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Another Possible Loophole?

Another possible loophole to consider: The "UnLocke" entity was actually the one who killed Jacob, NOT Ben... because UnLocke kicked Jacob into the fire at the last second and it was the fire that killed him in the end - after Ben had stabbed him Jacob was still alive (albeit just a little) - they even showed a quick flash of that in tonight's maybe UnLocke actually did end up "breaking the rules" technically. Goofypants20 06:46, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting...This could explain the small boy that the "UnLock" sees. At first the young boy has blood/burns on his arms and is not seen by Richard. Then later the small boy is seen by "UnLock" and Sawyer. The first occurance Jacob is bing resurrected, only able to be seen by "UnLock". Then later by "Unlock" and Sawyer, as Jacob is now corporal form. The clothes the boy is wearing appear to be the same type of clothes that Jacob died in. I think the rules were broken. A loophole. Diverdan1 17:48, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The clothes Jacob died in were completely different. He died in his normal white shirt. This boy wore brown clothes and a vest. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

I thought that too, Jacob was alive in the fire (I mean he said "They're coming") so because he wasn't dead yet MIB actually killed him and broke the "rules". --Gorbeh 19:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The boy had on the same colored shirt and pants as when Jacob was cast into the fire. The boy did have a brown vest on that Jacob did not when he died, that is the only difference in clothing. You have to admit Jacob and the boy both have blonde hair, and they have similar facial features/expressions. Diverdan1 22:56, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

A thought I had about the boy the instant I saw him was Vincent, being that Vincent is a Golden Retriever and the boy is Blonde. Also there is something special about Vincent.(Poor nose 04:35, February 18, 2010 (UTC))


So would we consider this a centric for just Locke or both Locke and the man in black? InflatableBombshelter 03:07, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • Tough decision. The flash sideways timeline was all Locke, yet everything happening on the island was MIB. I would say both of them at the moment, but would like to see other opinions. Phobia27 03:14, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • When MiB saw the boy the second time, he twice shouted Locke's favorite quote: "Don't tell me what I can't do!" Elsewhere in the episode, Ilena said that MiB is stuck using Locke's face now (for unspecified reasons). Combine that with the flash-sideways focus on the real Locke, and I think we're meant to understand that MiB is Locke now on some level. Mblase75 03:31, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Uh, it's kind of like Jughead in that the two main stories focused on different characters. If this episode is Locke/Man in Black centric, wouldn't Jughead also be Desmond/Daniel centric? I don't know. Just a thought. I'm supporting this being Locke/MiB centric, though. --Bish-Fiscuit 04:04, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Why are we even asking ourselves this? I thought the notion of centricity only applied to flashless episodes. For example Tabula Rasa lists Flashback:Kate, not Centric character:Kate. As such, this should simply, in my opinion, be left as Flashsideway:Locke. --LeoChris 04:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh, God, no. Just look at The Incident. We call it a Jacob centric, even though it features flashbacks from a whole bunch of people. --Bish-Fiscuit 04:19, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Touché. --LeoChris 04:28, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
which was, and still is completely 'tarded. --Pyramidhead 04:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Hi, Pyramidhead! I don't really understand how it wasn't Jacob centric. The flashbacks almost all centered upon him and so did one of the main storylines, even if he wasn't present throughout all of it. Shouldn't that be enough for it to constitute a Jacob centric? --Bish-Fiscuit 04:50, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Wow, Jacob-centric, that's f'ing stupid. All this time I thought centricity was related to who the "flash" centered around, not what was happening on the island. Either way, this episode is blatantly Locke centric, Flocke or not. --Beema|talk|contributions 05:06, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • It's a silly question. Flocke is the successor to Locke. It's like asking "should we consider the centricity to be Locke or sideways-flash Locke"? For the purpose of centricity, we should consider "Flocke" to be sort of a different character than MIB/Smokey, just a latter history of John. IOW We should link it to "Locke/Flocke", the former linked to Locke proper and the latter linked only to the Flocke subsection of MIB and not to the entire article. Or just Locke would be fine, assuming there's enough Flocke already at the end of the Locke article.--Jackdavinci 08:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Currently, it's "Centric: Locke" "Flash-sideways:Locke]] That's what I'm going with. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 11:43, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
It is Locke only centric not only was Locke the only focus of the FS timline his corpse was also a main focus of the on-island storyline. How is this even a question? -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  16:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
That's like saying that The Little Prince is Aaron centric because he appears in the flashback and is a major part of both the on-island and off-island storylines. --Bish-Fiscuit 22:27, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious?? have you ever seen the little prince Aaron barely appears, Lock is the focus of every FS and his body is a major focus of 2007 story. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  01:43, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

What the hell is the point of having it being labeled both "Flashsideways: Locke" and "Centric: Locke"? Why not just have one or the other? Isn't that completely pointless? --Bish-Fiscuit 22:27, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

I would say flashsideways: Locke, centric: MIB. Because the flashsideways focus on Locke, but he barely appears on Island and the focus is clearly on the "new" Locke. Or alternatively, centric: Locke
MIB. I don't like how we're ignoring MIB in this, when he was the focal character of the Island storyline. --Golden Monkey 22:30, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
It's a Locke centric-episode, but the Man in Black and Locke are the centric characters.--Station7 22:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Infobox Picture

How do we choose which pictures to associate with the episode in the infobox? Personally, I think the current one is terrible. Surely there has to be a screencap that better represents this episode. --Cul-de-zack 04:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • I added that until myself or someone else could find another one. I replaced it with something much better. --Irockman 06:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Substitute2


    can I suggest this one? but I do not have it in a better quality. I believe it better repressents the title, and the mood. --V-vk 08:27, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • If I recall correctly, the standard protocol is a face or upper body closeup of the centric character.--Jackdavinci 08:36, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

A few things

1) In the cave did anyone else notice the numbers?

4-LOCKE,CheerBabe40970 05:29, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


15-FORD CheerBabe40970 05:29, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


16-JARRAH, CheerBabe40970 05:29, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


23-SHEPHARD, CheerBabe40970 05:29, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


42-KWON, CheerBabe40970 05:29, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

4- Locke
8- Reyes
15- Ford
16- Jarrah
23- Shepard
42- Kwon

quite interesting... 2) In the list of "Candidates", Kate, Claire, One Kwon (still unknown which), Frank and Miles were left out. So, what is their purpose still on the island? 3) The list of candidates are all male, so does this mean the Kwon would be Jin? (and again Miles?) ANY IDEAS?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2manyQuestions (talkcontribs) 2010-02-16T22:15:36.

  • The Kwon is referring to Jin. All the candidates time traveled, Sun did not.--Slimeham 03:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think Kwonmay refer to their kid I beet meat 07:45, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we could take the above fact as evidence that Sun is the candidate?Mblase75 03:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • According to Lost Untangled on the name Kwon is referring to Jin. Iheartmavs41 04:47, February 17, 2010 (UTC)iheartmavs41§Iheartmavs41 04:47, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Based on the look Dogen gave Jin when Jin recited his name in "LA X," I'm saying he wasn't on that list, and thus Sun is the candidate. --Cul-de-zack 03:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • If this time travel idea is related (which by the way is a great idea...I didn't even think of it.) Where is Kate? Or could this be strictly male? Also, maybe there is something we dont know that may have made Dogen give that look to Jin, like maybe a discussion between him and Jacob we are blind to as of now. Assuming Dogen HAS spoken to Jacob. --2manyQuestions 21:37, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Sawyer has the magic ability to see "that kid" (e.g. better than Richard). That's a clue (or red herring) that he might be the candidate.--Tim Thomason 04:25, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • In response to your last point, I don't actually think the two kids were the same. They look a little different and the first one has unexplained blood/burns on his arms? My first guess is that the first kid may have been some sort of premonition - just throwing that out there! Matthew--T 08:38, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • There are two options either is JIN or JI YEON ,beacuse SUN is Paik KWON is her married name--A31094 15:01, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but are we certain the candidacy is for Jacob's role? And not Ben's? John was the first up on the cave list, and he was appointed to lead the others, now he's dead, and crossed off the list. It seems likely it's a replacement for Jacob, but I want to rule out it's not for Ben.--Whoiscgm 19:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • In What Kate Does Justin says to Aldo "he's one of them." before Aldo tries to kill him. Aldo then replies "he may be one of them." ""THEM""? A candidate maybe?--2manyQuestions 21:37, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • The response "he MAY be one of them" all stems from the same thing we're wondering - Justin and Aldo only know that the list (from guitarcase/ankh) says KWON and they also don't know if its Sun or Jin. -Cpt cannibal 15:53, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • Jack is number 23 and in the same timeline he was sitting in seat 23. i wonder if its the same for the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omggivemaafningusername (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T19:48:03.
    • No its not. I watched the airplane scenes several times and took notes. (42)Sun/Jin is behind (23)Jack, but the airplane doesn't have 42 rows. (8)Hurley and (16)Sawyer are both in the same row, many rows behind (23)Jack. Also, (4)Locke is seated several rows behind (23)Jack. Finally, (16)Sayid is seemingly seated somewhere behind (23)Jack as well. On another note, I don't actually believe Jack's row is 23. The best view of Jack/Rose/Bernard seat number is when Jack returns to his seat and asks Rose about Desmond being gone. Its clearly row 24 in this scene. -Cpt cannibal 20:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
      • in that universe the numbers are different. before he was in row 23.Omggivemaafningusername 01:20, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • Random commentary department: why is Jacob scrawling the names of his candidates on the walls of the cave? Something to wile away the long late afternoon hours on the Island? Hilarious. Spiral77 21:52, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Unidentified Candidates

What do you think of the names already crossed off the list? Have any of those numbers related to characters?--Lucky Day 17:39, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

What's infected/claimed Sayid?

Since MiB crossed out Locke's name in the cave, but not Jarrah, does that mean Sayid never died? Or does it mean that the 'infection' isn't linked to MiB? I assume we'll find out more about that next week....Mblase75 03:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • Perhaps MIB isn't aware of Sayid's 'death' and had presumed he was still alive. Additionally, I believe having the infection means you serve for MIB now, but you can't be completely controlled by them (e.g. if Christian is/was the MIB, then he had an influence on Claire, and got her infected, but she still has free will, whilst Locke is dead and hence is being completely controlled by MIB). Phobia27 03:49, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • Keep in mind that Locke isn't "controlled" by MiB - his body has been buried this very episode (something that the "centric" debate on top of the page seems to miss, also). Jarrah's name not being crossed out could be a mishap (we're overanalyzing), but given the circumstances of the final season that isn't likely.MarioColbert 06:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it's pretty evident that the Smoke Monster does not take over someone's body and control them, but can only impersonate someone. Smokey also seems to be able to only impersonate people who are dead and who's bodies are physically on the island (or the island's immediate vicinity), i.e. Jack's Dad, Eko's brother, Ben's daughter, etc. That's why he needed John Locke's body on the island in order to impersonate Locke and manipulate Ben into killing Jacob and to do what he's now doing. Otherwise, he could have just taken over anyone's body at any time or impersonated anyone at any time, but that didn't happen. He also seems to be able to travel off the island in impersonator form, as I'm of the opinion that Jack's Dad visiting him in Los Angeles as well as Charlie and Anna Lucia visiting Hurley in L.A. were all actually Smoke Monster appearances. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vandeewine (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T03:44:14.
    • Does this mean Eloise knows about the Smoke Monster as far as what it is able to do, wasn't she the one who told Jack he had to take the body back to the island? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brandnuva (talkcontribs) 2010-02-18T09:26:35.
    • Jacob said Hurley seeing dead people was a gift. I definitely don't think that was the smoke monster in those instances. Also if MIB can't change shape then how could have Hurley seen Jacob on the island? Hurley is clearly seeing actual dead people instead of impersonations. --Gorbeh 19:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Did the numbers sink with the island?

Out of habit, I've been searching episodes for signs of the Numbers showing up. Interestingly, I can't see them anywhere in the flash-sideways timeline -- license plates, taxi numbers, hospital rooms, nada. It's like they disappeared when the island sank, along with Hurley's bad luck.Mblase75 03:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • Probably. This new reality negates so much that happened before, it probably means the numbers are no longer needed. I wonder what numbers Hurley used to win the lotto?--Whoiscgm 05:24, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • In this episode locke wakes up at 6:15 Spoonybard1983 07:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • The numbers have a real world application as the core values to the Valenzetti Equation and so by changing those values the equation has been changed, thus the world is saved when the island is destroyed. If the island is as old as the statue it is not unreasonable to think that this may be Version 3 or 4 or even 500 of the core values they just never had a name until they were associated with the equation. Cooldude 832 18:30, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Why isn't Kate one of the numbers?

Kate has been on every list that Jacob has made, yet she isn't one of the numbers. What does this mean?

  • Unfortunately, in a room full of numbers and names, not catching a name does not equate to the name being absent. Kate had a "centric" episode last week - and unless the writers are planning on killing her off (not likely at the moment) - she'll likely get her number soon. MarioColbert 06:34, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • She's a woman. The candidates all have to be women.
  • It seemed like Flocke (or was it just the camera) specifically pointed out each of the remaining alive candidates. Did Jacob actually touch Kate or just visit her? --Jackdavinci 08:39, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • when Jacob visited Kate when she was young he touched her on the nose in the store. Mikejac 14:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • This question is already covered by the more general "Who exactly are the candidates?" question. Since generalized questions are better, I'm removing it.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  10:15, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Kate may have been a candidate but the MIB was very specific in stating that only the ones mentioned were not crossed out. So James,Jack,Kwon,Sayid,Hugo and maybee Locke were the only candidates remaining. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  16:18, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Perhaps Jacob just no longer saw her as a candidate? When she was young Jacob wrote her name down on the wall, but as she grew older she killed her stepfather in cold blood, and generally got up to no good, so Jacob crossed her off. Neither Sawyer or MIB noticed her name because it was crossed off, and it was out of view for us to see. Phobia27 20:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Sayid has killed more people and generally been up to no good but still remains. --Messeis 14:45, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • Sayid asked for forgiveness for the pre-crash murders, and the post crash murders, he was taking on Widmore's men who are enemies of the island. Kate just 'got away with murder' with no remorse--Blender83 16:43, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm not Jacob or the force behind the island, I don't know if I'd forgive Sayid for killing a bunch of people just because Ben Linus told him to, and not to Kate for killing her abusive stepfather. Who knows how much morality might affect the candidate process (a process we only know what MiB has said about it).--HowardTCo 05:01, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
  • Anybody consider being one of the numbers may be a bad thing? Hurley has always said they were cursed, they are part of the Valenzetti which isn't great. Perhaps the ones who are listed with the numbers are destined to be crossed out (like Locke), and maybe Kate might be the best candidate. Also if murdering someone eliminates you then I don't think any of our Losties are Candidates.--HowardTCo 06:45, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
  • If MIB/False-Locke is telling the truth, the Candidate that chooses to take the role of Jacob must stay in the Island locked in a adversarial role with Smokey- not a fun prospect; so the Candidates were selected in their ability/willingness to accept this fate. Kate has changed her mind to often to be a finalist -IMHOSobek1 03:36, February 21, 2010 (UTC)Sobek1

Is the parallel timeline the outcome of one of the three choices UnLocke was talking about?

Which one might it be then? I beet meat 07:52, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Locke not actually dead?

Crazy theory here: what if Locke isnt actually dead and it is a medusa spider? If you notice as Ilanna removes the tarp from over Locke, a spider comes running out. Anyone in agreeance or am I being completely stupid? --Yldrt 07:52, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Locke was strangled to death by Ben off the Island. Last time I checked, Ben didn't look like a medusa spider! Come on! :) — Iimitk  T  C  16:52, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • I noticed this as well, and also believe it was a medusa spider. Its placement was too conspicuous to be random, although possibly a red herring. I don't know what it could mean, since Locke was strangled by Ben several weeks prior, but I do believe it is of importance.Mslade 15:00, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Jesus stop over analizing, Jack blinks and everyone is oH shit he is Jacob, it was a fucking crab get over it FLocke 03:46, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure that was a crab or some other crustacean. Silentweapon 08:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • The spiders were much much smaller. Yes, it was a crab on his face. humpton 15:11, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • It may have been a medusa spider, we know they exist on the island but he was already dead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danny Pickett (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T12:55:30.
  • Definitely a crab. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
    • Although I doubt it was a Medusa Spider, if it were I would finally be able to forgive the powers that be for that hour-of-my-life wasting Expose.Clamshell 14:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • Man in a box, in a plane without compression, no food no water almost a week no,pretty sure that equals dead.Cooldude 832 18:32, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • So, upon review of my theory, it seems I was a bit hasty to jump to that conclusion of Locke not being dead, when there are quite a few counter arguments that can refute my theory. In defense of myself, would it be okay to say that its the island at work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yldrt (talkcontribs) 2010-02-20T06:12:17.

Jack vs. Locke

I have heard the producers say this many times that the final season will come down to Jack vs. Locke, which used to be Science vs. Faith and now Locke is dead but the MIB is "stuck" looking like Locke. I think Jack is going to be the new Jacob, he was such a man of faith and all destiny crazy, now he's kinda lost, pun not intended, and needs to know where to go now. My vote: Jack is going to be the new Jacob.--Phryrosebdeco23 08:04, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • If so, Jack has a long way to go Silentweapon 08:14, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • Perhaps not, read this quote from Matthew Fox about Jack in season 6 (possibly a minor spoiler): shrodes 09:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
      • That quote merely demonstrates Jack's new devotion to the "Faith"(/Fate) side of the coin. I don't think it's in anyway foreshadowing a certain event, as it seems you have interpreted it to mean. In my opinion, this quote fully supports the theory here, rather than negating it. --Usagi629 16:00, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Jack and Locke's argument at the end of There's No Place Like Home mirrors the argument between the MiB and Jacob. --Candidate 0 05:34, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


Did anyone else notice the poster of Desmond when Locke was at the recruitment office? Might be worth mentioning that somewhere in the article? --Matthew--T 08:32, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • I'm not so sure that's him. I don't have a HD cap to confirm, but I can see how you would think it. Desmond? -- shrodes 09:17, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • I thought it looked like Kate and Sawyer when I first saw it! Phobia27 15:27, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • and how about the picture in Locke's box when he meets Hugo after getting canned from the box company? --Vjb77 21:33, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • Haven't looked at that scene again, but Locke had a picture of him and his dad up in his office, so it's likely that it's just the same picture. Phobia27 00:20, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • I was more interested in the fact that the words "Dream" and "Job" were featured very prominently on three posters in that office, especially in light of all of the recent discussion about The Book of Job on this episode's theory page.--Rhydem 01:14, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • Let's just hope the important word here is "Job" and not "Dream". Wouldn't it suck if the ATL was... all a dream?--SoNickPick 14:49, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • Dream job
      Here's a shot of the posters.--Rhydem 01:39, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ben alive!

Ben is alive off island so one of three possibilities should be true 1) The island did *not* sink when Juliet set off the bomb or 2) Juliet did not set off the bomb, and the Island did not sink when the Losties got sent back to the future or 3) The island did sink at that time (whether or not the bomb got sent off) but Ben had already gotten off the island somehow despite being with the Others. --Jackdavinci 08:42, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

If 815 never crashed, then Ben wouldn't be with the Others. He was only there because Sayid shot him. If 815 never crashed, then he never would have been shot and he would have been evacuated by the others. --Golden Monkey 12:43, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
If the bomb blew a hole through the island that caused it to sink, then it probably didn't sink immediately. Come to think of it, if the island could sink in the first place, and it can easily be moved, then the island isn't connected to sea floor, right?--Gibbeynator 12:48, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I keep seeing this argument, but I still don't understand it. "If 815 never crashed, then Sayid never shot Ben, so Ben was evactuated with DHARMA before the bomb went off". Umm... if 815 never crashed, and Sayid didn't go back in time to kill Ben, then Jack & Friends never went back in time to set off the bomb. Either Jack & Sayid are both back in time to shoot Ben and set off the bomb, or neither is back in time, Ben doesn't get shot, and the bomb doesn't get triggered. You can't have it both ways. ;-) --Maelwys 14:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
The alternate timeline is a direct result of the bomb going off. It only exists because of Jughead's detonation. So they don't have to go back in time to create that loop, because it was already done in the original timeline. Thus, the causality of the second world lies in the first world. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
Then the original timeline would not have been able to exist to create the second one, unless the original timeline is also caused by the second, so the two are interdependent. In which case I would think it would make more sense that the island sank because the bomb did NOT go off.. not without help from the "second" timeline anyway. At any rate, the second timeline would not be created at the time that the bomb went off if it was a matter of time travel, it would have been created when people jumped back in time, but we were able to see throughout season 5 that the effects of time travel never changed anything, everything was as it always has been, even the existence of a second timeline. WeirdDNA 16:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
False. Once again, Ben had met with Alpert and was told he would probably be able to join the Others long before he even met Sayid. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
I've been thinking of the timeline split similar to how Doc Brown represents it in Back to the Future 2. At some point in the past (1977?), the timeline splits. Everything that happened before that split is the same in both timelines, but after it splits it goes on its own, though similar, path. If that's the case, and the timeline did split at the bomb explosion, then Ben had been on the island and shot by Sayid in both timelines.Danh916 18:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Exactly, remember when Sun was looking at the Dharma recruitment photo and saw Jin and the others? That happened in the nonbomb timeline so they were always part of the Dharma Initiative and Sayid always shot Ben. Jackdavinci has a good point that somehow Ben is able to get off the island (because he was with the Others when the bomb went off) or the island didn't sink immediately. --Gorbeh 19:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Unless he was already off the island.Omggivemaafningusername 00:43, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
He wasn't. He was recovering in a tent on the same day, he was having a little chat with Widmore. WeirdDNA 16:41, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Let's try to clear up what the timeline split actually is/was: the timelines diverged the instant any of the survivors went back in time, not when the bomb exploded. Call the timeline we've known so far (where 815 crashes) timeline A and sunken island one timeline B. In timeline A, Sawyer, Jack, Hurley, etc. were _never_ present in the Dharma camp. Sayid did not shoot Ben (he got recruited by Richard at another time), Jughead didn't detonate, none of that stuff happened. As soon as Sawyer, Juliet, et al. went back in time, timeline B was spawned (actually it spawned when they first interacted with anyone/anything). The only aspects to cross over were some things between Daniel and Eloise (both have Desmond's timeline-crossing abilities) and the picture Christian ('s ghost) showed Sun and Frank (likely a trick the MiB had up his sleeve). This is all why Ben didn't know Sayid when he was thought to be Henry Gale (the shooting happened in timeline B) and Danielle didn't know Jin (again, they met in B). As soon as a timeline is contaminated by visitors from the future, it becomes a new one. MannyF 19:40, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Richard mentions the healing spring at the Temple causes a loss of memory. No one would be expected to remember someone they met in the space of hours sixteen years ago. Danielle is also described by multiple sources as crazy. Spiral77 20:36, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
True on both counts, except that just being crazy doesn't mean Danielle would be that forgetful, and watching someone disappear would warrant some strong memories of that person, I would think. However, Richard Alpert is the one to completely disprove my idea, since, on the island in timeline A, he says he met the survivors in the past, and that he watched them die. So they did contaminate root timeline, before any branching, but in timeline A they died instead of setting off the bomb. Guess Jughead really was the "brancher". (...or maybe Daniel/Eloise?) MannyF 21:34, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

We never see Ben after his chat with Widmore (correct?), where Charles tells him he's gonna have to go back to the Dharma camp. Assuming that he made it back to camp in time, Ben was likely evacuated with the rest of the camp. Easy answer? MannyF 19:40, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Illana's Statement about Shapeshifting

When Locke was buried in this episode, Illana said that the Man in Black was now unable to take another person's form aside from Locke. Someone raised a question about this in the Unanswered Questions section of the article. I am merely adding the caveat that as the Man in Black appeared to Ben in the form of Alex when Ben was "judged" beneath the Temple, Illana may be mistaken. I am not claiming that this is a "continuity error" - I'm just pointing out a flaw in this statement. It could be explained by many non-continuity error reasons, including the possibility that Illana may not have all the correct info. Thanks! --Qwerty7412369 12:00, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • But Locke wasn't buried yet, and we don't know if Alex was ever buried.--Pittsburghmuggle 13:45, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • The smoke monster clearly left the room in a different direction before Alex appeared. WeirdDNA 16:38, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it has something to do with Jacob being dead. Now that he's dead the MIB can't change his shape anymore. Just a guess. Brotha305 16:36, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

My guess is that it has to do with Ilana's perception that MIB broke the rules by killing Jacob, and that staying in Locke form is a consequence of breaking the rules. --Snoods 21:45, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • she dosent know that the MIB killed jacob. i agree that it sounded like now that jacob is dead the smoke monster cant change forms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omggivemaafningusername (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T19:40:11.

She thinks MIB killed Jacob because Ben told her that John Locke killed Jacob. I think there are a lot of parameters to the rules, and defined consequences for if they are broken. Snoods 04:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

    • The original comment was referring to the fact that MIB appeared as Alex to Ben after Locke was already dead, so obviously Locke's death alone does not fix MIB into a specific appearance. She did say this after they buried Locke, which might mean that his appearance is fixed after that. But, if that's the case then why didn't she suggest burying Locke, instead of Sun? I think that the incident that fixes MIB's appearance in place, according to Illana, is probably the death of Jacob...
However, MIB can obviously still change into the smoke monster. Arguably, it might just be his human form that is fixed, but Illanas comment is really no consolation to the rest if he can still fly around the island and hurl people in trees.Clamshell 14:15, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

The point I was making was this - Illana states that the MIB cannot take another human form aside from Locke (though he obviously can still take his smoke-monster form). So according to Ilana, if the MIB wants to appear in human-form, he has to appear as Locke. This is seemingly contradicted by the fact that in the episode Dead is Dead, the smoke-monster/MIB appears to Ben in the form of Alex and Ben literally gets pushed around by MIB/Alex (thus proving the MIB/Alex form is a real, physical form), which as Clamshell correctly noted, happens after the MIB had assumed the form of Locke immediately after the Ajira Air crash. Simply put, Ilana is saying the MIB cannot do something we've actually seen him do. This is problematic.

The general response seems to be that the MIB's inability to change must be due somehow to the death of Jacob. While this may eventually prove to be the way out of this seeming contradiction, there is no evidence to prove, or even suggest, that Jacob's death is the cause of MIB's inability to change. Furthermore, I would counter such claims that Jacob's death is the causal factor with the following: (1) There is no evidence for Ilana's claims other than her word - and if I've learned anything about the Lost Universe in over the last few years, its that you can't automatically trust the word of anyone, especially the word of characters not on Oceanic 815 (think Naomi, the Others, or just about everyone else introduced after, say, season one, episode three). (2) Think about the circumstances of how the real-Locke's corpse got from the Ajira crash to the statue-ruins. Ilana said she brought Locke's corpse with her to "show the others what they were up against." This means that when she and her crew salvaged Locke's body from the Ajira wreckage, packed it up in the metal box, and started hauling it across the island - all of which occured well before they knew where the MIB was going, that he had reached Jacob, or that he had killed Jacob - they knew that they needed to physically carry Locke's heavy corpse with them to "show the others what they were up against." They knew the MIB would be stuck in Locke's form before they knew Jacob was dead, which would indicate that Jacob's death may not be the cause of the MIB inability to change forms, that something occured before they started hauling Locke's corpse away from the Ajira wreckage which caused the MIB's inability to change forms. (3) I don't think we should overlook the fact that at Locke's funeral, when Ilana states that she brought Locke's corpse to "show the others what they were up against," that it is Ben - not Sun or Frank or anyone else - who asks why the MIB cannot just take another form. Ben, the man who saw the MIB actually take another form, asks this question about the MIB's ability to take other forms. I think this is not insignificant, as Ben is known for grasping useful info and keeping it to himself until he can use it for his own advantages.

I don't have the answers for this problem - maybe Ilana is incorrect, maybe there are rules in operation we haven't been shown, or maybe something else. But given the info we have now, I don't see how this is a problem that can just be dismissed. Unless I'm missing something, and please tell me if I am! Thanks --Qwerty7412369 08:49, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

  • Speaking of Shapeshifting, still inside the statue Ilana asks what happened to her men and Ben says she probably wouldn't believe him, but that MiB "turned into a pillar of black smoke". The entire conversation sounds as though Ben is surprised that MiB could even be a/the smoke monster. Additionally, Ben's explanation is worded in such a way that leads us to assume Ilana is unaware of "the smoke monster" in general. Yet she is knowledgeable of MiB. Therefore, either there are two/multiple smoke monsters, or nobody was aware that MiB was the smoke monster all this time. -Cpt cannibal 09:39, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ben's assumption that Ilana won't believe the description of MiB becoming the Smoke is just that, Ben's assumption. Ilana is the only person who Jacob specifically asked for help. ("The Incident, Part 1") Ilana knows more than Ben thought she knew and that in itself troubles Ben.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 13:55, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

Is anyone else convinced that many past questions will never be answered? The way this last season is heading, I cannot believe so many unanswered questions will be answered. This is mostly because there are simply too many of them, and some are completely out of context now (it's just been too long). This frustrates me considerably, since I've been holding onto the ideal that we'd know almost everything :( For example, in Season 2 Lockdown, "who or what is making the supply drop?" is still an unanswered question, or how does the Magic Box instantly bring people to the island? What questions would you like to be answered? --Frosty yul 17:53, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Frosty yul, I find it odd that you link to the Magic Box article, where it's clearly stated that it's a metaphor, yet you don't seem to realize it's a metaphor. :) Marc604 22:42, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Um, the magic box is a metaphor for the Island's (or more likely, Jacob's) power to draw things to it. That's been known for quite some time. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
While I understood the island/Jacob "draws things" part, in each case it takes some time for things to arrive. The man from Tallahassee arrived instantly; that's a big difference.--Frosty yul 18:07, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I believe they are going to answer as much as they can, but a lot of the "smaller mysteries" (ie. not directly relevant to the main story arc) they may answer with broad sweeps. For example, at this point it's pretty clear that some people in Lost reality have superhuman abilities: Miles speaks to the dead (on and off Island), Hurley sees them (on and off Island), etc. From that perspective, Walt's not mysterious, he just has his own set of special abilities which may not be significant to the story. The mystery, then, is why anybody has "special powers" and why they end up on the Island? They can address that within a season. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mslade (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T15:54:45.
I personally hope that they leave a certain amount of questions left unanswered. there is certainly a large list of things i would like to see addressed (I very much want to see walt have a significant role for example) but its the mystery that makes lost interesting. if everything is answered and wrapped up with a neat little bow, it will kind of kill the fun of the show, and it will leave us with nothing to talk about when the show ends. --Retaeluos 03:12, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Walt's significance to the Others/powers was never really explained and I'm pretty sure that's a closed chapter. There's a lot of background stuff about the Others that's not been revealed, but for the show to explain the connections and motivations and backstories of people like Richard, Widmore, Eloise, etc. they'll have to dedicate most of the rest of the season to explaining a lot of this. Will Adam and Eve ever be explained? How about the reason behind all that time travel? I keep hoping to understand where Widmore comes in but the clues are few and far between. What did the failsafe actually do? Why was the blast door map made? Yes, I have my fair share of questions too, but unfortunately it seems that this MIB/Jacob/Temple stuff will take up this season and many of those other questions will fall by the wayside.--And complicated 19:43, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

I think that Adam and Eve will turn out to be Rose and Bernard, but that's the kind of thing that could be confirmed within ten seconds and allow more important questions to be answered. I don't see why absolutely everything has to be answered- the Blast Door Map for example. It was probably made by Radzinsky because he was one of the few DHARMA folk left after the purge, and he needed to keep a record of where everything was. Is an explanation really necessary?--Chocky 21:08, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not hung up on the Blast Door Map specifically; although there's an episode's worth of material somewhere explaining Radzinsky's role after the purge, his suicide (or murder?), why the map had to be hidden, etc. Of course that information is completely irrelevant now, which makes it feel like even more of a cop out. My point is since the 4th season the show has been losing a certain amount of cohesiveness, and so far we've got all kinds of time travel, something special about Desmond, a rivalry between Ben and Widmore and so on. We've got 10ish episodes left, and I'm thinking much of that time is going to be devoted to understanding who/what Jacob and MIB are, perhaps their relation to the Others, the survivors' importance to the island and the island's overall importance, and then of course we're going to have to connect the two timelines. I find it hard to believe that some of the big questions from the 4th and 5th seasons will be answered. And yes, it is important because it speaks to the plausibility of the show. Throwing all kinds of strange and inexplicable events into the story only works if they're expained eventually. For one, I drudged through all this time travel mess in the 5th season, and it hasn't been explained in the slightest. THe island is skipping through time; but WHY??? I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder why he hell some island teleports people and flies around through time and can be located by Eloise and hidden from WEidmore, all the while not understanding anything except that Widmore and Eloise were leaders of the Otheres. Of course we don't really know the story behind the Others, let alone what it means to be their leader. See where I'm going? New information keeps coming in yet it builds on already confusing and vague information and it's really unclear how it's all connected, or why the hell any of this is even happening. At this point, for anythibng to be satisfying, we're going to have to quickly learn what the island is, exactly why it's important, why the survivors are important, who the hell are Eloise and Widmore, what's the deal with the Otheres and the Black Rock, why does the island travel through time and space, who is Jacob and MIB, and what's the deal with the paralell reality. Putting a mystery or two in the story is certainly alright, but to fill an already complicated show with material that plays a significant role in the plot that is never understood or explained is a bit of an insult to the viewer. If things like the rope bridge and the Blast Door Map and Walt's "powers"are important enough to put in the show then they pought to be important enough to explain. Ok, maybe a stretch with the bridge.--And complicated 19:48, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

How are the Jacob/MiB rules related to the Linus/Widmore rules? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NCThomas (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T17:02:31.

The producers have confirmed several times that Adam and Eve will be answered at the end of the series.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  22:24, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I think it still counts as an 'unimportant' question, though. I really doubt we're going to get the answers to every single question we have about the island, rather, they'll answer the really crucial stuff and maybe leave the rest open to interpretation. If people are expecting everything, they're going to be disappointed.--Chocky 23:14, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
I am happy they resolved what happend to cindy. that was my one question.Omggivemaafningusername 00:37, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
I just think a lot of answers to the mysteries can be kind of inferred. Re: The Supply Drops. We know that Mikhail at the Flame had information about Dharma re-supply operations. We know that Ben had many contacts off-Island who could conceivably operate under the guise of members of the Dharma Initiate (if such a guise was necessary). We know that the Others allowed Kelvin, Desmond, and others to operate the Swan Station computers, and that they would need supplies. The who, what, where, how, and why are all pretty obvious. I don't think there always has to be a deeper meaning to it all.--DanVader228 02:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
I thought that the food drop mystery was solved at the beginning of season 4. No? I'll try to clear this up for those who did not catch it. Faraday does his experiment where the payload is launched from the freighter to the Island and all that's inside is a clock... well the payload arrived 30 minutes in the future. This revealed that there is a phenomenon that occurs on the Island where inanimate objects that are launched/dropped from outside "the radius" (as Dan calls it) arrive on the Island in the future. Since the rocket was traveling thousands of MPH, and it arrived 30 minutes late, it can be inferred that something going a few MPH would arrive 20 years late. Also the clock was 30 minutes slow which revealed that (from the clocks perspective) it had only been in the air for a few seconds. This explains why the DHARMA food did not perish.
There. No need to revisit the food drops. The writers have come up with an answer that is enough to satisfy me. --Mrmagic522 06:56, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
While I agree that it isn't really 'important' at this point where the food drops come from, I have to say that the time delay theory here is majorly flawed. Do you propose that the skiff Faraday ferried survivors from the island to the boat was moving as fast as the payload? He sure seemed to make a LOT of trips in a SHORT amount of time relative to the payload and ESPECIALLY relative to the food drop which you suppose to have taken 20 years to fall to the island. Also, the Swan blast doors were scheduled to go on 'lock down' at the exact time the food dropped, so I don't think that your threory of time traveling food is supportable. I also think it's more likely to have been Widmore behind the food drops, supplying Desmond, rather than 'The Others'. The Others knew that losties had taken over The Swan and wouldn't need a food drop, but Widmore wouldn't have known this, and would have been supplying Desmond. Widmore engineered it so that Desmond would get to the island to push that button. He and Eloise knew that Desmond needed to push that button. Widmore is most likely the person behind the food/supply drop, IMO. Although, I doubt if we'll ever get a concrete answer on that, and really there are MUCH bigger things I'd like answered than where the Dharma food came from. --Usagi629 16:21, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Like I said...inanimate objects have always arrived in the future. Obviously this phenomenon doesn't apply to aircrafts, subs, etc. carrying living people. However we have also seen an instance of something arriving in the past (the dead doctor).... The point is this: I don't think that it is important to dissect every rule that applies to this phenomenon. You don't have to understand exactly how this phenomenon works... The important thing is that it does work, and that makes the Island uniquely and miraculously special. That is what you should take from all the overly complex mysteries of time perception on the Island. I don't think that the writers are going to provide us a fool-proof, multi-faceted solution that explains why every instance of "time warping" throughout the show has happened the way it did. I don't think that they will supply us with a mathematical equation that determines when certain objects, people, etc. will arrive on the Island form outside the radius. I think it is absurd to expect that, and I think it would be a huge mistake if the writers took this approach to answering some of LOST's deepest mysteries.
GUYS... coming down the home stretch, you are going to have to accept the fact that you are going to have to take what you get here. And if you don't come to accept that fact sooner rather than later, then you aren't going to enjoy the final episodes very much at all.--Mrmagic522 07:51, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
The producers already confirmed that not all the questions will be answered. I hope you've enjoyed having your time wasted as much as I have. -- Xbenlinusx 07:07, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Interwiki Links

What's up with the 20 or so Man in Black interwiki links? There is no need for that many. Besides none of the other characters have that many. --LOST-The Cartographer 18:42, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Locke has good relationship with his father?

In the flashsideways, Helen says "whaddya say we just get my parents and your dad..." implying that Locke has a good relationship with his father. If that's the case, that means that Locke didn't become crippled by being pushed out the window by his father. Joannalovesyou 18:47, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and what about that in "Lockdown" Helen refuses the proposal of John? Why when he comes back from Australia is she wating him? Didn't he lived in some kind of apartment and called a HOTLINE naming the girl Heelen? --EinStriker 16:07, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
It could also be his orphan father. In this timeline, maybe he didn't get placed in dozens of families. Marc604 22:44, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • Locke had a picture up of him and Anthony Cooper up in his office before getting fired (see promotional picture in the main The Substitute article) so he is probably in good terms with him. Phobia27 00:22, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

It will also be interesting to know whether his father still was a conman and conned Sawyer's mom? Are Sawyer's parents dead? Does he even go by Sawyer in the flash sideways? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexgrau (talkcontribs) 2010-02-18T14:59:58.

Colonel as an unanswered question?

That's a reference to Locke's break room war game in Walkabout. Mystery solved. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mcwebe0 (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T15:13:56.

Maybe. I'm thinking in this timeline he might be an actual Colonel veteran which would explain his injuries in light of the more amicable relationship he has with his Dad.--Jackdavinci 00:12, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
You would think Colonels would fare better entering the business world.
I've always thought of Locke as kind of a fatalist. If things are good, its fate. If things are bad, its fate. He might have become a Colonel in the army, but this attitude does not translate well to the "outside world" --platypusrex256
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tuttlemsm (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T21:30:10.
Agreed. Colonel is Locke's *nickname* with his war game buddy. Randy calls him that to be a douche because as Hurley puts it, he's "a huge douche." There's nothing more to read into here. --Usagi629 16:26, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
The movie Valykerie sorta shows that a Colonel could get his whole body blown apart. Cooldude 832 18:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

How did Illana, Ben, Sun, and Lapidus get from the statue to the beach camp burial site so quickly?

Dramatic license.--Chocky 21:09, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

True, dramatic license is the answer. However considering how big a deal they made about the distance between the statue and the campsite at the end of season 2 it's understandable to scratch your head.--Pittsburghmuggle 22:43, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Would you really rather have them show the next ten hours of lost being them going back to the grave.-- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  01:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
they could of at least filmed the burial scene at a distinctly different time of day, to give the illusion of time passing between locations. Just more very sloppy work on their part.--Beema|talk|contributions 04:58, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Flash Sideways Date

In "What Kate Does", they go out of their way to show that the date the plane landed was Oct 22, 2004. However, when Randy confronts Locke in this episode, he says "I thought you wanted to take your vacation in October, for your wedding." This makes no sense whatsoever.. I think it's safe to say there's a continuity error in there somewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WeirdDNA (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T18:33:57.

  • The October thing comes from the sonogram. Which was already confimed to be a prop mistake. The October wedding is just the final nail in that crazy theory's coffin. --LeoChris 23:41, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Misinformation is like a virus around here. No wonder people get so confused.--DanVader228 06:02, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • They never said exactly what the prop error was on the sonogram, just that "one of the three numbers was wrong" however Sayid's passport is also dated October as I recall.WeirdDNA 16:34, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • According to this: [[1]]. We know from Gregg Nations that it is not the case that "10 is a clue and 04 is a mistake". Of course, by logic, this still leaves a few possibilities that were not denied, (ex: 10 is a clue and 22 a mistake, 04 is a clue and 22 is a mistake) that would still allow the sonogram date to be in October. However, I think it's pretty clear from this episode's more explicit reference to October being in the future that the 10 was the mistake. Sure, it could be "next October", but Helen's amount of activity in this episode seems to imply the wedding is coming very soon. Clamshell 14:58, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Seeming contradiction

My biggest problem with this cave list is that we know that Jacob has been giving the Others lists of people to join the Others, and presumably these would correspond with the names in the cave. However, a great number of the people whose names are in the caves were killed by the Others! They would seem to be working at cross purposes to Jacob. --Jackdavinci 00:11, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think The Others have been following orders from both Jacob AND the MIB without knowing it. Jacob rather obviously lives in the statue, but Ben thought he lived in the cabin. This points to wires being crossed.--Pittsburghmuggle 01:12, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
Jacob probably did live in the cabin for a while, and they indicate it was until the ash circle was disturbed. Ilana, Bram, etc. went there looking for Jacob and mentioned that he hadn't used it in a while.Maxpower212 19:19, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
Jacob never lived in the Cabin. He's always lived in the "Shadow of the Statue". Ilana and her party were looking for MiB, but discovered the ash circle was disturbed, meaning he had escaped and was elsewhere. When they said "someone else [was] using it", they were talking about Christian (and possibly Claire). MiB had not been there for a "long time" because the ash had been disturbed at least* three years ago, if not earlier *(presumably by Hurley). Ben only referred to the cabin as "Jacob's cabin" because he didn't know where Jacob really lived, and thought it would make for a good con on Locke. It was only once Locke stirred the MiB and things started going crazy that Ben thought it really *was* Jacob in the cabin, which is why he took Locke back there for "Further Instruction". --Usagi629 17:34, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
It seems that none of the Others (except for Richard and possibly Hawking or other leaders) really knew what Jacob wanted. I think that Dogen's point of remaining separate from his people also applies to Jacob, and most of the Others could really only take direction from their current leader. Maxpower212 19:19, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
Jacob needed things to happen the way they happened. If Jack had been taken by the others, would we be where we are now? Would Jack be willing to do what needs to be done next (for Jacob)? No. The lists Jacob gave the others were not for candidates necessarily, so much as collecting "pure/good-hearted" people -- people that would follow him / his word. It seems to me that candidates can't be *taken* they must come of their own *free-will*. Also, all the 'known' crossed out names I've seen were killed by MiB or his *influence*. Shannon was killed because of MiB showing up as Walt. Nikki was killed by MiB as a Medusa spider. Locke was killed by a MiB influenced Ben. The French scientists were killed / infected by MiB as the Smoke Monster. Boone was killed because MiB told Locke in a dream to go to that plane. (I'll concede one could argue over whether that dream came from Jacob or MiB.) So, exactly who did the Others kill? --Usagi629 16:40, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Two Lists

The names in the cave make up MIBs list. They never appeared on Jacob's list. Jacob interacted with them in an attempt to prevent them from fulfilling the purpose of being on MIBs list: replacing him so he could get off the island. Just my guess. --Gattica 00:24, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Might 'Flocke' have written them in hopes to get himself a sidekick of sorts (like Ben is to Jacob), and he has weeded them out to those final six? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stinavee (talkcontribs) 2010-02-17T21:28:58.

Walkabout -- A Different Locke

After I watched this episode, I thought I saw some inconsistencies with the way the pre-crash Locke was portrayed in "Walkabout". So I watched that episode again. Although I there weren't any glaring factual contradictions between the episodes, there were facts that didn't quite fit. The big one has to do with Locke's love life: in "Walkabout", Randy scoffs at the idea that Locke could have a girl friend named Helen, and in fact it turns out that Helen is just a phone sex operator Locke is infatuated with; in "The Substitute" Locke's love life is less pathetic, with a supportive and affectionate fiance. You can explain away these contradictions, but they still indicate that they didn't know exactly who Locke was at the beginning of the series. For such an important character, that's pretty disappointing. Isaac32767 00:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • A bomb went off in 1977 that didn't originally go off, and now there are all kinds of ripple effects, and... nevermind. Marc604 04:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • I disagree entirely. Helen dumped Locke in the old timeline after him being unable to cope with what Anthony Cooper did to him. Locke's coping with the loneliness proceeds to imply a tragic loss in the first episode we see him. With all holes filled, that story (at least) makes sense. MarioColbert 01:57, February 18, 2010 (UTC) EDIT: You also seem to openly assume that the alt timeline is "the same" as the other one - the differences, however, are at best "unclear" about the situation - _NOT_ just factually incorrect (including Hurley's referring to himself as the luckiest guy on Earth). MarioColbert 01:59, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • Also, note that Helen mentioned inviting her parents and his father to the Wedding. Obviously something changed in his life if Locke's willing to invite that man. Clamshell 14:04, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
  • Obviously, The time-line was changed by the bomb and the resulting interaction of the people, children of the submarine and others who would had gone to the Island previously, are now affecting lives in the world. In example, in a imaginary scenario: Ethan saves a child and thus the child's father does not have to go to a child's funeral but instead arrest a young Locke's father who then is criminally rehabilitated. So, then Locke's father is no longer a killer-con-man but a good father and a teacher! This is why Hurley is cursed in the previous time-line but is the "luckiest-man-alive" in the current time-line.Sobek1 03:34, February 21, 2010 (UTC)Sobek1
    • Yes. This. Hurley still wins the lottery because it's his *Fate* to do so, but he doesn't win with the "cursed numbers" because he never got them from Lenny because Lenny never would have heard them in 1988 because the island had blown up / been sunk (what have you), and therefore Hurley's lotto winnings were never cursed, so yes, he *is* the "luckiest man alive". It's called the butterfly effect. (And an H-Bomb is a LOT bigger than a butterfly.) The bomb going off has changed more things than just 815 not crashing. MUCH more. --Usagi629 17:44, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Flocke is a polar bear!

The truth is finally revealed: Flocke is a polar bear --SoNickPick 20:16, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • That's awesome! It says that "Flocke" is German for "snowflake". I hope Sawyer uses "snowflake" as a derogatory nickname for MIB before the season is over. ;) --DanVader228 06:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Stooges - Search and Destroy

Just a little nitpicky note regarding this song: I think in the plot summary we should simply refer to it genericly as "rock music" (or "proto-punk" if you want to be a snob :p), and then note the specific song and artist in the Trivia section. Thoughts? Also wondering if I could add to the trivia section the song's release date (1973) and playing format (vinyl) could indicate it being a hold-over from when Dharma was at the Barracks. Interesting of note as well is the song's refrian "I am the world's forgotten boy, the one who's searching, searching to destroy" is being played as the camera focuses on Flocke. --Beema|talk|contributions 05:00, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • Also, according to wikipedia, "The Stooges <...> is an American rock band from Ann Arbor, Michigan". Shouldn't this be mentioned? And "Search&Destroy" link is linking to some military tactic, not to the actual song, is it supposed to be this way? --ENT 23:51, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
good points. I think the Ann Arbor thing should definitely be in Trivia.--Beema|talk|contributions 22:08, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • It seems that Locke/Nemesis could possibly be doing just that; searching (for Sawyer as well as the Little Boy) and, if we are to believe Richard, destroying. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hobbit86 (talkcontribs) 2010-02-21T15:28:22.

The Game

At this point in the series, a lot of Lostpediacs are inclined to agree that there is a “game” of cosmic proportions taking place on the island. From Season 1 on, we have been assuming that the game of backgammon might be an important metaphor (it’s one of the world’s most ancient games, opposes two players, one black and one white) for the bigger game opposing Jacob and his Nemesis. But backgammon relies too much on chance an is too simple a game to fit within the free will/determinism and other black/white leitmotifs of the show. There is another game, as ancient as backgammon, which uses black and white stones and relies on super complex strategy and the ability to anticipate your opponent’s moves: Go. Its rules are fairly simple, but you need to play thousands of games in order to become a decent player, which Nemesis seems to have become after spending centuries stuck playing it on the island. People often refer to Go as the most complex game with the world because there is an almost infinite number of variations (and assorted timelines?) for every single turn and because the first stone you put on the board can influence the whole outcome of the game.

Perusing the Wikipedia entry for Go (extremely well written, by someone who is a much better player than I’ll ever be…) is almost like reading the synopsis for Lost. So many parallels can be drawn between the game and the series it’s scary. Even the vocabulary used in Go is very Lostean. Players make « connections » to build « chains » of stones (as in : « it’s good to see you out of those chains, Richard… », groups of stones are referred to as «  alive », « dead » or « unsettled » (we’ve seen a lot of those recently), rules prevent « suicide » of a stone (Michael’s failed suicide attempts) and the game is all about one colour gaining influence over the board (during the game, areas of the board turn from black to white influence, and vice-versa) through attack, defense or « sacrifice » (« They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same »). I could go on for days, but before I flesh out more complete theories, I’m putting this teaser as an appeal to Go playing Lostpediacs to expand on possible links between the game and the series.

But I’ll risk an early all encompassing theory for what is going on. The numbers (and the people associated with them) are stones in the game. In Go, there are 361 spaces on the board (and as many stones) . There are apparently 360 possible candidates, judging from the list in the cave and the wheel in the lighthouse. A lot of the names in the cave have been « played » and have changed sides over the course of the season (Dharmaites and Losties becoming Others, Others becoming Losties, US soldiers becoming Others, and, in general, "bad" people becoming "good", etc.). Also, in Go, "dead" stones can remain on the board (which might explain why some names are crossed out but are still alive on the island).

More food for thought, from the Go entry on Wikipedia : « A comparison of Go and chess is often used as a parallel to explain Western versus Eastern strategic thinking. Go begins with an empty board. It is focused on building from the ground up (nothing to something) with multiple, simultaneous battles leading to a point-based win. Chess, one can say, is in the end tactical rather than strategic, as the predetermined strategy is to kill one individual piece (the king). (…) A similar comparison has been drawn among Go, chess and backgammon, perhaps the three oldest games that still enjoy worldwide popularity.[89] Backgammon is a "man vs. fate" contest, with chance playing a strong role in determining the outcome. Chess, with rows of soldiers marching forward to capture each other, embodies the conflict of "man vs. man". Because the handicap system tells Go players where they stand relative to other players, an honestly ranked player can expect to lose about half of their games; therefore, Go can be seen as embodying the quest for self-improvement—"man vs. self".». Isn’t that what the whole journey on the island is all about? --SoNickPick 15:25, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I dropped this long post on the Talk page because I was notr sure where to put it. I'm open to suggestions...--SoNickPick 15:34, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

  • No reaction? Should I just post this on the Theories page?--SoNickPick 14:51, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • Absolutely. There are many theories that explain the story through the backgammon game, for example [here] and [here]. But this one could be very much appropriate. Especially for the for self-improvement objective. For example, the objective of DI was to change the core values of the Valenzetti Equation (variables), which are the Numbers; we now learned that the Numbers correspond to people, but Faraday said that he discovered that the People are the variables. So, people must change. Particular people in this case. --V-vk 21:40, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
    • I think that, while comparisons to games can be made -- particularly Go, chess, and backgammon -- it's too simplistic for a show where there's never been a simple answer for anything. But they do talk about "the rules" constantly, and there was that promo for this season of LOST where all the players were shown on a giant chessboard, so the references to games are intentional. I just think it's a little premature to say the whole show is a giant Go game. Joannalovesyou 17:24, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • I think it's a good metaphor, and well thought out. My guess is that the black/white, good/evil metaphor is bigger than just one game.Maxpower212 19:27, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
    • I actually think this is a genius theory. It's more logical and plausible than 90% of the other theories I've seen put forth. My question is if this is the game, what are the stakes? --Mdnew 22:02, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
      • Maybe it's just a Faust type deal: Jacob told Nemesis "I'll give you eternal life if you play a little game with me..."--SoNickPick 04:50, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
        • Oooh. I like this. ;) --Usagi629 17:56, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
    • By the way a game of Go has 361 pieces. Last night we saw there were 360 names on the wheel in the lighthouse. It just gets better and better... --Mdnew 19:10, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
      • Want more fun? As I explained, the object of go is to gain territory by capturing the opponent's stones (or should I say candidates?), and Nemesis seems to be doing just fine in that department (ie: "recuiting" Jacob's candidates). One of the techniques used to capture stones in Go is called a "ladder". Every time you add a step to the ladder, you reduce your opponent's "liberties" (made me think of Sawyer going down to the cave; when the ladder broke, he only had one way to go: down). There is a proverb associated with the game that states: "If you don't know ladders, don't play Go". Proverbs are used in Go to memorize strategies and rules of the game. Some are vague enough to fit within the Lost universe (such as "The opponent's vital point is my vital point"), others fit perfectly ("Beware of going back to patch up" might be interpreted as "don't mess with the timeline, dude"). And I'm sure numbers obsessed lostpediacs would have fun with this one: "Four is five and five is eight and six is twelve". Here's a link to a complete list of Go proverbs[2]--SoNickPick 20:06, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

calling all sysops! I'll be moving this thread to the Theories page. Any advice on cleanup?--SoNickPick 21:36, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Flocke interaction with Sawyer

In the barracks, Flocke says to Sawyer "what if I told you I was the person who could answer the most important question in the world...why are you on this island?". Notice he doesn't say "most important question in your life" but "in the world" which suggests that Sawyer's/losties' reason for being on the island impacts not only them but the fate of the world. Cpt cannibal 19:58, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Burning the cabin

If Ilana is correct about the MiB having to remain in the form of Locke, is it because she burned the cabin?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:17, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think it has more to do with killing Jacob, since the cabin has only been around as long as Horace built it...--Jackdavinci 08:36, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
According to theories about time-bending around the island, whenever Horace has built the cabin, it was there always. --V-vk 21:14, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think the cabin would have that much power. The cabin was just a 'holding cell' if you will. I agree that it's Jacob's death that has MiB 'stuck' looking like Locke. --Usagi629 17:59, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Why is Kate not a candidate? UQ

I've removed this several times, but it keeps getting re-added so I guess a discussion is in order. This is not a valid UQ. If we're asking it about Kate then why aren't we also asking it about Claire, or the 2nd Kwon or Miles or Frank (as to why he's not listed) or anyone else on the Island? There's no good reason to single out Kate for a question, particularly if we ask something general like "Who exactly are the candidates?" or "How are they chosen?".  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:29, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I Think "Who are the candidates, how are they chosen, and why do some get crossed out?" covers it. --Jackdavinci 04:28, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
Actually it's a fairly good question cause we kinda connected the candidates to being the ones touched by Jacob in the season 5 finale. Flocke also said that James had met him in some point in his life so that kinda confirms the touching part of being important. In addition to that obviously why is either Sun or Jin also not a candidate. Jared 10:12, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
I agree -- the conversation pointed out all of Jacob's visits to the survivors from S5 except, mysteriously, for Kate. Would call it a valid UQ. Random tangent, but I seem to recall from S3 Locke telling Kate the Others rejected her after they found out her past. Spiral77 23:28, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
She's on the wheel, and her name isn't crossed out. She is a candidate, just not one of the numbers. --Golden Monkey 21:18, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Teacher Certification

What are the requirements for becoming a substitute teacher in California? They didn't really say how much later that scene was, but I'd think it would take a couple of years to go through the teacher training and certification. I doubt this would be the sort of position that would be assigned by a temporary employment agency.

So, here're the possibilities I can come up with: 1) The scene at the school took place several years later (maybe closer to the 2008/9 timeline on the island), after Locke had gone back to school to become a teacher. 2) In this alternate timeline, Locke had been a teacher before the accident. Perhaps he was a phy ed teacher, and felt that he couldn't continue that job from a wheelchair. And now, he is trying to get back into doing what he used to love. 3) California will just let anybody come in off of the street and become a teacher. 4) The writers didn't do the research. Clamshell 14:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how it is in California but in my school district in Kansas City, MO all you need is 60 college credits to substitute teach. You don't even need to be certified. So when I saw it that's just what I assumed was going on but again I don't know what goes down in California. Brotha305 14:49, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah in michigan i sub teach and ive still not yet got my certification its 90 credits needed here though. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  14:54, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

In Texas all you need to have done is graduate High School. --Messeis 15:05, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, you guys are right. According to this [[3]], for California all you need is a Bachelor's Degree and pass a basic skills test to become a sub. I still see a couple of problems, however: A) It wasn't clear if the original timeline Locke went to college, in fact, based on his various jobs I would guess that he hadn't. B) I still highly doubt that a substitute teaching position would be assigned by a temporary agency. Clamshell 15:31, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
We probably need to remember that this a different timeline. Sideway-flash Locke may very well be a college graduate who suffered some spinal injury not related to his father pushing him out a window and whose father is not an adversary but, if they want him at the wedding, a supporter.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:50, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


The climax of the episode contained brief in-episode flashbacks to The Incident, certainly a rarity if not unprecedented. Should that be noted in the recap? --Jbillones 19:26, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the hyperlink to "The Incident" page in the part of the summary that refers to MIB explaining that Jacob may have "touched" the candidates' lives is sufficient for the summary without all the flashback notations in parentheses. There seems to be disagreement between some editors. It's important to the summary, but not to explain the flashbacks. Stick with the hyperlink, in my opinion.--DanVader228 05:32, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Surveillance Camera in the Cave

Did anybody else notice (what looks like) a surveillance camera on one of the cave walls? Right after Flocke says to Sawyer, "This is why your here, James. This is why you're all here," the camera starts to rotate around Sawyer, and on the left side of the screen (moving from right to left and eventually out of frame) is what looks to me like a surveillance camera. It's a black circle with a flashing red light above it. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what this could be? Maybe it's just a production error... though I don't know what they would put on the wall of the cave that has a flashing red light on it. It really reminded me of the DHARMA stations!--Mrmagic522 07:14, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

One can only speculate, but good eye! My guess is a production error. It's only visible for like 6 frames.

Blinking red light at 35:22 of 6x04

--Jackdavinci 10:42, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

What did Sawyer drink?

  • What is Sawyer drinking, and is the nemisis putting aside? DHARMA Rum or Whiskey? --LOST-Hunter61 12:32, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
    • It does have the DHARMA logo on it, and Sawyer says "...all I care about is this whiskey." Appears to me as though the bottle actually says WHISKEY on the bottom of the label. -Cpt cannibal 23:25, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
      • Thx, you're right! --LOST-Hunter61 10:59, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • I suspect it is significant that the nemesis turned down the drink. Doesn't he have bodily needs? --LOST-Hunter61 11:17, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
    • Don't know if he has bodily needs but he sure looked like he enjoyed that mango that Ilana gave him on the beach. I think Flocke actually said it was the best mango he ever had, implying that it had been a while since he had appeared in human form.--SoNickPick 23:00, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
Dharma whiskey. We've seen Flocke eat an apple. And it looks like he tastes the whiskey and then puts it down.--Jackdavinci 20:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sawyer drinks some Dharma whiskey

  • My last point on this topic is that were I in Flocke's position, knowing the journey I was setting out for, and someone handed me a glass of whiskey in the middle of the afternoon.. I'd probably not drink it either. Not that he doesn't have needs, or necessarily against alcohol, just not the time and place. -Cpt cannibal 03:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

A clue on the shape of things to come?

This may be far out, but again may not have that great a significance.. However, I think it's noticeable that this, the 4th episode, had the 4th candidate, Locke as a centric character, and that he is now crossed out in the cavern while his story is more or less rounded off. The next episode ("Lighthouse") appears to be centered around Jack (23th candidate) and are going to air on the 23rd. This could be easter-egg-like clues, but possibly also completely accidental. However there's still time to cross out three more of the candidates in their respective episode-numbers (8, 15 and 16) and still keep the season finale (episode 17/18) open for a big show-down. NorthernRealmJackal 22:28, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Ilana carrying Jacob's ashes in a pouch, to the Temple?

Is this possibly inspired by the plot of the movie Dragonslayer? --20:34, February 21, 2010 (UTC)Dingbatty

  • Nice catch here. It's possible. I definitely expect to see Jacob resurrected before the end. Maybe this is how they will do it. --Usagi629 18:08, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

What Kind of animal you are?

I kind believe everybody missed the reference, but it's definitely not on the page. When Lynn Karnoff (flash-sideways timeline) interviews Locke, she asks him what kind of animal he identifies himself with. According to Mysteries of the Universe, this is one of the questions asked by DHARMA recruiters at their job interviews. No way this could be a coincidence. MauserContact 19:09, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

  • I doubt it's a coincidence, but I also wouldn't read too much into it either. --Usagi629 18:10, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
  • Was this actress the same one who Hurley's father payed off to lie to Hurley and pretend she was removing his curse? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cpt cannibal (talkcontribs) 2010-02-25T13:20:10.
  • If this is a DHARMA interview question, does this mean Rose is associated with DHARMA?ShadowJack 15:31, March 1, 2010 (UTC)ShadowJack.

Current Picture

The current pic for the episode (Locke in red pajamas smiling upward) I don't remember at all from the episode. Does it even appear in the episode? If so, can someone enlighten us as to where? If not, shouldn't we get a pic that's actually IN the episode? Marc604 03:50, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

  • They're not pyjamas, it's just a shirt. And it's from when he's teaching. The same shirt can be seen here...
    6x04 NewFriends
    .  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:53, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure it's actually a promo pic, in which case it needs to be replaced. I like your suggestion better. --Pyramidhead 04:07, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
  • Its actually not a promo pic so it doesnt need to be replaced. Promo pics wouldnt have the abc logo at the bottom its a screencap that occurs during lockes off island interaction with ben. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  04:50, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
Well, I still support the other picture. --Pyramidhead 08:38, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. The screenshot appears at the very last moment in this scene, if anyone's interested: Marc604 09:22, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Free will in regards to following MIB and Jacob

This episode further emphasized that MIB and Jacob cannot force anyone to follow them and do anything. Jacob visited various characters to nudge them in the right direction, but not force them to do anything. In this episode, MIB/Flocke asked Richard to follow him, but Richard refused. MIB/Flocke could not force him to follow him. MIB/Flocke also had to manipulate Sawyer to convince him to follow MIB/Flocke. It should be interesting how this theme will play out in this season. Platypus3 20:11, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Fake Locke/Smoke Monster ISN'T MIB

Why do people still think the smoke monster is the Man In Black? The two creators of lost (their names escape me atm) confirmed it in an Jimmy Kimmel interview afew weeks back, unless i'm missing something that should be all anyone needs FMJ 19:43, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • Can you get a transcript or something of the relevant portion of the interview? Based solely on the content of the show, it seems obvious to me and many others that the three are the same person.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:48, February 26, 2010 (UTC) this is the video, around halfway in. Only thing i can think of is that he played off incorrect wording to fool us. FMJ 19:51, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram reply This transcipt has them saying that Locke isn't possessed by the Man in Black. The man in black has assumed the form of Locke for yet unknown reasons. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 19:54, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

UQ Cleanup. Questions answered.

What is the Man in Black recruiting for? - a team to help him get off the Island
How is the Man in Black trapped? - He can't leave, Jacob has him plugged by the Island
Why is he trapped? - Because he is evil
What betrayal did the Man in Black suffer? - Jacob took his body and soul

How are they chosen? - Jacob chooses them
Why are some names crossed out? - because they are dead or allied with MiB
Why does Jacob and any potential candidate need to "protect" the Island? - so it can keep MiB there

What is Locke's relationship with his father? - good - he's coming to his wedding

The above are removed, and for people not watching these are some shorthand answers. Charles Kane 06:06, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Moved questions re: Locke's relationship with his father and how he became paralyzed to alt-Locke's page. This is a better location for these UQ as they're not explicitly raised by the episode and are more viewer-curiousity based given we know what happened in the alternate timeline. Spiral77 20:03, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


I removed the following:

  • In the classroom Locke very obviously checks the textbook in mid-sentence to see what he’ll be teaching that day, while behind him on the whiteboard are already bullet points and illustrations on the subject.

Even without the notes on the board, we can assume the man knew what he was teaching more than a second before starting to speak. He just looked down the way you look at your notes before starting a speech

Besides, I think a good rule for blooper entries would be "if we told the director before he shot the scene, and he could have, without any effort, avoided this, would he have?" In this case, yeah, the topic's on the board, but Locke looking down at his book is just a funny shot that expresses his un-confidence well. --- Balk Of Fametalk 01:20, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

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