Talk: The Man in Black

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==Cleanup==
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I have tagged this discussion for cleanup.  The talk page is quite long.  I've already archived the [[/rename|rename]] discussion, but much of the other content probably needs to be done as well.  Please feel free to create a [[/archive1|sub-page]] and archive discussions that are out-dated.  {{User:Jabrwocky7/sig}} - 19:04, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I have moved every section that has not been edited since the end of June 2010 to [[/archive2|this sub-page]].  Please refer to that page and resurrect the text if you wish to argue a "retired" subject.  Thanks.  --{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 17:18, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

==Rename==
The past discussions about renaming this page have been [[/rename|archived]] here.  If further discussion is required, please do so below, but let's not re-hash old arguments.  It's my opinion, based on a conversation with [[Gregg Nations]], and references in the show, that this article remain named "Man in black".  He's commonly known by this name, the creative staff refer to him this way, and we can easily create redirects for the other nicknames given to this character.  {{User:Jabrwocky7/sig}} - 17:46, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} I'm removing the rename tag until some comes up with a new, unargued option.--{{User:Gaarmyvet/sig}} 14:57, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
{{Disagree}} Name Samuel never mentioned in show, writers seemed to go out of their way to leave him nameless, name on the back of a chair does not prove anything. --[[User:Dharmafolk|Dharmafolk]] 20:20, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
*I agree, he was meant to be nameless. It shouldn't be changed. --Pexxoum 20:55, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
**{{Agree}} It seems to me that he was called Samuel in all aspects but the final cuts of the show itself. --{{User:Sam McPherson/sig}} 20:51, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
***{{no}} In the show itself, the name Samuel was never used so it should not be renamed in the wiki. The name Man in Black was used, so it should remain. --{{User:Vahnx/sig}} August 3, 2010
::{{no}} The final cut is all that really matters. Heres a scenario the producers decided that in the finale James will die, its in the script, everyone knows, blah blah blah you get the point. Last second they decide they dont want to kill off a fan favorite so they leave it out, should we consider James to be dead, no. IMO the actual show is the end of any argument reagarding his name. I feel like they left it out for a reason they wanted him nameless i believe they have even said this. Unless its endorsed by the producers then no if so i might say yes. --{{User:Czygan84/sig}} 20:58, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
:::{{reply}} Technically, the auction is an official source, since it's props from the set. The back of Welliver's chair could have just as easily said "Man in Black." --{{User:Sam McPherson/sig}} 21:01, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
::::{{reply}} I dont consider this a prop but if it was as we all know props are completely unreliable (see:Bentham passport) but i digress my point is the producers could have easily put this in the show 1 billion times over but they didnt i believe they did so for a reason. --{{User:Czygan84/sig}} 21:05, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
: {{no}} New evidence proves the creators planned to name him Samuel. In the end though, they didn't. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 21:08, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
*{{reply}} No, this new evidence proves that the name Samuel went PAST the planning stages, considering that the name was on the back of the chair used on set. EDITING is the only reason we haven't heard the name Samuel on the show, it seems. --{{User:Sam McPherson/sig}} 21:10, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
**{{reply}}If the name made it even as far as the script but the show purposely omitted it, they planned to use it but chose not to. Similarly, had Sawyer not said in {{ep|6x14}} that the cave crossed out Kate's name, we couldn't say it did. We could only note under trivia that the producers once planned for it to. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 21:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
*{{Reply}} The only thing it proves is that the crew members referred to the Man in Black as Samuel. The only definitive proof we could have that his name is Samuel would be a reference on the show itself. --[[User:Dharmafolk|Dharmafolk]] 21:20, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
**{{reply}}Flawed argument. We have used production names before. Man in Black is a moniker that itself was never mentioned on the show. --{{User:Sam McPherson/sig}} 21:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
***{{reply}} It was, at the end of {{ep|6x09}}. Realize we need a higher standard for MIB's name than some random background character. If no one says Nurse Kondracki's name but we think that's her name - sure, let's include it. With MIB though, the show went to great lengths to hide his name when they could have easily revealed it. 
***If a DVD deleted scene shows Claudia naming him "Samuel," we'd ignore that right? That filmed scene wouldn't be canon. But we count a ''chair'' as canon? --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 21:28, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
*{{no}} Just to offer my two cents, it seems apparent to me the creators/writers wanted MiB to remain nameless. If it was important to their story, they could and would have made it a point to provide MiB a name for all to see.  They didn't, which tells me they wanted MiB to remain nameless. We are recording their story as it was told, right?  Then leave it as MiB.  

--{{User:Just Sayin'/sig}} 22:16, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
* This [http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2010/08/man-in-black-confirmed-as-samuel.html link] should say enough to suggest that the article should remain as it is. --[[User:Dharmafolk|Dharmafolk]] 22:23, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
::Well, that tells us all we need to know really. If he was never referred to as Samuel in the scripts, then it's not his name. Samuel was always his casting call name, we knew that from the start didn't we? Yes, The Man in Black started out as a fan name, but before the season started I remember Darlton say we're supposed to call him that. Then the name was actually used in the show by Hurley, and just like "The Tailies" we consider it the canonical name given in the show. Plus, the fact that Claudia never even named him tells us that he had no name. Why this whole can of worms had to be opened up again is beyond me though. I thought the issue was as dead as Jack Shephard. But turns out it's more like John Locke, who just keeps popping back up.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 23:26, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

== Rename, Again ==

{{agree}} Since the producers have confirmed that his true name is "Samuel", I think that Samuel should be the title. Its the official name, regardless of a more common "nickname". Just like Libby's article title is [[Elizabeth "Libby" Smith]] or [[Hurley]] redirecting to [[Hugo "Hurley" Reyes]].--[[User:Gonzalo84|Gonzalo84]] 18:42, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
*When did they confirm it? So far the only source I've seen say that is Kristen, and she is, quite honestly, not the most reputable person when it comes to Lost-related matters. --[[User:Bish-Fiscuit|Bish-Fiscuit]] 23:02, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
*{{disagree}} The source is Kristin... I'm not sure we should trust her. Plus, Samuel was the name used in casting the role, so there may be some confusion there. I think it's worthy trivia, but I don't feel comfortable renaming it without stronger evidence. [[User:LeoChris|LeoChris]] 23:11, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
*{{disagree}} Kristin was wrong. Watch the video where she revealed Samuel was his name in that post-finale Q&A. She answered fan questions from the audience and got answers wrong time and again. She said Samuel was the MIB's name. No that was for the casting call. She said that John Terry voiced the "help me" line in the Cabin. No that was Carlton Cuse. She said that line happened in the same episode we saw Christian on the rocking chair - no they were different episodes. She said it was John Terry's eye in the cabin, no it was [[Simon_Elbling]]. This is just the stuff i remember her getting wrong in that ONE VIDEO. Seriously i would trust Kristen as far as i could throw her --{{User:Anfield Fox/sig}} 23:50, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
*{{disagree}} If the producters actually do confirm it, maybe.  But a rumor from a gossip website isn't remotely canon.  --[[User:Minderbinder|Minderbinder]] 17:30, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
*{{disagree}} NO RENAME : We have had confirmation that Samuel was used for casting breakdown purposes only, to avoid massive spoilers during casting. The reason it was used on Titus' chair is unknown, but at no point was the character named "Samuel". It was always "Man in Black". --{{User:plkrtn/sig}} 23:43, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
*{{disagree}} Per a conversation with [[Gregg Nations]] at the [[Lost Weekend 2010]], and a follow-up email today to [[User:LostpediaAdmin|Admin]] (after the DarkUFO chairback auction post), this character is named "Man In Black".  Here's an the contents of the email (posted with permission from Gregg):
{{quote|text=On Aug 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Greggory Nations wrote:<br/><br/>Kevin,<br/><br/>Don't know if you've seen the posting on DarkUFO, but as part of the auction, they are offering the chairback used for Titus Welliver on the set.  On the chairback is what fans are thinking is the Man in Black's character name: "Samuel."<br/><br/>That is wrong and was never intended to be his name.  Here's a little clarification on the name.<br/><br/>The Man in Black was always referred to  in the scripts as the "Man in Black."  Damon and Carlton had to cast an actor to play the role, and when preparing the casting breakdown, they knew they had to include a name.  They couldn't call him "Man in Black" because that would be a big red flag for fans and would reveal too much too early.  So they told me to use the name "Samuel" since it was only for the casting breakdown.<br/><br/>Who knows why production used "Samuel" as opposed to "Man in Black" for the chairback.  Titus didn't know his character's name since he never was named, and he may have told someone in production the name used for the casting breakdown and sides.  (The breakdown also listed him as a corporate raider, and that obviously isn't what his true job was.)  But it's just a placeholder name and was never meant to his real name.<br/><br/>If you could pass this along to everyone, I would appreciate it.  I don't want fans reading into it when there's really nothing there.  Thank you!<br/><br/>Gregg}}
:So there you have it.  I hope this puts this issue to rest.  {{User:Jabrwocky7/sig}} - 01:12, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
{{agree}}On the German DVD-Box it is written very clearly (translated): "Senet - The game Jacob played with his brother Samuel..." I don't know if the English DVD-Box speaks of "Samuel", too, but the German box was released in December 2010 - after the mail from Gregg Nations. And if the DVD is no offical source I don't what else should be one, even if it is the German one.[[User:Anubis2705|Anubis2705]] 02:10, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

{{Disagree}}Things like the text on boxes and news releases rarely if ever come from the producers of a show.  They are normally produced by marketers, who often know nothing about the product they are selling.--{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 02:56, May 25, 2011 (UTC)
:{{agree}}Normaly I would agree, but the text is obviously from someone who knew what he wrote. I can't compare it to the US-Box, but the German text is very detailed and why should a marketer come up with a name, who was only in the casting call and the chair on his own. Someone who doesn't know what he is writing about, would not use this name - espacially in Germany! I am German and you can trust me about that. But I also see that it absolutly impossibly to discuss this issue with the most of the users here, because it seems that you didn't want the name from the very beginning. It is at least a little curious that other matters concerning the Man in Black/Samuel/Jacob's Brother aren't questioned any longer. Christian for example: we only have the word of MiB himself, who is not a very trustworthy person. But nearly everybody seems to accept that he was Christian, although there are three scenes which are not fitting this claim. [[User:Anubis2705|Anubis2705]] 21:56, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

:: We've renamed the character's page multiple times, and if his actual name were Samuel, we'd gladly use it. But it isn't. That German text is not "obviously from someone who knew what he wrote". Nothing whatever suggests that the distributor responsible for that copy knew what he was talking about. Meanwhile, the ''man who wrote {{ep|6x09}}'' emailed us and specifically dismissed "Samuel" as just a casting call name. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 22:25, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

== Rename to Brother ==

If throughout MiB's life, he was always called 'Brother' by Jacob and 'Your brother' by Mother, shouldn't that be his name, cos that's what it always was. And we've named Mother, Mother (Jacob and MiB called her Mother), so shouldn't the same rule apply for MiB? {{Unsigned|Julietfan2626}}
*No, this is an encyclopedia.  The producers call him the "Man in Black," so that's his name for record.  BTW, I like "Brother," but it's not about what we ''like''.--{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 17:00, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

== Picture ==

He has a season 6 promo picture just like everyone else, so he should have it used in his profile picture. The picture we have now is someone's opinion on what the mib's most important forms are. Some people may think Alex and Christian are important too, so they should be on the picture too. So we should use -- {{User:Julietfan2626/sig}} 20:52, October 24, 2010 (UTC) 

Helloo? {{User:Julietfan2626/sig}} 13:40, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

{{Agree}} --{{User:Julietfan2626/sig}} 21:51, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
[[File:LockeS6.jpg|thumb]]

{{Agree}} I always think that Christian and Yemi's form are important too, so I like your idea. As nobody disagree, just change it.[[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] 14:24, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

{{Disagree}} The guy spent two thousand years on the island. He had Locke's form for only the last two weeks. Whoever wants to include Christian and Alex in the main pic can argue for that, but their failure to build a consensus doesn't mean everyone must settle for an insufficient pic. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 05:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

{{Agree}} Simply put, I believe that official promotional pictures should always be used, when possible, over a (composite and fan-made!!!) bunch of screenshots. Also, in terms of actual screentime, there is no question that MIB was more often seen as Locke than in any of his other forms, with the possible (but doubtful) exception of Smokey. --[[User:LeoChris|LeoChris]] 06:18, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
: We should use promo pics whenever they are appropriate. They usually are. In this case, however, the promo pic showcases Terry O'Quinn's season 6 role rather than the Man in Black's 6-year character. Similarly, if the show inexplicably recast Kate in the final season, a promotional pic would show Liv Tyler portraying her. We would not use this image for Kate's article.
: We should use a composite image for the Man in Black because he is a composite character. We should use a fan-made composite image because we have no other composite image. Though the Man in Black surely got the most lines in his Locke form, his Locke form does not make up the majority of his life, his appearances or (maybe most importantly) this article. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 08:57, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

::Yeah, I totally called Liv Tyler and Evangeline Lily playing [https://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-jackson/the-hobbit-casting-update/10150286515141558 the same sort of character]. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 01:17, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
:::Another of your talents revealed. She does look similar to Evangeline! Any other predictions? :D--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 12:10, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
::::I'm calling it now: [[Jermaine "Scooter" Smith]] will be the next Bond girl. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 14:42, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

{{Disagree}} A fan made is better. Just like Balk said, he spent two weeks in Locke's body. --[[User:Station7|Station7]] 10:56, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

If it's fan made then it has to show all his forms - so Alex, Christian, Isabella, Yemi, Walt (possibly), Smoke, Mib, Locke, Spider - because it can't be someone's personal opinion on what is main and you always say things about personal opinions on here being wrong. So no, either that or the promo. {{Unsigned|Julietfan2626}}
: We certainly can use opinion. We use opinion all the time, when it obeys facts and consensus. Choosing a character's main photo actually must use opinion, even in simply picking one promo pic over another. The opinion here is as Baker explains it below. Again, if you think Christian or the spiders matter enough to merit a place in the pic, argue for it. If you are right, you will convince us. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 07:53, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

{{disagree}} - Balk makes a very good point. The composite image shows the three forms MIB is most well known and recognised as. Since learning MIB was Christian on the Island we never saw him play that part again, or in fact since learning MIB was even a character. If we want to argue about the form he spent the most time in on-screen, in terms of episodes the smoke monster would win. The fact that the image is fan-made isn't a problem, because any screencap we use would be cropped and altered in the same way. In actual fact even any official promo would be altered by a fan from its original state. At least it is screens from the show and not fan drawn art.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 13:44, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

{{disagree}} - It was good as it was --[[User:LOST-Hunter61|LOST-Hunter61]] 06:04, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

Why was the dispute tag removed earlier? This is far from settled.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 20:11, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

{{no}} I strongly disagree with this change, he is not solely John Locke.  As Balk says opinion plays a major role on this site and imo (and i would assume many other peoples opinions) the three most recognizable forms for the MIB on the show were Locke, the Smoke Monster and his original form.  The only other argument for another character that may have a strong backing is including Christian, as he commonly used that form and it was an important part of the show.  If we were to have to narrow it down to one character then I would feel it should be his original form but again i think that would be a disservice because his Locke and SM forms were important to the show.  Btw saying one could argue to include Alex, the spider, Isabella, etc is absurd as all of those forms had very small roles in the show. --{{User:Czygan84/sig}} 20:06, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

[[User:Martingen|Martingen]] offers this choice. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 21:07, January 8, 2011 (UTC) [[Image:Monster-forms-main.jpg|300px]]

{{Agree}} It looks good, and shows us all the characters.--[[User:Station7|Station7]] 21:29, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

{{Neutral}} I still think we shoudn't include Alex or Yemi as it really starts to look ridiculous and I think a lot of people would agree the roles of his that played an important or crucial role were Smoke, Locke and Christian.  His Alex form should absolutely not be on here because then you could argue to put Emeka and the spider, I mean Alex(SM) was in one episode. --{{User:Czygan84/sig}} 16:04, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

{{Agree}} Too many characters isn't also good. Yemi, Alex, the spider and Isabella, too many isn't good.--[[User:Station7|Station7]] 17:26, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

{{Neutral}} It's good, but I think the order should be change a little bit. "Original form > Black Smoke > Locke >  Christian > Yemi > Alex".[[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] 10:59, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

== Took out a clear fan theory ==

I deleted the following text that is obviously an unfounded fan theory: 
*There is the possibility that the Man in Black's name is Anti-Jacob; considering in Ancient Roman times, twins would share a name, but one twin would have "Anti" in front of his/ her name (So it would be like saying "Not- Jacob")
I can't imagine there will be too much resistance to my deleting this, but if there is, feel free to discuss. [[User:Gefred7112|Gefred7112]] 01:44, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
Well if it's true, it's an interesting thought (I never knew they did that), but it shouldn't have been presented as a theory on the article.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 01:54, December 25, 2010 (UTC)

==Mobisodes Not Included?==

In the section where it says "Season(s)" it crosses out MP, but it shouldn't because he was in at least one, and maybe two.  He was in the one where Arzt tells Sun and Jin not to go to the caves then he is scared by the Smoke Monster sounds.  And in ''So It Begins'' Christian is most likely the Smoke Monster. Can someone change that? I don't know how.

--[[User:GrinningTurtle|GrinningTurtle]] 01:48, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

== Am I crazy? ==

I swear a while ago I saw an article here about how the smoke monster was suppose to be some mythical creature. There was a picture of the section of that script and it was crossed out and "Not yet" was written on it. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Can anyone let me know if this was real and where the article is?

--{{SUBST:User:X66x66/sig}} 04:04, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't know of any page with that on it. The only page I can think which referred to the smoke monster as such would have been [[cerberus]] which now redirects to here. Never seen any script extracts like that on here before though.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 13:09, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

== Centric Mobisode ==

Should we add "So It Begins" as his centric mobisode? Or it consider as Christian's centric mobisode?[[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] 12:35, April 15, 2011 (UTC)
:Well if we're to add it to any of those character's pages it should be MIB, as it isn't Christian. However I believe we came to the conclusion that it was Vincent-centric, especially as it starts from his POV literally.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 16:15, April 15, 2011 (UTC)
*I know, but actually in Neil's page, "The Adventure of Hurley and Frougurt" is listed as his centric mobisode, although it starts and ends from Hurley's POV. Also, in Amelia's page, "The Envelope" is listed as her centric mobisode, although it starts and ends from Juliet's POV. And the same thing happen in Ethan's page and Christian's page too. [[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] 01:25, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

:If those pages are wrong, we should fix them. Amelia's is definitely wrong. The other two are less certain, but I'd say they're wrong too. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 08:27, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

In all cases except Amelia, the mobisode heading template lists all those characters as being centric. I will remove it from Amelia's article if it's still there (looks like Mr. Fame beat me to it :D), but as for the others you'll have to open a discussion about whether or not they are centric characters if you wish.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 12:26, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

:Some of the debate over Amelia was over [[Talk:Portal:Supporting_Characters#Amelia|here]]. Over there, besides also arguing that {{ep|mx10}} was not Ethan centric, I even argued that the whole concept of centricity as we know it can't really apply to mobisodes, though I still think we should use it anyway. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 13:03, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

== Insufficient Evidence for Spider Claim ==

It is my opinion that there is no significant evidence to support the claim that the spider that bit Nikki was the smoke monster. 

The primary evidence cited for this claim is a podcast, which could under certain circumstances be considered reliable, but the context in which this suggestion was made was the question-answering portion of the podcast. This segment is known for being largely tongue-in-cheek, full of joke answers and otherwise deliberately misleading "facts". It strikes me as being well within the realm of probability that C&C would be pleased to inject a bit of Smokey mystique into a much-maligned episode, and one that really has nothing to do with the primary storyline anyway. As we know, 'Nina' and 'Pablo' were only there to fill space on the beach while the main characters were occupied at the Hydra. 

Aside from the nature of the podcast and the relevant segment within it, there's the total lack of support for this claim within the episode itself. It was established that the spider released a powerful pheromone that would attract mates from all over. (Arzt: That is uh... Latrodectus regina. Very dangerous. They call her the Medusa spider. Her pheromones are very strong, one whiff and every male of the species would be here in seconds.")

That is exactly what occurs in the episode.

At the very least, there should be a separation on the Smoke Monster / MiB page that differentiates between actual and theoretical/possible manifestations of Smokey. 

--[[User:Z054J|Z054J]] 12:21, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

: Here's the podcast transcript:

Carlton Cuse: It's from KBlueLinus: "Monster Forms". Um, basically, this person wants to know if you will comment on what the significance is of these certain things that we've seen on the show, whether they're the Monster, whether they're humans, animals, apparitions. What exactly they are.<br>
Damon Lindelof: So, you're gonna say the name, and I say "monster", "apparition"...<br>
Carlton Cuse:You, you can...<br>
Damon Lindelof:...or...<br>
Carlton Cuse:Human...<br>
Damon Lindelof:...or "human".<br>
Carlton Cuse:...dead...<br>
Damon Lindelof:Yeah. Ok. or whatever...<br>
Carlton Cuse:Whatever, whatever. Its significance, ok? So—<br>
Damon Lindelof:It's just word association.<br>
Carlton Cuse:Word association.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Ok.<br>
Carlton Cuse:Ok, you ready?<br>
Damon Lindelof:Yes.<br>
Carlton Cuse:Ben's mother, Emily.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Apparition.<br>
Carlton Cuse:The wild boar of Sawyer.<br>
Damon Lindelof: Animal.<br>
'''Carlton Cuse:Spider that paralyzed Nikki.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Monster.<br>'''
Carlton Cuse:Bird of Hurley.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Oh, I'm not gonna comment on that.<br>
Carlton Cuse:[laughs] Dave.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Uhh... figment of imagination-slash-apparition.<br>
Carlton Cuse:Ok. Yemi.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Monster.<br>
Carlton Cuse:Sayid, Mikhail's cat, Nadia.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Woah, wait.<br>
Carlton Cuse:The cat!<br>
Damon Lindelof:The cat.<br>
Carlton Cuse:The cat was named Nadia.<br>
Damon Lindelof:Oh, animal. And coincidence.

: That's an unambigous, serious answer. Later, they crack a few jokes ("Jack's an apparition"), and even in those cases, they're careful to point out that they are joking. Nothing about their answer suggests that they're joking about the spiders or that they consider the question an invitation to joke. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 13:16, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

* I have never believed the statement that the spider was a manifestation of MiB.  It should be noted that, per [[Lostpedia:Canon]], episodes are canon, podcasts are ''semi-canon'' and the [[Lost Encyclopedia]] is canon.  I cancelled my order for the encyclopedia after the second notice that delivery would be delayed.  Does the Encyclopedia address the issue?--{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 15:14, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

:I suppose we call the podcasts semi-canon because parts of them are canon and parts are just two guys talking about irrelevant things. But we actually always accept Damon and Carlton's explanations as canon. As for the ''Lost Encyclopedia'' - yes, our [[Lostpedia:Canon]] page ''says'' that it's canon, but as I noted on that talk page, we marked it as such based on dubious info before its publication. Post-publication, we've actually dedicated much of our article on in to documenting and correcting its errors. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 15:31, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

:Point well taken.  I flipped through the Encyclopedia at Books-a-Million.  (It didn't take long for it to show up on ''those'' shelves.)  I'm glad I never spent money on it.  As an encyclopedia, it was uh... slick.  Conclusion:  It was little more than a marketing tool and a source of a little more income for the producers.  Maybe it's time to re-evaluate the canonicity of the Encyclopedia.  IMO, our product is far superior.  Digression over.  I never had as much faith in the podcasts as a lot of others did.  I AM NOT suggesting we amend the page.--{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 16:18, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

== Man in Black/Christian helping Locke in 1867 (or earlier) ==

Hi everybody. I'm rewatching Lost and I came up with a question. I tried to look for the answer in Lostpedia (which has been my pocket guide since season 2 was airing), but I couldn't find it, so I thought I'd create this talk.

At the end of 5x05 "This Place is Death", Locke's group is flashing through time and they end up in an unknown period, where Daniel stays with a dying Charlotte, and Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles go help Locke find the well to go down there and turn the wheel. While he's going down, there's another flash and they're taken to some time before 1867 (because the Statue is still up). I suppose Locke, as he fell down the well and ended up in the wheel chamber, also travelled to this time.

But Christian/Man in Black is there! Why is he there? Ok, the MiB was "helping" Locke, but why is he in the form of Christian? Christian's body only got on the island in 2004, so MiB couldn't take his form before that, right?

I was thinking on a few explanations:

1. The MiB was also travelling through time. Sounds unlikely, as we don't see any hint of that anywhere else.

2. Only during that flash, Locke went to a different time while the rest of the group flashed to 1867 (or before). That's a possibility, but then the question is "Why did he flash to a different time?" It'd be almost like the island wanted him to help the MiB.

What do you guys think of that? I haven't seen any post related to this, so I may be missing something. Pardon me if this has been discussed before.
[[User:Fabianokm|Fabianokm]] 22:36, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

: You should [http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Special:CreateBlogPage|start a blog] about that. This page is just for discussing edits to the article. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 10:14, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

: Thank for the tip. I just blogged this question. Sorry I misplaced it. [[User:Fabianokm|Fabianokm]] 12:06, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

== Canon name confirmed ==

http://tv.ign.com/articles/118/1184006p1.html  ...Rofl.  Well, at least it makes for amusing trivia.  --[[User:NeutraVega|NeutraVega]] 14:09, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
:Oh thank god, I thought you were about to argue a case for why we should adopt it as his official name. TBH he does look like a Barry.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 20:31, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
:: Well...lol, I ''was'' serious about the trivia bit.  Do you want to add it, or should I later? --[[User:NeutraVega|NeutraVega]] 15:52, July 26, 2011 (UTC)
:: Ah, nevermind.  Someone already added it.  [[User:NeutraVega|NeutraVega]] 15:54, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

== MIB can't morph once he is Evillocke? ==

I am 80% certain that at some point in season six, the MIB told someone that he can no longer appear in the guise of any human other than Locke.  And I am 100% certain that he told Sawyer that he cannot travel to Hydra Island without a boat (i.e., as the smoke monster).

Am I remembering this correctly?  If so, these points should probably be mentioned on this page, since they would indicate that the MIB underwent a radical change when he became Evillocke.

Also, I am wondering if the writers ever addressed the obvious continuity errors that result if these claims were true.  After Ajira 316 landed on Hydra Island, the MIB travelled to the barracks (on the Main Island) and appeared to Sun and Lapidus in Christian's body (which was corporeal, as he handed a photograph to them), and then traveled back to Hydra Island.  Later, he appeared to Ben in Alex's body.  I suppose this can all be explained by saying that the MIB was lying, and he really was able to fly to Hydra Island as smoke, but that seems odd. {{User:Lawrence King/sig}} 19:15, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

:I think he is permanently in Locke's body.  The travel question is a little trickier.  When Sawyer asked him about traveling to Hydra Island, he answered with a question, "If I could travel over water...," or something like that.  He never actually SAID he couldn't.--{{User:Gaarmyvet/Sig}} 19:52, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

:It was Ilana who said he can't morph. To Ben "he's stuck that way". As for the apparent error, well I think it was mentioned in the Lost Encyclopedia that he appeared as Christian before he was found on Hydra Island as Locke. We can't be sure he never had a boat that was never found as a means to cross over from the Barracks after speaking to Sun and Frank. As for what he told Sawyer, he said "If I could do that, do you think I would still be on ''this'' Island?"--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] 21:39, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

:This backs up my theory that the MiB isn't actually Jacob's brother, but just an evil entity of black smoke that took the form of Jacob's brother to be able to survive in the outside environment (rain mainly, as water is his weakness). Anyway, back the the discussion, I thought that the black smoke took the form of John Locke, but when Jacob died, he was stuck in the last human form he was in (John), but because he was always the entity of black smoke, he was still able to transform from John and Smoke. :) {{User:Julietfan2626/sig}} 22:12, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Ilana said he was stuck as Locke in season 6, after Jacob's death, so there's no error there. As for traveling as smoke, he was lying to Sawyer ''regardless''of whether he could actually travel as smoke. His statement said two things - one, I can't zoom to Hydra as smoke, and two, this limit has prevented me from leaving the island. The second part was false: Jacob, the candidates and the Heart kept him from leaving no matter what form of transport he had. So we needn't believe the first part of the statement either. Later, he gave a different reason for why he traveled as a man rather than as smoke - he just like feeling human. {{crossref|6x16}} {{Unsigned|BalkOfFame}}


==Shouldn't there be two seperate entries, one for "Brother" and one for "The Man in Black"?==
Brother died, right? And the evil black smoke took his body (and memories too I suppose, just like he did with Locke many many years later), but the Man in Black page makes it seem like they are the same person.

I though the black smoke was just an evil entity which needed a body to be able to survive in the outside environment or whatever. Is this not the case? --[[User:Malcolm David Kelley|Malcolm David Kelley]] ([[User talk:Malcolm David Kelley|talk]]) 08:57, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

:That's one interpretation, but this article (and the rest of Lostpedia) says that the Man in Black was Jacob's brother, who entered the Heart and turned into the smoke monster, leaving his original body behind. Some facts supporting this include Jacob and the Man's inability to kill each other (Mother prevented the two brothers from killing each other) and the Man in Black's claim that Jacob took his humanity (this makes sense under the article's current interpretation, but it makes none under the other, not even as a lie). --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 13:31, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

::That's true yeah, but maybe The Man in Black (after being made by Jacob and taking Brother's body/memories) had no prior knowledge of being anything but a man. Maybe he/it always thought he was human, until Jacob "took away his humanity". And we all know MIB was a manipulator and a liar, he did anything he could to get The Candidates trust, maybe he thought it was better to tell Sawyer that Jacob "took away his humanity" just to turn him against Jacob. He probably wouldn't want to say that he's the incarnation of evil. I just don't think it should be set in stone, since they probably left it ambiguous on purpose.

::Nice youtube videos by the way :D --[[User:Malcolm David Kelley|Malcolm David Kelley]] ([[User talk:Malcolm David Kelley|talk]]) 17:00, August 11, 2012 (UTC)
:::Thanks! --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 23:24, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

It should also be noted that MIB had the same desire to leave the Island as Jacob's brother. Of course, this could be from his memories too but anything you say which can be considered evidence of them being the same person could be argued that it's simply MIB using Jacob's brother's memories. I don't have my copy of the Lost Encyclopedia at hand right now but I'm pretty sure the article in there is written is if they are the same person. I know not everything in that book is 100% accurate but the writers of the show were consulted and would have explained that the two should have separate entries if that was their intention.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] ([[User talk:Baker1000|talk]]) 18:29, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

: The [[Across the Sea audio commentary]] also helps clarify things. Damon and Carlton refer to Jacob's brother as "the Man in Black" and "the Boy in Black." They refer to the rush of smoke from the cave as "the Man in Black's transformation into his non-corporal smoke form." And Damon has this long bit where he describes how the episode represents a flashback for the Man in Black, getting the audience to sympathize and understand him --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 23:24, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

::And also, back in {{ep|6x01}} MIB (as Locke) tells Ben he "wants to go home". Again, you could say he's just using the memories and telling porky pies, but as I said you could use that to explain anything MIB said.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] ([[User talk:Baker1000|talk]]) 00:11, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

== Killed by Jack or Jack/Kate?  ==

{{I|I=6x17-JacobAllusion.png|w=250|a=right|c=The Man in Black's death was filmed similarly to Jacob's.}}A couple editors have tried removing Kate's name from the cause of death, so maybe we should discuss this.

Kate shoots the Man in Black, and then Jack kicks him off the cliff. He is alive until he is kicked off, but Kate and Jack both work to kill him. Between them, Kate actually deserves more credit - if Jack didn't kick him off the cliff, MIB still seems like he would have died from the gunshot. 

Kate's role particularly matters because MIB's death is filmed to parallel Jacob's. Jack kicks him off the cliff much as MIB kicked Jacob into the fire. We don't say MIB killed Jacob - Ben killed Jacob, and then MIB just kicked the dying body. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 10:40, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

*This question bothered me too. As I see, when MIB kicked Jacob, he was still alive. So, I think he was burnt to death, and not dying from the injury caused by Ben. Also, when Jack kicked MIB off the cliff, he was still alive. [[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] ([[User talk:Sroczynski|talk]]) 11:51, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Jacob was alive right after being stabbed, but we are told in all other ways that it's Ben's kill. MIB could not kill Jacob directly and needed a loophole. Jacob's last thoughts, according to Miles, were of hoping Ben wold not stab him. Even Ben, when pleading for his life, never claimed that Jacob survived the stabbing. 
Whether or not MIB deserves credit in Jacob's death, Ben surely does. If MIB's own death is analogous, then Kate deserves credit in that death. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 19:42, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

:I was going to put this to a vote too, because I couldn't be bothered to edit war. The way I see it, it was a fatal gunshot wound. MIB had admitted defeat when he got shot, knowing it was going to kill him. Jack only helped speed things up and it was done for dramatic effect. I didn't even realize it paralleled Ben/MIB killing Jacob. That was Ben's kill, the show tells us it was on numerous occasions. Ben pleading with Ilana is one such occasion, in which it is made abundantly clear who the show considers as Jacob's killer. If we're going to say Ben killed Jacob, we should at least include Kate's name on this page as it is clear the writers were alluding to that Jacob scene with the way MIB met his end.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] ([[User talk:Baker1000|talk]]) 00:55, December 
12, 2012 (UTC)

== How do we know it is the Man in Black ==
Seconds before the freighter blows up, "Christian" tells Michael he can go now. How could this have been the Man in Black? The freighter was off the island and the Man in Black can't leave the island.--[[User:Orcward silence|Orcward silence]] ([[User talk:Orcward silence|talk]]) 08:09, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

:The whisperers couldn't leave the Island either, but they appeared on the freighter. And Jin, in the water near the freighter, was within the Island's "radius." 
:But's it's ambiguous, so the article doesn't state for sure that it is the Man in Black on the freighter. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 13:36, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 
*Sorry, I'm confused. Did they ever mentioned that the whispers couldn't leave the Island? [[User:Sroczynski|Sroczynski]] ([[User talk:Sroczynski|talk]]) 17:13, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

:That comes up in Hugo and Michael's conversation. Hurley says, "You're stuck on the Island aren't you?" and then "And...there're others out here like you, aren't there? That's what the whispers are?" --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 09:34, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


== Esau? ==
I've always used, and heard in my circles, the name 'Esau' used to refer to the Man in Black (in reference to the biblical Jacob and Esau). I've seen it in several places on the internet as well. I'm wondering why this particular fan-nickname didn't make it onto the page.
[[User:OmegaX123|OmegaX123]] ([[User talk:OmegaX123|talk]]) 18:18, July 13, 2013 (UTC)
:I don't know, but there's nothing to say it can't be put on there now. I vaguely remember seeing the name a few times.--[[User:Baker1000|Baker1000]] ([[User talk:Baker1000|talk]]) 19:28, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

:[[Esau]] is still a redirect for the page. I think we had it on the page itself as one point, but we also had a long list of random names there too. The problem was that everyone just put down whatever name they liked personally, even if there was no wider use. Right now, the page pretty much only lists names that we can connect with a source, such as a cast member or a popular website. --{{User:BalkOfFame/sig}} 13:14, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

== Doesn't the Smoke Monster predate MiB? ==

I'm rewatching the whole series of Lost for the first time since it all ended and, having just finished the episode "Dead is Dead", I'm left wondering something. The article on this wiki seems to clearly imply that the smoke monster is created by Jacob's brother falling into the heart of the island but isnt it considerably more likely that the smoke monster existed long before Jacob or his brother were even born and that it merely took his brothers shape, just as he does Locke and so many others?

What specifically has me thinking this is the ancient Egyptian mural Ben sees below the temple. It shows an ancient Egyptian god, most likely Anubis, facing off against what is clearly the smoke monster. Now, keeping in mind that this wiki states MiB is born during the classical roman era circa 753 BC - 476 AD, depictions of Anubis would predate that by thousands of years.--[[User:CreepingDeath00|CreepingDeath00]] ([[User talk:CreepingDeath00|talk]]) 01:19, August 17, 2016 (UTC)