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The Economist

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, and it should definitely be on the TRIVIA spot, although I don't know how to phrase it. Sayid tells Elsa that her boss is not an Economist. That is, after all, the name of this episode. If you go back and look at the screenshot of the obit Jack read at the end of THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, the name is Jeremy Bentham, who was a prominent Economist. Elsa was working for whoever it was in the coffin. Andfound815 13:28, 15 February 2008 (PST)andfound815

  • And, in Through The Looking Glass, Jack is upset after reading the obit because he realizes his freedom from the island has come at the cost of an innocent man's life. A man who has done nothing wrong, but is merely an enemy of Ben's. Dappawit 13:03, 16 February 2008 (PST)
  • excellent observation. I can't believe I missed that. (I teach economics). It makes complete sense, as Jack would owe his freedom to Bentham letting he and the rest of the Oceanic 6 off the Island, but there have been numerous references to the fact that this freedom came at a cost, and that there will definitely be deaths and controversy as a result of Bentham's decision. The rest of the Oceanic 6 still holds this all against Bentham with hatred, but Jack felt a compulsion to pay his respects - no one showed up due to the secrecy of his life and organization, and this all fits the statement that the deceased was "NEITHER" a friend or family.
  • However, the LOST producers stated (I believe during the hiatus) that the person in the coffin was someone we had already seen (by the end of Season 3).

Elsas employer's phone call

It just hit me that the reason her employer called Elsa 30 minutes late where because that person might be on the Island. Because we learn in this episode that it is a 31 minutes time different between the real world and the Island. What do you think about that? --Gere 01:52, 15 February 2008 (PST)

  • On the phone call, Elsa verified that the caller was still at the hotel, I believe, still in Berlin. Salindger 09:59, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Further, they planned to meet at the "safe house", which by the tone of their conversation would likely mean in Berlin. --Litany42 10:21, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • When she gets the message from her boss (with the pager) she says "das Hotel Adlon" (the hotel Adlon) which is a luxury hotel in the city centre of Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Adlon) --StNexus 15:07, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Excellent observation on the phone call. While the caller was clearly in Berlin he/she may be used to calling 30 minutes early to make up for the 30 minute "island delay".Oodles 16:52, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Elsa's Employer

Did she say her boss is Brian Porter? Isn't that Walt's stepfather? --Mattw1027 06:26, 15 February 2008 (PST)

  • No.

Elsa's employer may be a British, French or American diplomat. The (real) Adlon Hotel is located beside the British Embassy; the French and American are on the same square.Oodles 16:51, 18 February 2008 (PST)

    • You are quite correct, I misheard the word "Employer" and thought I heard Porter I guess.

Press Release From ABC

The official press release for this episode is up at ABC Medianet, if an admin wants to go ahead and add crew, guest star, etc. information: http://www.abcmedianet.com/DNR/2008/pdf/dnr012808.pdf

guest cast

Guest starring are Ken Leung as Miles, Jeremy Davies as Daniel Faraday, Rebecca Mader as Charlotte, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, Mira Furlan as Danielle Rousseau, Marsha Thomason as Naomi, Armando Pucci as Italian man and Thekla Reuten as Elsa. Dharmatel4 12:25, 28 January 2008 (PST)

Hope we get to see Zoe Bell, who appears to be the voice of Regina. She rocked Deathproof[[1]] hard!

I was cracking up alone here, after I saw in the roster "Marsha Thomason - Naomi's corpse". I mean, really? Shouldn't it be just "Naomi"? Anyway, that came out pretty funny. -. Grillage .- 03:17, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Capitalization

We write 'External links', not 'External Links'. This goes for all headings.--Mc peko 21:39, 4 February 2008 (PST)

Centric

Sky One information confirms this episode to be _______ centric so would be worth changing it.--Dieweener 04:08, 11 February 2008 (PST)

- They don't add whose episode it is until after it airs, so as to not spoil it for others.Eman 16:32, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Sayid is James Bond and Ben is M!

If Lost is going to turn into Spy vs. Spy, then they choose the right characters to do it with in this episode. --Beardedjack 19:22, 14 February 2008 (PST)

  • But who is wearing the Black Hat and the White Hat? I always secretly rooted for the Black Hat. Salindger 11:25, 16 February 2008 (PST)

Flashback/Flashforward

This episode is a ______-centric episode as revealed on Digital Spy.-- Mikexchanger 09:10, 13 February 2008 (GMT)

If you'll look one post up, you'll see why we don't post this information on the article/talk pages until after the episode airs. It's already available on the spoiler information page, however. Jimbo the tubby 09:12, 13 February 2008 (PST)


Time Table for Flashforwards

Was the first flashforward after the rest of the episode? it seems like Sayid's hair was more gray... --Turniphead Danny 19:21, 14 February 2008 (PST)

I Agree, there was some gray in his beard when Ben was treating him --User:Twvogels

Also, this would explain why Mr. Avellino is so afraid of him. After all, now "they" know Ben and Sayid are after them. -. Grillage .- 00:59, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I seriously doubt this, since the flashbacks/flash forwards have always been chronologically. The nervousness of Avellino is because he knows of Sayid's task (namely to kill him) but this has nothing to do with the news the economist learned about him from Elsa. --Wurm 15:55, 16 February 2008 (PST)

I find this very interesting. It implies that the Oceanic Six have some very serious enemies (and at least Avellino is worried about harm coming to him from the Oceanic Six), or at least Ben has convinced Sayid that it is the case. Jack and Hurley certainly aren't laying low during the forwards we saw of them, which implies this takes place after them. Merick 13:16, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the Flash Forwards are being revealed to us in reverse order. Meaning that Jack goes crazy last. Before that, Hurley went crazy. Before that, Sayid is caught by Ben's enemies as his hitman, and before that, Kate does whatever it is we'll see Kate do. If you watch these episodes in reverse order, they somehow make a lot more sense. If I'm true, then the 'Economist' could very well be the man in the casket. It could also be Ben. Or Sayid.. Or Hurley... ZachsMind 13:14, 18 February 2008 (PST)
This would seriously complicate the storytelling process, I guess, but anyway, it's a damn interesting thing to think about. -. Grillage .- 17:45, 18 February 2008 (PST)
The flashforwards from "The Beginning of the End" are definitely before Jack's in "Looking Glass," but for the time being we cannot determine where Sayid's in this episode are with respect to those two episodes. It may be between them, or before or after either one, but it seems irrelevant right now because the point is that it revealed that the Oceanic Six are in trouble in the future and that Sayid ends up working for Ben. We also can't tell at this point whether the Avelino scene was chronologically before or after the rest of Sayid's flashforwards. Was Avelino the Economist that Sayid eventually finds? Was he the new name that Ben gives Sayid at the end? Or was he just the previous target before the Economist, shown for the purpose of the audience to learn that Sayid is an assassin in a very surprising and dramatic way without just telling us so that for the remainder of the episode we know what Sayid is up to with Elsa? Time will tell. --macosx 17:55, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Dread and Confusion

Wow. Lost has taken a really dark turn these last few weeks. I just finished The Economist, and I'm confused and filled with dread. Can't even think of any theories, I'm just shocked at how everything's gotten so bad among the survivors. Jack has become near-maniacal about getting off the Island, Locke has gotten damn near fundamentalist with his faith in the Island, even Hurley turned on his fellow survivors. The Oceanic Six obviously paid a hefty price for getting home, and Sayid is apparently still paying. When we found out Ben had been lying about living on the Island his whole life,in The Man Behind The Curtain, I thought that he had at least been there since he was a boy, but now we seem to find out that he can come and go at will, or why else would he have so many passports? And he's hiding it all from his own people behind that bookshelf. I'm almost sick to my stomach thinking about it. That's all I have to say for now. Any thoughts? --bq 20:23, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Its a real problem for the show. They alienated many people at the start of season three by making things so totally dark. The problem they have as a show is almost a total lack of any sympathetic characters right now except (of all people) Sawyer. They also kind of pulled the rug out from almost all the reveals they did about Ben toward the end of season 3. Dharmatel4 20:39, 14 February 2008 (PST)
The show is definitely not as appealing to me as it used to be. Now we're faced with Sayid being an assassin, ghosts, nobody really seeming to care that Charlie died (well, those first five minutes they found out, but the next island-day Claire didn't even seem to mind him being gone), and decomposition of the characters we've all grown fond of. What I mean by that is, as bq said, were characters going to the extreme of what they're defined by, or even just turning bland and robotic. Subpar writing. Locke, who has been my favorite character the past 3 seasons, could die in the next episode and I honestly wouldn't care at this point because I have no reason to care about him anymore. I think a big reason for a lot of fans' discontent, aside from it being such a dark tone right now, is the speed everything is going at. It's a much faster pace than what it used to be. 48 episodes may have been too few. If they had done maybe 56 they could have taken a little more time and I think maybe tell the story better.
The show as definately moved away from character analysis, but I think that stuff would have gotten stale if they kept it up. I think it is great that it moves at a fast pace. I remember in season two getting left with a cliffhanger, and then the next episode would ignore the cliffhanger completely and do a character based episode to keep the plot stretched out. The show has to evolve. We have seen it go from mystery about the island, to the others, and now to mystery about what will happen in the future. I think this season has been the most exciting yet.


Agreed. Personally, I'm loving the fast-paced storytelling. I'm even happy that they're shortening this season thanks to the strike. One of the things that was driving me crazy about past seasons was when they'd basically repeat the same character beats multiple times with minor variations. I love the economy of storytelling that they've forced themselves into--I think it's bringing out the best in a brilliant group of writers. Jacobw 03:38, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Totally agree about Sawyer. Who would have thought he'd be the one we could still like? Quentin Tarantino has said in interviews that when you're watching a movie and you get confused, it's OK as long as you feel you are in good hands, i.e. the director has a vision and will make it clear to you at just the right time. I try to keep this in mind as I watch Lost. I just hope they can knock down all these pins they've set up.


Quentin Tarantino has said in interviews that when you're watching a movie and you get confused, it's OK as long as you feel you are in good hands, i.e. the director has a vision and will make it clear to you at just the right time.
I don't know if Im in "right hands", but having just watched The Economist, I feel absolutely stunned by this dark turn, and in a very positive way. I don't feel they are running from the original storyline or premises at all, it's only a matter of developing the whole story somewhere else -- we couldn't just stay on the Island forever, waiting for help and living in distress, or start having innocuous flash-forwards that reveal everybody's "happy and safe", right?
This is not to diminish anyone's different impressions of the whole thing. I just felt I should express this as a huge fan as well. Maybe things are really going too fast, maybe 56 episodes would be better, I don't know. I'm just keeping up with it and loving the development so far. It's about people changing their lives, and we've sure been watching that as it happens. Just my 2c... -. Grillage .- 00:56, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Agreed. Things will undoubtedly get darker before they get "happier", it's what keeps the viewer coming back. If the flashforwards had been to Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid living their normal lives no one would be interested because they'd already know the ending. I do think the series was better before the quick-pacing, and am a little nervous about the new episodes being written now, since they're supposedly "super high-octane", but the writers know what they're doing. Even still, all that being said, the show IS getting a bit too dark for my tastes, at least in comparison to previous seasons.--HaloOfTheSun 01:44, 15 February 2008 (PST)
It's a show about a plane crash. People are running around with guns shooting each other. Every character has a tortured past. If you're looking for something happier, American Idol is in the middle of its ten millionth season. Everything we've been shown in the flash forwards has been disturbing; the producers are going to great lengths to show us that the survivors are not OK and there is more action in store for us off the island. That being said, it looks like episode 4 may lighten things up a bit based on the clip after the episode. --Beardedjack 06:42, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I wouldn't bet on that. Dharmatel4 08:40, 15 February 2008 (PST)


This is a show where someone was ripped apart by a monster in the very first episode. And now it's too dark? --Stripes 07:00, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Not to mention that a pregnant woman gets kidnapped and drugged, a child gets kidnapped, and a raft gets fire-bombed. In season 2, Michael shoots Anna Lucia and Libby to free a homicidal maniac. And Lost got dark in Season 3? Puh-leeze.--Eyeful Tower 12:29, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I have same felling as you guys, thats making me think that session 2 was the best one yet, it's like Swan's "magnetic-discharge" did something to there heads, and increased darker atmosphere. -Shadowriver 17:47, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Too dark? You guys are kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. I didn't sign up for Gilligan's Island 2000. This show's been dark from the get go. Why would people feel alienated? We're in the right hands. We're in the only hands that can mold this story. What you want? Snow White and a happy ending? If we knew this would end happily, why would we bother watching? Where would the suspense be? You can't have a decent car chase in a film if everybody's shown wearing safety belts and abiding by the speed limit. There's gotta be some danger. ZachsMind 13:20, 18 February 2008 (PST)

travel time to the barracks

The barracks seems to keep getting closer. They managed a round trip within the same day this time. They have also all been awake for a real long time now. (like a couple days - since day 92). Dharmatel4 20:46, 14 February 2008 (PST)

    • Simple, the islands shrinking, they've never been able to bop back and forth like this before (sarcasm)
      • The round trip wasn't from the beach camp to the barracks and back; it was from the place where the helicopter landed to the barracks and back. Spikebrennan 07:26, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Part of that can probably be explained by the fact they now know where they are going. In the past they weren't certain. --jbeeeb 06:12, 15 February 2008 (PST)

  • Remember when Locke and Boone originally found the hatch, they had been searching for Claire for hours (and based on Locke's comment to Boone about "going back", they had really been going more or less into the same direction all this time), but when they returned to the hatch in later episodes, it was suddenly just an hour or so by foot, and by season 2, the Swan station seemed almost directly around the corner from the beach camp (I think they even said it was "about a mile away"). Distances on the island generally seem to shrink once the characters know how to get there. Reminds me of a joke: "My brother can run 100 meters in five seconds. He knows a shortcut."--Nevermore 09:50, 15 February 2008 (PST)

This is called cutting to the chase. Remember that Lost is a TV show, and having an hour of them walking around is rather boring. they will cut to specific scenes for the story while getting rid of useless walking scenes.

Screen Shots

I'm new to this, so feel free to move/fix/edit/remove them as needed --Mooga 21:09, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Name that faction!

So it seems there's a war shaping up on Lost. We don't really know who's on what side, but most of us have some idea. On one side: the Freighter 4(altho maybe they don't even know who they are working for), Naomi, Abbadon, and whoever is giving them orders. Most of us have assumed that it's either/or: Dharma, Widmore, Paik, Hanso, or any combination of those. On the other side, we have Ben and "the Others", Mittelos Bioscience, probably/maybe Jacob and the island itself. Further, it seems as though the 815 survivors are caught in the middle. I'm trying to keep it pretty general here. None of this stuff is clear or exact, just what I think most of us could agree on for the time being. So, I'm proposing a shorthand, nicknames for the two factions so it will be easier to write our theories going forward. Honestly, I think it will be a while before we find out who's pulling the strings. If we can use our nickname for one side or the other, it will stop people from having to use clunky, imprecise language like "Widmore/Dharma," etc. Could be Light and Dark, could be Good Guys and Bad Guys, could be anything. It's a way of acknowledging that we have some grasp of the situation even though we're not entirely clear on who the players are. What do you think?--bq 22:01, 14 February 2008 (PST)

  • I think it plays right into one of the main themes of the show. Who are "good" guys? Who are "bad" guys? Locke seems to be the leader of the "new" others, now holding their old friends at gunpoint. Even Hurley, perhaps the "purest" of the losties (except for Aaron of course) is now successfully lying and helping capture some of the "good" guys. Most disturbing though is that Sayid is working with Ben in the flash forward. Does this mean Ben is -- at least partially -- one of the good guys after all? The short of it is that there are no good guys or bad guys -- just a bunch of people playing the cards they are given. Hurley, for example, is given a choice by Locke, a sort of "you're either with me or against me" kind of thing. And he chooses to stay with him, even though he suspects there may be a downside -- a downside he quickly realizes when he agrees to be the bait. We saw in ep. 4x01 that he regrets going with Locke instead of Jack, and this is probably the beginning of that regret. There are not two factions. There is in-fighting within the losties, the Others, the freighters, and the characters in the flash backs/forwards. In fact there are as many factions as there are characters, each with their own goals, each with their own methods. Of course that is part of what makes Lost so much fun. --Litany42 12:35, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Sayid and Ben

I'm thinking, maybe Sayid has been working with Ben since before the crash. He would want to hide this information from the rest of the survivors and it would go a long way in explaining why we have gotten so little information about him thus far. If this is the case, it would explain why he told Rousseau that Nadia had been killed (this being the situation Ben was speaking of where his heart got in the way). Also, if they made a reveal like this it would suddenly give us a crazy new look into what is "actually going on here"... and we'd probably get a lot more Sayid. Cool. :) --Cbstrul

I had a similar inkling during tonight's show, but in order to pull it off, they'd have to make sure that all of his past actions could be justified in terms of what we've learned he's loyal to. You don't have to go too far back; if he was really Ben's man, would he have participated in the ambush at the beach? Of course, we know that Ben is a master manipulator, wheels within wheels, absoultely capable of pulling off a good long con, but if they want to reveal that someone from 815 is a mole, they'll have a lot of explaining to do.

I can't buy Sayid working for Ben and still beating the crap out of him in the Hatch.--HaloOfTheSun 00:16, 15 February 2008 (PST)
This is impossible. A) Ben had no way of knowing about the crash ahead of time. It was caused by Desmond failing to push the button, leading to the electromagnet ripping the plane apart. B) Even if somehow Ben did know about the crash ahead of time, there would be no way for him to know that Sayid would survive the crash. Remember, there were upward of 300 people on the plane, and less than 100 survived.
I had a similar thought, but my thought wasn't that Sayid had been working for Ben all along, but that he began being recruited by Ben sometime around when he had been in the hatch. I remember Sayid went quite overboard, almost emotional, in "beating the crap out of him"... perhaps that was actually the first instance where Ben got into Sayid's head. Then there was the time Sayid was tortured in the barracks, we really don't know much about what happened to him during that time. Clamshell 14:01, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I'm thinking that it's not actually entirely Ben; I'm thinking it's what Charlie is to Hurley, and (maybe) what Christian is to Jack, in the flash-forwards. A representative of the island. He says "You need to protect your friends," or whatever, whereas Charlie said "They need you." It's a weak connection, but it's not a totally unbelievable one.--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 01:16, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Elsa or...?

Sayid refers to her as Elza (with a German z, like tz) more than once. Are we sure it's spelled "Elsa"? Well, he also says "expresso" ("ecspresso"), when that type of coffee is named "espresso". -. Grillage .- 00:46, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Yes, Sayid's pronunciation is perfect in some ways, like when he says "privacy" on the golf course (upper-class British accent) but sucks for other words. It might be important to note though that in some cases he wants to convey a high-brow upbringing (like playing golf in the Seychelles), and in other cases he does not (like playing the tourist in Berlin). But as to the actual question, according to the ABC press release, her name is spelled "Elsa". [2] --Litany42 07:34, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Would an Iraqi learn American or British English? Merick 13:23, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I can't remember exactly, but I believe in earlier episodes Sayid was referred to as having some sort of connection to England. Maybe he was there as a military, or dreams about living there, I don't know. -. Grillage .- 02:22, 16 February 2008 (PST)
  • It used to be that many (most?) people from the Middle East -- and indeed Europe, Africa, and India -- tend to learn British English. This may be changing now though. Not sure how it works in Asia, though I suspect that Hong Kong is British English, and Japan is American. But the upshot is that it is not at all surprising that Sayid would speak with an English accent. --Litany42 06:56, 16 February 2008 (PST)

To answer your inital question. Elsa is a more or less common name. Not very modern though... Elza is not a german name at all. --NackteElfe 11:21, 16 February 2008 (PST)

Happy Valentine's Day!!

How about Sayid and Elsa snuggling in bed together and then shooting each other 2 minutes later? And it just happens to air on Valentine's Day?

Another pale blonde

So, again we see a woman who strongly resembles Juliet, Penny Widmore, Sarah Shephard, Emily Linus, Mary Ford and Sabrina Carlyle (and possibly Claire, Libby and mostly Shannon, who died the same way as Elsa). Are they building an archetype here? -. Grillage .- 01:59, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Ben's secret room, Bloopers?

Up for discussion about all of the stuff found in Bens room that was hidden behind the book case. Firstly the 20 GBP Note does not look like a current or old 20 GBP note. As it doesn't have a picture of Sir Edward Elgar whom appears on the old style of a 20 GBP note. Secondly the passport cover for New Zealand is marked as a maroon colour when it is in fact dark blue.--Shakey 02:31, 15 February 2008 (PST)

One of Bens passports has the name "Dean Moriarty", which is the main character in the book "On The Road".
I just added a blooper about one of the passports on the drawer Leo McAllister 02:48, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I can explain this! Firstly - it obviously won't be the most recent £20 note as the island timeline is 2004. As it now says in the article, this is an original Series E banknote - the first run of which, introduced in 1992, featured Michael Faraday. Come 1999 it had been extensively copied for forgeries and so was replaced with the Elgar note (also considered Series E), becoming the only note to be replaced with a new design within the same series. The upshot of this is that Ben's notes are five years out of date and, given the reason for the change, probably forgeries. Speednik 06:06, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Yes, I agree -- this note didn't look out of place to me, though the last time I was there was '95. However, I'm not sure this means forgeries. Perhaps the last time he was in England (or using GBP) was before the note was removed from circulation. A picture of the Michael Faraday note can be found here: [3] (scroll down). It also says that it was removed from circulation in 2001. --Litany42 06:39, 15 February 2008 (PST)
It's quite absurd to say that because it is a series D note, it is probably a forgery. That is like saying that lots of terrorists wear hats, therefore if you see a man in a hat it is probably a terrorist.--Chesebrgr 08:33, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Series E, but yes - fair enough. This was more an attempt at a humorous aside than a genuine theory otherwise I may have considered trying to work that comment into the main article as well. Your point is well taken, though. Speednik 09:26, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Actually, upon reflection, the passports are most certainly forgeries. You may be able to "collect" nationalities, but Switzerland is not one of them. I know it is almost impossible to get citizenship unless you are born there (and we know Ben is from Portland). Actually, I just checked it out, and you have to live there for 12 years, which I think is safe to assume that Ben hasn't... Forged passports don't mean forged money, though it does make it a possibility. I still think that the simpler explanation -- that Ben has cash on hand in the form of all major currencies -- is the more likely one.
They would not necessarly need to be forgeries but they may have been acquired through fraud. If you can forge or otherwise create the underlying records, getting a passport issued is not a problem. And large amounts of cash make everything easier. Dharmatel4 13:40, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I think it would be fairly easy for someone to find out what English money looks like, I'm sure they have plenty of researchers in the crew. I imagine the out-dated £20 notes are deliberate. Possibly it is a signifier that the stuff in the room has not been used for several years.Liquidcow 16:28, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I don't live in England, so I should ask this. When currency is taken out of circulation, it's no longer accepted over the counter, but banks will still replace them with valid currency for a long time after that (in many cases, in many countries). Is this the case in England? Can we assume Ben still has that money because he got it at a particular time (been to England, someone gave it to him) and it could still be traded in a branch and be useful that way? -. Grillage .- 19:56, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Yes that is also the case here in England. A Faraday note can be traded in over the counter at any bank or post office, as they are not legal tender now, but they haven't lost any of their value. You'd be hard pressed to find any. This note only stopped being legal tender in Feb 2001, so it lost time, only 3 years.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:08, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Time Shift

Based on the time difference from the 2:45:02 to 3:16:22, there is a time difference of 31 min 20 sec or 1880 seconds. If you lose this amount of time every day, then you would lose 11,436.67 min per 365 days. This works out to 7.94213 days per year or about 8 days (another instance of the numbers). It is unclear on if the loss of 31 min 20 sec is a set amount of time like a a time zone or if the time loss is constantly happening (i.e. every 10 minutes loses 31 min 20 sec). This could explain why some people don't seem to age. -- Platypus 03:54, 15 February 2008 (PST)

It can't be like a time zone. If it were then the two clocks would read the same time, since both would have entered the island's time zone and both would have been affected the same. It seems to me that time passes more slowly on the island, though this doesn't explain why Regina thought the probe had arrived at the beacon before it actually did. A combination of time passing more slowly and a different "time zone", would explain both the rocket's late arrival and the clocks being different. --Chesebrgr 06:16, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Regina wasn't tracking the rocket per se. Under "normal" physics of rocketry, if you know the speed and trajectory of the missile, then you can calculate exactly where the missile is without physically confirming its location. Regina was simply calling out where the computer was plotting the rocket, not tracking it on radar or whatever. The problem is, normal physics seemingly do not apply on this island. --Litany42 13:14, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • These numbers are not quite accurate because Daniel has not been on the island for a full day yet. The time lapse since he has been on the island seems to be 31 minutes. Is there any way to know what time Daniel landed (a time note on one of the phones, perhaps...)? We do know that the helicopter launched before sun-down and arrived after dark. Since it is "summer" on the island (if we assume the island is in the southern hemisphere) then it would get dark slightly later so close to the solstice. Based on this and based on the fact that the time on the island is currently 2:45, I would think that the time difference per day is closer to 40 minutes (perhaps 42 minutes?). But until we know exactly when the helicopter entered the island's influence and how far off-shore the influence starts, I don't think there is a way to accurately calculate this. --Litany42 06:35, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • What if the time shift is not on the physical, but on communications? Meaning the communication to the Freighter was delayed by an hour and the missile was launched at 3:15 and arrived at 3:16. And when Daniel communicated with the Freighter from 2:10 to 2:15, they received the communication at 3:10 till 3:15 when they launched the missile? I'm not sure how it accounts for the half hour delay though, as Daniel would have received the package at 3:15 and the clocks would have been synched.  :| It might account for all the detailed Oceanic 815 news reports that Mikhail's cabin was receiving so soon after it broke up over the island. --Squashua 08:37, 15 February 2008 (PST)
How does "delayed communications" explain a two-way communication in real time?--Nevermore 09:54, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Check out the movie Frequency, where a guy communicates with his dead father on a radio that allows him to talk to the past... Same principle could apply, where in island time, Dan is hearing communications from 31 minutes into the future, and 31 minutes into the future, Regina is hearing communications from 31 minutes into the past. Although, personally, I still support the "the island doesn't synch up temporally with the outside world" theory because it also explains Walt's aging. Jimbo the tubby 10:34, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Exactly -- beat me to it! However I think there are two different assumptions happening here. Some assume that the two clocks were synched just before the rocket was launched. Others (like myself) are assuming that Daniel's clock has not been synched since they left the freighter. We need to nail down the correct assumption before we can start measuring the time shift on the island. --Litany42 10:00, 15 February 2008 (PST)
$ \Delta t' = \frac{\Delta t}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}} \, $
Where:
$ \Delta t \, $ = the change in time for the freighter (29 seconds—Regina fired the payload at screentime 19:24 and reported contact with the beacon at screentime 19:53)
$ \Delta t' \, $ = the change in time on the island (1880 seconds)
$ c \, $ = the speed of light (299,792,458 meters per second)
$ v \, $ = the 'speed' of the island (which is kind of a weird thought).
If we solve for $ v \, $ we find that the island is 'traveling' at 299,756,788.5 meters per second or 99.99% the speed of light relative to the freighter. --Ninjatacoshell 09:29, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Check out my diagram to the right for a possible explanation for the results of Daniel's experiment.Kevrock 12:53, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Daniels experiment diagram

Diagram showing a possible explanation for the results of Daniel's experiment

There is another option in general relativity. A large enough gravity field associated with the Island could cause the time effect as well. It would require the Island to have an enormous mass but it gets around some problems with how the lsland and the freighter can be moving relative to each other without the distance between them increasing. Dharmatel4 09:53, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Or maybe it has something to do with the mysterious magnetic fields on the island. Maybe it's not so simple as that time goes by at the same rate everywhere, but it is affected by the strength of the magnetic fields at different locations. I don't know general relativity very well, but don't electromagnetic fields also affect space-time? MiF86 11:20, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Its actually the other way around. Since the speed of light is a constant, electromagnetic waves are unaffected by relativistic time effects. Thats why they can communicate without any lag between the freighter and the Island. I may not be remembering something, but I can't think of a standard physics way for a magnetic field to affect time. Gravity yes but not magnetism. Dharmatel4 12:19, 15 February 2008 (PST)
But remember, the light doesn't scatter right here...or something to that effect.
  • Scattering refers to direction, not speed. The speed of light is essentially a constant, but its directionality is not. Whether magnetism could affect this, I don't know. But whatever is happening, if light scatter is affected (being a wave) then radio waves should be affected too. Perhaps the Looking Glass station isn't a jammer after all, but a way to compensate for this anomaly on the island. When it is turned off, the island itself works the same as jamming equipment. In other words, perhaps Charlie actually turned on some sort of system instead of turning off a jammer. After all, we only have Ben's word on what that system does -- and that's not too believable. It would make sense that the underwater beacon to guide the sub in would be located here as well. --Litany42 12:51, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Electric and magnetic fields can't bend or scatter light because they're both linear effects, so an external field won't interact with the fields within a beam of light. However, I have heard that an extremely large magnetic field over a large distance contains enough energy to cause gravitational lensing, which can bend light. It certainly seems more likely that the time dilation was caused by gravity, rather than relativistic velocities, because the rocket wouldn't have been able to withstand the massive velocity required for it to move at a similar speed to the island. However, the question still remains about how the island doesn't have any effect on the rest of the world.
"Since the speed of light is a constant, electromagnetic waves are unaffected by relativistic time effects." Wait. Why is a Black Hole called a BLACK Hole? Because its gravity affects light. Relativistic time dilation (and length contraction) doesn't happen because the speed of light is constant. The explanation for why different observers always measure the same (constant) value for the speed of light is because of time dilation and length contraction. Burt Gummer 12:08, 16 February 2008 (PST)

A better explanation would be that the island is capable of creating multiple time-space and there is a slit that connects them to ours. This is why the helicopter must fly a fixed course (or it will go into another world?). In 2 different realities, Daniel simply called Regina at different time. The missile is from the time-space the islanders are in and Daniel is actually an intruder to this time-space, so their clock won't sync. The people on the helicopter probably lost the 31 minutes on their way in. The slit however, doesn't prevent real-time transmission of radio signals, since it might not be possible to change the speed of EM wave traveling at light speed. The time delay for the missile would be explained as follows: Daniel called the boat that he is from and the boat sent the missile and it landed at the time it should but in a different reality. Then Daniel in another reality called for the missile and it is pick up by another boat that is in sync with our reality and the missile lands here. Illustration:

Our Time: -30min     |         0             |+30min
Island time: -60min  |        -30min         |   0
Daniel: Form Our time|From 30 min later      |...
Boat:                |Contacted by our Daniel|Contacted by +30min Daniel and send the missile we see*
Missile:             |Landed when we heard "0"|Landed when we see it

(*)Note that the two Daniels requested the missiles at different time --Billc.cn 23:12, 15 February 2008 (PST)

  • Good theory. But wouldn't this mean that the missile would also be launched at +30 minutes though, and therefore reach the beacon when it is supposed to? As for what would happen during a course deviation, we already know from Desmond's attempts to leave the island that you just can't. No parrallel worlds involved. --Litany42 06:42, 16 February 2008 (PST)
Another example of the possibility of time moving slower on the island: note the age that Richard Alpert appears to be when he first meets with Ben in the jungle when Ben was a child. And now, Alpert looked the same age now that Ben is grown up.

Bet your bottom dollar...

Since the last episode, I've taken careful note of the pictures we see. There are two in Ben's house by the front door that are of note. One seems to be the same picture of Alex that he carries with him. But the other is of a grown woman with dark hair. Could this be Annie? --Litany42 06:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Hurley successfully lied...

Up until this point, we could always tell when Hurley was lying or otherwise up to something. He seemed to be getting the hang of deception now... To his credit though, he didn't seem to like it. --Litany42 06:51, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I totally agree with you, when he told Sayid & co. that they had left him behind...I believed him! It didn't occur to me that he was lying utnil Sawyer and Locke showed up...and yes, he didn't seem to like it. Thelordnyax 10:41, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Actually, he did con Sawyer into being nice (: btw, if you look at his expressions now that you know he's lying, you'll see they are a little diffrent than usual. --CharlieReborn 13:43, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Ben's man

any idea, who is ben's man on the ship? (and do you think it would be wise to create article about him/her?)--Running 07:43, 15 February 2008 (PST)

and maybe some article about the ship itself...?--Running 07:46, 15 February 2008 (PST)
The only people we know for sure are Regina and Minkowski, right? If Regina is trusted by the away team, maybe Minkowski is the Man on the Boat --Spikezilla 07:59, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I don't see Ben as one to have a person who isn't trusted to do his work for him. Seems like they don't trust Minkowski because Regina's doing her job.--Lonedog80 08:15, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Betcha anything it's Michael. That'd be sweeeeet. Jimbo the tubby 09:04, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I was going to say the same thing. Michael has only been gone for something like 30 days. I wouldn't doubt that he got picked up by the freighter considering he was in a boat not made for traveling large distances in the ocean. -- Nate 09:37, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I am quite certain that it is NOT Minkowski, from what we've heard he seems to be somewhat in charge of the freighter, so I don't think he's Ben's man on the boat...I would agree that Michael seems like a likely candidate.
You know I think you may be right... I bet we'll see one or more characters turn up on the freighter and come across Michael, maybe under a different name, and maybe there'll be a whole thing of him not wanting his cover blown.Liquidcow 16:31, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Harrold Perrineau (Michael) was listed in the cast list at the beginning of this episode.Key088 05:31, 17 February 2008 (PST)
That doesn't necessarily tell us anything other than that he will become a series regular. Regulars are often credited despite not appearing in an episode.
Harold's been listed for every Season 4 episode so far. As for making an article for the "man on the boat", I say let's wait. Until we know who it is, there's not nearly enough info to make it worth while. All we can really say now is "Ben claims to have a spy on the boat". --Gluphokquen Gunih 15:52, 18 February 2008 (PST)

The Bracelet

It sticks out in my mind the initals on Naomi's bracelet, when combined, are "NRG" - energy? Also, the style of the bracelet makes me think of those magnets that some people wear for supposed 'health benefits'. --Spikezilla 09:09, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I'm guessing that the N is for Naomi and the RG is the initials of whoever gave her the bracelet...and as far as I can tell, we haven't been introduced to anyone with those initials. Thelordnyax 10:48, 15 February 2008 (PST)
RG? Republican Guard? That would certainly spark Sayid's interest.--jbeeeb 11:57, 15 February 2008 (PST)
I thought of Radzinsky when I first saw the bracelet. However, in Season 2, the logs in The Pearl showed the letters "R.S.," so maybe Radzinsky's last name starts with an S, if in fact those letters mean his name? I don't know how much I believe the initials on the bracelet are actually him, but just saying... The-room 18:03, 15 February 2008 (PST)
How about Regina G_____?

Vet office, Dog Centric?

Does anyone think that this is a hint or relation to Wally Bole and his theories? Ben could be doing ANYTHING in this flash forward scenario and yet they choose a vet's office that is clearly centered upon dogs. I can't tell what the poster said (may have been in a different language), but it was there on the wall behind sayid as he entered the office. It looked pretty blatant. Any ideas?--Bonneville44 09:31, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I caught that poster as well, and I tried reading it, but it's in German. The-room 09:34, 16 February 2008 (PST)
All I can make out before it's out of focus are the last two lines: "die Gesundheit Ihrer Familie bedrohen." (threatening the well-being/health of your family). The poster you can see through the window in the door is just too blurred, I don't watch in HD. Roger 13:37, 16 February 2008 (PST)
It says "Wenn Parasiten Auch Die Gesundheit Ihrer Familie Bedrohen" ("If parasites are (also) threatening the well-being of your family"). I'am quite sure it's not authentic because there is no brand logo and the layout itself looks like its from the 60s. A friend of me works at vet's clinic in Germany and she hasn't seen a poster like this yet. Probably it's just a prop poster and doesn't mean anything. But at the other hand why design a poster if you can get others like this one everywhere for free without the efford of creating an artifical one.--NackteElfe 20:26, 18 February 2008 (PST)
I was waiting to see Vincent in one of those cages, haha... --Beardedjack 12:21, 17 February 2008 (PST)
I took it as Ben was at a vet's because it was a very low key place with some operating equipment. Ben and Sayid would have a much harder time using a doctor's office or hospital to sew him up without expossing themselves then a vets. --Gluphokquen Gunih 15:54, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Btw: Sayid could have gone to a hospital. By German law the doctor-patient confidentiality can't be ignored 'just' because of a bullet wound. The only exception would be if the patient appears to be a danger for the public. Even if the police would come to an hospital and ask specificly for someone treated for gun shot the doctor is not supposed to give the name up (but probably he eventually will). Anyway maybe Sayid nor Ben knew about the legal situation in Germany. ;) --NackteElfe 20:43, 18 February 2008 (PST)
  • Likely whoever it is that Sayid and Ben are targeting has better resources than local law enforcement, and the will to use them, i.e. if Sayid had shown up at an emergency room he would have been spotted. Even if he weren't in trouble with the police, the "bad guys" would find him there.

Time difference explained?

I think that the time difference have something to do with Time Dilation:

http://www.phy.olemiss.edu:80/HEP/QuarkNet/time.html

Here is an exerpt:

"It turns out that as an object moves with relativistic speeds a "strange" thing seems to happen to its time as observed by "us" the stationary observer (observer in an inertial reference frame). What we see happen is that the "clock" in motion slows down according to our clock, therefore we read two different times."

According to the formula provided (and if I calculated properly), the capsule must have travelled at 162455147m/s which is roughly 54% the speed of light to have produced a difference of 1880 seconds (31 minutes and 20 seconds).

They might be a LONG LONG way from home ^_^

Oh, and also it might me easy to make an island invisible if light bounce back weirdly on it...

EDIT: Damn! Ninjatacoshell beat me to it a few minutes before!

JesterX 09:33, 15 February 2008 (PST)

  • Scientists noticed this phenomenon in the early days of spacecraft. Clocks that returned to Earth were behind the "real" time on the ground. This fits in with Einstein's Theory of Relativity that says that time slows down as you approach the speed of light. This may be part of the answer, but as you pointed out the island would have to be a long way from anywhere, and you would have to travel half the speed of light to get there. The rocket definitely wasn't travelling that fast when it landed. I think instead that there is a "bend" in the time/space continuum around the island, so things cannot go "straight" to the island, hence the delay in time. Actually, this would fit in the "vortex" theory, and why the heading is so important to arrive at or leave the island. Try to get out at too sharp an angle, and you won't have any "forward" movement. Try at too slim an angle, and the vortex keeps you in. It's like those wishing well charity boxes at the mall -- you launch the penny and it spins into the vortex faster and faster until it falls out of the bottom. To get out, you need the follow the same path but in reverse. Which is why Daniel tells Frank to stay on course no matter what (like, hey, it's taking too long to get to the ship...). --Litany42 10:16, 15 February 2008 (PST)

No way that capsule was traveling at half the speed of light, for any duration of time, it would be vaporized. Merick 13:31, 15 February 2008 (PST)

If the time shift were indeed caused by a bend in the time/space continuum, wouldn't it also effect light and radio waves, and caused a significant delay in the telephone conversations? Clamshell
The speed of light is a constant. As long as the relative distance between sender and receiver doesn't change, there should be no change in delay on the signals. It can cause scattering and other changes in the signal but the delay is fixed. Dharmatel4 13:52, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Well, I'm no physicist, and I'm vaguely remembering my college physics courses. I thought there was something about gravity wells, and the like, slowing down light (and therefore time) as well. Maybe I watched too much Star Trek in college. Clamshell 14:18, 15 February 2008 (PST)
A gravity well can trap light, but it can't slow it down (under normal physics anyway). The speed of light has to be a constant. I found this on the web which is a useful explaination of curved spacetime and light. "To understand fully why a black hole can trap light but the light still always travels at constant velocity requires an understanding of the General Theory of Relativity, but the essential point is that the black hole curves spacetime back on itself, so that all paths in the interior of the black hole lead back to the singularity at the center, no matter which direction you go (an analogy in two dimensions is that no matter which direction you go on the surface of the Earth in a "straight line" (what mathematicians call a "geodesic" or a "great circle"), you never escape the Earth but instead return to the same point. Imagine extending that analogy to the 4 dimensions of spacetime and you have a rough explanation for why light travels at light speed, but cannot escape the interior of a black hole." A gravity well can however slow down time *without* slowing down light. Dharmatel4 15:04, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Day 100

Jack says it's been "100 days" since he watched a baseball game. Is that how long he's been away from the U.S. (94 days on the island plus ~one week in Sydney)? Or are we to believe this is Day 100?

It's unlikely that Jack took time to watch a ballgame while he was in Sydney looking for his father. Most people would round up or down, and 100 is a nice even number.

Further to that, would Frank notice any time descrepancy if time was moving slower on the island? And if so, why wouldn't he pipe up about it? --Litany42 10:19, 15 February 2008 (PST)

There is no way to reconcile it being day 100 in the current timeline. We know for sure that the end of DOC was on Day 88. And there are no big gaps where six extra days could fit. I would guess that Jack was either guessing or rounding up. Dharmatel4 10:27, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • He sounded pretty certain about "100 days" like he was forced to break the habit, which is why it seemed to me that he had been away from the US for 100 days, and hadn't watched a baseball game since. However if he is thinking about this, wouldn't he also realize that it is Christmas Eve? Maybe baseball is more important to him, but it is a little too pervasive in our society to ignore... I don't know. It just seems to me that the producers deliberately put "100 days" in there for some reason. --Litany42 10:42, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • They didn't pay any attention to thanksgiving and if it is day 100, they have ignored christmas and new years. I think its better to interpreate the hundred days as anything except the actual number of days on the Island because the alternative wrecks the consistant timeline the show has maintained through three seasons. Dharmatel4 11:07, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Exactly, there's absolutely no reason to assume that it represents the number of days on the Island, just that that is about how long ago since he saw a baseball game. -- Graft   talk   contributions  11:26, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Okay, for the record, I am *not* suggesting that they have been on the island for 100 days. The "Or are we to believe this is Day 100?" remark was tongue-in-cheek. However if Jack was in Sydney for 6 days, and they have been on the island 94 days, then this would equal 100 -- which works out to about right given the timelines. What I am suggesting is that I believe this seemingly off-the-cuff remark likely has some significance. Perhaps we just can't see it yet. Or perhaps it is a confirmation from the producers about what day it is. Do we know exactly how long Jack was in Sydney? I seem to remember "about a week" but I'm not sure. --Litany42 11:55, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Jack said 100 days, 94 on the island + 6 in sydney. Frank did not correct him because it actually HAS been about 100 days since the plane crashed. This ratio is close enough to the 15 hours Daniel has been on the Island and the 30 minutes he has lost.
You're all reading into this a bit too much. Lapidas doesn't question the "100 days" remark because he has no idea what Jack did before the crash. For all Lapidas knows, Jack's cable was out. Furthermore, while Lapidas seems to have the greatest connection to the crash of all the Freighties, would he really think of the time since the crash in terms of absolute days? ProjectHate 14:30, 17 February 2008 (PST)
  • Get used to people taking things to heart ProjectHate. Happens a lot. 100 days doesn't have to be completely accurate. It was my birthday a week ago. Technically it was 4 days ago, but it was last week, towards the end of the week, so I round it. It could be 90 days, it could be 110... 100 just sounds like a big figure. Don't take this one as a literal 100 days exactly  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:15, 19 February 2008 (PST)
  • I see what you are saying here, but I still believe that this is meant to be a literal 100 days. Jack is a surgeon; he is very precise. I also noted a hint of conviction in his voice, like he meant to say 100 days. Much like an ex-smoker might say "I can't believe it's been a hundred days since I had a cigarette." (A subjective view, I'll admit, and couldn't be seen as solid "proof".) But I think what seals the deal for me is that this conversation occurs seconds before the payload carrying the lost time clock lands at their feet. Time can be measured precisely, but in the end it is all relative. --Litany42 07:55, 19 February 2008 (PST)
  • FWIW, Australian television does not broadcast American baseball, so it's unlikely he would have been able to watch a game when he was in Sydney. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 20:46, 14 April 2008 (PDT)

Elsa's bracelet

Does anyone have a screenshot of Elsa's bracelet as she dies? Jimbo the tubby 10:36, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Here you go     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email  

4x03 braclets

Bracelets


You can also see this bracelet in the scene where they are getting ready for the opera. Did anyone notice it in the cafe? --Litany42 12:53, 15 February 2008 (PST)

She sports long sleeves, no bracelet visible. Roger 17:31, 16 February 2008 (PST)

German flag (no blooper)

just a bit of clarification on the flag - it isn't a blooper, the flag that can be seen when Sayid exists the bar is the German state flag, which may only be used by federal authorities, not private persons, it includes the German coat of arms, the civil (black-red-gold) flag doesn't. See Wikipedia --Starbuckzero 10:51, 15 February 2008 (PST)

But what was the Bavarian flag doing there? Sayid was in Berlin, which is to Bavaria what Washington, D.C. is to Texas.--Nevermore 11:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)
The state of Bavaria has a representation in Berlin, it's located in the Behrenstraße and also holds both flags, German and Bavarian, see the first picture on this page. However, the building looks different (3rd flag, different entrance, etc.), the location would match though, you can see the Fernsehturm (TV Tower) on Alexanderplatz in the background, if you were standing in front of the building you could see it too, as it's actually not too far from there (Google Maps --Starbuckzero 12:01, 15 February 2008 (PST)
  • Also Sayid couldn't have reached Potsdamer Platz before the reunification, because it was mostly in the Eastern part. The buildings that one occassionally sees in the background (like when Sayid enters the cafe where he meets Elsa) don't look much like Berlin. Due to a strict building code there are literally no highrise buildings in the center city.--Simakperrce 11:01, 15 February 2008 (PST)
But if it is a flash forward it is clearly after the reunification so he could reach it easily.--jbeeeb 12:22, 15 February 2008 (PST)
That's basically what I was saying. In the blooper info that since has disappeared from the page someone made a point that we couldn't know which era this scene was set in. Quite obviously it happens long after the fall of the wall. --Simakperrce 07:45, 16 February 2008 (PST)
Not to mention that the civil flag used today is the same as the one used before reunification, at least in West Germany. Only East Germany used a slightly different flag before reunification, and that is not the one used in the scene. Clamshell 13:37, 15 February 2008 (PST)
Slightly different, yeah. ;) Roger 17:26, 16 February 2008 (PST)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Germany.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_East_Germany.svg

Frank's Phone

Dan asks Frank to give him a phone in this episode, to call Regina. But didn't we see that Frank's phone was broken in "Confirmed Dead"? Was Dan just getting his own phone back? Confused...--Snake313 12:24, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I'm thinking its Naomi's phone given back to them by Jack. Dharmatel4 13:30, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Die Mauer

I've seen this in a couple of places on the wiki already, marked as a cultural reference (to the Berlin Wall). Is this really a cultural reference? To me, it's just a way of setting the scene: they needed a name for the coffee shop that would help indicate that it was in Berlin. It's no more a cultural reference than is the reference to Potsdamer Platz. Is there some book, movie, famous real coffee shop called "Die Mauer", that actually has some reason to be referenced in Lost?

On the other hand, I would be willing to see the term Die Mauer chosen for some sort of literary technique. A wall is a pretty strong literary symbol, perhaps of the current separation between the two groups of survivors. The choice of Berlin as the setting for Sayid's flashforward then serves a pretty good literary purpose: the history of Berlin parallels the on-island story of the episode, with separations, espionage, prisoner exchanges, etc. Much more fitting than if they had put the Economist in say, Paris or Milan. Clamshell 13:29, 15 February 2008 (PST)

You pretty much answered in your second paragraph why "Die Mauer" is a cultural reference ;-) BTW there is no such coffee place by that name in Berlin --Simakperrce 07:51, 16 February 2008 (PST)
I still disagree. That second paragraph is discussing its use as symbolism, not its use as a cultural reference. Every other cultural reference I've seen mentions the name of a book, or a character, or a movie, or some other work of art. This is referencing a landmark, and that's it.

The only cultural reference I could think of is the Pink Floyd album translated into German, but that seems like a stretch... unless its release in Germany was actually translated. Clamshell 15:03, 16 February 2008 (PST)

It wasn't, I can asure you :). Music is the exception though, the majority of movies and literature get localised and translated to attract the general German public. But with a successful foreign franchise the original versions reach the bookstores and theatres very soon after or even at the same time as the initial German release. Roger 17:17, 16 February 2008 (PST)
If the original language comes out first, chances are bookstores (at least those with a selection of foreign language titles) will have it before a localized version comes out even. Harry Potter would be a prime example of this. Many kids couldn't wait for the German translation to come out, so they got the English version instead.--Nevermore 13:01, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Headhunter

It's kind of funny Sayid tells Elsa this is his occupation. He's not actually lying, though he doesn't really mean he's looking for people to hire! --Andreabt 14:46, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Headhunter could also refer to the ancient practice of killing your enemy and taking their head. An interesting Headhunting reference in wikipedia mentions that it could be a "process of structuring, reinforcing, and defending hierarchical relationships between communities and individuals. Some experts theorize that the practice stemmed from the belief that the head contained "soul matter" or life force, which could be harnessed through its capture." This might play into the idea that he is trying to help protect one group from another group. --Platypus 19:04, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Lacking...

This season so far has been outstanding and they have done a much better job with the flashforwards than i thought they would, but i feel as though it is leaving out key elements that made the show great in the first place. Mainly I think that there is a lack of "connecting" things in Losties lives for example locke working at Hurleys box factory, as minor as that was it was still pretty cool how that worked out. Its little stuff like that that made me say WOW and keeped me hooked to begin with. And I know its harder to do that with flashforward rather than flashbacks, but it seems that the show is going in a whole different direction then what we have been used to.--ConnerXcountry57 14:48, 15 February 2008 (PST)

The show is changing, so it's natural to feel a bit apprehensive. No one can tell you whether or not the show is still as good as it was (although give it a while because I'm sure they'll come out of the woodwork to tell you why you're wrong and Lost is more amazing than ever). It's a decision left up to you. The lack of connections as you said are a problem several fans have been having, but remember that it's still just the 3rd episode of the season, and the only flashbacks we've had have been of the freighter people.

Each season has had an overall theme or two. S1 was about introducing the Island and our people. S2 was about the Hatch, the Button, and the connections between the characters. S3 was about the Others. S4 seems to be about this developing war and the rescue of the Oceanic 6. They're not going to keep giving you connections, we've seen that, it's time for something new.

The Oceanic surviviors know each other after they spent three months on the island together, so it'd be a little hard to maintain connections unknown to the characters. I mean, Jack visits Hurley at the psych ward; if this was a flashback, we'd have called it a "connection".--Nevermore 02:06, 16 February 2008 (PST)
Aaand I totally forgot Big Mike in "The Beginning of the End". And Abbadon visiting Hurley in the psych ward. You'd need to define what you consider a "connection" in terms of flash-forwards first before you complain about a lack of them.--Nevermore 13:05, 17 February 2008 (PST)
It would seem to me that the Sayid/Ben reveal from this episode would be considered a connection, Abaddon/Naomi would be in "Confirmed Dead"as well. I wouldn't say they are lacking this year, just a little different.--Hurley's Dad 13:33, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Jack/Hurley, Hurley/Abaddon, Abaddon/Naomi, Naomi's bracelet/Elsa's braclet, Elsa/Sayid, Sayid/Ben. Lack of connections? REALLY?? Theres more than ever!  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:20, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Dont everyone attack me at once, dang. ha just thought i would say what i thought.--ConnerXcountry57 11:52, 21 February 2008 (PST)

Missing portion of the synopsis

The synopsis isn't complete. It's missing the whole first portion of Locke's group in the episode where they come upon the grey dust on the ground (being unable to find the cabin) and the setup for Hurley's deception.

Sayid's Call

From the unanswered questions section:

'Who did Sayid call after meeting Elsa in Berlin, to say "I have made contact"? - it is not Ben.'

Can't think of a reason why it could definately not be Ben, in fact I can't think of anyone else it could be. Am I missing something? I will remove the last statement there.Liquidcow 16:33, 15 February 2008 (PST)

It was most likely Ben. Until we know who it was for sure, this is the likeliest candidate and must be assumed. His voice was obviously altered (by the actor or in post-production) a little so no one would immediately recognize his unique voice, just as it was in the last scene when he was in the same room as the audience until we saw his face. -- macosx 17:04, 15 February 2008 (PST)

I believe it is also Ben. The voice on the other end of the call was deep, like Ben's was in the vet office at the end. Basically, what the two guys above me said. The-room 17:59, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Swiss Passport

The name in the Swiss passport is Dean Moriarty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Moriarty , a reference to Jack Kerouac's novel On the Road.

I deleted this!!

"Although none of these errors would be totally out of place in some German restaurants, it's highly unlikely that a restaurant asking the steep prices as shown on the menu would make errors of this magnitude."

  • I deleted it from Bloopers and continuity errors, because it seems to imply that people who work at upscale restaurants are somehow smarter than their greasy-spoon counterparts. Whether you're in Germany or Sydney or Boston, people make mistakes, they forget how to write their language properly. It has nothing to do with the prices on the menu.--bq 22:35, 15 February 2008 (PST)
    • But i believe it is still there in other language versions :)

Don't take it too seriously because the menu is probably written by somebody who know little German. (combining nouns are taught on my third German class, so i doubt any German-speaker would make that mistake (if it is not intentional).) Anyway, it is rare to see spelling mistakes in menus of good restaurants.

      • Spelling mistakes in German restaurants happen all the time. This book features quite a few of them, some of them really of the "How the hell did no-one catch this?" variety.--Nevermore 02:58, 16 February 2008 (PST)
        • It doesn't matter whether upscale or not: NO German chef would ever write 'Grilltes' (instead of 'Gegrilltes') or 'Knobloch' (instead of 'Knoblauch').
          • Usually the chef doesn't write the specials on the board, the hostess with the "nicest" handwriting does it and typically she is not too bright (at least that's how I've seen done in America). Jackieboy 10:45, 16 February 2008 (PST)
            • Being German I must clarify that when someone writes Knobloch instead of Knoblauch its almost as bad as an american writing "choose cake" instead of "cheese cake". Knobloch is not a german word and doesnt even sound like Knoblauch, so even 2nd grader would be able to realize that. The same goes for the other mistakes. There are not common misspellings. --NackteElfe 11:12, 16 February 2008 (PST)
              • However, there are quite a few restaurants owned by people who aren't native speakers in Germany, and it's often in those places that you would encounter weird menus like "Putin Keule" ("Putin haunch") instead of "Putenkeule" (chicken haunch), "Schingen" instead of "Schinken" (ham), "Gordon Blue" instead or "Cordon Bleu" or "Tittenfish" ("tit fish") instead of "Tintenfisch" (squid, literally "Ink fish" in German). All of these are real examples from the book I linked above. So if the restaurant "Die Mauer" had non-native staff, I could actually see all these errors being possible.--Nevermore 12:57, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Is there a larger issue here? Why would they set a scene in Berlin, knowing that fans pick apart the details mercilessly, and make so many obvious mistakes in translation? I think the mistakes are intentional. I don't know why, but I suspect we will find out that the flashbacks/forwards are not what they seem to be. At the very least, they are severely limited by being from the point of view of just one character. I have a feeling that Rousseau's flashback will answer a lot of these questions.--bq 22:27, 17 February 2008 (PST)

ARGH. It's a TV production. They don't get everything right. They're limited to locations on Oahu. Desmond's flashback in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" was also full of errors according to British fans. Jin and Sun's flashbacks get criticized by Korean viewers. Scenes set in Australia oftentimes aren't 100% accurate either. And so on. It's a TV show. They're not perfect. No hidden subtext here.--Nevermore 01:35, 18 February 2008 (PST)
      • You sure about that?
        • Dude, were' talking about errors only native speakers would actually notice. Or care about. You do a Hollywood TV production with scenes set in Germany and try to get everything right, and we'rew talking again.--Nevermore 15:06, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Maybe the sign was spelled Knobloch instead of Knoblauch in hopes that someone would catch the error, and then connect the correct spelling with Chuck Knoblauch, who played second baseman for the Yankees, whom Jack mentions later in the episode. Far-fetched, but interesting coincidence.

Time difference on island and pager

The timers are off by approximately 31 minutes, 18 seconds.

maybe when elsa was paged by "the economist" he was on the island since he was 30 minutes early

seems unlikely but i just wanted to put it on the table

Interesting point there, you might be on to something. Probably belongs more in the 'theories' section though.Liquidcow 03:55, 16 February 2008 (PST)

German is difficult

Besides the errors on the sign, the actors, espacially Elsa, speak disturbingly bad German for a native speaker. Besides the accent there are some minor grammar mistakes.

I found the German easier to follow than, say, Jennifer Garner's inane babbling every time Alias had an episode set in Germany... Might be because Elsa's actress is Dutch, it was easier for her to get the pronunciation mostly right. The German dialogue was better than what I've heard on most other shows... Er, don't get me started on Giles doing an incantation in German on an episode of Buffy...--Nevermore 03:22, 16 February 2008 (PST)
Ok the accent is bad, but I don't know why the translation of the script is so bad in the first place. Obviously a non native german wrote that text. No grown up would use words like "geheimes Versteck" (secret hidingplace). It sounds very childish and made me laugh very hard when I heard it. Also the subtitles do differ quite a bit. --NackteElfe 11:17, 16 February 2008 (PST)
I'm with you on this Elfe, it was a great LOL moment. ;) Roger 13:52, 16 February 2008 (PST)
May fit here: What did you understand, when Elsa phones her boss and the subtitle says "No. He had no idea"? I understood "Er wird die Name jetzt nicht aufgeben.", but that doesn't make sense. --StNexus 13:13, 16 February 2008 (PST)
You caught it correctly. The subtitle did not fit the spoken words there. Roger 13:52, 16 February 2008 (PST)
What does "Er wird die Name jetzt nicht aufgeben" mean, and what did the subtitles say it meant? Robert K S 14:03, 16 February 2008 (PST)
"Er wird die Name jetzt nicht aufgeben" is actually wrong, you would say: "Er wird den Namen jetzt nicht preisgeben"(He won't reveal the name now) or even better "Er wird mir den Namen jetzt nicht sagen"(He won't give me the name now). "Einen Namen aufgeben" is the direct translation of "to give up a name" but it sounds arkward in German, in that context it would mean "to abandon a name"; "einen Namen preisgeben(reveal)" sounds more natural. Translated the subtitle "No. He had no idea." is "Nein. Er hatte keine Ahnung." and although "idea" means and is written the same in German in this context "Ahnung"(notion) is the usual expression. Roger 17:00, 16 February 2008 (PST)
Was there any reference that said she was actually supposed to be a native speaker? Just because she lives and works in Berlin, doesn't make her a native of Berlin. Clamshell 15:08, 16 February 2008 (PST)
I think the biggest two hints that she was "supposed" to be a native Berliner was that her name was a German one and that she didn't comment to the contrary when Sayid implied that she was when he said that he loved Europe because everyone spoke English. Robert K S 15:59, 16 February 2008 (PST)
  • In that case, she spoke pretty good English for a non-English speaker... --Litany42 21:42, 16 February 2008 (PST)
I can say from personal experience that while many Berliners can speak English with equal or better fluency than Americans, their accents tend toward UK pronunciations/inflections. I'll chalk up these bloopers to the exigencies of television production and suspend my disbelief. I think Elsa was intended to be a well-educated German character and any other inconsistencies were unintentional production errors. It's probably not easy to cast a gorgeous English-speaking German actress who can get to Hawaii on a week's notice. Robert K S 21:51, 19 February 2008 (PST)
I wouldn't have minded seeing Franka Potente... Didn't she star on some episodes of "The Shield" in 2007?--Nevermore 08:43, 20 February 2008 (PST)

I guess they mixed up something. Here's a transcript with the correct and subtitled translation.

Spoken line Correct translation Subtitled translation
Na was machst du denn? Du solltest mich doch um 10:30 anrufen, nicht um 10. What are you doing? You were supposed to call me at ten-thirty, not ten. You were supposed to page me at ten-thirty.
Nein, ich habe ihn nicht umgebracht. No, I didn't kill him. No, I didn't kill him.
Er wird nichts sagen. He's not going to talk. He's not going to give up the name now.
Warum sollte ich ihn am Leben lassen? Why should I keep him alive? Why should I keep him alive?
Er wird den Namen jetzt nicht aufgeben. He's not going to give up the name now. No, he had no idea.

Everything else after that is correct. --MacCutcheon Talk? 17:06, 16 February 2008 (PST)

"Umgebracht" is quite an emotional and dramatic expression in that context, you wouldn't say that, that's just like saying 'I didn't slay him.'. You would say "getötet"(kill). Additionally, in the restaurant Elsa asks "Wohin möchten Sie gehen?"(Where would you like to go?) - that sounds odd seeing that they've just met. You wouldn't talk like that, that sounds like an invitation in German. You would rather say something along the lines of "Wo wollen Sie denn hin?"(Where do you want to go?) or "Wonach suchen Sie denn?"(What are you looking for?). Roger 17:50, 16 February 2008 (PST)
What I meant with "correct" is that these lines are subtitled more or less correctly. Apart from that she's either supposed to be a non-native speaker or they didn't work too hard on it. From what I've heard Jin's Korean isn't good either, so the latter is likely the case. --MacCutcheon Talk? 03:55, 17 February 2008 (PST)
Being German I can only confirm that. Really bad way of talking (as in most TV shows/Movies though. Ever seen "Die Hard 3" in English? Hihi). But already in the flashbacks it was made clear that the makers of the show didn't cast native speakers for the different countries: hardly any of the characters that were supposed to be Aussie had anything near an Australien accent but rather really bad fake accents. All my mates here in Melbourne confirmed that. Same for the menu discussed further up, definitely no German wrote these sentences. Dreamingof8a 04:50, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Naomi's Stretcher in helicopter blooper (there is no stretcher)

In the blooper sections someone added that her "stretcher" is visible. However she was not placed in the helicopter on her stretcher, she was placed on a bench inside the heli and her body is not visible when it takes off, nor is the grey blanket covering her. Should I just remove that section of the blooper talk or what? Should I worry about the person adding it back? Hopefully they see this before I bother editing :) Thanks ahead of time for anyone who can help me figure out the right way to go about editing that section as it's pretty clear Naomi is not in the back even if Sayid is hidden. If needed I can upload HD screens of this. Congested 19:09, 16 February 2008 (PST)

You should be good to go. If you're simply removing content from a page, just provide a reason in either the edit summary or at the talk page; if you're clarifying the content in the article, most of it will speak for itself and usually just a simpler edit summary will suffice. Regarding the blooper, it seems clear that Sayid is just on the other side of the helicopter, but are you saying that we should be seeing Naomi's body from that camera angle? I can't remember where they put her in the helicopter. -- Graft   talk   contributions  19:32, 16 February 2008 (PST)
yes i'm saying we should see her... hopefully these help: 4x03 heli 01, 4x03 heli 02, 4x03 heli 03 Congested 19:51, 16 February 2008 (PST)
whatever i updated it. I removed the stuff about Sayid not being seen, though I still think part of him should have been visible in the shot showing the side of the heli he was in Congested 01:23, 20 February 2008 (PST)

Sox vs. Yankees

*Yankee fans are always upset when the Red Sox win. The Red Sox are pure evil and every win by the force of evil is a loss to Yankee fans. While 2004 was the worst, 2007 was also bad.

  • Being from Boston, I have to defend my team. It is the Yankees, if anyone, who are the "Evil Empire" It's easy if you live in BOS or NY to hate the other team. The Red Sox on Lost have always been a metaphor for hanging onto the pain of failure because it's easier and more comfortable than reaching for the win. This is why it's important overall to our people that the Red Sox won in '04. But what if they're suggesting something else? Red Sox fans hate the Yanks, Yankees fans hate the Sox. One side accuses the other of cheating, changing the game, being evil, having no soul, etc. Even tho I am a Sox fan, I can see that the two teams are really just two groups of athletes at the top of their game who play hard and play to win. They're really more alike than they realize. Given what's been happening lately, with the 815 survivors split and these new "baddies" going after Ben, maybe they're trying to make a point about how easy it is to dehumanize your enemy. --bq 11:16, 17 February 2008 (PST)

P.S. A-Rod is a tool.

  • What? i cant hear you through our 26 world championships.
    • Interesting you would defend the team but not the man believed by some to be the best player in the game. Perhaps even New Yorkers know he is a tool.--bq 22:30, 17 February 2008 (PST)
      • A-Rod is the best player in baseball and attracts more attention than any player in baseball. His activities are disected more than anyone elses and he often puts his foot in his mouth. On your other point -- RELAX! I put in the "evil" reference because it ends up bringing out the natural whining and inferiority complex in the soul of every Red Sox fan, and that amuses me. Christian Shephard's line about the "Red Sox will never win the World Series" is a hint to the charcters and the viewers that things do not always turn out as we expect them to. Our fate is not predetermined. (And of course, that there is no God, because God would never let the Red Sox win. --- relax! a joke! again!)

Unanswered questions - Sayid's Flashforward / Ben

Under the section "Unanswered questions - Sayid's Flashforward" in the article a question is asked; "Is Ben classed as one of the Oceanic Six who got off the island? Or did he leave of his own accord separately?" It would be most unlikely that he's one of the Oceanic six because he didn't travel with the Oceanic flight 815. I think this question should be removed from the article! / Dreamingtree72 12:28, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Agreed. This question has pretty much been asked in a dozen other places as "Who are the Oceanic Six?" I think that this is somewhat redundant, as well as being unlikely. Jimbo the tubby 12:40, 17 February 2008 (PST)
I made this change to the article. / Dreamingtree72 13:21, 17 February 2008 (PST)
Although these comments are likely right, give the media's (and the public's) tendency to short-form everything, Ben could still be one of the Oceanic 6 because it is simpler and easier to say than "Oceanic 5 plus one guy who was already there, but was rescued a the same time." --Litany42 05:30, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Wouldn't it be more likely that Ben would use another way to leave the island? Apparently he leaves the island in some way without someone else knowing it, and that would not be with the submarine. And if the people at the boat would get him they would most likely kill him. And Ben is not on the passenger list at flight 815 so wouldn't media think that would be strange?! / Dreamingtree72 05:53, 18 February 2008 (PST)
To me this question seems too specific and is already accommodated under 'who are the Oceanic 6?'. Maybe it's just my point of view, but Unanswered Questions surely means questions that are specifically raised by the episode, rather than theories raised as questions.
Exactly, thank you... I think that's what the unanswered questions sections are starting to become and it's getting really frustrating because you end up with really random questions that aren't at all supported by the shows, or questions that are really just wild speculation, slightly modified to appear as a question. Jimbo the tubby 08:56, 18 February 2008 (PST)
So does this mean that the question, if Ben are one of the Oceanic six or not, should be in the articles unanswered questions or not? Maybe a vote would be suitable?! / Dreamingtree72 12:58, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Its generally a bad idea to have any questions as to if a specific character is one of the six. I dont think a vote is necessary. Dharmatel4 20:13, 18 February 2008 (PST)
I think we seem to have come to a good justification for removing it. As above it is a bad idea to have such specific question not directly raised by the episode. Otherwise there would be millions of questions like 'Is Locke one of the Oceanic 6?' 'Is Claire one of the Oceanic 6?' etc etc. 'Who are the Oceanic 6' covers all that in one question, and is directly raised in the show.Liquidcow 05:57, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Sayid "washing his hands"

After Sayid "makes contact" and informs his superior such, he tosses his cell in the trash. He proceeds to wipe his hands clean with snow/ice. What is the purpose of this? ProjectHate 14:28, 17 February 2008 (PST)

My strong guess is that he indeed does just that: wipe his left hand clean with which he held the phone. Washing his hands of it, so to speak, as he just sealed his victims fate by talking to his employer which he reluctantly does dirty deeds for. Roger 10:12, 18 February 2008 (PST)

The Payload

Why would the people on the frieghter only put a clock in the payload are they aware of the time difference?--ConnerXcountry57 21:45, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Likely Daniel has some idea that the Island has some unique properties re time and space. He probably designed a series of experiments before he arrived.

"do the pager beeping 30 mins early and Daniel's experiment connected?"

No. Data is sent from the island to the ship instantly, if it had been effected it would have taken 31 minutes for Regina to hear Daniel's first words in their conversation. in much the same way data to a pager will be sent instantly.

Additionally the pager is not on the island but many, maybe even many many months later in Berlin, Germany. Plus both persons on each digital end of the pager are in Berlin as well. No, no connection, really... Roger 14:20, 18 February 2008 (PST)
May not be related per se, we sure can't say that at this point. But it's indeed an intentional juxtaposition of ideas, and even more considering one is in present time and the other is in the future. I just added it in "Literary techniques". -. Grillage .- 19:18, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Digital clocks, the Bible, and some Back To The Future

This from EW's Lost review (and not originally by me, but copied from a forum). Maybe it should be put to discussion?

  • They've stipulated correlations between the times on Daniel's clocks and Bible scriptures -- Daniel 2:45 and 3:16.
  • Daniel 2:45 is when the exiled Daniel earned a spot in Nebuchadnezzar's court by interpreting a dream concerning the future of Babylon and how the fourth kingdom will be a divided kingdom.
  • Daniel 3:16 is when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to abandon their religious beliefs and bow before a false idol, and therefore were thrown in the fiery furnace, but were saved by God.

Also, the scene when the two clocks are shown seem to be a reference to Back To The Future, when Michael J Fox (or Doc?) compares a clock that time-travelled and one that stayed put. I'm not adding the reference pronto because maybe it's just me, I don't know. But I'm quite sure it's not accidental. We've seen homages like that before on Lost. -. Grillage .- 18:24, 18 February 2008 (PST)

  • Well, Daniel 2:45 seems to be coming true - the fourth season started off with the "kingdom" of the losties dividing. As for 3:16 -- not sure about that one. Perhaps Jack is refusing to bow to faith, and therefore is thrown into his own hell as we saw during TTLG? --Litany42 07:27, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Apophenia

This was removed from "Recurring themes" (and was not originally posted by me) under the allegation of apophenia (in general terms, "seeing something only because you want to see it, when it's not necessarily there"):

  • The apparent time inconsistency between the two clocks in Faraday's experiment is 31 minutes. 3+1 = 4, while 15+16=31 and 23+8=31. (The Numbers)

I'd discuss this allegation, considering we only have those six numbers to look for and that three (apparently reasonable) matches would probably be more than a coincidence on this show. What do you think? -. Grillage .- 19:13, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Its generally a bad idea to look for the numbers indirectly. If you start allowing addition/subtraction/etc to find the numbers, we will end up with mountains of useless numbers trivia all over the place. Dharmatel4 19:54, 18 February 2008 (PST)
I do agree we should never stretch. Is that a stretch? Not being sure is actually the only reason why I raise the question. It has been done before, and these now are too many and too close to the essence of the Island (its delay related to the outside world, perhaps) to be promptly dismissed as apophenia, I guess. Go figure... -. Grillage .- 22:15, 18 February 2008 (PST)
  • I think we all know that there will be numerous references to Hurley's numbers throughout the whole show, and that we will probably find some that aren't even there, but they're so common that they hardly seem worth commenting on every single occurrence. We know that the numbers are a crucial element of the overall mythology, but each occurrence doesn't need to be picked apart, at least not until we're able to see more of the Big Picture... --bq 23:23, 18 February 2008 (PST)
Anything that involves adding or subtracting I think is out, not only is it a case of apophenia, but because the numbers are small and so close together it's usually pretty easy to get to at least one of them from any other unrelated number. I do think that it counts that the time in 24hr format would be 15:16:23, I mean there you have three of the numbers in sequence. However, I do sort of agree that every occurence doesn't need to be picked apart. I seem to recall that the writers said that the numbers aren't that important to the story, which I think is kind of lame but I think it's just meant to be like an inside joke really.Liquidcow 06:07, 19 February 2008 (PST)
  • Yes, the 15:16:23 is definitely worth noting and wouldn't be a case of apophenia, IMHO. And although I wouldn't refer to it as "an inside joke", I think I know what you are saying. The numbers were a key plot device at the end of season one and throughout season 2. Now that we've moved on to bigger (and better?) things, the numbers are an interesting side attraction. The numbers are still integral to the story, and I hope that the whole Valenzetti (sp?) Equation thing gets tied up at the end. But the storyline is no longer hinging on the numbers. --Litany42 07:20, 19 February 2008 (PST)
  • I have wrestled with the possibility that there is a sub-set of numbers that flows like an undercurrent in this show. For example, the number 9 is quite prominent (108/12=9 is one instance) and now we have the Oceanic 6. The number 31 could fall into this category too. But ultimately you need to ask yourself what importance the numbers have to the plot. The original numbers, for example, were on the hatch, were the numbers that Hurley used to win the lottery (and ultimately get on the plane to Australia), etc. Then they were the numbers that had to be entered into the computer. Then finally we found out about the Valenzetti Equation -- which led us to a new plot twist involving the Dharma initiative. The numbers moved the story along. However, the plot is no longer driven by numbers, which in my mind means there is no sub-set of numbers -- not one that is important, anyway. In fact, I think that because the payload was 31 minutes ahead of the island clock instead of 4 or 8 or 42 minutes means that we are supposed to look at something else, and not the numbers, for the answers. --Litany42 07:20, 19 February 2008 (PST)
  • In mathematical terms, every integer can be expressed as a sum and/or difference of those four numbers, because 16-15=1 so just add (16-15) any number of times and you can come up with any number desired. If you add it up four times, you can replace four occurences of it with a 4, likewise for 8, 23 and 42. Additionally, for a 1-digit number, the odds of one of the numbers appearing are 20%. For a 2-digit number, it's 39%. For a 3-digit number it's 63%. And it just gets higher. So not only are most sums apophenic (is that a word?) but every time someone highlights one of the numbers as appearing in a sequence, it really tends to irk me. Although cases like 15:16:23 are definitely significant, I feel that we should ignore most sums of numbers with the exception of really evident ones like 108. Jimbo the tubby 17:41, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Bearings

Is there a tie-in to (Live Together, Die Alone) when Ben told Micheal that if he followed a compass bearing of 325, he would be able to get off the island, and when Daniel tells Frank "be sure that you follow the same exact bearing that we came in on"? I think the potency of the parallelism is only strengthened by the time dilation business, especially considering that Daniel was weirded out by the loss of 31 minutes, and that he repeated himself, just like Ben. --Filefrog 20:59, 18 February 2008 (PST)

I'd go with this in "Episode references", maybe, but not enough for "Literary techniques", I'm afraid. The new line is too close to the old one, so it could be easily seen as a reference. -. Grillage .- 22:17, 18 February 2008 (PST)
This is all right on the edge of theory. It has to be carefully worded to be an episode reference. Try not to make any conclusiosn. Dharmatel4 23:05, 18 February 2008 (PST)

Ben's voice

Didn't anyone have the impression that Ben's voice (before he was revealed to us) sounded exactly like Jacob's voice in The Man Behind The Curtain? Could this also have been the voice of Carlton Cuse then? If so, then do you think it's just a coincidence? I say "Don't mistake coincidence for fate" --Skyshadow 02:00, 19 February 2008 (PST)

No it was definitely Michael Emerson's voice, he was just talking at a lower pitch to try and disguise who it was before the reveal... I'm pretty sure most of us recognised it instantly tho.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:25, 19 February 2008 (PST)
Yeh even before he came on screen I could tell it was Michael Emerson. Either he was talking in a lower register or they had done some post-production on his voice to make it sound a bit deeper in order to make it less obvious it was him, but it definately was Michael Emerson.Liquidcow 06:01, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Jack says "Good Locke" to Sayid, instead of "Good Luck"

One main thing about Lost is that the writers don't waste any scenes. Towards the end of "The Economist", Jack hands Sayid a rifle right before he gets on the helicopter. The scene is pointless unless you notice two things. Jack says "Be careful" to Sayid. Sayid response with, "I don't have to talk you out of coming". Jack then says, "As much as I like helicopter rides, I think you got this one under control." Then, as if something clicks in Sayids head, he makes a clever smirk and ask Jack to "wish me luck", as if Sayid is about to play a mindgame with Jack. It appears that Jack says, "Good Luck", but if you listen closely, he really says "Good Locke". Sayid uses a mindgame trick he probably learned from the Republican Guard, and tricks Jack into making a "Freudian Slip" by saying "Good Locke". This tells Sayid that Jack is still focused on Locke and revenge; even more than getting off the island. It continues the theme that Jack still can't "let go". Watch Sayids facial expressions throughout the scene. You can tell he's being clever about something. Plus, the scene would be pointless to have in the show unless this was the case.--U2bono23 10:07, 19 February 2008 (PST) --U2bono23 10:08, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Pointless if you count the interaction of two of the main characters as pointless. Pointless unless you count this little conversation as an important insight into Jacks relationship with Sayid and his milehigh trust in him. This is "I do everything myself because I only trust myself"-Jack trusting Sayid in meeting up with the supposed killers of every single living being on the island - leading a one-man A-Mission. Trusting a man who we know will later kill for Ben, Jack's second to last archenemy. That's an important scene for the viewers. And besides that, if I want I can hear Jack say "Good look." That's simply a example of pareidolia, the phenomenon of seeing/hearing significant things in something ordinary. I doubt the Republican Guard teaches the subtle method of how to induce freudian slips in people to learn what they realy think. They teach torturing for that, don't they. ;) That's a good analysis though. Roger 13:30, 19 February 2008 (PST)

15 hours?

How did we come up with the '15 hours', referring to the time spent on the island by the freighties? Was their something I missed. I like the idea, stated in economist/theories, that the watches/clocks/stopwatches were set by daniel before he left the boat. That would put their time on the island at 12 hours.

Day 92?

In the enhanced version of this episode, it mentions in the beginning that the day when Daniel performs his timing experiment is day 92 which is different than what the boards have been referencing. --Platypus 19:20, 22 February 2008 (PST)

betrayal is homage to Empire Strikes Back

In the enhanced version of this episode, Hurley's betrayal of Sayid and Kate pays homage to Empire Strikes Back when Lando betrays Han Solo. -- Platypus 19:23, 22 February 2008 (PST)

Berlin - opposing sides meet

In the enhanced episode, Berlin is the perfect location as east meets west and two opposing sides meet. This is mentioned just as Sayid is revealed to be working with Ben. -- Platypus 19:25, 22 February 2008 (PST)

"Follow the exact same bearing..."

Maybe this is just a mistake: If Frank follows the exact same bearing that he came from, he would actually be moving AWAY from the freighter. To put it in other words. If they boat was dead-north from the island, he would have come to the island with a bearing of 180(south). If he leaves the island and follows a bearing of 180 he would still be moving south. He would need to follow a bearing of 0 to find the boat again (assuming it's stationary)... unless the boat has actually half-circled the island.

He means to leave via the same route he took to come in. Jimbo the tubby 11:04, 25 February 2008 (PST)

The Orchid video's bicycle?

As the Orchid video isn't considered a spoiler anymore (no spoiler alert tag), I feel free to discuss the subject.

When Sayid, Kate and Miles are about to enter the house where Hurley is "tied up", a broken bicycle can be briefly seen lying on the ground. As in Lost, there is usually no place for coincidence, it is very likely that this is the same bicycle as the one seen (upside down) in the Orchid orientation film. Maybe it could be added in the trivia section.--Oliverdevor 14:30, 27 February 2008 (PST)

The grounded bicycle in "Eggtown" looks new, with shocks and new-style handlebars. The bicycle in the inverted film is a period bicycle from several decades ago. Robert K S 18:44, 3 March 2008 (PST)

There are Whispers when Sayid walks into the restaurant

Has anyone else noticed the whispers that can be heard after Sayid walks into the restaurant and before he meets Elsa?

--Ememem 23:49, 2 March 2008 (PST)ememem

Are the whispers speaking German? If so, are you sure it's not just the sound designer's "German cocktail party crowd ambiance" track that he pulled out of his royalty-free audio samples library? Robert K S 00:19, 3 March 2008 (PST)
No, they didn't sound like German to me, and it was on top of the background noise. I rewound and listened three times and it really sounded like the ethereal whispers you hear elsewhere in the show. --Ememem 08:03, 3 March 2008 (PST)ememem
  • I hear what you are talking about - but it's the song playing in the background. The female vocalist has a whisper-like vocal delivery. -- Graft   talk   contributions  19:24, 3 March 2008 (PST)

When did Elsa speak French?

It says that in the trivia, but I only remember her speaking German. Robert K S (talk) 15:35, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

I was thinking the same thing myself... Jimbo the tubby 15:42, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

She only spoke German. Why would she be speaking French in Germany? It should be removed.--Baker1000 16:22, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

Alex & Karl

Did any one notice that both Alex and Karl are played by stand-ins in this episode? I noticed it the other day. They problably did it because they were just walking through the jungle. Should we add this to trivia or production notes? -- LostCloverfield42  Talk  14:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Main image change

4x03 Sayid crying

New main image

Pictogram voting support (Kdc2 17:02, March 30, 2010 (UTC))

Pictogram voting oppose Not bad but no becuase of the stupid black square on the right half. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  22:21, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting oppose I agree with Czygan, the black sqaure is bad. But even so, I like the current image and I don't think it needs to be changed.--Baker1000 23:17, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

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