Talk: The Heart of the Island

Construction

The page for the source says that the Source was constructed by "The island." I think this is misleading since we definitely see that some things down there that are man-made. Not excluding the fact that there's some evidence of previous visitors.--Youl 21:45, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Light Extinguished

• I think it is inconclusive that the light has gone out. It appears that as the smoke is rising from the chamber it is simply obscuring it. We don't see another camera angle that shows conclusively the light is gone out. It has been brought up as well that the light can be seen emmiting from the frozen donkey wheel... all in all I think it is too early to conclude it was put out. Peppercopia 06:41, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Point conceded. I'll remove.  Robert K S   tell me  07:01, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Wormhole

It's the entrance to the white hole spewing life from the pulsar at the crab nebula. That's how it all ends up there! Guess should be on a theory page. Alatari 09:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Possible literary reference

I'm referring to the Jack L Chalker sci-fi novel Midnight at the Well of Souls. For any of you familiar with the novel, there seems to be many similar concepts. They're specifically alike when it comes to MIB entering the source/Nathan Brazil entering the well of souls.

For example: The Wellworld = the island. The Well of Souls = the source. The Malkavian form = the smokey monster form. Nathan Brazil = Jacob. Mavra Chang = The Candidate. The Malkavian plan to find meaning = the good vs evil judging contest. The universe as we know it = everything off the island.

This has the nice effect of making the mother's statement about how there isn't anything else besides the island technically correct. It could also explain how "rules" are just as important as the laws of physics. --dead jawa 13:58, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Has Locke seen it?

Does anyone else remember Locke mentioning early on that he had seen into the heart of the island, and that it was a very bright light, and he called it beautiful? I think he says this after meeting the smoke monster for the first time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Javallance (talk • contribs) 2010-05-12T13:00:20.

• I've added this in the article, because I think the producers really was strongly suggesting this bright light is the same one Locke saw. He tells Jack "I looked into the eye of the island, and what I saw was beautiful" and then he tells Eko "I saw a beautiful bright light". My best guess is that Locke saw this bright light shortly after his first encounter with the Monster in Walkabout, the Monster let him live, he wandered about a bit more and saw The Source. Phobia27 19:08, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • What about Ben, when he turned the wheel ? We assume they are different wheels just because it's not cold in the past but will be cold in 2005 (hence Ben's coat etc.) ? --FrenchFlo 19:20, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Locke was definitely talking about his encounter with smokey when he made that statement. Not a misterious pool of light. Jdray 19:38, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• No, Locke said he saw a 'beautiful bright light' which definitely does not sound like the Smoke Monster. The Smoke Monster emits flashes of light, but never has anyone else described those flashes as beautiful (Eko, Juliet, Kate). The 'beautiful bright light' and 'the eye of the island' fits the bill almost perfectly to the Source as opposed to the Smoke Monster, as the Crazy Mother also described the Source as beautiful. The producers have said some elements of the show have been planned since Season 1, and this is one of them. If you're going to claim something is wrong, at least back your statement up with evidence as to why you think it is. Phobia27 21:01, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I just rewatched season one. He says it after his encounter with Smokey (which we don't see) - but Smokey used to shine a bright light - like when he chased Kate and Juliet in handcuffs and shone the light while they were hiding in the banyan roots (Season 3) - that is what Locke saw. Jdray is right    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   16:53, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • As I said, the Monster emits "flashes" of light as Kate and Juliet saw, but neither of them described that moment as 'beautiful'. I don't see why I have to repeat myself here, but Jacob's Mother described the Source as a 'beautiful light', Locke also describes what he saw whilst trekking through the jungle as a beautiful bright light, yes he saw the Monster, but there's no reason to suggest he also saw the Source during his treks through the jungle in early Season 1. Here is the video of Locke and Eko in Season 3 (you only have to watch the first minute) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0aKSKsvH3g Phobia27 18:06, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• I think they wrote those lines specifically so we could make the connection, Locke was dragged down into the ground and saw something beatiful, and we now know that there is in fact a "beautiful" light down in the ground--Rod|talk 21:18, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

• • I don't recall Locke ever being dragged all the way underground (Jack always had a grip on him) and I think he made the "eye of this Island" remark after an above-ground encounter with the Monster and the incident with the Monster dragging him came later.  Robert K S   tell me  16:04, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

• • • It is possible that in his first encounter with MIB (which we don't see) he did drag him down underground and he did see the light. That would explain why he wanted Jack and Kate to let him go down when MIB was trying to pull him under at a later time.--Rp2012 20:07, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree i think Johns description is way to close to be just the smoke monster. No one would say looking into the smoke monster was beautiful that makes no sense. He said "I saw a bright light it was beautiful" and the eye of the island def isnt the smoke monster. Also the fact that they dont show him treck through the jungle walking around has nothing to do with it a all!!! They dont show what some of the charactors are doing for days at a time he def could have walked to the center of the island just walking to one of the many places they go.. Also again why is anyone talking about him either being or not being dragged under ground? You dont have to be dragged underground to see the light you just have to walk up to the cave were the center of the island is (IT GLOWS)Then just like the episode (THE END) you just walk into he cave and look down! Csbasile 16:45, May 25, 2010 (UTC)csbasile

Biblically

The source of life and death would be Eden. It's where life began, and where death began. It's also protected.

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

I know it's just speculation and shouldn't be included in the article, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

--BubbaCoop 14:13, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Fourth World?

In Jack Kirby's Fourth World comics, the Source is a mysterious essence or being which empowers the New Gods and other superpowered beings. It is implied to be the source of all life in the universe, and may even be considered an aspect of divinity itself. However, it is guarded by the Source Wall, a more-or-less impassable barrier upon which those who have tried to penetrate its mysteries are imprisoned, statue-like.

We know that the Lost writers have been influenced by comics in the past, and Kirby's Fourth World comics are considered minor classics of the medium. Could this "source" be related to Kirby's Source? Is this worth mentioning in the article, or is it too speculative? —Josiah Rowe 07:14, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

• Probably too much of an obscure reach. Keep in discussion I'd say.Charles widmore 03:22, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Exotic matter

Hmm... Shouldn't it be noted here that the DHARMA Initiative believed the source to be negatively charged exotic matter? --Pseudohuman 07:31, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Rename

Why is it called The Source? Is this said in the show? Jeff3210 07:37, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I'm wondering this myself. I never heard "The Source". I'm gonna propose a rename right now. Avindratalkcontribs email  14:33, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Re-watch the episode guys, Mother clearly calls it the source of the island. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  15:04, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, she clearly refers to it as "the source".--Baker1000 15:18, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should rename it Heart of the Island, because the producers call it so (near very end of the video). Avindratalkcontribs email  02:43, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

I strongly suggest renaming this article to The Heart of the Island - the mother says "it's the source, the heart of the island". It sounds like she's referring to it as the HotI and explaining what it is as "The Source". Besides, it makes more sense to say "the islanders are at the Heart of the Island" as opposed to "the islanders are at The Source". As SauronsMatrix says, Carlton Cuse refers to "the heart of the island" in an interview, therefore I consider that to be the official name. --Bluevane 16:50, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

If you want it to be renamed, fine, cast your vote for that to happen. But do not just remove the rename tag and change everything to your liking without a concenus being made. It's just rude and against policy.--Baker1000 21:52, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Its really annoying and obnoxious when users and admins do this. I don't care if you have over 9,000 edits, that just means you have too much free time, and/or are bad at editing wikis, not that you should do as you please and ignore the community.Avindratalkcontribs email  04:42, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

There are at least two other ways to interpret what Mother says: "It's the Source: the heart of the Island" (as in, "It's called 'the Source', and it is functionally the heart of the Island"); or, "It's (the source, the heart) of the Island" (as in, "This is both the the source of the Island and the heart of the Island, the terms 'source' and 'heart' are for all practical purposes interchangeable").  Robert K S   tell me  00:00, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Whichever name this article uses, it's an arbitrary choice, as the thing has no official name. In light of a multiplicity of bad options, the simplest one should be selected. "Heart of the Island" everywhere is a bit more clunky than just linking the Source.  Robert K S   tell me  23:32, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary choice? Then why don't we just rename "The Man in Black" to "Esau", as that is shorter? I'm for renaming it to The Heart of the Island since that seems to be the official name the producers use in interviews.Avindratalkcontribs email  04:42, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly - there IS an official name. I agree that The Source is a better choice of word for use in sentences, but it's something that people don't tend to remember after hearing Mother's line - most people remember the "Heart of the Island". Is there a way of finding an official script or something, because the official name will be written with capital letters at the beginning? I think "The Source" sounds really sci-fi and digital, too. --Bluevane 12:22, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Just link to both. It's clear. Spiral77 06:21, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

- In "What They Died For", Jacob refers to it as both "the light" and "the Heart of the Island", never once "the Source". I think it's clear what the name of it is now, so the page should be renamed to "The Heart of the Island".

I agree too but this freaking site never changes anything once some nitwit picks a name. Nobody can ever even agree on what criterion to use to decide whether to change something. God I'm glad this is almost over I'm getting crankly :) Charles widmore 03:21, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, we do a lot of renaming on this site when it is the logical thing to do. At the start of the season a SysOp chose the name "Dark Entity" for MIB, and it was renamed due to overwhelming concenus.--Baker1000 23:07, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

The evidence is mounting at this point. Frod 18:08, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

I vote for "The Light." It's been referred to as this, but "The Heart of the Island" has been used to describe it, but not the actual term for it. Msett 21:46, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Either "The Light" or "The Heart of the Island" is fine. "The Source" is obviously the worst out of the three, as per discussions above. Please rename. Avindratalkcontribs email  06:54, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

This page was moved by a Lostpedia user without consensus. Normally this would not be possible, but permissions were misconfigured by Wikia on Sunday. I have reverted the move and re-tagged it for discussion.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 18:53, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I moved it due to the overwhelming agreement combined with the non-action of the administrators. When the community is ignored like this, it falls apart. Avindratalkcontribs email  19:20, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

First off, a handful of users agreeing to the move doesn't constitute "overwhelming agreement". There is disagreement here, and I think some further discussion is needed before making the change. The community isn't being ignored here. It does appear that you have ignored several users that disagreed with the move. In the move summary you stated "everyone agrees", which is clearly not the case. I added the and templates above where applicable. If someone feels I have misinterpreted their statement, feel free to correct.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 19:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Obviously there is some disagreement (as with any rename discussion), but there is far more agreement than disagreement. By the way, why is is that when I put the agree / disagree marks, I get reverted, but when you do the exact same thing, it's all of a sudden okay? Doesn't make any sense. I changed one of Baker's to reply, because he already has a disagree mark. Way to not be biased. And the people who disagree are 1) lazy about having the thing a long name (not a good reason at all), 2) appear to be confused about the official name because they watched only an old episode, 3) He wants a rename, but prefers "The Light". I'm sure if they get back in the discussion, they'll agree that the official name is "The Heart of the Island" as I initially said. Avindratalkcontribs email  21:26, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

If you look at my edit history, I left a message for the other sysop that reverted the agree/disagree templates earlier. I hadn't even realized that you had done it before until I was looking at the history for something else. The templates definitely help to visualize consensus, and there's no problem with adding them in retroactively as long as you are doing it in good faith, not misrepresenting a POV, or changing the actual contents of the statement. It's just formatting.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 22:15, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Also, regarding the baker thing, I just didn't notice there were two. Bias didn't even come in to play. You should note that I took a neutral stance on this one to avoid the appearance of bias. When it comes down to it, I won't make the final call.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 22:19, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

One mention of a source, and that was just a description. --- Balk Of Fame ♪ talk 22:22, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

All my arguments have pretty much already been stated. --LeoChris 23:18, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Heart of the Island (Kdc2 22:53, May 27, 2010 (UTC))

I like the heart of the island, it just sounds better :D. --Steffi955 04:06, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Jack, Jacob, the Man in Black, etc. all call it The Heart of the Island. Why should we claim to know better than them? --Yuefairchild 10:31, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

-They all call it The Heart of The Island in the finale. What are we waiting for? The majority of us are agreeing, why hasn't the name been changed yet? I'm amazed the article wasn't named that in the first place. It seemed obvious that was the name, just from the way it was said originally. --Bluevane 10:43, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Aaaand of course, days after I move it and everyone agrees, still no move. Brilliant. Avindratalkcontribs email  04:16, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Ha, your antics on this talk page has been laughable, for starters you keep using the statement "everyone agrees" which is a load of crap because anyone with eyes can see not everyone agrees secondly you rip anyone who does not agree with you, but i believe your first argument was "Yeah I'm wondering this myself. I never heard "The Source". I'm gonna propose a rename right now" which is incorrect it was refered to as the source by mother. Other than that point (which is wrong) all you have done is refered us to "discussions above" youve refered to people as "lazy" and relying on old episodes well adress my point above you have yet to do that, the reason this change is not happening is because you refuse to adress any point that is viable on the opposite side of the argument all you have done is adressed the weak arguments how convienent. If anything every single user except you has provided a valid point so dont be so quick to insult others arguments when yours isnt all that great either. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  01:10, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

If you bothered to actually read the discussion above, you'd see that the only people who disagree are people who've only seen "Across the Sea", and they would be completely stupid to agree with their initial statements with the conclusion of the series. But they're not stupid, they just haven't replied. I'm sure if they did, they would agree that "The Heart of the Island" is the proper name. You wrote out a lengthy, incorrectly spelled paragraph which basically says that I attack everyone without providing valid arguments. "The Source" has not been used as the phrase to describe this location by any person other than the Mother. To continue arguing to keep this title (as you appear to be doing) would be absurd. The only feasible motive I can attach to this behavior would be to intentionally attack me and be the source of antagonistic behavior, simply because you can. Avindratalkcontribs email  05:34, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Once again your stupidity is glaring, yes i actually did read the discussions above, and i know for a fact both users who disagreed both saw "The End" and "What They Die For" showing you have no idea what you are talking about. Its funny how throughout your entire little "rant" above you yet again fail to provide a good argument. Also one thing Ive come to learn on this wiki is when a user has no good reply to a solid argument they will attack something like a users spelling, so instead of attacking my spelling how about you argue my points. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  23:23, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

I referred you back to the discussions because I and others provided valid arguments in there which you don't appear to be noticing. I will replicate them here since you obviously won't find them. 1) The executive producers and everyone involved with the show calls it the heart of the island and NOT "the source", 2) The characters do NOT refer to it by the source. The bottom line is that the vote stands at 13 to 3. Within the 3, one hasn't replied since seeing Across the Sea, one is you, and the other is lazy about typing out "The Heart of the Island", even though "The Source" can be redirected to this page, as the Monster redirects to "The Man in Black." So really to me, you're the ONLY person here disagreeing. What's YOUR argument for it? If it's just based on the fact that the Mother calls it so ONCE, you're not a very scientific person and you're further making yourself look foolish. So my statement that "everyone agrees" isn't a "load of crap". I'm saying that YOU'RE the only person who is actively trying to keep the old name for a dumb reason. Avindratalkcontribs email  00:01, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

when we were first introduced to the source/light/heart of the island, it was originally refered to in the orientation film as the anomolie, however it makes no sense to call it that sense jacob, his mother, etc. did not call it that. however, the DI did eventually refer to it as the source. since "the source" seems to be the only universal term used amongst different parties, it makes the most sense (for simplicity's sake) to refer to it as such. User:SherlockVonEinstein/sig 02:49 June 02, 2010

"For simplicity's sake" isn't a valid argument. And where did the DI call it the Source?? Avindratalkcontribs email  00:01, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

where? on the island, of course. as to when: in the first orientation film we saw, as well as when they were digging at the site for the swan. User:SherlockVonEinstein/sig 19:35 June 02, 2010

The Orientation film doesn't use the word "Source", and in the Incident, the term "source" only comes up in Sayid's dialog, "It's all set to go. Remember, be careful. It's rigged to explode on impact. According to Faraday's plan, you must get the bomb as close as you can to the source of electromagnetism.". We know that the swan station is not the same as the heart of the island.

The river where MiB's body winds up

• So after MiB goes into the Source, we see him get sucked down something, then Jacob finds his body presumably on the other side. In the background is a small waterfall, maybe five to six feet tall. I'm rewatching season one right now and in White Rabbit, Jack is led to water by his dad's ghost (MiB), and he finds a waterfall. Yes, there's lots of waterfalls on the Island, but I was thinking maybe this was the same one? After all, they do find Adam & Eve not far from there. Any other takers? Uzerzero 03:04, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
  • After watching the end scene in Across the Sea and then Jack finding the waterfall and them going to the caves.. I'm more inclined to think that it's not. It would be neat if it was because when they first go into the caves, Charlie says "It's totally you!" talking to Locke Uzerzero 03:38, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
    • The Source isn't near the caves. The freshwater source was near the caves, Mother and the twins lived at the caves, and Mother had to take the boys on a long walk to get to the Source.  Robert K S   tell me  16:09, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Finally, the Magiffin.

In nearly all Hitchcock films, there is an object that most characters chase. The famous Magiffen is Houston's Maltese falcon: As Bogie says this is the stuff that dreams are made of. The bridge over (on) the River Kwai, the two passports in Casblanca and the Pink Panther diamond are other examples. In LOST, there are two such items. One is the title of leader. There is a trap the real leader must protect the other MaGuffin called the Source What Mother says is a heresy to all Christians and probably to all Buddhists. The light within is divided among all. This is the Gnostic Heresy, i.e., God is within you from the start. Christians believe that the original sin is within us at conception. From what I understand of Buddhism, the journey to light is harch and long. (Personally, I believe both. As I wrote to Mr. Sheep, religion is a burden. The final destination is a cross.) Here is the real choice. Salvation lies in giving back the Source to this all-subsuming physicist that we call God. Every knowledgable Christian, Muslim, Jew and many others especially Spinoza and Einstein know the all is of this male, jealous God. Everyone should know that energy and matter are interchangable. They should know that energy cannot be created or destroyed. The question is who knows this. I am sure Faraday knew this. Maybe he still does. I bet that Linus knows this. Jack, Juilet, Locke Lapidus, Miles, Chang (or Candlewax) should know this. (I had this drummed into my head at age 11 by the nuns). In other words, everybody knows this. So what's the use of all these words? This is Pentecost when Peter spoke to the crowds and each heard in his own tongue. You may believe it or not. But there need not be a miracle to spark such a debate. A simple phrase can ignite an even bigger debate. Christ said, but it could come from anybody's lips. "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. I pay many taxes, but render little else to Caesar. That's the answer. The key to life (survival, happiness, return from the dead, true love....) lies in the shadow of the statue as well as in the hearts of some, but not so many, homo sapiens. --The mortal veil 16:56, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

• Dude the word is actualy "Macguffin" --D Toccs 00:44, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Before Mother?

In the box on the right side at the top with the vital stats, there is a list of the protectors of the Heart of the Island and the first name listed is "Unknown Woman (before Mother)" Where did we get this information from? Thanks! --JDMCMAMC 13:36, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Cuneiform, not Hieroglyphics

Just to remind everyone, the markings seen on the stone at the center of the pool were Mesopotamian Cuneiform "wedge writing", not hieroglyphics. People have been posting on several pages that they are Egyptian, but they're not.--EndsOnce 04:10, May 31, 2010 (UTC)