characters and now want to know what their reasons for staying are. There. --Salvora 18:31, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I love this finale, but "Live Together, Die Alone" still (to this day) is an amazing episode all-around. Forced to rank? I'd say S2 > S4 > S3 > S1. However, I need a rewatch -- there was much to digest in this ep :) AlaskaDave 23:23, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Rose and Bernard

Were they on the freighter (and probably dead) or still on the island? I assume they weren't in Faraday's boat, that was all redshirts, right? It seemed very strange that it didn't show them anywhere, is it an unanswered question or did I miss something. Besides the Others, is anyone left on the island besides Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, Claire, Miles, and Charlotte? --Minderbinder 06:18, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Rose was on the island.

Was she shown there? Do we know that or is that just an assumption since we didn't see her on the boat? --Minderbinder 07:14, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Rose wasn't shown either place, but Rose likes the Island. It cured her of her cancer. It may be that the cure is permanent, but Rose doesn't know. I think she stayed and Bernard stayed with her.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:41, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

It showed Rose talking to Miles when he was eating the peanuts ON the island and I assume Bernard stayed with her, Also it didn't show her with Daniel's last run on the zodiac so she is still on island--Drmagpie 09:37, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Rose said she was staying behind, and Bernard was staying with her. Did the Zodiac make it to the freighter on that last run, is what I want to know? ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:01, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

This episode, or which one? Last I remember her saying either way was when they all split up and she said she was going to leave because Locke was a crazy murderer. Did I miss a flipflop on her part? It seemed like the Zodiac made multiple trips, and it didn't seem clear if she was on one or not. This bit really did seem like the actors weren't available and they just ignored two characters who were getting more attention this season. --Minderbinder 11:31, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

This seemed like a glaring case of cutbacks. Rose and Bernard were really brought to the forefront this season, with lots of important dialogue. I was shocked to see them not pop up once in the finale. I know we are dealing with a shortened order of episodes, but I was disappointed in this.

Um, do you people not read things before you post more responses???? Rose WAS most definitely in the episode...as a previous person said...she had a conversation with Miles. Also, I think Bernard is shown in the background with Vincent at some point. I don't think Bernard would have left without Rose anyway.Davisson444 16:48, 30 May 2008 (PDT)davisson444

I think it was bad that this episode didn't show whether they left or stayed. But I think they are staying. Why would Rose complain that Miles was eating peanuts? If you were to be rescued to a freighter you wouldn't bother about who's eating what, cause you will be rescued soon. And if Rose is staying, so is Bernard. --Salvora 11:18, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Penny on a boat on Day 100, a continuity error?

• On day 91, Penny told Charlie she was not on a boat. On day 94, Christma's Eve, Desmond called her, she is home, and don't have a clue where the Island is. Six days later, she is in the middle of the Ocean, having located the island area and chartered a boat. Isn't it a bit too fast?

Penny already searched for Desmond a long time ago (season 2 finale) and she's pretty rich.. so Desmond called in The Constant, she tracked the call and voila.. there she is with a boat which she probably had all along and hendrik, one of the polar-station or whatever guy.. i think that timing is okay. Jared 06:47, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Six days is plenty of time to get on a boat and head toward the island...she traced his call. Presumably, she took action immediately, seeing as how she's madly in love with Desmond.Thelordnyax 15:45, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Six (or is it eight) days is a little short to sail from England, if that's where Penny was, but the vessel could have been in approximately the right area following the earlier interception and she could have flown to join it after Christmas Eve.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:02, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I'm with Jim on this one - I'll chalk it up to some jet/heli action... Penny's got the means to do this :) AlaskaDave 23:25, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I agree with the above that the timeline is a bit tight. But: she's rich, she owns a tracking station and has people working for her, she could have easily gotten on a plane to the nearest port, then arrange a boat. I think after she got Desmond's call the most logical thing to do is to track the call and get there as soon as possible. She's been looking for him too long. --Salvora 11:21, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Lostfan108's spoiler

• about those spoiler aobut the season finale that were posted on darkufo.. were they correct? i didnt read them i just like to know if he was correct, if there's still a leak?! Jared 06:56, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• Sadly, the info was correct, including the stuff the vandal posted here. I hope they catch the scumbag before the end of next season. --Minderbinder 07:16, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• They should go after the guys who run the web sites for accepting and posting what they know is copyrighted information.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:45, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• I read on here "Locke is in the coffin, that is the Frozen Donkey Wheel". Well the last part was wrong. Also, it didn't ruin the finale one bit for me.--Baker1000 09:34, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Seems like the person was making a guess, possibly based upon the three versions of the coffin shot that were filmed (Locke, Desmond and Sawyer - given those three, I'd guess Locke, too). Jinxmchue 11:18, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• The one I saw said the FDW was an actual, literal wheel on the island. Which was true. --Minderbinder 09:41, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• It's a real shame that some people can't be mature about spoilers, and respect everyone else's wishes.--Baker1000 09:53, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• Amen. It was very disappointing knowing Locke was in the coffin before the closing scene. I expected it to be Ben, and would have been really shocked to see Ben turn up and ruin my theory, if the idiots hadn't spoiled that for me. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 10:06, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Heh, I didn't see any spoilers, I also thought it was Ben... and I still thought it was Ben's body in there even after he turned up and started talking to Jack!! :) --Chesebrgr 03:22, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
• It wasn't as bad as it could have been. I assumed that "The frozen donkey wheel is a literal frozen donkey wheel" was patent nonsense, which also caused me to doubt that "Locke is in the coffin." Still - spoilers... ugh. I think there's nothing for it but to stay completely clear of any Lost-related sites for a good month or two before season premieres and finales next time, which is very unfortunate.--Hylas 10:09, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• Yeh I stayed away from here until I watched the finale, after I saw reports about spoiler-related vandalism, I didn't want to risk it. I did read someone say that it was Locke but I thought they were just stating their own opinion as fact. I thought it was either Ben or Locke and then when Ben turned up I thought it must be Locke, but I'm glad I didn't get it spoiled because it was a good reveal.Liquidcow 10:18, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• My room mate told me the spoilers, setting it up as "dude, you want to hear the stupidest predictions for the finale?" and then proceeded to ruin the entire episode for me. So pissed...--Warplayer 10:21, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• Yes the vandal here spoiled it for me and i blame DarkUFO --Anfield Fox 10:54, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Hey, folks. Let's just chill out a bit. The spoilers are mean-spirited, yes, but the world didn't end and your lives will go on. Let's cut down the "woe is us" rhetoric and move on. Jinxmchue 11:23, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I generally read spoilers as long as they are more teasers and casting type spoilers and not play by plays. I managed to avoid season finale spoilers though which I'm glad of. Two slight nitpicks: 1) Spoilers are not copyright infringement (unless it's a copy of the script or an actual clip of the show) - they are instead violations of Non Disclosure Agreements. 2) DarkUfo did not come to Lostpedia and post any spoilers. The way they posted spoilers, there was no way to see them unless you really wanted to. The vandal is the one to blame.--Jackdavinci 12:32, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• An individual spoiler may not be a copyright infringement, but a synopsis of an entire episode, scene by scene, may be. ABC legal asked them to take it down, and they did, but at that point the damage had already been done. I'd like to see them try and crack down as much as they can. And while the vandal posted them here, darkufo is the one who leaked them in the first place, so I do consider him to share in the blame, especially since the exact same thing happened last year. --Minderbinder 12:51, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I help moderate the Lostpedia forum, and I read the spoilers to help catch vandals/leakers so our users aren't spoiled, and they were correct. However, something changed from last year, as lostfan108 did not release the previously mentioned scene-by-scene descriptions. Further, he knew the true ending to the show, and was not "fooled" by the alternate coffin scenes. That being said, it is safe to say that lostfan108 is someone high up! AlaskaDave 23:28, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I avoided reading any spoilers for the finale. Then I watched the episode and on the first mention of Jeremy Bentham stopped and looked up the name at Lostpedia - d'oh... --lothda 03:19, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
• Plus, in Dark's defence, I read an interview in which he said that basically, if he hadn't posted it, Lostfan108 would have just gone on a blitz and posted it in loads of places, unintentionally spoiling people. By doing it like this, by giving people the choice to read them if they want to, he's done the right thing - damage limitation.--  Lost Soul   talk  contribs  04:19, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

Given the nature of the internet, once a spoiler is posted, there is nothing to stop posting it again. Sure, Lostfan108 may have blitzed other sites, but that happened anyway. The vandalism is inevitable. Ultimately, Dark's only decision was whether or not he chose to use the prominence of his site to help disseminate the spoiler. Doing so may have prevented one vandal, but it likely enabled many more.

Whether or not I agree with it, it's a fair enough decision for Dark to choose to post the spoilers, but suggesting it was done under duress or for the greater good is absurd.--Hylas 08:25, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

"by giving people the choice to read them if they want to, he's done the right thing" That's ridiculous. He posted it, then it WAS blitzed all over the net with no warning. The damage wasn't limited at all, it was the exact same result as last year. I WISH I had the choice of not reading them, I really do. But it's insulting to say that he did it to give people a choice, the result was the exact opposite. --Minderbinder 09:51, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

• That may be true, but that's not his fault. I don't really see why blame is being apportioned on to Dark anyway, considering it's Lostfan that leaked it. It is not Dark's fault that the spoiler got posted ALL OVER THE INTERNET; yes, it is his responsibility that it was posted on his site, but he gave as much warning as he could. I don't know the full story behind this, so I'm not getting embroiled in a row which will get us nowhere.--  Lost Soul   talk  contribs  10:13, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
• He gets some of the blame because the people who posted it everywhere all got it from him. He was the one single site that posted it initially, everyone else got it from him. And he's incredibly naive if he thought that any amount of warnings would have prevented what happened, we all knew what was going to happen. --Minderbinder 10:36, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
• Lostfan108 took something that did not belong to him. When I was a little boy, my parents tought me that was called "stealing!"--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 12:04, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
• An investigation on Lostfan108 should take place to unveil his identity once found he should be sued and fired if he works on Lost as my guesses he does. --JZBux89 3:42, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

Ben's symbolism.

Don't you think that there was some major symbolism going on when Ben was turning "the frozen donkey wheel"? It seems almost biblical to me. dposse 07:01, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• You think there was major symbolism...what did it symboliize? almost biblical...in what way? If you're gonna start a topic, you should probably go into more detail...what you said seems very vague.Thelordnyax 15:47, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Take it easy buddy, I thought there might be some symbolism too, but I haven't memorized the Bible enough for me to pinpoint what it was, and i'm sure Dposse hasn't either. So instead of just posting on here to criticize others, why don't you find out for yourself what kind of symbol this is representative of? Rddswim 12:35, 1 June 2008 (EST)
• I agree - do you mean in the physical act of pushing the wheel, or the wheel itself? Please explain. AlaskaDave 23:35, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• I think they mean the existence of an old wooden wheel on such a mysterious powerful island and the need for Ben to use muscle power to turn it. Pretty archaic for an island with a smoke monster security system. I'm not knocking it, its sure to mean something and I love it- but old school. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Themodernmoppet (talk • contribs) 2008-06-05T16:00:48.
  • That makes me wonder if he went through a similar process when he went to his secret secret room in The Shape of Things to Come in order to summon the smoke monster. --trynottodieman 22:37, 9 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Good Point. He almost certainly didn't press a button next to a numeric readout. That makes me wonder. How good is the control of the Monster in a crowd? It's probably analog rather than digital. After Alexandra's death, Ben likely would have sent the Monster after Keamy, but it attacked one of Keamy's troops. Could it not recognize the difference between one camouflaged figure and another?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 06:43, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

"One Week Later"

I think this is the first time we have seen a time stamp appear at the bottom of the screen. Usually clues are used to give us the time frame for the events. Is the "one week later" the clue that the day to day island count is being abandoned? The producers said that after the finally we would be wondering as to the show's future format. This has proved itself true. Will the regular action of the show now follow the O6 back to the island? Will we see "real time" on island flashes during that week? Will the 2004-2007 island event, "bad things" happen in real time or as flashes? Playsbad 09:28, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• I would guess we follow the Oceanic 6 in real time next year, not sure about how they're gonna do anything else. But I'm pretty sure the one week later was just to catch up to the timeline that they used in the previous episode, with the rescue happening early on day 108. Alexisfan07
• Somewhere (in a podcast?) it was said that next year we will learn about DHARMA. I think Island time will continue to be real time. Of course I have no idea yet what Island time will be.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 10:16, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

In 'The Other 48 Days' we had time stamps, but I guess of a different kind.Liquidcow 10:19, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Lost has always used timestamps. Think about season 2 - Michael's story, the Tail section's story, etc.

• When the island vanished, it seems quite possible that it moved not only physically but also temporally...it might reappear (in the same spot or otherwise) 3 years later...so when the O6 return, to the people on the island, virtually no time will have passed...Thelordnyax 15:50, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
• The time stamp allowed us to relate to the passage of time when Hurley asks why they had to go 3000 miles.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:11, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Jack's Flashforwards

It seemed to me that Jack breaking into the funeral home, meeting Ben, and seeing Locke in the casket actually took place BEFORE his meeting with Kate at the airport, and his knowledge from Ben that they all have to go back together is why he's telling Kate "We have to go back." Anyone else agree? --TimelyPersuasion 10:46, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

No, they've always said when they do flashfowards, they keep them in sequence order in respect to their story. So the finale of Season 3 occurs before anything in the finale in Season 4.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  11:39, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

The flashforwards do seem to be in order in this episode, and they've said they generally do that within an episode, the Sun/Jin one being an exception. --Minderbinder 11:47, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I initially thought that too, but in context of the other flashforwards, it makes sense that Jack's final flash would be at the very end of everything seen thus far.--JoeyBags1138 14:27, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

It seems a little implausible that all of the other flashforwards took place between Jack and Kate's meeting at the airport and Jack's return to the funeral parlor. Hurley's is set during the day, meaning Jack wouldn't have gone back until the next night. Sayid also says that Bentham died "two days ago", which makes it seem like it should be before the airport meeting; at that point, Jack had seen the obituary two days prior.--Hylas 15:15, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

I agree, assuming that the flash forwards happened in sequence, it would mean that Jack meets Kate at the airport one night; the next morning, Walt visits Hurley; that night, Sayid visits Hurley, telling him Bentham has been dead for two days (complicating Jack's possession of the obituary for two days in the opening scene). Sun, in London (nine hours ahead of L.A.), meets with Widmore during the day (plausible if it is night time in L.A. that the same time would be daylight in London. Meanwhile, Kate has the Claire dream and Jack breaks back into the funeral parlor the night after he meets with Kate. One heck of a day! The alternative theory is that the Jack flashbacks at the beginning and the end occur on the same night, and are thus out of order from the other flashbacks. A big question would be, would Kate's dream about Claire likely have occurred before or after her meeting with Jack at the airport? There's no way to know at this point. --LOSTinDC 06:13, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

I agree that it seems that the initial flash-forward and the final scene seem to have taken place the same night. I think all the rest probably occurred after or before the airport scene. Probably Walt visiting Hurley and Sayid breaking Hurley out of the mental hospital occurred before (2 days after Bentham's death). Seeing as how Sun doesn't mention Bentham, her flash forward is up in the air. I feel like Kate's probably occurred after the airport scene because it's possible she was considering what Jack said and thinking about going back, so Claire was warning her not to. But it's also up in the air.--MethodicWays 15:37, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

Unanswered questions

• What did Sawyer whisper to Kate before he jumped off the helicopter? He asks her to do something for him, as per "Something Nice Back Home". Specifically what he asks isn't raised by this episode.
• Why did Locke want Jack to stay on the island? Because he believes that it's their destiny to be on the Island.
• How exactly does the time travelling in the Orchid work? I don't think we can expect a detailed scientific explanation on this.
• Why did the Island allow Locke to die? We don't know that the Island is protecting him. If it is, then this question is redundant with "How does Locke die?"
• Who will replace Locke as leader of the Others? Equivalent to asking "what will happen next?"
• To whom is Sun referring when she mentions the others who made it off the island? Ben. Possibly also Desmond.
• Was Hurley really playing chess with Eko or is Hurley crazy? Or both? This is a general question about Hurley seeing dead people which has already been raised by "The Beginning of the End".
• How does Ben know what is happening on the Island? Jeremy Bentham probably told him.
• What is Jin's status? Boom.
• When Hurley is "playing" chess with Eko, Eko's pieces are moved. How do they get moved if Eko is dead? Not a major mystery.

 Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  10:50, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I agree with some of these, especially the ones regarding Hurley and Eko - it's just part of the general thing of him seeing dead people which has alreayd been raised. However, I think "What did Sawyer whisper to Kate before he jumped off the helicopter?" is a fair question, and one that it is feasible to expect an answer to - he's obviously asking her to do something (I think I heard him mention Hurley) and I'm sure we'll find out what that is at some point.Liquidcow 13:59, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

That one is answered in the show if you listen well enough (or find the clip on youtube where it was cranked up to be easier to hear). He asks her to find his daughter and tell her he is sorry. --Minderbinder 14:15, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

As per the time travel question Halliwax says there is negatively charged exotic matter behind "the vault". I am not physicist but I believe that exotic matter is the holy grail of quantum physics if it exists it is believed to hold open and sustain wormholes so perhaps time travel is achieved by harnessing a worm whole and using the exotic matter to leave it open. Total speculation especially seeing as how there was a tunnel behind the vault.--Enzovalenzetti 17:09, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Has the Island been moved before? Leading question.
  • If so, who moved it? Leading question.
• How is [the frozen donkey wheel] capable of transporting the Island? We can't expect a detailed scientific answer to this.
• Are Jin and the others who were fleeing the freighter still alive? Theory baiting.
• Why does the Orchid tape begin to rewind itself? I just took this to be a VCR malfunction, but I'll leave the question for someone else to remove if they agree.
• Why does the Orchid tape begin to rewind itself? As per Minderbender, can be heard if you crank the volume [1].
• Was Locke able to walk after leaving the island? This question isn't raised by the episode.
• Will going back [to the Island] resurrect [Locke]? Theory baiting.
• Who was on stake out at Santa Rosa and who did they work for? By what we know, probably Widmore.
• Why do they all refer to Locke as Jeremy Bentham? Because he was using the alias Jeremy Bentham.
• Was it really Claire that told Kate [not to bring Aaron back to the Island]? Theory baiting.
• What is Desmond doing after the Island? Not raised by the episode.
• What happened to Lapidus after the Island? Not raised by the episode.
• How is the island still vulnerable if it has moved? Wasn't that the point?
• Not knowing if there are survivors on the island, will palette drops of Dharma Initiative supplies be continued? And, since the island has moved, how could the island be found to make such drops? Not raised by the episode.

 Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  22:36, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Why does Juliet see freighter explosion immediately, and not before it actually occurs like Doc Ray's body washing up on shore?

There's two questions that are constantly being removed and that I suggest need discussing. First: how is Ben responsible for Locke's "so miserable" life as he says inside the Orchid before they part. Ben seems to be referring to pre-island time. Locke seems quite happy on the island, far from miserable despite Ben's inflictions on him. Otherwise, Ben would probably go like "sorry for the harm I've caused you" or something. Second: Why is Richard welcoming Locke home? Come on, there's got to be some greater significance to this, especially after what we've seen in Cabin Fever. There's indications that Locke has been in some sort of contact with the island before. --Tom 05:24, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

I'd say Locke's been given a pretty rough time on the Island. Ben's statement doesn't imply any kind of mystery. As for 'welcome home', I would take that to mean that the island is Locke's new home. The implication seems to be that he is taking Ben's place.Liquidcow 16:07, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

I'd say the "welcome home" reflects that Locke has come to the place that has always been his home. The first time he met Alpert, Alpert asked him to select the things that were already his.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:21, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Forcing you to kill your father, then shooting you in the gut is not exactly making your life fun. As for welcoming Locke "home", since Locke is now joining the Others as their leader, it's his new home. There's nothing more to these two questions.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  16:13, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

I can't agree. Compare Locke's life on the island and pre-island. I don't really think it's so unlikely Ben was referring to the latter. From Locke's perspective he must have, anyway. Locke has a communion with the island. There's a reason why he refuses to be rescued and return to his former life in which he was "miserable" since he had lost everything (family, fiancee, job, ...). As for the "home" question, I'm with gaarmyvet. Especially after what we've seen about Richard and Locke, this makes a lot of sense. --Tom 01:19, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

It's certainly possible that Ben was responsible for making Locke's pre-Island life miserable, but I think that's in the realm of theory. We've seen Ben making his life quite miserable on-Island, so on the face of the episode, there is no unanswered question. We're essentially asking "Did Ben also make Locke's life miserable before he came to the Island?" which is theory-baiting.

I think the significance of "Welcome home" does pose a valid question, since we have been quite clearly shown that Locke has both a destiny and prior history with the Island. The nature of that relationship is teased at in several ways, this is one more, and thus valid question fodder.--Hylas 08:14, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

True, Ben's statement is somewhat ambivalent. It's just curious that he should apologize to Locke at this point and in this way. From Locke's point of view in any case. The whole thing might be connected with the fact that we've seen Abbadon encouraging Locke to go to Australia and change his life for the better. As for the second question I totally consent! --Tom 12:34, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

• ["How does Ben know what is happening on the Island?"] Or, Ben never tells the truth and still has connections to the island. ["What is Jin's status? Boom."] Not neccessarily. The camera shot showed the end of the frieghter where the heli lifted off in tact after the first explosion, then engulfed in flames in the camera changed. Jin was running towards the heli when it lifted off... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Themodernmoppet (talk • contribs) 2008-06-05T16:07:01.
  • According to everything we know (the freighter exploding, Jin's grave, etc) Jin is dead. To suggest that he might not be dead is theory-baiting.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:32, 5 June 2008 (PDT)
  • As of yet, to suggest that he is dead is no less theory-baiting. Since according to the official story the passengers of 815 are dead, except for the O6, Jin's grave is no evidence. We haven't seen him dead, he might as well have survived the explosion. No hard evidence either way. --Tom 11:42, 7 June 2008 (PDT)
  • "Jin's grave" is not a grave. It is a memorial placed by Sun to commenorate her husband who is "lying at the bottom of the Sunda Trench."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 12:31, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

Background survivors

Are we sure that the three survivors on the Kahana are dead? And also does anybody have any pictures of who was on the second zodiac trip? User: LostCloverfield42

from the looks of it, Faraday and redshirts--Enzovalenzetti 17:10, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

vault/wheel

can anyone help me out with this: what's the significance of the vault as opposed to the wheel in moving the island? did Ben just put metal in there so the explosion would break the back wall? unlikely I guess, especially since he showed Locke the orientation video. however, apparently it's turning the wheel that moves the island. furthermore, if the island has been moved before, why was the vault perfectly intact? --Tom 12:14, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• the vault was where DI conducted their experiments to harness the energy and "magic", if you will, of the special matter behind the vault. the vault was perfectly intact because the island hasnt been moved since DI arrived there, but rather prior to there arrival.
• but if it hasn't been moved since DI came there, why couldn't Widmore find the island before the hatch exploded and the purple sky thing gave the location away? --Tom 03:13, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • perhaps it is hidden in space and time, and the purple sky incident exposed it.
  • ya that's what I think. Also, in "The Shape of Things.." Widmore says to Ben "That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again." From this I guess it's safe to deduce that Widmore has been on the island or at least knows where it once was. Hence the island must have been moved before...?! --Tom 11:48, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

I don't think the vault, built by DHARMA, has anything to do with moving the Island. The wheel controls energy output from the source of the "matter." There's a relief valve somewhere that accounts for the energy DHARMA was able to detect. Turning the wheel (think of a spigot) releases enough energy to move the Island and, maybe, do other stuff we don't know about yet.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 09:08, 6 June 2008 (PDT)

• Dharma must have had knowledge of the donkey wheel (and probably what it does) since the pathway was right behind the vault, and we know that the wheel moves the island. On the other hand, we have seen the Dharma polar bear that was excarvated in Tunesia. It traveled through time and space, as did Ben. This is what Dharma was experimenting with. The vault probably made use of the same energy and caused the same effect, like you say, but at a much lower level. So the vault itself could be the valve --Tom 11:19, 11 June 2008 (PDT)
  • I noticed this polar bear/ben connection too...is it possible that they had used the polar bears before to move the island?--Redheadguy719 17:20, 18 August 2008 (PDT)

Questions

1. Why didn't anyone else have the "Desmond dream/time travel sequence" in the helicopter?!?! they HAD to veer off course to find the boat that moved, besides the boat, all along , would have had to be at the end of the "bearing" that they had to follow, since they didn't know how long they had to follow it until they were "safe" to change course and find it.

Desmond was the only one to have been exposed to intense electro-magnetism.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:50, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

2. why were there so many "extra" on the boat, and why weren't any of them "going mad", and why didn't they just jump the hell off!?!?!

3. Why (if Ben had a plan) did he go back to the helicopter with the mercenaries and risk being taken away, if he had to be the one to move the island? that doesn't make sense, he almost left it in John's hands to figure out, which he wouldn't have.

• His plan was to get rid of the mercenaries. He signaled Richard to "seize" and formulated a plan to have the mercenaries taken out. If they had him, they would head back to the chopper where Richard and the others could taken them out. This freed Ben up and allowed him to go back to the Orchid and move the island.

4. where is Walt's dog --Riskymd 12:55, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

1. They followed the bearing all the way to where the freighter used to be. So it had to be safe, and they followed the bearing back toward the island, just as the freighter did.

2. They didn't know there were explosives on the boat...remember Michael asking Sun if she told anyone? she said no.

3. His plan included The Others coming and saving him, which they did. He was confident that they would not fail.

4. I really don't think this is relevant to the story. Thelordnyax 15:57, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Vincent is seen in the background when they are loading up the Zodiac for the last time. I actually do think it's relevant, because after all, Vincent is one of the characters we have known since episode 1 Davisson444 16:59, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

1. When Des had his "side effects" Faraday asked if he'd been exposed to any large amounts of radiation or electromagnetism. The bearing only affected him because of turning the fail safe. It didn't affect the O6, the way it didn't affect Sayid and Frank when the went to the boat with Des. --Gluphokquen Gunih ▲ 17:14, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• So this means that Minkowsky had prior problems with radiation? Because he (and Brandon) went off in a little trip near the coast and both ended up dead (and Minkowsky was clearly suffering the same problem as Desmond). --Daftshadow 06:33, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Probably, but we don't know anything about Minkowsky or Brandon's backstories, so we can only speculate as to why they were effected. If Desmond's exposure was due to the Swan blowing up, then it's possible that Locke, Charlie, and Eko would be vulnerable too. Of course, Eko and Charlie are dead now, but it could be an issue with Locke in the future. --CurlyHairedGuy 09:26, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Molly Fisher

On the wrapper of Hurley's fruit roll-up, the name Molly Fisher appears in the place where the flavor should be. Who is Molly Fisher? I found this odd little piece. The Story of the Molly Fisher Rock Googuse 17:11, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Do you have a screen capture of this? --LOSTinDC 07:47, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Here you go... --Jack in the box 15:23, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• This is def. cool; i wonder if it will tie into a new AR game.--moss ryder 01:46, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

Checkmate Mr. Eko

What say you community was this simply Hurley's madness getting to him after many months/years in the institution or was Hurly visited by many denizens of the island. I really feel like it was an unnecessary thing to put in unless it was important, which give me hope we might be seeing my favorite deceased Lost character, if only briefly, once again. Also found it interesting they used chess since backgammon has been such a staple of the show --Enzovalenzetti 17:26, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I think Mr. Eko was invisible to us because we were following the scene through Sayid's perspective. I don't know about chess. I can't recall ever having seen Hurley or Eko playing--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:56, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I think the characters like Eko, Charlie, and Jack Sheapard are all used by the island to get what the island wants. In this case the island is trying to get Hurley in favor of returning to the island.

In The Beginning of the End, another patient points out Charlie to Hurley. So Charlie, at least, must be at least somewhat corporeal. Scarecrow 09:05, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Fuel leak nitpick

The problem on the chopper wasn't that it was burning too much fuel because there was too much weight onboard, it was that all the fuel was spurting out of a hole. And anyway, Sawyer was maybe 2% of the chopper's weight, and his loss wouldn't have made much of a difference even without a fuel leak. What would have made a difference would've been him leaning over and sticking his finger in the bullet-hole.

yeah i thought the same thing.. this whole fuel leaking scene was a little constructed.. anyway, it was more dramatic and sawyer had to stay on the island somehow i guess ^^ Jared 03:46, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• • Yeah but the point of losing the weight was so the chopper could get more lift and make more efficient use of the fuel while they still had it. --Thenumbersdude 19:28, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

I can tell from what I know about flying helicopters (I'm more of an airplane guy, though), that having someone jump off a helicopter can really make a difference as to how much lift you have. Basically, the aircraft moves faster while burning the same amount of fuel.--Ainulindale 20:02, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

For a Bell 204/205 (Huey) you’re talking about a max takeoff weight of about 9.5K; not some little GA piper tomahawk or Cessna 172 where 200 lbs makes a huge difference. To make that jump survivable, they would have to been in a hover, putting them on the back end of the power curve, and probably pushing max continuous power. Pulling into a hover would have burned much more fuel than they would have saved by having him jump out. The scene was good drama, but probably completely inaccurate from a flying standpoint. --HeloFlyer79 12:16, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

Extras on the zodiac raft

Does anybody have any good pictures of the extras Daniel was shipping to the freighter? I have pictures of them getting ready to put the raft back into the water and only one pic of them on the water. It seems that the actors on the second trip are Steve Tanizaki, Chris Candella, and at least two other that I can see but I don't know ones name and I can't see the others head. I know there should be more that 4 survivors on the raft. I'd watch the episode myself, but I have no way of watching the episode again (Dial-up connection). So if anybody had pictures or knows who is on the raft it would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and while I'm on the subject was there a new background survivor? He might be Reuben Games but I can't tell from the pictures I have. He's wearing a white button up shirt and blue jeans and he has dark brown hair. --User:LostCloverfield42

Looks Like Locke

• Am I the only one who thinks the guy in the casket is a little heavy for Locke? When I turned off the tube, I was looking forward to someone telling me who this guy was and why I couldn't remember him from four seasons of lost.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:47, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• The writers verified it was going to be somebody we've already met. It was clearly Locke. Watch the ep again.--Overworkedirish 23:54, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

• Corpses may have loads of make-up on them. It's just a practice. I thought Locke looked really weird, as with tones of make-up, but I'm under no doubt it was Locke.--Salvora 11:24, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

I like calling him Fatter Corpse Locke (following the habit of Comparative Adjective-Noun-Name, as in Taller Ghost Walt). But, to stay on-topic, yes, it is definitely Locke, just... fat, for some reason, and with loads of make up. I'll add he looks smokin' with that suit.--Ainulindale 20:04, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

It could also be the pillow used to prop up his head in the casket. Pillows are murder on necklines when filming. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Akbar56 (talk • contribs) 2008-06-02T14:19:23.

Ah, very good point there, anon.--Ainulindale 16:47, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• I guess I am the only guy who was confused<grin>. Thanks for the feedback.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 12:46, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

I have to say I didn't instantly recognise the corpse as Locke, you may have been confused because of the makeup and the suit, which nicley covers up his neck.--LOST-4 (Talk) 12:54, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• I think it's because he is clean shaven. He looks a little weird with no stubble.--Baker1000 17:16, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

RF interference

So we never find out what was causing the RF interference on the freighter, which prevented it from getting closer to the island, right? Merick 11:17, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

I took it as the unnecessary and plothole-creating Dead Man's Trigger on Keamy's arm.--HaloOfTheSun 02:07, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

It was the bomb. For the deadman's trigger to work, there has to be a signal between the bomb and Keamy's heart rate monitor. Our boatman even says "something is broadcasting". They couldn't stop the broadcast because it would set off the bomb. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Supplicant (talk • contribs) 2008-06-02T16:17:35.

The scene where Sayid spots the gas leak

Okay, Watch that 5 five seconds again. Now tell me it doesn't look like an amaturistic school project video :). I mean you could clearly see it was filmed with a blue(green?) screen and that the helicopter doesn't really move. It looked like they pasted 5 seconds that was very poorly edited(filmed). Has any1 else noticed this? --Avudim 00:48, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• yeah lol. i remember thinking it looked like these old movies where someone is supposed to drive a car, and they have a movie rolling in the background on a screen to make it look as if the car is actually moving.--FabC 09:43, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
• Haha yes i was a little disturb by that amateurity

What I thought was worse was the first scene where they lift up in the helicopter, and the jungle below them clearly has roads running through it. Also the freighter exploding made me lol. Scarecrow 09:13, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Autorotation

While it's true that a controlled descent of a helicopter (i.e. autorotation) is possible after a loss of power, it's not possible to pull it off at a low altitude. Since the heli was obviously flying low, i suggest this part of the "Bloopers and continuity errors" be deleted. (not to mention other issues with landing a helicopter on a water surface) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orcinus (talk • contribs) 2008-05-31T07:34:27.

I disagree completely with your statement; in fact the only reason I came to the “pedia” was to see if there were any other pilots who thought EVERY helicopter scene was as unrealistic as I do. The height/velocity diagram for that helo (looks like a huey to me) would make it very easy to auto from anything above about 20' AWL so long as they were above ETL (they clearly were). In fact, check the link (it just happens to be for a UH-1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height-velocity_diagram --HeloFlyer79 12:48, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• If I were in a helicopter running out of fuel about to crash into the ocean, I'd wait for it to get low then jump into the sea, rather than wait for it to crash and break apart with bits of metal and shrapnel everywhere. I don't know, it just seems to me like I'd have a better chance of survival than staying inside. Maybe I'd be wrong but thats what my instincts would tell me to do!--Chesebrgr 03:37, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Mysterious Island reference

What element of this episode references Capt. Nemo's "electrically charged projectile"? Clamshell 08:31, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• Dont know about captain Nemo, but "electrically charged projectile".. that must have been a reference to the darts thing the other use (that we saw in the season 2 finale and later on in season 3) ?--FabC 09:45, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • If I remember correctly, Captain Nemo uses electric weapons to help the survivors against a horde of monkeys.
    • That's fine, but my question was about what part of this episode references that moment? Clamshell 12:26, 5 June 2008 (PDT)
      • when the others attack keamy and his team, in the first part of the episode, when they're holding Kate, Ben and Frank prisonner next to the helicopter. Some of them start to go into the jungle to hunt for others, then the whole fight starts. One of them gets jumped on by an Other from a tree, another one gets caughts by that rope thing they use, and finally one of keamy's men gets an electrical dart in his neck.--FabC 08:15, 6 June 2008 (PDT)

What Sawyer whispers to Kate

The first part is clearly audible. He says, "I have a daughter..." There has been a lot of speculation about what Kate was doing for Sawyer off-island. This seems like a pretty big and obvious clue.--Andreabt 11:01, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• "I have a daughter in Alabama, you need to find her, tell her I'm sorry." - I think at least. --Sawyerissexy 17:29, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
• But wouldn't she be in Albuquerque, because that's where he left the money when he got out of jail in Every Man for Himself. Alabama sounds close to Albuquerque so maybe he said that. Rddswim 12:46, 1 June 2008 (EST)
  • I've tried quickly running the line through the noise reduction filter in my sound editing program. It's still quite distorted because there's not much difference between the words and the noise, but there definitely seems to be a "k" sound, so he must say "Albuquerque". Also it might be "tell her I love her" but I'm not certain. It's definitely "Albuquerque", though. R'win 12:18, 4 July 2008 (PDT)

"Go back" & "get back"

• Not that I care for statistics, but I'm pretty sure that this double episode comes first as for the number of times that they say they "have to go/get back." First, to go back is in nearly all of the flashforwards (Jack and Kate, Hurley and Sayid, Jack and Ben). But also, on the island, it is said on a few occassions: Hurley asks if they can go back for Claire, Juliet tells Daniel she will see him when he gets back, Jack tells Kate they will go back for Sawyer, and Sun wants the helicopter to go back for Jin.--Salvora 11:37, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• I do believe 'We have to go back' has replaced 'Get Jack' as the most over used phrase in Lost! --LostCat 11:39, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Simple Question

• I didn't hear what Juliet replies to Sawyer when he asks if that is their boat. Can anyone answer this?--Salvora 11:49, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • "It was."--TechNic|talk|conts 12:54, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
    • Thanks!--Salvora 05:46, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

Hurley and Walt

• Hurley should be thinking that Michael died on the freighter, cause he knew Michael was there (Sun would have told him) and because he saw the freighter explode with his own eyes. So, why doesn't he tell Walt, why does he let him think that his father is still alive and on the island?--Salvora 11:57, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • To not give him false hope since the freighter exploded with Michael 5 feet from the bomb.
  • Also, that there's no chance, even assuming the Island intervened, that Michael is alive, since the bomb in question weighed 3 times as mucha as him (at least, and if I'm doing my math right)--Ainulindale 20:09, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
    • People, none of that explains why Hurley does not tell Walt that Michael is dead...By not telling, he IS giving false hope! --Salvora 05:48, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
      • I took it that Hurley just doesn't know how to tell him that his father is dead, and takes the easy way out by just saying "yeah".--Chesebrgr 03:43, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
• Also, why didn't any of the O6 get in touch with Walt to tell him about his father? It wouldn't have been an unreasonable thing to do for Sun, for instance, as she was the one closer to Michael. Especially, as saying that Michael died trying to help them would help clear his name, which is of great symbolic value.--Salvora 12:08, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Obviously to perpetuate the lie and prevent anyone from finding out that Walt was a survivor too.
  • Didn't he have to live under an assumed name after they got back? If so, it would have made it difficult to find him. Tsunomaru 23:11, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
    • • • We don't know that sun told hurley anything about micheal in the state she was in.--moss ryder 01:53, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

I took it as being a hint that Michael survived and is actually on the Island. Something to do with Christain appearing to him would be my guess. How would Hurley and Walt know about this? If only they had been in recent contact with someone from the Island... ;)  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  13:01, 31 May 2008 (PDT).

The Six, right after their rescue, have to deal with the media watching their every move. Under the cover story, they have no reason to know Michael or Walt, both of whom are considered to be dead.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:15, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

and how in the world are theysupposed to find Walt? Probably the only reason that "Jeremy Bentham" could find Walt is because, being the leader of The Others, he's got a lot of resources...Thelordnyax 20:40, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

I also wondered if maybe Hurley didn't tell Walt about Michael because he's still seeing him. Maybe he feels uncomfortable because he can still communicate with Michael. --MethodicWays 15:49, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

I felt it may have been possible that Michael was actually rescued by Christian, perhaps somehow teleported away before the explosion. We hear Christian tell him "You can go now," then it's actually quite some time later (seconds, but that's all it might take) before the bomb goes off. Just like Jin, we didn't actually see Michael die.Sithboy 22:39, 20 June 2008 (PDT)

Kate's dream

When Kate picks up the phone in her dream, the voice at the other end of the line seems to say something in reverse. has anyone figured out what it is? --Tom 12:43, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

A man's voice says "The Island needs you. You have to go back before it's too late".--TechNic|talk|conts 13:13, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

thanks! --Tom 13:16, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

I have discovered one of my psychological quirks: whenever I see or hear anything about reversed messages or anagrams, tears well up. Any psychologists wanna help me?--Ainulindale 20:24, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

You must have loved Twin PeaksKlassobanieras 05:07, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Okay help me out. Why do you think in the dream first gets a call saying that 'you gotta get back' and then sees Clarie saying 'don't you ever take Aaron back'? Doesn't Aaron belong to 'the group' (the six plus more) that has to go back to the island? Or is there something else going on in the dream like two opposite forces or something. (Even I don't believe this but here I said it...) --Jack in the box 15:30, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• Maybe there is more than one source influencing Kate's dream. I kind of think that Ben is lying so he can get to Penny--moss ryder 01:56, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
• The Six are no longer a group and may not have been even before they landed at Barber's Point. They've fractured into "go back" and a "don't go back" elements. Who's in what group is a moving target.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 08:08, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Yes, but two different paths for Kate and all in the same dream. Maybe she has to go back but without Aaron, and again Ben said ”all” probably including Walter.--Jack in the box 13:07, 8 June 2008 (PDT)

Why they need to lie

I still don't see the logic in why they would have to lie about the island. why would telling the truth endanger the people that they left behind from Jack's point of view, instead of prompting search/rescue missions? --Tom 12:58, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

• It would cause people to look for, and possibly find the island. I think that would cause Widmore to step up his efforts to find the island BEFORE anyone else did, which would be a bad thing. It would also expose all the murders they all comitted on the island (every one of the O6 killed someone on the island.. except Aaron of course). They also know Ben will do anything to prevent that from happening. I think it's pretty obvious, no offense, that it's better for everyone involved if they didn't tell the truth.
  • Forgive my poor memory, but who did Hurley kill?--Ainulindale 20:12, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
    • At the end of Season 3, when there was a big fight at the survivors' camp, Hurley saved the day by crashing out of the jungle with Roger Workman's van, running over an Other in the process. Tsunomaru 23:14, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
      • Ohhh, now I remember. Great scene. The fact that people still call Roger "Roger Workman" is funny.--Ainulindale 10:57, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Also Hurley believed he was responsible for the death of a girl who died when a balcony he was standing on collapsed. It was Season One the last time they mentioned that though I think.--LostCat 11:44, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Hurley (and several other Losties) buried Nikki and Paulo alive, although nobody knows this.Petrarch1603 12:52, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
• Any "murders" they committed on the island are irrelevant; the island isn't a part of any country, and thus is not subject to any laws. Jack's argument runs along the lines of "someone extremely powerful wants the world to think everyone on flight 815 is dead, and I really don't think it's a good idea to contradict that person publicly". The people on the freighter were sent there to kill them all, and Jack believes that if the survival of the people on the island were known, it would encourage said powerful person to redouble his efforts to find and kill them. Which doesn't entirely make sense, but there you have it. unless 17:47, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I agree with unless second argument, I think that's what Jack seemed to think in the episode. However, it is not true that the crimes are irrelevant because the island belongs to no country. There are countries in the world whose judiciary power has the power to hear and examine crimes outside their own borders, if those crimes were against nationals of that country. Thus, Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was extradited from the UK to Spain because Spain was investigating crimes committed in Chile against Spanish citizens. I do not know if this applies in other countries as well, it is likely to vary from country to country, but since many of the O6 are american citizens, and many of the "murdered people" were also americans, the USA judiciary power would have an interest in examining these cases, even if they were committed abroad.--Salvora 05:57, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
• Even if they didn't technically commit any crimes, if you were in their situation would you want to tell the family of, for example, Edward Mars that you euthanized him? The AMA frowns upon active euthanasia, and he could possibly end up having his medical license revoked. Even so, they now know that there are people out there (Widmore) who are willing to kill the folks on the Island if they find it. So in order to protect all the people who didn't get a chance to leave, they let the Island remain hidden.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  18:22, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
• But Widmore is looking for the island anyway, trying to find it before anyone else does. They don't change that with their lie. Jack's not helping those they left behind in giving Widmore all the time in the world to find the island. --Tom 00:57, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Not only that. One can argue that the best way to protect the other survivors on the island is exactlely to make public domain its existence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nifft (talk • contribs) 2008-06-06T13:11:05.
• Also, if they'd tell the whole truth about everything that happened, people might not believe them.. a smoke monster, disappearing island, the others.. what the --? you know. but anyway, the would endager themselves cause Widmore definitely had something against everyone in the world knowing about HIS island. plus after Jack saw that there really is some greater power and i guess he finally believed it, he could think there's something else really dangerous, something unexplainable and Jack couldn't live with telling people that, cause you know Jack, he is stubborn and maybe he also wants to keep lying to himself.. i don't know, guess it's not that important.. he just lied and now we know it was his idea and not Oceanic's.. Jared 02:13, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
• You're probably right about Jack anticipating that people wouldn't believe them. His argument "we have to lie in order to protect the ones left behind" however doesn't seem to fit in for me. Unless your second point is right: Jack has changed his mind and is starting to believe that Locke might be right after all, without seeing too clearly yet. In effect, Jack is just doing what Locke asked him to do.. --Tom 02:36, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Yes, the motivation to lie could be dictated by a deeper -- not completely consious -- reason in the mind of Jack. But this does not explain why the others in the group should agree with him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nifft (talk • contribs) 2008-06-06T13:11:05.
• I think that Jack and all the O6 have plenty of reason to lie. First, their story is too unbelievable. Second, they have sensed that there is "someone very powerful" they don't want to upset, even if they don't know who that is. Third, they have killed people, they don't want to give explanations, they have been through an ordeal and they want to rest and chill out. Fourth, Jack has reason to believe Locke, even if he doesn't want to: he has seen his father on the island; furthermore, he found his father's coffin on the island but the corpse was not inside, that's quite a weird thing... even if he does find it difficult to believe in miracles, he has seen some weird stuff. --Salvora 06:08, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
• From what he's saying, Jack fears what might happen to themselves and those left behind if they made public that the plane that was found at the bottom of the ocean wasn't Oceanic 815. Hence I believe your second reason to be quite true. The O6 would be in danger since Widmore doesn't want the island's existence or whereabouts to be revealed. The only thing is, if they did talk nonetheless, I don't see how this would endanger the people left on the island instead of generating a chance that they might be rescued in spite of Widmore. Know what I mean? --Tom 11:49, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
• Let's go with what they all agreed to be the reason, without speculation as to murders and stories that are too fantastic. Those are just fan theories. What he said was, "What do you think would happen to us?", that is the O6 would be in danger since someone very powerful is trying to make the world think that every passanger died, and they want all of them dead. Well, if that's the case, why would they come back as themselves? If their plan is to appease the powerful forces, they should have come back with aliases, just like Michael, Walt and later Locke. No, they decided to come back with their own identity, and raising the question as to how it's possible for every passenger to be already confirmed dead. If they're willing to expose Widmore to that level, why not also say, "Hey, more survived, and they were alive when we last saw them". I just don't buy this at all. Kasajian 16:37, 1 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Good argument! Either this is a massive illogicality, which I don't think, or there's more to this yet to be revealed. --Tom 12:44, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
    • They were rather careful not to expose Widmore at all, crafting a story that fits in with the staged wreck. Weighed against giving up regular contact with their former lives, seems like a reasonable risk to me - for everyone except for Kate, who had nothing to return to except outstanding charges. Perhaps she wanted to be with Jack.--Hylas 15:22, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
      • According to the rest of the world, everyone on the flight was supposed to be dead. The fact that even one of them is back raises the question as to who the people were that were found in the airplane under the sea.Kasajian 06:11, 4 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Makes sense as long as it's only their own lives that's at stake. But what this doesn't explain is why Jack says that lying (=supporting Widmore's story) was the only way to protect those left on the island. --Tom 01:19, 4 June 2008 (PDT)
      • That doesn't make sense either. However, it still doesn't make sense even protecting their own lives.Kasajian 06:11, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

I think you've all hit the nail on the head. It makes sense to lie but not for the reasons Jack is giving. Lying doesn't protect everyone on the Island. It gives Widmore full discretion to continue chasing it and to figure out how to exploit it. I think that Jack and the other convinced themselves that ti was to protect the others because it's easer than believing that they are lying selfishly. Which is part of why I think Sun's so removed from the group. She clearly never wanted to lie but who will believe her when everyone else is sticking to the story? --MethodicWays 15:57, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

• I believe you're right about the first part. The reasons Jack gives for lying don't really make sense. However, they aren't necessarily lying selfishly. Locke asked Jack to lie. Maybe Jack cannot admit to himself that Locke was right after all. --Tom 06:23, 8 June 2008 (PDT)

• Jack thinks he can trick everyone, including Widmore, into thinking there's no connection between the O6 and The Island. If there's no connection, then Widmore won't try to use them to find the island, either through coercion or by simply looking in the general area of Mumbata. Of course, Jack is wrong, Widmore is clearly on to them as seen throughout season four, but this nevertheless was his original rationale for the lie. Is it totally rational? No. After all, it was a snap decision made under a lot of stress. Also, I think it's pretty clear the writers set up "the lie" in order to tear it down, which they hint at with the skeptical reporters at the press conference, and the "815 Conspiracy" video found on the Season 4 DVD.

Frozen Wheel / Frozen Battery

Has anyone noted the parallel between Michael freezing the bomb battery, and the "frozen donkey wheel"? If the battery thaws, the bomb's power is restored and it can detonate. Same goes for the wheel. It is being kept in a frozen state, and by Ben's moving the wheel, it thaws whatever is attached into restoring its power. --Brother 20:13, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Adam Savage

Pretty cool that Adam Savage chimed in about the bomb; I'm just surprised he didn't mention the radio link, considering he has extensive experience building radio control systems and would understand the extreme creative license taken by the writers in setting up the suspense devices for the finale. Don't they ever let a guy with an electrical engineering degree into the writers' room? (Damon and Carlton, I'm available...) Robert K S (talk) 22:41, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, that was pretty cool. Popular Mechanics actually has a few cool articles on Lost ... Anyway, perhaps Savage is as big of a Lost nerd as we all are, and he heard the producers' commentary on the satellite phones. --michael_is_NOT_in_the_coffin 10:39, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

Keamy:Ben::Vader:Luke

It might be / probably is a personal bias, but I think there's something considerable in the comparison between Keamy taunting Ben in the dark to Vader doing likewise to Luke in Return of the Jedi -- a reference that was included in a previous version of the page and since removed. I, for one, thought of the connection immediately the first time I saw it, and I got excited when I saw that somebody else had thought to include it. Now considering the long, established history of Star Wars references, it's hardly unprecedented; the question is whether the connection is strong and clear enough to make the main page. I wonder, how many people who were previously familiar with RotJ thought of this scene right away when they saw No Place Like Home 2-3? Tsunomaru 23:06, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

It's definitely not. This kind of scene is used often in many shows. I've watched RotJ, but hated it as I did all SW movies, and I remember that scene very clearly. If there is a connection, it is far too obscure.--Ainulindale 11:00, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

You're be silly, it's CLEARLY a reference to Return of the Jedi. The producers are outspoken fans about it. What, are you going to tell me the Wookiee prisoner gag (as referenced by Sawyer in S3) isn't actually a Star Wars reference? --Syn 4:23, 2 June 2008

I completely agree. When I first saw the scene I INSTANTLY thought of the Vader/Luke scene in ROTJ. --Themorgan 14:35, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Well, scenes like that have been around forever, so to speak. --moss ryder 02:02, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

Kate Flashforward

The flashforward is for Kate and Aaron, not just Kate, therefore I would like an explanation as to why the removal of Aaron is continuing to occur. --Xbenlinusx 23:16, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Although Kate and Aaron feature in the same scenes, they are all from Kate's point of view and not Aaron's. I assume that's why people are removing him. I also feel that these flashes should not be counted as Aaron's--TechNic|talk|conts 16:17, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

Agreed. Although Aaron is present in a part of Kate's flashforward, he does not interact, as compared to "No Place Like Home," where he did.

Then why do we have a picture showing Claire and Aaron, instead of Kate? Picture should be changed then. Aaron certainly interacts - with Claire. --Xbenlinusx 23:10, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

I understand your point Xbenlinusx, but I think just as Something Nice Back Home was considered a Jack flashforward and not a Jack & Kate flashforward (even though she was featured in it prominently), since the perspective is shown as being from one character's perspective, it should be considered a flashwhatever for that character (the one the audience is "with"). For example, Jack suspects Kate of something that neither the audience nor Jack knows about ("Something Nice Back Home") / Kate is surprised to hear noises in Aaron's room that neither we nor she knows about. ("There's No Place Like Home, Part 2")

Yes, Aaron is there and he interacts. But the same can be said for Shannon in "Hearts and Minds." We don't count Sayid getting a flashback in "Exodus," though it cuts to his perspective briefly, because he is in Jin's flashback as a cameo. Yes, Aaron is not a cameo, but neither was Shannon in Boone's. The fact that they are a part of each others' futures does not mean it's Aaron's flashforward. We don't count Jin for every single Sun flashback, and they interact all the time. Why? Because it's from Sun's POV. Things happen all the time that the other characters can't see that just we can see, even if it's from "their" POV. You can't get THAT technical, you'll go crazy if you do. Remember when Ana Lucia was on the phone with her mom and we saw her mom on the other end of the line? OF COURSE Ana couldn't see her mom. As proven with the flashforwards, what we're seeing isn't exactly what the character is seeing from their past, but rather a narrative way of telling a chapter of their lives. And in this case, Kate's. Besides that, the reason it says "Oceanic Six:" is because we're saying it's an Oceanic 6 episode, but also clarifying who got flashforwards. Sorry, but if Aaron was meant to have a flashforward, Jack wouldn't have gotten two. There is room. So NO, it is not an Aaron episode. He's important to the plot, as was Rousseau, but neither got coverage. Who knows why? The point is he didn't. And I don't think you can threaten what you have in your posts since it was singular decision. Alexisfan07

Whispers, pre-helicopter attack

Has anyone worked out what the voices are saying in the seconds before the other's attack on the Helicopter? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nik Doof (talk • contribs) 2008-06-01T04:00:57.

Split out recordings here [2]. Hard to tell what most of it is. --Minderbinder 09:00, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Phone used by Sun?

I've been trying to figure this out and failed, so... What kind of phone is Sun using when she's in London, just before talking to Widmore? --Dawyv 22:50, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

It appears to be a Motorola flip phone. Nothing too spectacular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Akbar56 (talk • contribs) 2008-06-02T14:14:57.

Portuguese speaking sequence

For the accent matters, just to point out that this is some non-native portuguese speaker (for instance, american), trying to speak Brazilian Portuguese. The production casted someone that probably knew how to speak Portuguese fluenty, but with a heavy foreign accent. This is common pratice in some shows, like for instance some episodes of "The Unit", where the Portuguese was barely understood.

In this case, it is intended to be indeed Brazilian Portuguese, because European Portuguese speakers never use "Olhada" ("to have a look"). They use "vem ver" or "anda ver" (ver= verb "to see"). Obviously, I know this because I'm Portuguese :)

They should had cast another rodrigo santoro for that scene :P --Netshark 14:38, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

Good observation. (I had been troubled by the use of the word "bizarre.") I suspect that the nationality of the Searcher's crew is not a plot buster, except to the extent that the crewmembers are outsiders who know the truth about the Six's staging to arrive in Mambata. That could be a plot element.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:13, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Character Arc Trajectories... so far

Now that season four has wrapped up, I think it is a good time to assess the positions of each character's story.

• Jin - Had marriage problems. Marriage improves. He adjusts his controlling issues and his temper. He finds out Sun cheated. Forgives her, and then he dies. Seems appropriate and complete.
• Michael - Has bad relationship with Son. Relationship improves. They learn to get along. He kills people for them. Regrets his decision. Feels guilt, and makes amends. Then he dies. Also satisfactory.
• Desmond - I put Desmond next because I feel his story may be over. Desmond has been trying to get back to Penny for many years. He has found her and will never leave her again. Has he overcome his cowardly issues by committing to her, or does he still have to work that out? I think his arc his complete, and will be a less serious character in the last two seasons.
• Sawyer - Although Sawyer will obviously play a main role throughout the show I feel his story has come to an end as well. He has gone from the most unlikeable and selfish person on the island, to the guy who jumps out of a helicopter to save others. Will Sawyer still have centric episodes?
• Hurley - Still has major issues. Considers himself insane, and has not gotten the self confidence to help himself yet. These issues will be explored through the numbers and his return to the island.
• Sayid - Still lives a life of violence. Must seperate himself from his violent ways.
• Bernard - Never had what it takes to be a leader. In SOS his ideas go nowhere, but now people look to him for help. He will play a leadership role in the last two seasons.
• Rose - Must choose between Cancer and staying on the island.
• Juliet - Is a prisoner of the Island, and must get off, to get away from Ben and back to her sister. Based on her name, I see tragedy for Juliet.
• Kate - Seems to have overcome her legal issues, and is now able to stay in one place. In something nice back home, she even seems to have overcome her relationship issues. Now she must sort out the Aaron thing and she is good.
• Jack - Still has all his issues and they have all come to a climax. His alcoholism, his guilt, his sense of failure are all at a maximum. He must save everyone to help himself.
• Ben - Still evil, must become good.
• Locke - Locke must learn to correctly interpret his fate. His flind faith has led him down a bad path, and his everlasting trust in the island has led to "very bad things." Locke must learn from Ben's mistakes and put morality before assumed destiny.Playsbad 11:34, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• • I don't really think I would say Ben is evil per se. I think he was very chastened by the murder of Alex and redeemed himself slightly by allowing Jack and Co to leave the island eventually. Yes, he is very selfish and manipulative but I wouldn't call him evil.When he killed Keamy an in turn the people on the freighter, it was a crime of passion. As we don't know exactly what his flash forward exploits are about yet we can't really judge whether they are good or bad. I do think he's a good guy, just not a moral good guy like Jack. As for Desmond and Penny... surely we're allowed 'one' happy ending!? What does everyone else think?

--LostCat 12:22, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• • • I agree. I think Ben is still in the midst of a moral improvement.Playsbad 13:06, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
• The discussion shifts from Ben to Desmond.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 05:48, 9 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Notes:
    • Agree, noting that he will be important as Daniel's constant.
      • He also may have to protect Penny from Ben.Playsbad 13:06, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Hurley is more comfortable with himself when he's on the Island.
    • I'm not sure about Kate; I don't think she's gotten out of the triangle with Jack and Sawyer.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:02, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
  • I think she decided on Jack, But now with Jack wanting to go back she's goin' nuts.:)--moss ryder 02:41, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

Desmond still may come into the Ben/Widmore conflict. Perhaps a showdown with Ben over Penny's life? Really, I don't remember Ben and Desmond ever talking to each other, which is odd, since I'd think Ben would be interested in him.

Sawyer doesn't seem to have much to do..I don't believe any character has had such a gap between centric episodes as Sawyer does now. Perhaps he'll end up being the father to his daughter that his father never was to him? Or nobly sacrifice himself for something.

You didn't mention Juliet..at first she was all about "do anything to get off the island" but we haven't really seen that intensity recently. She'll probably serve to solve some of the mysteries relating to the Others and the Island so that we don't just get a bunch of Richard/Locke conversations. She still needs to be reunited with her sister. Merick 13:12, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

• You said that for Jack "He must save everyone to help himself." But i would most likely think it ends up being something along the lines of "Must help himself before he can save everyone."

• I'm disturbed you find people's deaths "satisfying". --Xbenlinusx 23:11, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

• • Not to argue semantics but I used the term "satisfatory" which has a slightly different connotation. In all seriousness however, I only meant in terms of the story being complete. Did not mean to disturb.

A question to muslim losties Re: moving mountains & islands

Since the finale I was thinking about moving islands and what that could allude to and the first thing that came to my head was an old proverb which rougly translates to "If the prophet don't come to the mountain, the mountain comes to the prophet". I'm pretty sure this referes to Mohammed. But, since I'm not a muslim, I don't feel qualified enough to add this as cultural reference (I don't want to hurt anyones feeling by writhing half-true bullshit). However, I found the Sura (52, Verse 10) which is about moving mountains... I think this is a reference worth mentioning, especially since it comes from a context of changing the minds of unbelievers, just as Locke tried to convince Jack with a miracle. I would be happy if someone more qualified would research this and, if my guess turns out to be correct, add it to the cultural references.--HenrieSchnee 12:47, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

• There is also the verse in the Bible where Yeshua says "'I say to you, if you have faith, you can say to this mountain, 'cast yourself into the sea' and it will be done.'" or something like that; I paraphrased it a little. Oh, and I always thought that proverb was 'If the mountain won't come to Muhammed, then Muhammed must go to the mountain.' --Thenumbersdude 13:34, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
  • Thenubersdude has the expression the right way round. It is thought to have been coined by Francis Bacon [3] rather than coming from the Qur'an.--TechNic|talk|conts 13:53, 3 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Maybe so, but I was talking about the german proverb "Wenn der Prophet nicht zum Berg kommt, kommt der Berg eben zum Prophet", a phrase implying something like "If it isn't possible the easy way, let's do it the very hard way".--HenrieSchnee 14:06, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

• • I think this is also clearly a reference to the hit song "Move Any Mountain" by The Shamen. --Xbenlinusx 23:12, 3 June 2008 (PDT)

Distance

Is Ben's statement that Richard and his people are two miles west the first concrete statement regarding distances that we've ever had?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 10:25, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

• No. "LOCKE: Whether you stay is up to you. The camp is 4 miles due west." "Hearts and Minds" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LOSTinDC (talk • contribs) 2008-06-04T12:51:52.
• Ben also tells Sawyer that the small island is two miles away from the main island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Silentweapon (talk • contribs) 2008-06-08T21:17:06.
  • Where does Ben say that? I recently re-examined the transcript for that Sawyer episode and couldn't find Ben giving a distance between islands. Robert K S (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2008 (PDT)
    • Oh sorry, Sawyer says, "We ain't on our island. We're on another island, like Alcatraz, couple miles off shore. So unless you're a mermaid, or you got a boat, there ain't no point." to Kate in the episode "I Do." So I guess Sawyer just assumes this. My mistake. Silentweapon 13:33, 9 June 2008 (PDT)
  • But Juliet does say it to Jack in "Not in Portland": JULIET: Your friends aren't going to make it back to your side of the island because we're not on that island. We're on a smaller island two miles offshore. --LOSTinDC 13:49, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

Good. There are some neat, non-canon, maps of the Island, but none of them come with a scale. Now we have three distances. I would note though, that saying "a couple" in conversation is not quite the same thing as saying "two."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:44, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

Time Fluctuation

This is driving me crazy, so hopefully some of you can shine some light on this, because it's going to effect how we edit things, including on this episode.

At Comic-Con, when someone asked a question about time, Lindelof noted that "You're making the basic assumption that they've been there as long as they think they've been there". This seemed to hint at some great time flucuation with the real world, which was further propagated when Faraday mentions to Jack that "Your perception of how long your friends have been gone, it's not necessarily how long they've actually been gone".

However, we find that when the Oceanic 6 return to the mainland, they are explicitly mentioned in the press conference as having been gone for 108 days, the right amount of time that they had perceived to have passed. So what gives? Have they abandoned the idea of time moving faster / slower on the island as opposed to the rest of the world? I understand that idea of time shifting in a crazy manner when you don't follow the right bearings, but as far as the world goes, the show has seemed to say that the time you spend on the island corresponds perfectly with how time passes off the island. What do you guys think? --michael_is_NOT_in_the_coffin 10:57, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

I was a little confused about this too. I was expecting to find out in part 1 of TNPLH that they had been gone for something like a year and a half (so that Christmas still matches for Penny and Desmond's phone call), not just 108 days. One possibility I just thought of: I don't recall how often the characters on the show have actually referenced the current date, or how long it's been, etc. They certainly never acknowledged Thanksgiving and Christmas (except for Desmond and Sayid on the Freighter). The main points I remember where time is specified are the "time stamps" used in some episodes (such as the Tailie's episode, or Michael's stay with the Others). Could those time stamps, by any possibility, be from the real world point of view, while the people on the island might actually be thinking some other value? Clamshell 12:55, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Good point, the current day count that Lostpedia has been keeping seems to take a lot of liberties (not accounting for scenes that might intersect with each other, etc). Either way, I really hope the producers address this, and that it's somewhat coherent. Otherwise, things may get crazy in terms of keeping track of timelines on Lostpedia. --michael_is_NOT_in_the_coffin 13:36, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

Mr.Eko's Shadow

A freind recently told me he spotted the shadow of mr.eko after hurley plays chess with him. Would it be possible to check this is correct? It could be interesting. let me know here or on my talk page --Hostile108 11:30, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

There's a shadow cast onto the chair... from the table. Robert K S (talk) 19:44, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

Claire's appearance in Kate's dream

During Kate's dream, Claire says, "don't you dare bring him back!" It sounds like Evangeline Lilly's voice not Emilie De Raven's. Has anyone looked at that? --Dawgmatic 12:04, 5 June 2008 (PDT)

• Hard to tell, but you could actually be right! what does everyone else think? --Tom 12:02, 7 June 2008 (PDT)
• Maybe it's Evangeline Lilly's voice because it's Kate's dream.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:16, 7 June 2008 (PDT)
  • But, before that it was clearly DeRaven's voice saying, "Don't bring him back, Kate." Then she gets more forceful and it sounds like Kate. In my mind, this is Kate telling herself not to take Aaron back, and not a vision (similar to Charlie's to Hurley) of Claire or a manifestation of the island.--Dawgmatic 10:44, 9 June 2008 (PDT)
• I noticed that Claire doesn't seem to have her usual Australian accent in that scene. --LOSTinDC 06:48, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

Sun/Jack

Sun says she blames two people for Jin's death. Initially, I assumed her father and Widmore or Ben. Jack seems to assume it's him for not turning the helicopter around, which is likely. I don't think Sun blames Jack though. She seems to be setting up Widmore for something and ultimately he sent the freighter and the bomb. What do you guys think?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MethodicWays (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure. Several things point to her blaming Jack, but that doesn't really add up in a few ways. Jack wasn't the one particularly insistent on leaving without Jin, that was Frank. It was Kate who said she would get Jin and then did not - Jack did stop her, but only because Frank was leaving immediately, and Kate's not the type to be persuaded if she doesn't want to be.

After Jin appeared on the deck, it was Frank who refused to go back for him; Jack didn't say anything at that point. After the explosion, Frank, Jack, and Sayid all said they should go back to the Island without searching.

Even if she faults his actions above those of Frank for some reason, it seems utterly improbably that Sun would blame Jack over Widmore, who set the whole chain in motion with the intent to kill Jin and everyone else.--Hylas 16:38, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

Sun was pretty cold toward Jack in the C-130 ("We are in shock, Jack.") and Jack was looking at her pretty hard while she was speaking during the the press conference. I wonder if something else happened between them that we haven't seen yet.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:48, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

Fuel leak UQ?

"When the helicopter takes off, there is a clear shot of its underside. There is no fuel leakage from the gunshot hole. Once they are above the water, it starts to leak" -- do we know that this is a blooper, rather than the island trying to prevent the survivors from leaving, by causing a fuel leak when they get above the ocean? --Chesebrgr 04:25, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

When Sayid and Ben met off the island

Now that we know what happened, I wonder still. Why was the 1st thing that Sayid asked Ben "How did you get off the Island?". Ben then explained that Desmond left a yacht or something then he took it to Figi. Wouldnt he have rather asked "Where is the Island?" or "What has happened to everyone on the Island?" Also, shouldnt Ben know where the Island is since we know that he didnt separate from the Island when it moved. Or did he separate from the Island, since in that scene where he woke up in the desert wearing the same clothes (I think) as he was when he turned the wheel. Do u think he lied to Sayid? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arion (talk • contribs) 2008-06-09T16:26:55.

Ben had to be the one to move the island?

I realize that we did not see Christian tell Locke that they have to move the island but I'm now wondering why Ben was the one that had to move the island. Did Christian tell Locke specifically that Ben was the one that had to move it? Otherwise, why wouldn't Ben give Locke the instructions to do it so he could stay on the island himself? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abcortesi (talk • contribs) 2008-06-09T16:42:09.

Ben had to be the one because he knew he had lost Jacob's trust.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:26, 9 June 2008 (PDT)

Exactly, Ben knew his time was over and that it was Locke's turn to lead the others and look after the island.--Chesebrgr 06:04, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

I'm thinking that Ben chose to be the one to move the Island. He'd messed up his leadership position with a series of bad command decisions and had no way of regaining it by staying on the Island. Instead, he chose to move the Island (moving himself off is as a result), and left Locke in charge - knowing that Locke isn't a leader and would ultimately mess up. Wait a few years, eliminating some of your real-world enemies in the meantime, and then return to take back the position, which, appointed or not, you feel is rightly yours. --DanielDenial 08:27, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

Interesting. Makes one wonder if Widmore did something like that: Gave it up, then decided it was still his.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 11:15, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

Lol that reminds me of the According to Jim Episodes about the Grill: Just because a man gives something away doesn't mean he renounces all claim to it. :) But seriously, I think that Christian told Locke that the Island must be moved and that Ben knew how to do it, not who had to move it. Ben chose to move it so he could get closer to Widmore for revenge. If he stays on the Island, the only way to get to Widmore would be to bring him there. --Thenumbersdude 13:44, 10 June 2008 (PDT)

Ben moved the island the same day the oceanic 6 left the island. According to the oceanic 6, it was the begining of january, but Ben falls in Tunisia (probably after moving the island) in October,24th. Is that because of the time travel from the island? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cacahandler (talk • contribs) 2008-06-16T16:33:08.

Similarity to Exodus Part 2

Did anyone notice that when Penny's boat is seen in the distance, one of the things in the back of your mind is Exodus Part 2 and Walt's kidnapping? Just a thought. --   Connor401    talk    contribs    email   19:37, 13 June 2008 (PDT)

Yeah, I'm thinking 'Remember what happened last time y'all were on a raft and saw a boat coming towards you. Things worked out great THEN, didn't they?' --Thenumbersdude 20:58, 13 June 2008 (PDT)

Two-part version

Does anybody have any info on the two-part version that was broadcast in New Zealand? Were any scenes cut or rearranged in the same way that the season 2 and 3 finales were? It's a possibility that the two-part version may end up on the DVD similar to the season 3 release. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DuncRob (talk • contribs) 2008-06-14T07:44:57.

Cleanup

• Disagree A lot happened in "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2". I like the way they're divided up. It's a long article and the sections as they exist help finding things in the TOC.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:11, 11 August 2008 (PDT)
• Also disagree. The reason for condensing events into "On the freighter", "At the beach", "At the Barracks", etc... is when the events don't intertwine. It's easy to pull the separate storylines apart into a summary for each. The problem with doing that for this episode is that the events intertwine. So, you'd end up with something like. "On the Kahana: Jin and Sun arrive on the freighter. [...] The freighter explodes. [...] On the beach: Jin and Sun leave for the freighter. [...] Juliet watches the Kahana explode." So the events will be described out of chronological order, which is a problem for people reading the article straight through.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:15, 11 August 2008 (PDT)
• Modification Still disagree with touching the sections, but ABC has divided the episode into parts 1, 2, and 3. We should do the same.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:40, 27 August 2008 (PDT)
  • I thought we had the "split up the articles" discussion long ago and it was settled. Regardless of what is done online, or on the DVDs, the parts originally aired as one episode. Robert K S (talk) 12:03, 28 August 2008 (PDT)

Hurley - I'm sorry I went with Locke

Did we ever find out why Hurley was sorry he went with Locke instead of Jack? We've seen everything that happened on the island after that point, and it would seem Locke was right about the Freighter people, so why did Hurley say this to Jack? --Jackdavinci 08:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think it's Hurley's way of saying, "When I went with Locke, used me and then threw me away."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 15:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Safety first!

As the coffin lid is opened, it briefly reveals a sign on the wall of the funeral home that reveals something to the effect of: Safety first! Do not attempt to lift anything that you can not handle. Could this be an inference that Locke was not prepared to be the leader of The Island, and this is why he is now dead???--TronBlaster 06:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Mysterious dark face

Remember when the frogmen were getting killed by the Others by the copter? There are like two scenes where there is just this dark face, its so dark it almost looks like Darth Maul, peering back and forth in the tall weeds. It's kind of eerie, who is this?--TronBlaster 06:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Screencap or timecode?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Check 10:17 and 10:30 on the ABC full ep player.TronBlaster 18:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Split into separate pages?

On the DVD this is Part 2 and Part 3; the disc says episodes 12-14. I know it was called 2 & 3 in the press release but don't official releases trump that? --Pyramidhead 06:41, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

On the DVDs, "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" is also split into two parts. If we split this episode for that reason, then we'd also have to split that one which is probably not what anyone wants.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why that would be a problem. Again, we should refer to the DVDs for the ultimate episode naming and numbering scheme, not the press releases which are riddled with inconsistencies as it is. --Pyramidhead 07:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts are that we should go with how they were originally released as the definitive source, rather than the DVDs. Both hours of "Exodus, Part 2", "Live Together, Die Alone, Part 1", "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" and "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" originally aired on the same night, so they should be considered one episode, regardless of whether they're broken up on the DVD or not.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is currently happening in about 5 or 6 pages. Please continue it here so that we can get everyone in a single spot.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:03, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

1. What is the significance of the hieroglyphics in the frozen wheel chamber? Answered in the podcast: they mostly have to do with resurrection.
2. Who is the technician seen at the control console in the Orchid Orientation video? No indication that this is relevant.
3. Why does Kate tell Aaron, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" after her dream? Not a major mystery.
4. How did Ben know Jack was flying back and forth hoping to crash? Not a major mystery.
5. Why does Ben imply that the Island itself controls who can and cannot return? We know that the Island is a mysterious place, is this really such a big question? I'll leave it on there for now until further discussion, though.
6. Do Frank, Desmond and/or Walt need to return as well? Rephrasing to be less specific.
7. What was written about "Bentham" in his obituary? Not a major mystery, but I'll leave this one too pending further discussion.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimbo the tubby (talk • contribs) 2009-02-16T22:12:58.

I'm with you on #1 and #2, but #3 seems like a pretty major mystery to me (Kate is otherwise unremorseful and unrepentant about both leaving the Island and about raising Aaron as her own, so what could she possibly feel guilt about to trigger this episode?). With #5 you seem to be arguing that a mystery isn't a mystery because it's mysterious, so I don't follow. #7, it's tough to tell whether this will end up being significant or not. (BTW, I thought we settled that we wouldn't call this an "obituary".) Anyway, it doesn't much matter what was written about Bentham, the real question is how did Locke die? Who cares what some reporter discovered when what is important is the truth? Robert K S (talk) 05:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

blooper?

• how does Martin Keamy know that everyone is on the boat - Sayid snuck off on the zodiac without him knowing
• how does Martin Keamy know who shot him when he refers to ben's boyfriend? When he was shot his back was to Richard - or, is that just a tounge in check assumption

--Adklerk 06:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Keamy only says his dead man's trigger would "kill a lot of innocent people". He doesn't need to know about the Oceanic survivors being on the freighter to know that the freighter's innocent crewmembers will be killed. The answer to the second question is similarly easy: Keamy was present for and overheard all the discussion between Ben and Richard following the shooting (the exchange of thanks, etc.).  Robert K S   tell me  22:46, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode count discrepancy

I think we have a real problem with our episode count because of edits made to the lead of this article. This episode should be counted as one episode as originally aired in the U.S., and not as two, regardless of however it may be aired in syndicated reruns or treated on DVD releases. The lead was edited to say the episode constitutes "the thirteenth and fourteenth episodes of Season 4 of Lost and the second and third parts of its 3-part, 3 hour season finale. They are the 85th and 86th episodes of the series as a whole". But the episode is (IMO properly) treated as one episode in the nav templates, creating a discrepancy. This discrepancy needs to be discussed and resolved. We can't have it both ways. This applies to all other 2-hour episodes as well.  Robert K S   tell me  22:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The user who changed them based that on a recent episode being promoted as the 100th episode. I don't see any reason why we can't just all three methods of episode counting - "This episode was the 96th hour of Lost, 92nd airing, and 93rd by production number." (numbess made up for example). That should clarify it. --Jackdavinci 09:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

IMO, the end of an episode is the splash (crash?) of the word lost in white on black. If that occurred -- and I don't think it did -- at the end of the first hour of the original broadcast, then there are two episodes, otherwise there is one episode, no matter how revisioned later on. Ultimately, this process is dependent on implementing some sort of protected, episode-counting template.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

While I mostly agree with you, keep in mind that when being rebroadcast as single-hour episodes the Lost splash will likely appear at the end of both parts. Furthermore, I don't think "Because You Left" and "The Lie" had the splash between them when they originally aired (remember they aired on the same night) and are obviously to be considered two episodes. Actually, thinking about it, I like Jackdavinchi's solution.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Point well taken. Consider:

"There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3:" Originally broadcast on May 29, 2008. The Oceanic Six finally escape the Island. In the future, the identity of the body in the coffin is revealed.

Move all the numbers to a modified info box (they're statistical, anyway). Putting the colon after the title lets us get around the "was/were broadcast" tangle.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

This change has also broken the "Episode images" link in the episode infoboxes because of a misunderstanding of how this infobox works. As far as I am concerned, this change is completely dysfunctional. We can count produced hours of Lost separately from episodes by any of the proposed means, but we ought to be having one article per episode, and make that our standard. (I agree that the dual airing of "Because You Left" and "The Lie" throws a wrench in the works of our prior definition of what comprises an episode, but simply defining an episode as 1 hour, and retroactively editing all previous articles to accommodate this new definition, does nothing to assist conformity.) We need to set about fixing this problem right away.  Robert K S   tell me  22:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

We've already had a discussion about this and reached a consensus: Talk:Live Together, Die Alone, Part 2. The majority opinion is that we rename all two-parters to add "Parts X and Y" and note that they are two separate episodes described by the same page. In this case, the navigation template is what needs to be corrected. --Pyramidhead 04:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I missed that party--and believe me, I was looking everywhere for it. Could that have been because it was on a talk page of a nonexistent episode? Is it right for us to just make up episode titles like "Live Together, Die Alone, Part 2"? Did this title ever appear on a press release? On a DVD? Isn't your declaration of "consensus" premature?  Robert K S   tell me  05:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

For the record, the discussion on Live Together, Die Alone, Part 2 was linked to from all of the season finale talk pages. It was getting out of hand having the discussion take place on four pages, so a link was posted in each discussion pointing to a single ground where everyone could be in the same place.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• My apologies for making changes based on discussion on Lostpedia ideas, as I didn't even see this discussion. Before I made a change the other day, there were two infoboxes, and the article looked really trashed at the top because they were next to each other. I recombined them and make them 13 and 14 instead. As it's been pointed out, the 100th episode (not production hour) has been established; therefore, our counting method is incorrect. This represents the 85 & 86th episodes, or the 13th and 14th of the season. Notice even the title separates them as parts 2 & 3. ETA: which I just noticed, BTW, is not what the press release said (only part 2), so I'm confused as to how Darlton is considering the numbering. They definitely celebrated the 100th episode (see Jorge's blog ref on my user page), not the production hour. *sighs* ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 18:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• On the Season 2 DVD Episode Guide "Live Together, Die Alone, Part 1" is listed as TWO separate episodes ("Live Together, Die Alone, Part 1", and "Live Together, Die Alone, Part 2") - but is counted as one episode on the actual DVD. "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" is counted as TWO separate episodes ("Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" and "Through the Looking Glass, Part 2") on the Season 3 DVD and the ABC website episode player. Likewise, "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1" and "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" are listed as THREE separate episodes on the ABC website (Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3). Given the new information from the press releases, 5x14 will be the 100th episode of Lost. It doesn't matter how the episode originally aired on TV - what matters is how ABC is currently counting the episodes. We should split all of the finale pages (LTDA, TTLG, and TNPLH) into there individual parts so that we have 100 individual episode pages. Initially, I thought we should rename the pages to Live Together, Die Alone, Parts 1 & 2, Through the Looking Glass, Parts 1 & 2, etc. - but I think that we should split the pages since we know that ABC, the DVDs, and the online episode player, consider these as separate episodes. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 18:30, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• I don't put as much weight on announcements of a "100th episode". Notwithstanding the fact that Lost syndication deals were sold to specialty cable channels Sci Fi and G4 as early as October 2007, 100 is, in the industry, the golden number to be reached, signifying qualification for broad-based syndication, and the production company is sure to tout it with publicity because it represents a solid number of produced hours of the show that can be individually packaged for syndication, not a number of episodes as originally produced for air. Using the "100th episode" as the baseline by which all other episodes are re-ordered creates episode names only works because of the fluke that the one mid-season 2-hour episode we were given had two episode names and two episode numbers: in the hypothetical case that there were to be a two-hour episode given a single episode number in the middle of the season, the proposed renumbering would fail. We've always gone by episode names and numbers as given the shows on their first broadcast, and I'm not seeing the pressing need to switch to a system that favors syndication repackages.  Robert K S   tell me  18:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, but in this case, we have seen the episodes named (in there respective, separate parts) on the official ABC website and the DVDs. If "Through the Looking Glass, Part 2" is listed as "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1" and "Through the Looking Glass, Part 2" on the DVDs and the ABC website, then why shouldn't we rename the episode and count it as two? Same goes with "Live Together, Die Alone, Part 1" and "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" which have been counted as separate episodes. The numbering of these episodes (whether they are one episode, or two different episodes) has been ambiguous and disputed since they aired - but now that we have the "100th episode" airing, we can confirm that these are actually distinguished as separate episodes by ABC. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 18:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• Okay, so the website and the DVDs fall into the same category as the syndication numbers. But clearly this numbering wasn't what was originally planned; it sort of evolved as the show got nearer to prospects of single-hour redistribution. (To wit, there was no "Exodus, Part 3".) At least, we've identified the essential schism in this debate. Should the encyclopedia follow original-airing episode numbering, or a renumbered system based on produced hours of the show, one that may rejigger episode names and create episodes that never originally existed as separate episodes? This is a big change for the encyclopedia and it isn't one that should be made without full editor body participation. So far, we've just seen a few scattered talk discussions about this. I think this sort of change deserves a top-page banner and a policy page vote. It represents a major change in how we base new episode numbering off the original airdates and press releases.  Robert K S   tell me  18:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• I agree. It is a major change. Now that we have new knowledge of episode numbering based on the press release, I think a split of finale episodes (except for Exodus, since it has never been noted as "Exodus, Part 3" by ABC like you said) would be appropriate. Obviously though, there are two sides to this, and I agree that a top-page banner and vote would be necessary. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 18:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• Sounds good. Since we seem to be the two SysOps that have been involved in this, let's you and I both summarize the pros of our positions (and the cons of each others) into a few bullet points, and then create a policy vote page, putting the summarized arguments at the top. We can leave the voting open for a couple weeks so that everybody gets a chance to look at it.  Robert K S   tell me  19:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• Although it will involve work to make it happen, I think that it's worth making the change in the end because despite whatever might have originally been intended, the evolution to how it is and how it will be should determine how we move forward. As the airdates have passed, and now all that remains for the present and future are the ABC reairings, VOD, and DVD views, moving to match the evolved numbering makes sense. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 06:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Time Dilation

If the passage of time is different on the Island than it is on the ship, then how did Juliet and Sawyer see the destruction of the ship in real time? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Axemantitan (talk • contribs) 2009-05-04T18:26:08.

The difference in time is only 31 minutes and 18 seconds... so there's nothing that says they wouldn't be able to see the destruction of the freighter... they just see it a bit later than it happend... /   Dreamingtree72    talk    contribs   07:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the time difference appears to waver (remember the radio message to the living doctor after his body had already washed ashore?)... It probably approaches nil as the freighter got to within 5 miles of shore...  Robert K S   tell me  07:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Episode List

Is there a reason why this episode doesn't show up in the episode list at the top of the page?--Doughnutguy 07:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Mistake - Through the looking glass

A mistake is listed for "There's No Place Like Home":

• The final flashforward scene from "Through the Looking Glass" is slightly reedited in the "previously on Lost" segment at the beginning of the episode, adding a new shot of Kate's car driving off which then leads into the first scene of this episode. However, "Through the Looking Glass" ended with Jack turning around and walking towards his car, while in this episode, he is still watching Kate's car drive off when Kate stops and changes to reverse gear.

HOWEVER, this could be debunked. What if... the final scene shown in "Through the looking glass", when Jack walks to his car is AFTER Kate has come and insulted him. This would match, since in "There's no place..." Kate after insulting Jack, leaves, and Jack walks slowly to his car... as seen in the end of "Through the looking glass". I think there's no continuity error, just that in "Through the looking glass" they omit to show us Kate coming and insulting Jack (for plot purposes). --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 03:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Clarification on this Episode being split into two on the DVD

My DVD (Region 1 NTSC retail in the US) does not have this episode split into two parts. So I wanted to discuss this, since the article (for the S4 DVD, and for this episode itself) states that it is split into two.

It has the entire 3 hour finale split into two parts (part 1 is the first hour, where we see them on the military plane in the beginning, which aired the week before this episode aired, part 2 is the other two hours, or in other words, this episode).

It's listed in the booklet that came with it as:

There's No Place Like Home (Part 1 of 2) There's No Place Like Home (Part 2 of 2)

And on the disc surface it says that it's Disc Four, Episodes 12-14 (which suggests that each hour counts as an 'episode' even though Part 2, or Pt 2&3, aired as a 2 hour episode).

But under 'Episodes' on the DVD it lists:

There's No Place Like Home (Part 1) There's No Place Like Home (Part 2)

And lastly, when you watch the episode (part 2), it's one contiguous episode, no credits rolling in the middle, and no LOST title screen. It's not been edited to watch as two separate episodes.

If anyone has anything to add, or if their DVD's are different than mine (but still US R1), then I guess my DVD is just odd. --Snake78 18:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• I'd have to check, but I believe my DVDs are the same.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  18:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Edits can't be undone???

I was correcting/cleaning up some of the episode info, and now half of the synopsis is gone? It won't let me undo the edits either. Wtf?? Help? (Kdc2 21:59, July 4, 2010 (UTC))

Well I just undid your last revert which seems to have put most of it back in. All of the Orchid station events. It doesn't appear to all be back though, looking at it.--Baker1000 22:29, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Soundtrack

In the synopsis, it says that, when "Frank, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid and Hurley board the helicopter and take off to the freighter", it plays Can't Kill Keamy, Credit Where Credit Is Due, and There's No Place Like Home. But Can't Kill Keamy is, itself, a blend of the latter two (as the own page says). I was going to correct it, but I decided to come by to know if anyone disagrees. So? MryCrisper (talk) 21:13, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's unnecessary. We include those notes for every soundtrack piece, and we also include them for many individual themes. There are several redundant double-notes and triple-notes like that one. We should probably stick to "Can't Kill Keamy" there.

I'd actually like some independent input on how useful all those notes are. I wonder sometimes if they're too much or break up the flow of the text, but I've added too many of them myself to judge them objectively. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 19:33, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

I don't speak English very well, so could you explain the "independent input" thing? MryCrisper (talk) 21:20, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

I just meant I want to hear what more people think about the way the notes look. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 23:45, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I love it. Lost's soundtrack is wonderful, not only because it's very good to listen, but also because it has all these themes to every bird that appears on the show. And specifying them only makes Lostpedia better and unique.