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Radio tower really abandoned by DHARMA?

  • What reason would there be for that? - We know it was only used for broadcasting the numbers, so was

probably automated, perhaps security patrolled the area, but thats about all. --Nzoomed 10:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Danielle replaced the numbers broadcast with her message in 1989. The Dharma gang left it alone for the next three years until the purge, so it's likely they abandoned it before then! --Sfoskett 22:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Timeline errors

In what way is Mikhail's timeline of 1993 inconsistant with Danielle? She doesn't say there was no one on the island - in fact she clearly states that she knew there were others on the island. She just avoided them for reasons of safety. If this isn't made clearer it should be deleted. --Jackdavinci 20:19, 22 March 2007 (PDT)

And Mikhail might've arrived at some other point. The 11 years was when he said he was Dharma, but later he said he was recruited when he was 24. For that matter, why does it say it would have to be after 1993, even if Mikhail had arrived on that date the purge would've been before his time, since he was recruited by the Others and not Dharma.--Sauron18 20:38, 22 March 2007 (PDT)
Danielle claims to have arrived on the island in 1988 and did not see any person other than her team for the next 16 years. Mikhail says he arrived in 1993 and seems to have been a witness to the purge. There are two possibilities:
  • The purge happened before 1988 and the island was empty when the science team arrived.
  • The purge happened after 1988 and Danielle is not telling the truth.
    • Wrong, Danielle has NEVER said she arrived in 1988. We all think she did because she said it was 16 years ago, but time moves differently on and off the Island. So she arrived there 16 ISLAND years ago. Whereas Mikhail arrived there in 1993 OUTSIDE time.
      • The time differential is not nearly drastic enough to offset by any amount of time that wouldn't make the 16 year difference 1988. ("The Economist")
      • Keep in mind, the 16 years number was arrived at by counting the number of times her message had been * repeating at the transmitter. So we know she's BEEN ON the island for 16 years, but NOT what year she arrived.
She does not state that she knew there were others on the island. She says she never saw anyone and only knows of the Others through the whispers:

(from Solitary)

  • Sayid: "Have you seen other people on this island?
  • Danielle: "No. But I hear them. Out there in the jungle. they whisper."
As to avoiding them, in her first two months on the island, her team was actively exploring the island and searching for the radio tower. She would not seem to have been avoiding anyone for safety at that time. Her whole story about avoiding people is really questionable considering that she seems to have spent considerable time setting traps for humans all over the island and that she imprisoned and tortured Sayid.
They have repeatedly said on the podcasts that everything Mikhail said is true except for being part of the initiative. Mikhail strongly suggests that he was a witness to the events of the purge. That strongly suggests that they have to be dated 1993 or after.
Back-dating Mikhail as being on the island on or before 1988 is problematical in that it means that his story about leaving the Soviet Army at the end of the cold war is false. Again, people associated with the show say we should take everything but being part of Dharma as true.
The reason I've put it in the article as it appears now is because we don't have enough information to reconcile the two stories. Its possible that Mikhail wasn't a direct witness to the purge. Its equally possible that Rousseau has never quite told the truth. The one thing I can't buy into is that she and her team were on the island while Dharma was still operating and didn't meet any of them.... or that she didn't notice the purge. Dharmatel4 22:37, 24 March 2007 (PDT)
True, everything Mikhail said was true, except the Dharma thing, which is also connected to the 11 year date, and possibly untrue. Especially when he gives us a new date that expands the time for a few more years. --Sauron18 01:10, 25 March 2007 (PDT)
  • Clearly Mikhail couldn't pretend to be Dharma and have arrived on the island after the purge. If we accept it's difficult to reconcile an earlier arrival on the island with being in the soviet army in Afghanistan then he must have been lying that he was present during the purge. Ergo, we have no definite date for the purge. I suggest the article and timeline is modified to reflect this. --Backdooruk 07:20, 26 March 2007 (PDT)
I think you are assuming that he pretended to be Dharma when he arrived on the island. I dont think we know that. I think we should accept as true that he arrived in 1993 but anything to do with him being an eyewitness to the purge should be qualified. Dharmatel4 08:33, 26 March 2007 (PDT)
No, I’m pointing out that he couldn’t pretend to be a survivor of Dharma if the purge happened before he arrived on the island, so he has to tell Losties that he saw the purge whether he did or not. -- Backdooruk 08:56, 26 March 2007 (PDT)
Agree with Dharmate14, we can't assume that everything he said is true. We know he was lying somewhat, but not the full extent of his lies. Now if you want to add to theories thats a plausible bit of reasoning, but we can't assume it on the main article.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   08:38, 26 March 2007 (PDT)

I say we remove any assumptions of when the Purge happened. What we know for sure is that it happened before Mikhail was recruited by Jacob, because Jacob is an Other and this would've been after the purge. It all depends on how old MIkhail is, because he was recruited when he was 24 by the Others, which means that the purge had to occur before that. --Sauron18 14:16, 15 April 2007 (PDT)

According to his initial DHARMA story, the purge happened after he was on the island (11 years ago) and after he was put in charge of the Flame (10 years ago). Knowing that he wasn't in DHARMA, it's impossible to know whether he was part of the Others already when the purge happened or if he was told of it after the fact. In any case, it's probably best to just frame what we know from him as "When posing as DHARMA, Mikhail said....blah blah....but later admitted he wasn't a DHARMA member but claimed the rest of his story to be true, which was confirmed by the producers" --Jackdavinci 00:34, 16 April 2007 (PDT)
Further, if the Purge happened before 1988 then the bodies have remained remarkably intact in an open grave in a tropical climate for almost 20 years. The condition of the bodies and their clothes, along with their exposure to the elements and wild animals, would lead me to believe that the purge happened less than 5 years ago (that is, before Locke saw them). --Doc 09:49, 10 May 2007 (PDT)
There's another issue with the Purge timeline. The road map from the dharma van was supposed to show, according to Carlton Cuse, that the Dharma stations were linked by (dirt?) roads which gradually became overgrown after falling into disuse. In the interview Cruse says this happened over about 25 years. Clearly the roads and vans are in use at the time of the Purge. That suggests the Purge happened before 1980. It would also help explain why those old-fashioned VW dharma vans were still in use at the time of the Purge. However, I think the big clue here is that anyone noticing these roads would immediately be aware of where the Dharma buildings were located on the island. Rousseau seems genuinely unaware of them, though, so (unless she is pretending) she couldn't have seen any trace of the roads. Even if they were badly overgrown, a good tracker like Locke or Roussea, or even Sayid, would surely spot the presence of a road network. Unless, as Cruse suggests, it was overgrown several decades earlier. That would mean, though, that the Dharma initiative must have been destroyed and the roads overgrown many years before Rousseau even came to the island. If that was way back before 1980, then it must have happened long before Kelvin (who was in the first Gulf war in 1991) could have possiby arrived on the island. Kelvin could not have been enlisted by the original Dharma initiative. This would be consistent with the fact that Kelvin also fails to mention knowing that other stations, etc., were linked by the old road network. The road map seems to show a major Dharma road leading from Kelvin's Swan station itself, though. --HypnoSynthesis 12:15, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

Danielle and the Purge

Now that we're in season 5, we have much more information:

  • November 18, 1988 - Danielle arrived on the island
  • Early January, 1989 - Danielle kills the team, replaces the numbers broadcast, and Alex is born
  • December 19, 1992 - Ben and the others kill the remaining Dharma Initiative members

This timeline is puzzling. The Dharma folks were active on the island (even traveling around in their vans to remote places like the Mesa) for almost four years after Danielle arrived! Yet she never saw any of them? And they never bothered to reset the numbers broadcast, even though she replaced it three years before they were killed off? Something was really off with the DI from the late '80s to 1992! I guess that 1987 funding cut really affected them! --Sfoskett 23:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Total Fabrication

What reason do we have to believe anything that Mikhail said to Sayid after The Flame was discovered is true? We know that Mikhail was a willing and knowledgeable member of the Others from the events that transpired in "One of Us". He knew about the Losties, and particularly about Sayid, since he was the one researching info on all the Losties (per Ben's request). Frankly, I think all of what Mikhail said was complete fabrication, just meant to confuse and mislead the Losties. Mikhail was probably making up the whole story about 11 years and whatnot. Lastly, if The Flame was originally a DHARMA station, and it was taken over by the Others (Hostiles), why wouldn't they defuse or remove all the C-4 that was there once they took it over? Why would they leave it there? It seems like a huge risk. Gabefarkas 12:27, 13 April 2007 (PDT)

TPTB said that what he said, apart from being part of DHARMA, was true. I dunno if his 11 years were part of the DHARMA lie, since he later said he was recruited when he was 24, but the rest is pretty clear and true. --Sauron18 12:34, 13 April 2007 (PDT)
TBTB means "the powers that be" (I had to look it up, so I figured someone else might need to as well) and in this case is Carlton and Damon specifically. --Bastion 12:43, 13 April 2007 (PDT)

Screenshot

I added a screenshot; if you find it offensive or inappropriate, feel free to remove it.  —Thinker  

the meaning of the purge

Two meanings have been given for the purge.

"They foolishly initiated a war against The Hostiles, the purge they called it." Mikhail

"When it became clear that one side had to go, that one side had to be purged, I did what I had to do" Ben

Mikhail's quote suggests that the purge refers to the entire conflict. Ben's quote seems to suggest that it refers to the gassing of the barracks.

I would tend to go with Ben's statement. Mikhail's statement no longer seems to make much sense. Dharmatel4 09:52, 10 May 2007 (PDT)

Ben's and Mikhail's statements do not conflict, Mikhail said that the DI started the conflict, we have no evidence to show that they did not start the conflict. Ben's memories showed that the Hostiles were the victors, his words "one side had to be purged" were not "one side had to lose the Purge", it is not used as a noun at all. - Next362 11:07, 10 May 2007 (PDT)

Add Specific Date, December 22nd?

The Purge was specifically completed on December 22nd (year unknown), Ben's birthday. - Next362 11:07, 10 May 2007 (PDT)

Featured?

WTF? Why is this featured!? There are much better articles than this one! --Blueeagleislander 00:44, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

i agree.. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 15:44, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

Who named it?

I just corrected a slight grammatical error in the intro, and I originally put it as "the name the Hostiles gave..."- would this be considered as correct? It certainly seems like a term that the Hostiles coined. For now I've left it without info on who named it.--Chocky 14:40, 18 May 2007 (PDT)

Ben's Statement

When Ben was talking to Jack on the episode "Through the Looking Glass" I believe I heard Ben mention that "not long ago [he] had to make a hard decision," and from what he said, it sounded like he was describing 'The Purge.' Perhaps this means it did not happen as long ago as people once thought? Or did I mishear this? I'm not 100 percent sure on it so if someone could let me know, that'd be great. Also, this is my first post/anything on here, so if I did something wrong, I apologize.--AcrossTheAtlantic 22:46, 23 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Yes, that is what he said, but I suspect it's just Ben being obtuse and vague, as usual. As it is, we don't have any definite timeframe on the Purge (speculation based on a watch seems a bit far-fetched to me), but it must have at least happened before Desmond arrived, or you would have thought he would be aware of it.--Chocky 15:07, 24 May 2007 (PDT)
  • This could refer to Ben's feelings and the incident still being close at heart. Althou Ben's fathers death may not afected him much, there may have been others that he cared about that day that had to die also ( just because of the illegeance ). --ScubaZ 20:56, 7 March 2008 (PST)ScubaZ
  • In the episode Cabin Fever hurley asks ben about who wiped out the DHARMA Initiative, Ben replyes it was not my decision, it was their leaders, meaning it was the others leaders at that time, possibly Jacob's —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nzoomed (talkcontribs) 2008-05-11T18:56:05.
  • This could also mean that it was Horace's decision, the DI leader on the island. The scene is reminiscent of the Jonestown massacre that was instigated by the People's Temple cult leader Jim Jones. [[1]] Hoorset 20:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Trailer confirms date?

The trailer for cabin fever seems to confirm the date. Is this still a spoiler? Thedarxide 08:40, 2 May 2008 (PDT)

Yeah it is. Horace says he's been dead for 12 years, and its 2004. That means that 2004-0012=1992. So that means that the Purge occured at 4 pm. on December 19, 1992. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marko14126 (talkcontribs) 2008-05-07T16:05:10.
Is this the only source for this? Kind of shaky if it's just Locke's dream about a ghost who tends to repeat himself. 1992 seems late, that would put Ben in his 30s. Still, if there's another source, i might be inclined to believe it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mdmarkus66 (talkcontribs) 2008-05-09T21:49:27.

Why did the gas not kill any other mammals on the island?

When Ben released the toxic gas on the island during the purge, would it not have killed any mammals on the island also, like birds, polar bears and the wild animals? did they throw canisters in the barracks and the stations, that only worked locally? if so how did they know they actually got all DHARMA members on the island? there could have been DHARMA members all around the island that never got the toxic gas--Nzoomed 15:33, 25 May 2008 (PDT)

The only explanation would be that the Tempest's toxic agent was formulated only to affect humans. (I don't know of any such toxin.) Robert K S (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2008 (PDT)
I think it's pretty obvious it was a short acting non lingering gas from the way it was used. Ben had to deliver it to his father so it seems unlikely it pervaded the entire island. And we know some Dharma people did escape, i.e. the Swan inhabitants. I would think the cows would be near the Dharma people but maybe the ranch was far enough away from the Barracks and so forth to be unaffected. I think the gas was probably hand delivered by "double agents" to each grouping of Dharma people at a time when they knew there wouldn't be many en route to anywhere. It's also possible they used the cerberus vents or underground tunnel systems. --Jackdavinci 18:30, 25 May 2008 (PDT)
The Swan inhabitants were hermetically sealed inside. The Swan appears to have been designed, and its crew trained, specifically to survive any activation of the Tempest. And we've already been told that the Purge event was Island-wide--Ben only pulled out the gas canister for his dad for dramatic effect. Either that, or he just couldn't bear another minute with the old guy. Robert K S (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2008 (PDT)
When were we told that the Purge was island wide? --Jackdavinci 01:06, 26 May 2008 (PDT)
This looks like an interesting debate, but that does make sense, id say that they probably used canisters, but then wouldnt the DHARMA initiative have time to shoot at least some of the hostiles before getting gassed out if they saw people invading the barracks with gas masks? Its probable that perhaps the tempest station did release a huge amount of the gas at the purge, as we know that faraday was trying to deactivate the gas in the tempest station earlier in season 4, he also mentioned that everyone on the island would die if he did not activate it, but that brings the question of why and who has set the tempest station to release the toxic gas? did the people on the freighter somehow remotley activate it, and then change of plan decide to stop the gas activation? - I should put that question under the discussion of The Tempest and The Other Woman--Nzoomed 15:36, 26 May 2008 (PDT)

Guns?

I know this is nit-picky, but it's been bugging me for a while. What's with the little guns in the article's infobox? Yes, they're cute, but are they really appropriate - especially considering that the purge was carried out with lethal gas and not firearms? --Doc 13:46, 8 July 2008 (PDT)

The guns are just visuals that show it was a battle. The Others were carrying guns during the Purge btw. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 13:48, 8 July 2008 (PDT)
Are you proposing we use clip-art gas canisters instead? :) Dharmacakra Kevrock   talk  contribs   14:32, 8 July 2008 (PDT)
The guns come with Template:Battle. If you find a more appropriate picture for that template, add it. --Blueeagleislander 02:06, 9 July 2008 (PDT)

Jonestown

The feeling that DHARMA gave to me was most of the time very close the feeling I get from the Jonestown madness. After I saw the purge I think there is strong coincidence between the purge and jonestown.

though I only mean a shared feeling between two incidents (the real life Jonestown madness and the fictional purges), not anything further. Just check out the link. Doesn't it FEEL similar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Maybe DHARMA (or the others) gased themselves?

just some thoughts.

--Diskoerekto 08:26, 18 July 2008 (PDT)

Clean up?

  • As a suggested cleanup, rather than splitting the article into Ben's version and Mikhail's version, shouldn't we BEGIN with what we've actually seen first hand (namely Ben's flashback) as fact .. include some information about The Tempest and how it was used .. instead of simply quoting speech from the show?
  • I'm not sure what the policy is on cleaning up talk pages like this, but I think alot of the discussion is now ot of date .. I think this article needs some attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hoorset (talkcontribs) .
  • It's offiacal Lostpedia policy that talk page discussions and messages are not to be removed (unless it's vandalism). If it's appropriate, the talk page will be archived so the page is fresh and clean while the old page is stored and can be accessed whenever. However, it may not be necessary to arcive this page at the moment as it is not totally overloaded with discussions like other talk pages haha. Don't forget to sign your posts, Hoorset!--Mistertrouble189 20:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Backing off a hard 1992 date

I think there is enough reasonable doubt about a 1992 date to introduce some explanation and describe the timeline uncertainty in the article. The only thing we have to go on to place the purge in 1992 is Horace's "I've been dead for 12 years" line from Locke's dream. Information from dreams, while often corresponding to reality, should be treated as questionable (especially if it's the only piece of evidence and it produces a lot of problems otherwise). If the purge happened in 1992, it also throws a big wrench into a lot the things taking place after Rousseau arrived. Rousseau would've likely run into DHARMA people in those 3-4 years. She would've likely died in the purge. DHARMA would've still controlled the radio tower when her team went there. Ben would have to have been leading a double life (which is not impossible, but it's a pretty big rationalization). Alternatively, if it happened before Rousseau arrived and Horace's "12 years" line is considered untrustworthy, a lot of these things fall right into place. The producers have also failed to confirm 1992 when given an opportunity. In the January 29 official podcast, Damon and Carlton went out of their way to suggest that the purge could've happened before the early 1990s (when Kelvin arrived following the Gulf War). On The Fuselage, Gregg Nations was asked a direct question about the purge timeline and if 1992 was correct, and he purposely evaded giving an answer. So while I'm not saying that this means the purge necessarily wasn't in 1992, I think there is plenty of reason to back off of it as a hard date in the article and describe the ambiguity. -- Graft   talk   contributions  20:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm interesting points. Maybe we could put "believed to have occurred Dec. 12, 1992." --LOST-The Cartographer 23:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


More Battles=>

I believe we should make a section for the battles between the Dharma Intiative and the Others. I mean you can't call all the conflicts between the two groups as one big page about the Purge.

Timeline according to Kelvin

We saw Kelvin Inman in the Gulf War, circa 1991. According to what he told Desmond, he joined Dharma after he left the military. The 1992 date is absolutely consistent with this. It's possible that Rousseau never ran into Dharma because by that point their conflict with the Others had them confined to a very small area of the Island. Remember, Radzinsky was Kelvin's partner in the Hatch, and the two of them were the last Dharma staffers to be given the assignment. I suggest there's no ambiguity at all; the purge happened in '92. Agree? Disagree? --Emissary23 11:13, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support makes sense to me Hawkdeath 11:29, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

  • We've known this for a long time Emissary, but this whole thing was put into ambiguity last year when Darlton in a Podcast answered this very question, and they said that maybe Kelvin actually showed up after the Purge. --LOST-The Cartographer 14:53, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
    • Really? I don't listen to the podcasts--I prefer to let the show speak for itself. I suppose it's possible that the off-Island Others recruited Kelvin just to have another sucker to save the world, but it doesn't make sense to me. I doubt we will get confirmation this late in the game. The page will stay how it is, I guess, but I remain convinced that the date is 1992.--Emissary23 17:33, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
      • I agree with you, but Darlton said it so we put it up. Maybe the upcoming Lost Enyclopedia will have an answer. --LOST-The Cartographer 01:24, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting oppose I have doubts about the purge happening in '92. Some of the things I have thought about: Rousseau gave birth to Alex in 1988, Ben kidnapped Alex when she was still a baby, not when she was 3-4 years old. Ben was a Workman for Dharma at the time of the purge. So if he kidnapped Alex in 1989ish, and then killed his father in 1992, where Alex for those years? I highly doubt Ben would have left the baby with Others considering Charles seemed pretty intent on having Alex an Danielle killed. I think someone in Dharma would have noticed if tried to bring a baby back to the barracks. Also when would Ben have the time to go on a kidnapping mission with Ethan while still working for Dharma? It makes much more sense that the purge happened prior to Ben kidnapping Alex, allowing him to raise her in the Barracks free of the Dharma folk. Considering the only thing that '92 is derived from is John's dream of Horace, I say this, Horace did not say he died 12 years ago, only that he has been dead for 12 years. If someone has been dead for 20 years, it is also true that they have been dead for 12 years. --Kateneedstodie 05:26, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

  • Mikhail says he was recruited shortly before the purge, "11 years now" and "I was never a member. But everything else I told you was true. I moved into this station after the purge." on 12/9/04 making the purge after 12/9/93. We know it happened on Ben's birthday, 12/19. Kelvin joined Dharma sometime after the Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991), so that places the purge after 8/2/90 and probably after 2/29/91, but certainly not before 8/2/90. Ghost Horace says he's been dead 12 years on 12/29/2004 which would place the purge close to 12/29/92. The two most likely dates would seem to be either 12/19/92 (works with everything except Mikhail and maybe Alex) or 12/19/93 (works with everything except Horace and maybe Alex). If we assume it happens before 1988, that contradicts Kelvin, Mikhail, and Horace, the worst one being Kelvin since we know he came to the island after Alex's birth, and it seems unlikely he was recruited by Radzinsky after the purge. I tend to believe ghost Horace since he led Locke to the cabin map, and is referring specifically to the purge, whereas Mikhail was referring to when he came to the island, and we know that parts of his story were untrue or exaggerated.--Jackdavinci 06:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

1988

It has to have happened in 1988. I think that Danielle would have been aware that the DHARMA Initiative was there and I think DHARMA would have known that she was using their Radio tower. My theory is that Kelvin and Mikhail were hired by the Others and Radzinsky survived hence he was underground in the Swan.--OceanicLA X 19:04, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Page says Lost Encyclopedia claims 1987, but I don't see any place this date is referenced. The article on The Purge says approximately 15 years after 1973, which would be 1988 unless there's another article that pins the date down more specifically. --Cap'n Calhoun 04:54, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
The show is the ultimate source for canon, and the show said that it was twelve years before 2004. This was according to the dream that Locke had in which Horace appeared. --LOST-The Cartographer 23:03, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
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