Talk:The Man Behind the Curtain

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german version - MESSIAH!

In the german version, Candle says also, they are " awaiting the new Messiah" in the Orientation Video. It's really clear, but not mentioned in the US-Version.

More weird images from the Jacob scene...

So I cannot get this episode off of my mind and have watched the Jacob scene, probably way too many times, looking for any clues. This could be nothing, but right after Locke is telling Ben that "he knows nothing", and right before he starts to walk out, Locke looks down at Jacob's chair. As the camera pans down, I thought I saw what looked like a tail move out of screen. Here are the images I pulled, it was only in three frames. Look at the bottom left of the images:

? 1.jpg

? 2.jpg

? 3.jpg

It may be nothing and I might be crazy, but I just thought I'd put it up.--Duvfeatherdraven 00:55, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

  • Well, if Jacob is invisible, and the writers felt that it was necessary for us to see the creepy painting of the dog for as long as we saw it ... there's no reason why Jacob's dog wouldn't be invisible as well. Though I don't think we can do any photographic tail comparisons between that and Vincent. :) Frankie Viturello 09:37, 11 May 2007 (PDT)
  • Something definitely moves at the bottom left of the chair during that shot. I don't necessarily think it's a tail - it could just be a cable as a blooper. Worth asking for the podcast? --Sixtyten 14:45, 11 May 2007 (PDT)
  • On the right of the screen you can see something out of focus: it's Locke's arm (his t-shirt). So I think that the "tail" it's only his hand (he is pointing the chair while he's talking to Ben, and when the camera moves down, his hand/forearm is framed). --Andreapasotti 3:39, 12 May 2007 (Italy)
  • It's a lens flare. --Piccolo113 23:29, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Is this John Locke or Jacob?

Jacobs house snap.png

This looks like John Locke. Right after Jacob says "Help me" when John was walking out of the door. 90% this is John but somehow I cannot be sure. Any ideas? --Jack in the box 01:53, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Of course its Locke, look at the scar over his right eye. By the way, with the islands healing properties, does anyone know why this hasn't been healed completely?!  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  02:02, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Isn't it Terry's real scar? --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 05:54, 12 May 2007 (PDT)

  • I'm not sure, didn't see it in anything else he is in. As for why it didn't heal, it did, it just left a scar.
    • you never see the scar until the plane crash. You never see it in any flashback episodes.--Lucky Day 18:24, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

If you don't focus on the scar, I see Locke. -- SawBucks  Talk  Contribs  16:49, 30 November 2008 (PST)

"Spoiler warnings" in Cultural References

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when I saw the bold-faced "spoiler warnings" for plot points about Harry Potter, Carnivale, and The Prisoner. Has anyone added "spoiler warnings" to The Wizard of Oz, too? What if someone doesn't know the meaning of "Man Behind the Curtain"? --Amberjet11 07:19, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Is there a policy at Lostpedia regarding spoilers for stories other than Lost? Since I have not yet seen The Prisoner, the revelation of the ending in this article has ruined it for me. What could once have been my (future) enjoyment of this show has now been spoiled, and there is no point wasting my time with it now. I didn't want this to happen to anyone else who wanted to see the show, so I put in spoiler warnings.
I think that there is a difference between The Wizard of Oz (1939) and the other media. That particular film has been seen by tens of millions of people over nearly seventy years, with annual showings on pre-cable network U.S. television for two decades, and the phrase "man behind the curtain" has become a common reference in U.S. English. On the other hand, despite their mass readership, the Harry Potter stories are relatively new, and unlike film distributions and television broadcasts, the experience of the written word is less-concentrated in time. It is to be expected that many members of that audience are going to be "late". I, for one, hadn't learned the details of Voldemort's origins until a couple of months ago, years after that particular volume was published. The Prisoner (a weird, short-lived TV show from Britain) and Carnivale (a very recent cable show in an age of hundreds of channels) are too obscure for their central mysteries (and not mere "plot points") to be common knowledge.
There is a link from Lostpedia's article on Benjamin Linus to the Wikipedia article for Ozma of Oz. They use spoiler warnings for that book, even though it was published one hundred years ago. Why can't we apply the same courtesy here?--GK4 09:58, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
  • I know I may be an unusual case, but I didn't see The Wizard of Oz until I was about 16 or 17. When I watched it, I kept recognizing the sources of dozens of references and parodies I'd seen over the years (like "ding dong, the witch is dead") that I hadn't understood until that point. It's not safe to assume that everyone has seen everything, but in a Wiki environment full of cultural and literary references, I think there needs to be one standard for all spoilers...either no warnings, or slap warnings on everything. --Amberjet11 07:18, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Ben Linus was born during the Solstice

Just thought I'd mention, December 22nd is the Solstice. (For the northern hemisphere, it's the winter Solstice.) Many people consider the time of the solstice to be the most powerful on this planet. --Cyric 08:51, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

In fact, now that I think about it, it could be related to some theories about the powder around the cabin. Perhaps it IS a protection circle. --Cyric 08:53, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Did you ever see the movie "Skeleton Key"? Circles and lines of brick dust played a major role in the plot. --Amberjet11 10:16, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

The Beaker People built Stonehenge and other circles and roads in the direction of the Winter Solstice. I was just there. It was pretty entertaining when my tour guide was making references to the Summer Solstice, obviously trying to get more tourists to book with her for then. Of course, the tourists would be off the main road the Beaker People built and facing the wrong way to the Horseshoe when they did that. I think the Winter Solstice is worth mentioning in the Trivia section. --Lucky Day 18:30, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Overlooked points: Mikhail knew too much!

I think some important ideas have been overlooked from when Mikhail runs into camp... First, Ben seems almost disappointed that he's alive. Also, how could Ben have not known how high the sonic barrier was set? Would the Others really accidentally leave their only defensive wall set too low?!? Second, Mikhail knows way too much about Naomi. She didn't mention the ship, and especially its location, until she was back at the camp! She said it was "80 nautical miles" away, which equals 148 kilometers or kliks. Mikhail said "130 kliks to the West of us." This is BIG. Either Mikhail was listening into that tent when she was talking to Sayid, or Juliet or Jack told him (Kate told them), or he had another source of the ship's location. Could Juliet and/or Jack have gone off to meet Mikhail? Could he have come running because he knew about the ship and helicopter crash?!? And how did he know the "to the West" part - she said that to Sayid but Kate did not say "West" to Jack/Juliet! --Pedxing 10:14, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

The barrier was still set high enough to do significant physical damage. It wasn't set so low that any of the party that approached it was going to try and go through it. The monster also didn't get through it later on. As far as Mikhail, we didn't see every moment that Mikhail was treating her and we don't know the first time she discussed the ship. We don't know that Sayid was the first person to hear that information. She could have said it in another language during a time that was not on screen. Mikhail could have also doubled back to the area of the clearing and listened in. I don't see Jack and Juliet being likely. None of the Others seemed to know that Mikhail was alive so Mikhail could not have known where Juliet was or how to contact her. Dharmatel4 12:10, 11 May 2007 (PDT)
It's absurd to assume that Mikhail got to know all that in "between scenes", while the camera wasn't looking. This way you can just as well assume that Mikhail had sex with Kate off-camera sometime... As long something wasn't shown or told we have to assume it didn't happen, everything else would be a pointless imagination. As it was presented Mikhail's knowledge seems to be a script error. Roger 17:08, 11 May 2007 (PDT)
FYI, she told Sayid in her secret tent at the beach, not in the jungle... --Pedxing 17:00, 11 May 2007 (PDT)
I agree that this is a significant point. There is no way to reconcile Mikhail's knowledge about the ship solely from their encounter in the Jungle. Also keep in mind that Naomi told Mikhail (in Portugeuse) that she was "not alone," a point that Mikhail didn't bother to mention at the Others' camp (and that Naomi apparently hasn't yet told the Lostaways). Is it possible we got a bad translation from "Catch-22"?--Eyeful Tower 05:50, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
I can't imagine she had time to tell Mikhail "I've got a ship 130 km West of here" - she was pretty much out of action and mumbling incoherently the WHOLE time he was with her in the jungle... Switching languages, etc - it's clear to me that she wasn't totally conscious until she talked to Hurley at the end of the episode, and by then Mikhail was probably far away or Sayid or Desmond would have heard him I think. If we're going to chalk unanswered questions up to "well, it happened off screen" then we might as well just give up trying to figure this show out and say "well, Ben told Locke all the secrets of the island between scenes 24 and 25 and the writers just didn't show us!" LOL --Pedxing 06:26, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
  • Keep in mind he had the phone for a time. Although its relatively certain it was broken some of have argued otherwise.--Lucky Day 21:33, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

The Swan/Kelvin/Radzinsky during the purge

OK. So "the hostiles/others" apparently were aware of the swan, but not it's location, so theoretically Radzinsky and Kelvin were original Dharma members. I'm just wondering how Kelvin's recruitment to Dharma in particular fits into the time frame of the purge, since he was obviously in Iraq for the first Gulf war which was 1991/2 [please correct me if I'm wrong]. Also if Dharma had run out of funding like the Lost Experience suggests in 1987, how did Kelvin get recruited, and who's still dropping Dharma branded goodies on the island?!!! This is all getting VERY confusing in terms of timelines... Don't even get me started on how Rousseau's story might fit in - I'm sure she knows more than she's letting on. --Sixtyten 14:27, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

It would be very odd to put a group of people on an island, & then when they all vanished, not wonder what happened to them or send an expedition to investigate. The Blast door map timeline provides dates for events in 1981, 1984, 1985 -- then a gap until 2000. It appears that there were at least two more official visits to the island before Desmond arrived. And it's odd that DHARMA (or whoever picked their pieces afterwards) would make peace with the Hostiles, & permit any of them to leave the island (e.g., Richard Alpert) or have contact with the outside world. As for Rousseau, I think it's very clear now that she's not telling the entire truth about her past; perhaps she's the last surviving member of Dharma. -- Llywrch 16:53, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Is this a Trivia?

"A man is shown in the hut when the objects start to move for a split moment in the chair where Jacob was supposed to be". Why are we keeping this one? It's Jacob, isn't it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andreapasotti (talkcontribs) .

Bullet-head skeleton

That skeleton with the bullet hole in the head...could that be Radzinsky? I can't see how the timelines would match up...but otherwise, why show it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheOddLinguist (talkcontribs) .

From what I could see that skeleton has the bullet hole in the forehead, but Radzinsky shot himself in the mouth, causing his blood to end up on the Swan's ceiling.--TechNic|talk|conts 19:31, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

I don't know, Kelvin did state that he used a shotgun to kill himself, and that would likely not leave much in the way of a cranium when all is said and done! --Frenkmelk 21:22, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

Well, they might've just "made sure" everyone was dead by putting a few in them....-Sauron18 13:58, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
Well the hostiles were carrying rifles after the 'gasing' werent they? Its not clear how the gassing took place exactly either so there may have been gunfire involved in the purge.

--Laika 08:15, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

Jacob the Sea Captain?

Does no one else think Jacob is dressed like someone out of Pirates of the Caribbean? Perhaps Magnus Hanso? Poppin' Fresh 23:05, 11 May 2007 (PDT)

My vote goes to Jacob "Magnus" Hanso. In the last frame you can also see long hair! --Andreapasotti 14:53, 12 May 2007 (Italy)

Locke's knife

Could someone put in the synopsis that Locke pulls a knife as he turns around when Ben shoots him? I'd do it myself - but whenever I put an unanswered question concerning it this fact is point blank denied as being what happened, so I'd like someone else to confirm my eye's aren't deceiving me. Here's a couple of screenshots showing it. [1] Thanks. - DrummerGirl 12:07, 12 May 2007 (BST)

  • Hey, I saw that happen also. Intially I thought Locke was drawing the gun he was given, and checked this after reading someone asking if Ben's gun was taken from Locke at some point. But you are right, it is the knife he wears at his side. I guess the old saying goes, "don't take a knife to a gun fight." Magicalpath 05:08, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
    • Great. That was my question - deleted twice! Now I can put it in again and complain if someone deletes it. - DrummerGirl 13:51, 12 May 2007 (BST)
  • Yup, he does that. And there's actually a bad cut right there, so it's hard to tell wether he pulls it while he turns around or after he sees the gun. MiF86 05:15, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
    • He started reaching for his knife before he'd turned right around.- DrummerGirl 13:51, 12 May 2007 (BST)
  • Just to reinforce: I've noticed this as well. Didn't think it was a matter of contention, tho. -- -. Grillage .- 14:33, 12 May 2007 (PDT)
  • If you slow the episode down at around 31mins 58secs when Locke is heading out the door ducked down, we see his gun is missing. So I guess Ben uses Locke's gun. --Gredge 18:00, 12 May 2007 (PDT)


Following on from slaves brought to the island to mine. If there is a gemoligist i think next year will go deep underground. I dont know if Locke assumed the slaves were there to mine. Who told him that and why would you travel so far to mine for what exactly? Possibly a type of magnetic metal, ahhh.

Smoke Monster

If we assume the monster takes the form of people already known from the Episode Mr. Eko died ("The Cost of Living"), the smoke monster was actually Ben's mother correct? But then, how would you explain his mom showing up at his window inside the camp, behind the Sonar Fence, given what was shown in ("The Cost of Living")? I think this should be added "unanswered questions" (Menot 15:23, 12 May 2007 (PDT))

  • No - this is more relavent as an argument against a theory, or to a theory in itself (eg. that the sonar fence doesn't work). I think it would only count as an unanswered question if the apparitions of dead people had been said in the show to be the smoke monster. DrummerGirl 23:43, 12 May 2007 (BST)

On another topic related to the monster -- it's interesting that the Others don't seem concerned at all about encountering it out in the jungle.

Distant scream in the jungle.

Right after Ben lights the lamp before entering Jacob's hut, there is the sound of a loud cry far off in the jungle (Locke reacts to it and checks his gun). Isn't there? Burt Gummer 17:15, 12 May 2007 (PDT)

Yes, you're right. Not a human cry, but some sort of animal call. Very eerie sound. As you say, it is far off, so is hard to hear properly. Although, maybe it's some sort of instrumental noise as part of the spooky music soundtrack, rather than something in the jungle. Good spot.--TechNic|talk|conts 17:41, 12 May 2007 (PDT)

Jacob is Christian Shephard!

It has to be! Just look at the bump on Jacob's nose, and compare it to Christian's. Neither Jack or Locke doesn't have that bump in their nose, or at least not that big. Diamon 18:15, 12 May 2007 (PDT)

  • If it was Christian, they'd have credited John Terry as appearing in this episode.
    • I dont think it was John Terry. but even if it was they would not have credited John Terry as it would have been a MASSIVE spoiler.
  • If John Terry had appeared in this episode, he'd have been credited. Andrew Divoff was credited in "The Cost of Living" even though he only appeared on the Flame station feed on the Pearl Station's monitor for a brief moment. SAG regulations and all. Therefore, it was not John Terry.--Nevermore 13:27, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
    • Can an actor agree not to be credited for the sake of the plot?--Jim 10:16, 13 May 2008 (PDT)
        • By this logic, whoever Jacob IS, WAS credited.
          • Not if they only used a non-SAG stand-in, like they did for the original Penny photo. And we already know that Carlton Cuse provided the voice.
            • I doubt SAG regulations would make them announce the casting, particularly for someone who only appears for a frame or two. I've seen guest stars not appear in the credits, such as when Dennis Hopper was on 24 - the episode on which he first appeared didn't list him (later ones did), it would have spoiled the surprise to have his name on it. It may be a character we've already seen (my guess), or it may be somone completely new. --Minderbinder 11:47, 16 May 2007 (PDT)

This was not Jacob, this was his nemesis. The man seen is in fact Christian Shepard - the nemesis had taken control of his body. --KAB 18:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Prisoner references

Most of these should be on their own page. This page should only list parallels between The Prisoner and this episode and nothing more. ∇ϕ 21:44, 12 May 2007 (PDT)

Will Locke return to Jacob's house?

In my opinion Locke will return to Jacob's house before the season finale, telling Jacob he will help him, and searching for some answers, too. Oh, but we'll watch this only in Season 4.

What do you think about this? --Andreapasotti 23:14, 13 May 2007

Locke has returned to Jacob's cabin("Cabin Fever"). He did not see Jacob, but he seems, in his words to Ben, to be happy with the result of his visit.--Jim 09:43, 13 May 2008 (PDT)

Volcanic Gas

I know that there has been a section already about the gas used by Ben to kill his dad but I was thinking about the DHARMA's mention of volcanoes. I'm not a biology expert, so could anyone say if sulfur or any sort of gas from a volcanoe could do the damage we saw done to the DHARMA Initiative? If so, maybe the hostiles have some control over the volcanoe or knew when it would release these gases, and Ben used the canister because he had to kill his own father?--Duvfeatherdraven 15:06, 13 May 2007 (PDT)

There are a couple problems. The symptoms are the same in the van and at the Barracks. Gasses of the type your talking about would not clear quickly either. Death would be slower as well. The effect of the gas is so quick that it has to have an effect on the nervous system. Its like its a form of nerve gas where there is almost zero possibility of exposure through the skin. If it were a biological agent, it would have to be something thats fatal if inhailed but that dies in open air within a few hours and can live for a while in a closed container. I dont know of any biological agent like that. Dharmatel4 21:38, 13 May 2007 (PDT)

Chronology of the tape (sorry if this is the wrong place for this)

In DOC Juliet records on one side of the tape the information about Sun In The Brig, we see Ben listening to the tape that Locke steals and gives to Sawyer. In The man behind the curtain Juliet instructs Sawyer to listen to the other side of the tape where the kidnap instructions are heard.

This means: After Juliet recorded her piece on Sun, the tape went to Ben who recorded the reply, which was sent back to Juliet, who heard it. The tape then went back to Ben who listened to it again (in front of Locke) who then stole it. From the man behind the curtain we know that Ben was annoyed about the tapes disappearance so we can assume that it was not a "Locke test" to play it in front of Locke Therefore to my mind there is a mix up in the chronology of the tape that may have been overlooked for the sake of showing Juliet to be a "good" person or there is more information that Juliet knows that we dont--Feargal 01:33, 14 May 2007 (PDT)Feargal!

Hmm, I'd rather put the chronology this way: Juliet records her message about Sun; then Ben listens to the tape in front of Locke; after that Ben records his instructions on the other side of the tape (not shown on screen); then Locke steals the tape and gives it to Sawyer; Sawyer plays it to the Losties; and then Juliet instructs him to turn the tape around and listen to the other side, knowing there would be a message from Ben, but not yet knowing what it was. This way there's no mixup in chronology and everything is fine. --Henryk 03:12, 14 May 2007 (PDT)
I'd say thats the chronology... But sometimes, we do seem to think a bit too much about this stuff. Ben recorded the reply after Locke heard him listening to it. Simple.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:50, 14 May 2007 (PDT)
If Ben recorded the reply after Locke heard Juliet on the tape, it means that before he left for the Black Rock, early the following morning, the tape went back to the medial station where it was heard by Juliet and back to the Hostile Camp in time for Locke to steal it some time during the night, remembering when he woke up the Hostiles were already leaving for the new camp —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Feargal (talkcontribs) .
No, why? Locke hears Ben listening to the tape. Some time after that Ben records the reply and instructs someone to bring it back to the medical station. However, that never happens, as Locke steals it first (and subsequently gives it to Sawyer). Ben, just noticing that the tape is gone, simply *assumes* that Richard Alpert took it and brought it back, but that never happened. And yes, this means that Juliet never heard Ben's reply before she instructs Sawyer to turn around the tape. --Henryk 23:20, 14 May 2007 (PDT)
I thought the same thing (that Juliet first heard Ben's message on the beach in front of everyone else) except for one thing that's bugging me: why would Ben turn the tape back over so that Juliet's message was queued up? Travisseitler 19:35, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
I know this is an old conversation, but for the sake of clarity I wanted to reply. Firstly, I'd say that it was most likely normal practice for Ben and Juliet to record on opposite sides of the tape (perhaps so Juliet could listen to her own message again if she misses the context of something Ben replies--like rereading your own words on an email--and v.v.), so it wouldn't be unusual for her to tell them to turn it over to look for Ben's message. Secondly, we don't know that Ben turned it over. Locke could have done that before he gave it to Sawyer so that Sawyer could hear the message that Locke heard. The bigger question would then be why didn't Locke tell Sawyer to listen to both sides of the tape? -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:08, 20 March 2008 (PDT) Edit: Rewatching it I realised that Sawyer not only had to listen to Juliet's side before he gets to the beach, but he let's Sayid hear it before anyone else also. So that's two times it was listened to (and rewound? I thought that model didn't rewind?) and not turned over. 04:52, 13 April 2008 (PDT)

Taking another look at the school scene

Watching the school scene again made me wonder about something. The preparations seemed very elaborate. Issuing the teacher a rifle and securing the doors shut seems more than a little strange at a school inside a secure area like the barracks. But then I started wondering if maybe there was a good purpose behind them. Maybe the hostiles (like the Others after them) had specifically taken or tried to take children in the past. Dharmatel4 15:23, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

Well, Annie seemed very good at locking the door. It looks like it is a drill they perhaps practiced before. I am going to suggest your statement is probably a fair one, this was probably not the first time it had happened, that or they expected it to happen one day so they were prepared. -Mr.Leaf 15:26, 14 May 2007 (PDT)
Check another thing out. Right after Annie grabs Ben and helps him move away from his desk and over to the far wall with the rest of the students. There is a brief moment where the camera cuts to a shot out the window where Dharma workers are running past with guns. One of those workers, shown only from behind, looks a whole lot like Sawyer. If so, this would confirm that the time travel incident didn't change history at all. --Jaiotu 05:15, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
I just noticed this myself....but when you pause the video and go forward frame-by-frame, you can see that it's not him becuase the man is clean-shaven and his face is too chubby. Although, that would have made for some EPIC foreshadowing if that was their intention.--Piccolo113 19:04, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Portland Weather Records (Ben's birth)

reference: [2]

I checked out the daily high temps for Portland in the 1960s on December 22nd.

1962 - 43f/6c

1963 - 43f/6c

1964 - 59f/15c <------

1965 - 39f/3c

If I read the tables correctly December 22, 1964 seems to have been a relatively warm day for winter in Portland after a week of really cold weather (lows in single-digits f) Dharmatel4 22:20, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

Good day for a hike then! Perhaps not if youre 7 months pregnant though. But who are we to judge? Also she was wearing quite a warm looking sweater.--Laika 00:56, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Pretty cold still. But then again, I am Australian. --Blueeagleislander 01:11, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Again, which Portland is this? I've been to both Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine. Both cities forget that the other one exists.--Lucky Day 18:33, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

In my opinion, its unlikely to be Portland, ME. I can believe people out in Oregon on a warm december day, but warm december days in Maine don't seem likely. Dharmatel4 19:24, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Add to this datum that 1964 set the record for total precipitation on 22 December: 1.5 inches. Reference Either this was not the Portland in Oregon (which would ruin the connection established in "Not in Portland"), or Ben's parents liked to hike in the rain. (Or maybe the PTB goofed.) -- Llywrch 14:45, 16 May 2007 (PDT)

What I wanted to do with the temps is to show that a warm day was plausable in the Portland Oregon area on December 22nd. I think holding writers accountable for weather on particular days is too high a standard to hold them to. I think the writers clearly referenced portland for a reason and that they meant Portland Oregon. I would count anything else as a goof. Dharmatel4 15:06, 16 May 2007 (PDT)

This isn't really related, but why did Ben lie about being born on the island? He obviously wasn't.


When young Ben is in his room the day of the attack by the Hostiles he overhears his father and Horace arguing about the attack we can clearly hear Rodger say: "When we were on the way back from the plane...all hell broke loose" What plane? Obviously as Ben is so young it could not have been Mr. Echo's brothers plane, was it a water plane, is there a landing strip on the Island? This seems to mean that planes (and not just boats or subs) can find the Island, and maybe without crashing!--Feargal 04:35, 15 May 2007 (PDT)Fearal

He actually says he was on his way back from the FLAME. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 04:58, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
Yeah its definitely the Flame, I did the transcript for that episode and I usually check everything to make sure --Nickb123 (Talk) 05:01, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
thanks, i replayed it a few times and heard plane, but flame makes much more sense!


  • Ben says Jacob hates technology just like Locke does. He has him put away his flashlight. When John used his flashlight that's when everything broke loose. Is there a section on Philosophy or specific Island Religion? John by instinct became an Island follower and even accepts Boone's death. He came to the same understanding against technology on his own but this already started as he planned his Walkabout.--Lucky Day 18:38, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Mikhail's a Wimp

So far Mikhail, reportedly an ex-Soviet army vet, has been beat up Sayid and Jin and John twice if you count John's "killing" him. Maybe this is why he's so prone to shooting people first. --Lucky Day 21:43, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Don't pay out Mikhail, he's awesome! And also, why not put this on Talk:Mikhail Bakunin, not here? --Blueeagleislander 23:58, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

Good idea. Done. --Lucky Day 00:04, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

Article Image Change..

I think that the articles main image (the one showing the character the episode is about) should be changed to one of Ben at his current age. The current picture shows three people, which doesn't exactly follow the trend of the other episodes. Also, consider the episode White Rabbit, we didn't show kid Jack in the image, so why kid Ben? If someone could grab a picture of Old Ben it would be much better. I think the two best shots would be either when he's starring at his wooden doll or when he's just pulled off his gasmask after the purge. I can't get any good pics right now. Voodoo 21:39, 16 May 2007 (PDT)

Unanswered Questions

Here are some Unanswered Questions/Trivia removed and why if at all possible.

    • Why didn't Roger open the car door or make any attempt to survive when Ben opened the gas cannister?

I would that Roger was too drunk or stunned by he situation. He's obviously aged rapidly from heavy drinking in the 8 to 10 years in this scene. He's not a quick man anymore and of course he just cracked another DHARMA brand beer. --Lucky Day 00:18, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

In greatest hits we now know they were working with Rousseau to come up with a plan to trap the others and blow them up with dynamite.--Lucky Day 00:18, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

    • What happened to Cooper's body?

I'm not sure this is a significant question.--Lucky Day 00:18, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

    • If Ben is "the only living member of the DHARMA Initiative", why does Mikhail continue to wear the DHARMA uniform?

Part of this is actually good question. I will leave it as "Is Ben the only Living member if DHARMA"? Here's why. If you listen to what Ben actually says he refers to himself as being one of those or one of them who was smart enough. There's some semantics here that depends on the context of just what "one of" he was talking about. Was he talking about the Hostiles or one being one of the DHARMAns that switched sides.

As for the DHARMA uniform, Mikhail used it as as disguise to the Losties as the Others are so apt to do.--Lucky Day 00:27, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

I've originally formulated that question, and I still can't understand why it was removed. As for the possible "answers", let's see. In an episode, Ben clearly states, "I'm the last surviving member of DHARMA". There are no semantic glitches in that, he puts it very clearly, even if it comes out as a lie in the future.
Mikhail using the jumpsuit as a disguise sounds to me as strongly speculative - people could assume that, but based on no hard evidence. There is still no answer to the question, sorry. It should stay there, because Mikhail indeed wears the jumpsuit all the time and he's not supposed to be a DHARMA member.
On the other hand, the part of the question seen as "good" and kept there has no point in being asked, frankly. I mean, why should it be asked at this point, if Ben already "cleared" that? There's a big possibility of it being a lie, but no particular reason for that was given in this episode. -- -. Grillage .- 20:39, 18 May 2007 (PDT)
    • How did young Ben acquire the code to disable the sonic fence?

He overheard they change it daily. I think two and two tells us that he made an effort to find out what it was for that day.--Lucky Day 00:27, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

    • Ben grew up as did (probably) all of the other children that were in his class; so were there any Dharma children left to spare?

This question makes no sense. Roger Workman 09:30, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

    • If all the Dharma initiative's members were killed during the purge using this gas, why would the skeleton have a hole in the head?

We don't know how all of the DHARMA people died; we only saw Roger die from the gas. Roger Workman 09:30, 17 May 2007 (PDT)

All the others were dead on the floor with no trace of blood, and the "hostiles" came out from the woods using masks as well. It's indeed safe to assume that they've used gas massively on the DHARMA people. The question about one of the dead having a bullet on his head remains answered. Why would anyone use bullets under those circumstances? -- -. Grillage .- 20:39, 18 May 2007 (PDT)
It seems fairly obvious. Even with the gas masks on, they showed them all with guns when they arrived. Probably just someone who either didn't get finished off by the gas, or who was outside the camp and was killed separately. --Minderbinder 09:54, 22 May 2007 (PDT)

Possibly, wind conditions resulted in some of the DHARMAites not dying. The weapons were used to administer coups de grâce in such cases.--Jim 09:53, 13 May 2008 (PDT)

    • What is the meaning of Jacob's message "Help me"?

It is shown in recent episodes that there is a clear threat to the Island by Widmore's men. Jacob sensed this threat and thereby called out for help. I guess it is not a mystery anymore. I removed this question based on this.--Messenger 00:06, 20 May 2008 (PDT)


When Ben runs to the Sonar Fence, right before Emily appears, there were some whispers. Maybe I'm wrong, but can somebody check it? Kemot from Poland 09:06, 19 May 2007 (PDT)

There is. The transcript is somewhere on the wiki. --Blueeagleislander 00:58, 22 May 2007 (PDT)

How about:

Man: "Look at me"
Ben's mother: "Look at me. It's all right, it's okay, (-It's okay, **echo) I'm here. Look at me."
Man: "Ben, You're my prisoner and- (inaudible, but most likely: "and we are ready" or "and you are mine". Perhaps both in overlay.)
Man: [demonic laugh.]
Ben: "I'm scared mom."
Mom: "It's all right, (-don't worry **Over lay**) patience Ben."

"(..tell you) I'm glad you decided to see me"
"Because I love him"
"That's right, that's what I mean/need"
"Don't worry about it"
"You're the one ..."

"Talk to him"
"Tell him that you're his mother"
"Tell him to be patient"
"That'll just make it worse"

"What's happening"
"If we can go over there we might be able to see it, but I don't know"
"Help us come through the fence"
"We're sending one, don't argue"

--Abcmsaj. Still Lost. And loving it. 20:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


I can't believe nobody has noticed or commented this yet. The very first flashback is not actually Ben's! For a start, part of the action happens before he was even born, and the rest of the dialogue Ben could not possibly remember at 1 minute old. This gives three conclusions:

1) The flashback was Roger's. This would be new for the show because it would mean the first time a flashback had been given to a character not currently on the island, or not alive at the time of 815.

2) The flashback was Ben's mental image of the day he was born. He was going along with whatever Roger, Horace or Olivia had told him, and this would mean that there would be some mental inaccuracies, like hot sun on 12/22.

3) The flashback was nobody's. I also noticed that it did not show Ben's face and the whooshing noise beforehand, which makes me think it was just a scene to show us his birth.

Thoughts?--Pinknoise 01:47, 24 May 2007 (PDT)

Flashbacks aren't specifically memories characters are having during the episode, they are simply parts of their lives shown to us in the context of a situation happening in the "present". As such, the flashback is technically Ben's, since he is there, even if he doesn't remember. --Sauron18 04:38, 24 May 2007 (PDT)


I don't understand what this supposed blooper is attempting to communicate, "When young Ben crosses the sonar fence, he is carrying a Fossil bag. According to the Fossil website, the company was founded in 1984, many years after Ben was presumably born." Edit: I'm going to venture a guess here that the editor was trying to say that Ben having a bag that could only be manufactured after 1984 is a blooper because of the timeframe. I don't think this is a blooper, given that we don't know how long he had the messenger bag (which appears to be the Recon model), or exactly what year is depicted in the scene where he pulls the rabbit out. I'm removing it. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 15:19, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

Man from the cabin

I propose there should be an indepedent artical for the man in the cabin, as we do not know who he is, and it would be useful to isolate him to neatly accomadate all theories of who he/it is.

Pierre's arm

I read on a blog that Pierre's arm is prosthetic here in the processing film, despite him losing it in 1977, so it would be a continuity error. But I can't clearly see it in screen caps, so does anyone know if it is or not? --Golden Monkey 14:20, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Richard's gas mask

There is no reason for Richard to wear the gas mask, as he cannot die. The exact quote from Ab Aeterno is, "Then I never want to die. I want to live forever." "Now that, I can do." It's not that Richard just cannot age or kill himself, he cannot die at all. --Axemantitan 22:45, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Huh? But that only makes sense if you ignore "Dr. Linus". That episode makes it clear he can die, or at least he thinks he can. --Golden Monkey 06:19, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Goof - broken lamp

Plot summary says lamp is intact, but later in the article it says unbroken lamp is a good. So as lamp supposed to be intact, like fire not burning the cabin, or is it prop error? Gevorg89 (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

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