Talk: Oceanic Six

General

The Oceanic 6 refers to the six survivors, of Oceanic flight 815, that were rescued/taken back to the real world.--Aquakingman 18:47, 31 January 2008 (PST)

The six surviors are Kate, Jack, Hugo and three other unknown survivors of Oceanic flight 815. --Aquakingman 18:47, 31 January 2008 (PST)Aquakingman

Kate is not a confirmed member of the Oceanic 6. We know she is off the island, but with her past is likely in hiding and would not do favorably as a member of a celebrity group such as this. More than likely, she is part of the secret Jack asked Hurley about "telling". Suggest having categories for "possible members" and "confirmed members"--Hurley's Dad 22:30, 31 January 2008 (PST)

Kate is a confirmed member because Jack talks in terms of "we" in Looking glass with her. Any assumptions are really dangerous to make and should be made in theories. Dharmatel4 22:38, 31 January 2008 (PST)

Don't you disprove your own point there?! You're assuming that a casual use of 'we' confirms that Kate is part of the 'Oceanic Six', a very well known group. There's no proof of that- Kate may be one of "we" in terms of being one of the survivors, but that doesn't mean she is a member of the Oceanic Six.

Also, think about the circumstances under which Jack and Kate met at the end of the season... in dark, in a quiet/dead location outside the airport. It's the kind of place they'd meet if Kate was in hiding! I say remove Kate from the 'confirmed' list, given that there's been no confirmation at all!--Chocky 08:49, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Kate is one of the six. You can make up whatever weird conspiracy stuff you want to the contrary. but Jack uses "we" in ways at the end of last season that prove that she is one of the six. Dharmatel4 17:41, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Weird conspiracy stuff? Come on. It needs a weird conspiracy for her to BE one of the Oceanic Six! Jack using "we" means absolutely nothing- he could have meant "we" as "the people who left the island", not "we" as "The Oceanic Six". There's a very important difference. There are three of us that have discussed (in detail) why we think she is not- your reaction is undo our edits and basically just say "yes she is". Any chance of addressing the points raised first?!--Chocky 17:46, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Who is "our"? I reverted your edits because you removed Kate and because you started defining what Oceanic Six means beyond what was said. As far as I can tell, I've been making my case in multiple messages on this page going back to yesterday. Jack's conversation at the end of last season makes it clear whats going on with Kate. As far as I can tell, the discussion seemed to be how it was "impossible" based on an assumption about Kate off the Island. Dharmatel4 18:01, 1 February 2008 (PST)

"Jack's conversation at the end of last season makes it clear whats going on with Kate."-Dharmatel4 --- Well, let's check the transcript. In reference to leaving the island, both Jack and Kate use the first-person plural pronoun "we", which means that they consider themselves to both be in a shared group of people, those who have left the island, and that fact is obvious. In reference to the "golden ticket", the only element of the story that would directly tie someone to what we now call the Oceanic Six that occurred in their conversation, Jack uses the first-person pronoun "we", but Kate does not and, further, Jack does not use a second-person pronoun in order to suggest Kate is in the same group. This simply means that there is a group of people, that includes Jack, that received a "golden ticket". Kate's inclusion or exclusion from this group in undefined. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's not speculation. It's the English language. Vegan T-Rex 20:53, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Well, so far on this page, myself, Hurley's Dad, Vegan T-Rex and HaloOfTheSun have suggested that Kate is not a member of the Oceanic Six. What exactly is the assumption made about Kate off the island? The only one I can think of is that she is still a wanted criminal, and thus would not want to be publicly revealed- I don't think that's an un-reasonable assumption?

Also, the changes I made to the page more accurately reflect what has been said about the Oceanic Six. They are NOT necessarily the only survivors, they are just a group that are known publicly, all of whom are involved in lying about what happened on the island. We do not know any more than that.--Chocky 18:05, 1 February 2008 (PST)

"who have collectively become famous as survivors of Oceanic Flight 815" You say that which is wrong and then you try to say something else after that which seems to contradict it. Why do you demand that we have to say that they "became famous as survivors"? As far as the rest, I don't care how many people you claim that you are speaking for. You and your assumptions are wrong. Dharmatel4 18:10, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Yes, I'll admit, saying that they were all survivors of 815 was incorrect. As for acknowledging that there are a number of people with differing viewpoints to yours but stating that you don't care... well, Wiki mentality is a reality I suppose. I give up- I was trying to help out, not start some weird power struggle...--Chocky 18:17, 1 February 2008 (PST)

So, just to recap: (1) the vast majority of people here acknowledge that nowhere in this week's episode of Lost was one word was said about Kate being in the Oceanic Six, meaning making her a part of that group without a degree of speculation is impossible; (2) maintaining one's freedom while on the lam and being part of a highly public rescue mission are almost certainly mutually exclusive, meaning that it would be highly unlikely even in the realm of fantasy storytelling; (3) despite this fact, a single user, with a highly speculative and expansive definition of the word "we" from a previous episode has essentially used the fact that you can freely edit the board to present his possibly (and quite likely) faulty information as fact. Even if it turns out to be correct, it is too premature to be listed beyond speculation on the wiki. Vegan T-Rex 20:30, 1 February 2008 (PST)

The other recap would be that the first episode of this season like every season resulted in a wave of new people who have it all figured out creating accounts. They talk in "we" and "us" to dismiss someone who doesn't agree with them and talk of a "vast majority" of maybe four people. They are so ignorant and so thick that they don't pick the obvious hints being dropped as to why taking a strong stand on a point may eventually look foolish. But then again as fast as they create their accounts, they are gone off to make a mess somewhere else to make a mess that will also have to be cleaned up. A similar "we" hung around for a month last spring changing articles day after day because they knew with absolute certainty that Nikki and Paluo were alive. They didn't read anything. They didn't know anything other than there was no chance they were wrong.

They now continue to display their ignorance by telling everyone how they absolutely know that Kate in the flashforwards is "on the lam". Anything else is totally impossible to even consider. And while they parse every argument against them away, lurking in the background is always their stupid assumptions about Kate off the Island. And of course the closing argument is that even if they are totally and absolutely wrong about everything and don't know what they are talking about, they were "right" somehow because this is a Wiki. Dharmatel4 22:04, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Good grief. Really? Do I have to post a similarly smarmy reply describing how self-appointed elites decide that they know everything about the show and think that their "obvious hints" should be taken as gospel... or have you heard it all already? (For the record, I've been a member since May last year). Still, thanks for not actually addressing the points Vegan T-Rex made and going off on a tangent of your own.

Just to restate yet the same stuff AGAIN... yes, we're assuming Kate is still on the lam. You're assuming that she isn't, which is in many ways a bigger assumption. Why the double standard?--Chocky 22:22, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Thank you for stating everything in a far more coherent manner than I did. The fact remains that no-one knows for sure if Kate is or isn't a member of the group, so as far as I should see she should be left out.--Chocky 20:36, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Heh, no problem... the discussion was getting so convoluted I thought it needed a little synopsis. ;) Vegan T-Rex 20:38, 1 February 2008 (PST)

I think what Dharmatel4 is beating around is that you've defined the Oceanic 6 as "the famous survivors." By the volume of discussion on this page, I think the one thing we all know is that we don't really know what The Oceanic 6 officially means. For example, all the police chasing Hurley didn't seem to recognize him until he yelled out that he was one of the Oceanic 6. Let's face it, Hurley is pretty easy to recognize. Just because the public knows that 6 people made it back from Oceanic 815 doesn't necessarily even mean that all 6 of those people went public with their identities. --Beardedjack 21:37, 1 February 2008 (PST)

You're correct, of course. I admitted that I was wrong on that front (bad planning when editing on my part). But if the main point here is that we don't know anything about the Oceanic 6, then it seems wrong to assume Kate is in it, just because Jack referred to the two of them as 'we' in conversation. Much of the rest of it was me being somewhat off-topic...--Chocky 21:43, 1 February 2008 (PST)

It is a safe assumption that the Oceanic Six received a lot of public attention. Hurley references them when being captured to attempt to utilize celebrity power. Jack gets recognized in the drug store by the admirer for being a hero due to something revolving around their rescue. (This was confirmed in the enhanced version of Through the Looking Glass to be about Oceanic 815 and not about saving the woman on the bridge.) Given the groups apparent celebrity status, it also does raise questions as to how Kate can also have celebirty status when she is a wanted criminal. How has she avoided capture? When she was trying to get on Michael's raft, she took and defaced Joanna's passport in the hopes that she could assume her identity. Given all of this, I don't think it is safe to assume that when Jack said, "We" that he was referring to the "Oceanic Six", but that he was rather referring at that point to everyone who made it off the island. Be they celebrity or not.--Rodwell 07:06, 3 February 2008 (PST)

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water dude. Stop being so close-minded about the Kate situation. Kate not having to deal with her fugitive status if she now has celebrity is an unanswered question. Just because you're content with your iron-clad logic don't stop everyone else from considering the obvious.--Rodwell 23:58, 3 February 2008 (PST)

Don't know if anyone considers this to be canonical, but the latest ABC trailer refers to Jack, Kate and Hurley as three of the Oceanic 6. Make of it what you will. Personally, I've been spoiled as to the IDs of the 6 so I'm staying outta this. --Jeff 10:34, 7 February 2008 (PST)

A couple of things: (1) advertising material isn't canonical, and regularly holds misinformation, due to being produced separately from the show's own production and usually with little or no oversight from the show's producers (I don't know if this has been true in reference to "Lost", I'm just referring to the industry in general); (2) the point of a non-spoiler/non-predictions page on a wiki such as this is to be accurate as far as existing canonical material is concerned. The debate about Kate has nothing to do with anyone being 'right' or 'wrong' as to whether or not Kate is in the Oceanic 6 but with the page itself being accurate according to what has previously aired. So knowing spoilers shouldn't prevent anyone from being able to weigh in on the present debate. Vegan T-Rex 16:06, 7 February 2008 (PST)

The funeral

Can we assume that whoever died in the funeral Jack attended was also a member of the 6?

If the person who died was something of celebrity (as the Oceanic 6 apparently are), then their publicly announced funeral would likely be attended by curious observers. That cuts against the corpse being in the Oceanic 6. Vegan T-Rex 09:06, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Also, the mysterious "he" mentioned by Kate could be Sawyer, but we don't know for sure.

There doesn't seem to be a relationship between the six and who stayed with Jack and who went with Locke; Jack and Kate stayed, Hurley left. --Evan Prodromou 20:31, 31 January 2008 (PST)

Assume nothing. Evil-pineapples 20:34, 31 January 2008 (PST)

Correct. Nothing can be assumed. This is a theory, nothing more. --Marik7772003 20:43, 31 January 2008 (PST)
- Correct. At no time have we heard in script that six people got off the island. Also, the Oceanic 6 could be assumed to be people that were on Flight 815 and were rescued. Desmond, Ben, Juliet, Alex, etc. would not fit under that title.--Hurley's Dad 09:08, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Kate?

I noticed that Kate has been re-added to the list of "confirmed" members of the Oceanic 6? There has been no confirmation of anyone beyond Jack and Hurley. As far as we know, the Oceanic 6 are publicly known figures rescued from the island, not an exclusive list of all island residents rescued. Vegan T-Rex 15:27, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Yes, I took Kate out earlier today, as she has not been confirmed as a member. She was re-added by Jack in the Box, who said "Added Kate", not "readded Kate", so it's possible that they're ignorant of her already being deleted! I think we're safe to remove her again- I'd do it myself, but I want to make sure I'm not just acting alone here. It also appears that my section in the Theory tab about why Kate would/would not be a member of the Oceanic Six has been deleted... any chance of an explanation as to why?!

I think the Kate issue comes down to this- which is more likely:

Kate returns from the island as a member of the Oceanic Six, is made very (world?) famous, yet is not arrested for murder despite the fact that she was on the plane as a known criminal with a detective handcuffed to her.

Kate returns from the island but lies low and sets herself (or is set up by whoever they bargain with) with a new life where she will not be found, and the official record stating that she died on the plane.

I think it's obvious which one makes the most sense- it even provides a reason for Jack's ongoing compliance with the cover-up- if he speaks, Kate could get found out.--Chocky 16:29, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Oceanic may have a lot of amends to make with the passengers, but I don't think an airline company would take it upon themselves to cover up the existence of a survivor because of her criminal past. Is it possible that Kate slipped away upon their return? Perhaps. But with the media sensation that something like this would cause, I would think that people would be reinvestigating all the passengers, and it would be very hard for Kate to hide out-- straight hair or not. That being said, you're right. Kate isn't declared to be a member of The Oceanic 6. But I think we all know she is. I mean, it's Kate. Furthermore, I think the secret they are covering up is much more troubling and important than Kate heading to a woman's prison (hot). Still, if this is the overwhelming agreement, take Kate off the list. But I think there's going to be a certain expectation to see her on there... --Beardedjack 16:41, 1 February 2008 (PST)
- Just because it's expected for Kate to be one of the Oceanic 6 does not mean she is. This is Lost, after all. And the article should only provide information that is canon. As far as we know she isn't - YET.--HaloOfTheSun 16:50, 1 February 2008 (PST)
- I wasn't really thinking that Oceanic would be the ones responsible for the cover-up... but the same argument still stands. Which is more likely: the cover-up extends all the way to the FBI, allowing them to remove Kate's criminal records and allow her to be seen in public, or that they just let her slip under the radar?

You're right, though- there will be an expectation to see Kate on the list. Maybe a "possible members" section could be made?--Chocky 17:08, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Kate is one of the coeanic six. Her conversation with Jack at the end of last season made that clear. If you want to make up theories about why that isn't true, take them to the appropriate place. Dharmatel4 17:36, 1 February 2008 (PST)

I have taken it to the appropriate place (i.e. Theories), where people have been building on what I wrote (once I reverted your delete of it). This is definitely a point worth debate, and I can't work out why you think that a single use of "we" is evidence to stop that.--Chocky 17:49, 1 February 2008 (PST)

This is an extended response:

Kate returns from the island as a member of the Oceanic Six, is made very (world?) famous, yet is not arrested for murder despite the fact that she was on the plane as a known criminal with a detective handcuffed to her.

Based on false assumptions, theory and expectations. Do not assume you know what happened to Kate after she returned.

Kate returns from the island but lies low and sets herself (or is set up by whoever they bargain with) with a new life where she will not be found, and the official record stating that she died on the plane.

Again based on false assumptions and theory about what will happen to Kate.

I think it's obvious which one makes the most sense- it even provides a reason for Jack's ongoing compliance with the cover-up- if he speaks, Kate could get found out.--Chocky 16:29, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Again, complete theory.

You are presenting theories and making assumptions which you should not make. I would advise you to step back and think about that. Do you really know what happened to Kate before the flashforward? Dharmatel4 18:07, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Yes, that was theory, which is why I didn't include it in the main page. This is a discussion page. No, I do not know what happened to Kate before the flashforward, and neither do you. I'm saying that she is not likely to be a member of the Oceanic Six because of what we DO know about her situation (being a wanted criminal). You say that she is, because Jack said "we". But what's the point? Given that all you do is dismiss anything said against your ideas as "theory" (presumably your inference of what Jack means by "we" is fact?) there's no point trying to debate. "We" could mean "us survivors", or "we" could mean "me and the rest of the Oceanic Six". There is nothing obvious about this.--Chocky 18:11, 1 February 2008 (PST)

You start out claiming your speaking for others, then you claim I'm not making my case and now after I make it again, you say its not worth debating with me. What is known for sure is the conversation in TTLG. Nothing is known about Kate's current status and making assumptions that she "can't" be something beased on being a fugitive doesn't convince me. Dharmatel4 18:17, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Putting this in a second place just to make sure Dharmatel4 sees it tomorrow, it's kind of in the middle of things higher on the page.--- "Jack's conversation at the end of last season makes it clear whats going on with Kate."-Dharmatel4 --- Well, let's check the transcript. In reference to leaving the island, both Jack and Kate use the first-person plural pronoun "we", which means that they consider themselves to both be in a shared group of people, those who have left the island, and that fact is obvious. In reference to the "golden ticket", the only element of the story that would directly tie someone to what we now call the Oceanic Six that occurred in their conversation, Jack uses the first-person pronoun "we", but Kate does not and, further, Jack does not use a second-person pronoun in order to suggest Kate is in the same group. This simply means that there is a group of people, that includes Jack, that received a "golden ticket". Kate's inclusion or exclusion from this group in undefined. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's not speculation. It's the English language. Vegan T-Rex 21:02, 1 February 2008 (PST)

When did you join Lostpedia. As of Feb 1 at 21:02, how many articles or discussions have you contributed to?

Your "facts" are not "obvious". You have decided that the shared group can only be those who have left the Island. Why is the more obvious answer that Kate is one of the six to be dismissed? In reference to the tickets, Jack says "we". You redefine

"we" to mean anyone other than Kate. Your own selective logic is what excludes Kate, not the script. When did you join Lostpedia. As of Feb 1 at 21:02, how many articles or discussions have you contributed to? Dharmatel4 22:12, 1 February 2008 (PST)

"As of Feb 1 at 21:02, how many articles or discussions have you contributed to?" Utterly irrelevant. Do you have any idea how much you discredit yourself by behaving like an elitist ass? It is your selective logic which is INCLUDING Kate, why can you not apply your own arguments to yourself?--Chocky 22:25, 1 February 2008 (PST)
It's not selective logic, it's cold, unfeeling contextual analysis. The only way to disagree is to misconstrue the definitions of English language pronouns. Vegan T-Rex 22:46, 1 February 2008 (PST)

I'm sure its always irrelivant when it goes against you. The answer by the way was "one" (this one). I've spent all day responding to you and and your "vast majority". You are wrong. No matter what the article is changed to be, you will still be wrong and eventually your mistakes will all go away. Dharmatel4 22:44, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Even if it turns out eventually Kate is in the Oceanic 6, there's no way to get from point A to point B right now without guessing. The conclusion does not equal correlation. Vegan T-Rex 22:49, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Otherwise known as the "even if I'm wrong I'm still right" Wiki argument. The scene at the end of the episodes reads a particular way. To read it any other way requires making assumptions as to why it isn't saying what it obviously says. The problem with the logic is that it leads to a point where if the obvious cannot be accepted as truth, nothing can be proven. And plus you have the documented problem here in that all the logic presented has its root back at the idea that Kate is a fugitive. That was where all this started. Dharmatel4 22:54, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Again, you're not applying your own logic (and how an episode "reads" is subjective, if you like it or not). Your documented problem is that you are presuming she is NOT a fugitive. The latest evidence provided (i.e. flashbacks) shows that she is a fugitive. The onus is to prove that this is now not the case, not prove that it still is.--Chocky 22:58, 1 February 2008 (PST)

What I've done is take the conversation in TTLG at face value and conclude that Kate is a member of the six. In doing so, I dont have to depend on anything beyond that conversation. The case for the opposite position depends on the assumption that it is impossible for Kate to be one of the six because she is a fugitive. This is a dicussion and you cannot simply say that anyone who disagrees with your "vast majority" bears the sole onus to make a case. Dharmatel4 23:05, 1 February 2008 (PST)

This is the last time I will post this. If you passed grammar school English, it proves my point regardless of her status as a fugitive. --- "Jack's conversation at the end of last season makes it clear whats going on with Kate."-Dharmatel4 --- Well, let's check the transcript. In reference to leaving the island, both Jack and Kate use the first-person plural pronoun "we", which means that they consider themselves to both be in a shared group of people, those who have left the island, and that fact is obvious. In reference to the "golden ticket", the only element of the story that would directly tie someone to what we now call the Oceanic Six that occurred in their conversation, Jack uses the first-person pronoun "we", but Kate does not and, further, Jack does not use a second-person pronoun in order to suggest Kate is in the same group. This simply means that there is a group of people, that includes Jack, that received a "golden ticket". Kate's inclusion or exclusion from this group in undefined. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's not speculation. It's the English language. Vegan T-Rex 23:08, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Please read what Vegan T-Rex says and actually reply. What exact part of the TTLG proves that she is part of the 6? I've read through it, and I can't see anything that definitively states anything. The closest we get is "Yeah that golden pass that they gave us", which as T-Rex has pointed out, does not necessarily include Kate. In any case, this is getting stupid. I've made the section below with the aim of getting some kind of consensus of what to do. It may not work but it's worth a try...--Chocky 23:13, 1 February 2008 (PST)

1) You are making a false assumption by defining "WE" as meaning as meaning what it is conveniant for your own argument. You are defining what the "shared group" is to suit your own argument. To say that Kate is not a part of "we" requires an assumption on your part which is again an unnatural assumption to make given the conversation. Dharmatel4 23:18, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Pronouns are stand ins for previously defined nouns. If you jump into a conversation between two parties familiar with each other, chances are that there will be pronouns used that you lack a point of reference for, hence you don't fully understand the situation. Jack was able to use the word "we" in the context he did and be understood by Kate because she knew the group of people who the usage of that pronoun encompassed. We, the viewers, lack that point of reference, hence we have to default to the base meaning of the term. All the base meaning of the term provides is that the person making the statement (Jack) is part of a larger group that is identifiable to the listener (Kate). She could either be in the group or out of the group, but picking a side from this context is completely speculative.Vegan T-Rex 23:32, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Today's podcast confirmed Kate is part of the Oceanic Six , but not Ben .... --PhilippeP 12:43, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Kate - a vote?

Right, this whole discussion about Kate's inclusion/exclusion from the Oceanic Six has spiralled out of control. Given the democratic nature of the wiki (until an admin steps in, anyway) can we simply vote? It just sounds too easy...--Chocky 22:32, 1 February 2008 (PST)

I didn't put an expiry on this. Slightly daft idea. Let's say that the vote will close after the next episode airs (on Thursday). Providing that the episode doesn't solve our argument (no mention of spoilers please folks, we're just going on what's aired), we'll go with the vote. --Chocky 17:12, 4 February 2008 (PST)

This site works by consensus. The vote will end when its decided by consensus that there is a result. Let me put it another way. You don't have any right to unlaterially change the article or decide by yourself what the results are or what the result means or decide when the vote is over. You need to ask opinions on these things and get consensus before you do anything. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the process and you better understand what consensus means.Dharmatel4 20:36, 4 February 2008 (PST)

Oh good lord. Given that we're having a vote, how can you describe anything done as a result as "unilateral"? Please explain to me how an open-ended vote is EVER going to result in consensus if there isn't a deadline? The entire Lostpedia community is NOT going to weigh in on this debate, nor is this a point of huge debate- what criteria are you expecting for consensus? You're not more important than anyone else here, get over yourself. The community is perfectly able to make these decisions without you trying to be an overlord.--Chocky 21:53, 4 February 2008 (PST)
Oh, and to clarify- I wasn't trying to appoint myself as the judge and jury of when this vote ends. I was merely putting it out there- if people disgree then let's hear it. Should I make a vote to decide when the vote is going to end? And then a vote for that one?--Chocky 21:56, 4 February 2008 (PST)

After the episode on thurs sounds reasonable to me. Passingtramp 10:48, 5 February 2008 (PST)

Sound reasonable to me as well, although I don't see this as a big deal. Some people are being real uptight about this and it's getting a bit ridiculous...--HaloOfTheSun 19:06, 5 February 2008 (PST)

Yes, I'll admit I've got uptight. I'm officially weighing out of the debate on this! It's gotten way out of hand for such a small issue...--Chocky 19:20, 5 February 2008 (PST)

I think Kate should be included

Put your names here...

I have Kate down as one of the Oceanic 6 over at Lost Wiki, and I'm keeping it that way. -- #1LostFan talk contribs Lost Wiki 23:48, 1 February 2008 (PST)
We saw her off the island, let's not look a gift horse in the mouth. --Beardedjack 07:27, 2 February 2008 (PST)
Jack says in TTLG "I've been using the golden pass that they gave US" meaning she probably got one, too. Furthermore, "he" could refer to a parole officer, if she is out of jail. Jackieboy 15:02, 2 February 2008 (PST)
There is no question that she is one of the six. The evidence (the conversation with Jack in TTLG) is obvious and the case against depends on making assumptions about Kate that cannot be made. Dharmatel4 16:17, 2 February 2008 (PST)
Per Jackieboys Golden Pass reason. -- Dee4leeds talk contribs all 07:48, 4 February 2008 (PST)
The Golden Pass decides it --Gulfwing 21:24, 4 February 2008 (PST)
Official Promo stating that both Kate and Jack are part of the Oceanic 6 here -- Steff talk contribs email 02:57, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Of course Kate is one of the six --Eyeful Tower 13:19, 10 February 2008 (PST)

I do not think Kate should be included

Put your names here...

We don't have the evidence yet- needs to proved that she is, rather than that she isn't--Chocky 22:32, 1 February 2008 (PST)
How bout we just leave her off til we get a few more flashforwards?--Gluphokquen Gunih ▲ 22:53, 1 February 2008 (PST)
So far her inclusion is completely speculative. Vegan T-Rex 23:12, 1 February 2008 (PST)
I wouldn't include her yet. Hopefully, we will soon know if she needs to be included. One powerful reason is that she may be undercover since she was a fugitive; maybe she fakes her death, for example?--Ltsiros 06:11, 2 February 2008 (PST)
I think her secretive-ness is still a reason to leave her as a possible, but not definite, member. -- WanderingMathematician talk contribs email 08:18, 2 February 2008 (PST)
I think it is certainly safe to say she is off the island; however, being part of the Oceanic 6 and being off the island are to separate issues. Until we hear it from Kate (or confirmed from anyone else), she should be left off of the official list. -- Macaddct1984 10:47, 2 February 2008 (PST)
I don't think it is safe to assume that when Jack said, "We" that he was referring to the "Oceanic Six", but that he was rather referring at that point to everyone who made it off the island. Kate did make it off the island. It is rather obvious that the Oceanic Six is a media tagline referring to a semi-famous group of survivors. Kate is a wanted criminal. This does not add up. I'm sure we won't have to speculate for long, as the Six will probably get confirmed in another flash-forward. Then people can rub it in.--Rodwell 07:13, 3 February 2008 (PST)
I don't think she should be included - I think it's most likely that she is a member, but as it hasn't been confirmed she shouldn't yet be included. Passingtramp 02:14, 4 February 2008 (PST)

No opinion

Since names were spoiled several weeks ago, I really can't take sides --Hunter61 22:33, 2 February 2008 (PST)
- I voted to not include her, but honestly I don't care very much either way. In my opinion, when it gets to the point where we're analyzing sentence structure and English grammar, we've gone a bit too far as fans. It's mostly likely she's included and we'll likely know the answer soon anyway. So I've changed my mind - I'd rather not vote.--HaloOfTheSun 23:34, 5 February 2008 (PST)

changes

Nobody should be jumping in after three days and simply deciding on their own to make the changes. You wanted a vote. Give the vote a reasonable interval as per other previous votes on the site. Dharmatel4 07:19, 4 February 2008 (PST)

Probably partially my fault for not actually putting an expiry on the vote. I'll stick one on now...--Chocky 17:09, 4 February 2008 (PST)

This is not a vote

We don't vote on things on Lostpedia. The reasons for a belief one way or another are presented by each person, and then a SysOp uses people's opinions and judges them against what we've seen on the show. I'll let this run a day or two, then I'll take the reigns and confirm the decision. For now leave Kate there please. We don't even know what the Oceanic Six refers to yet. It could be a marketing thing for Oceanic, there could be six that get off the Island this season and will only feature in flash forwards and backs in the future. We don't know yet. Plkrtn talk contribs email 16:11, 5 February 2008 (PST)

Ditto what Plkrtn said. For general guidance on the issue, WP is a good reference that we loosely follow: WP:POLLS and WP:DEMOCRACY, as well as the meta "Don't vote on everything". A hundred votes with poor rationale may be overcome by a single editor who has elucidated an opinion with better reasoning. Overall, episode facts in Lostpedia articles should be explicit, not implicit. In this case, without evaluating particulars, the very existence of a debate at all seems to point to "fan opinion" operating. In some cases we may feel some possible facts are "strongly implied" (ie "stronger" than mere inclusion in the theory tab of the article); in those cases, the content may go into the main article, however in these cases any fan-based logical reasoning (and controversy) should be openly identified. -- ^Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯^Talk 19:01, 5 February 2008 (PST)

I've just reworded some things slightly, alongside the new notes that have been added which says that whilst Jack and Kate haven't been directly identified as part of the "Oceanic Six" it is strongly implied at the moment that they are. I think for now that suffices. We can always change things afterwards if we are wrong, but for now this seems to work well. Plkrtn talk contribs email 02:00, 6 February 2008 (PST)

The presentation is the problem

This is an either/or fallacy. People are trying to force the issue to either she is in or she is out. The real problem is with the presentation in the article - there is a big table with pictures on it, and so it's assumed that the character has either been revealed or not. The fact is, especially on a show like this, things often get suggested or implied instead of revealed or answered. The solution in these cases is to use phrases that use the construct "likely..., however...". In other words, state what is known, and for things where it is not 100% verified but probably true, state that it is likely to be true. Use language to describe the uncertainty. The concept of the Oceanic 6 has only just been revealed in the last episode; there will be plenty of time to build up the article and get confirmation of revealed characters. In the meantime, I would suggest doing some slight rewording and either taking down the table or modifying it to include a row with notes. -- Graft talk contributions 17:46, 5 February 2008 (PST)

Thank you for cutting to the heart of the matter. Vegan T-Rex 23:11, 5 February 2008 (PST)
Yes, it is uncertain, but even to say that it's "likely" or "probable," one would have to rely on some unconfirmed assumptions and ignore a significant unanswered question (how she's avoided jail despite being a member of a famous group of people). Jack's use of "us" is ambiguous as to whether he was including Kate, so it does not in fact imply that she is one of the six, it merely suggests that she might be. It doesn't seem like there's enough certainty about her status at this point to include her picture in the table with Jack and Hurley with just a footnote pointing out that it's unconfirmed. --Jdb 07:34, 6 February 2008 (PST)

Right, the page as it is currently written is still unnecessarily and improperly conclusive. It still jumps to a conclusion as to the meaning of Jack and Kate's conversation in Through the Looking Glass. Vegan T-Rex 10:49, 6 February 2008 (PST)

Desmond, Juliet, Etc...

If, and assuming a person who was not a passenger of Oceanic Airlines Flight 815 (Desmond, Juliet, etc...) gets off the Island, would they be considered part of the Oceanic 6? -- #1LostFan talk contribs Lost Wiki 16:04, 1 February 2008 (PST)

I assume that this term only refers to those on the Oceanic flight. There are 12 survivors, so 6 either stay on the island or die. So as I see it the other potential Oceanic 6 are Claire, Locke, Rose, Bernard, Sayid, Jin, Sun, Michael, and Walt. Merick 18:48, 1 February 2008 (PST)

12 Survivors? According to List of Oceanic Flight 815 survivors there's about 37 still kicking. Just because they don't have any lines doesn't mean they don't exist. The red shirts out number our guys so it wouldn't be a total shocker if one of the rescued is someone we barely know, a Frogurt or a Sullivan. It's unlikely yes, but it's Lost. --Gluphokquen Gunih ▲ 22:57, 1 February 2008 (PST)

You are not counting Aaron there... He was in the plane too--Ltsiros 06:12, 2 February 2008 (PST)

Christian Shephard

Three clues for Christian possibly being one of the 6:

His casket was empty
We see him in Jacob's hut
In the Season 3 Finale, in one of the later Flashbacks this happens:

Jack is in the hospital looking for drugs when he is being approached by the chief of surgery. In the following conversation, the chief of surgery asks Jack: "How much did you have to drink?" to which Jack replies: "...you get my father down here. Get him down here right now. And if I am drunker than he is...". This seems to indicate his father is alive. Any ideas? Comments? Ei8th 15:25, 2 February 2008 (PST)

Christian Shephard is dead. The showrunners have repeated several times that when a character dies on Lost, he is actually and completely dead, there is no coming back to life. What Jack said in the flash-forward is indeed troubling, but bear in mind that he looked somewhat deranged when he said that, so I wouldn't take it too literally. In any case, I definitely don't think that Christian is alive and that he quietly went back to work at the hospital.--Oliverdevor 12:46, 18 February 2008 (PST)

What about the redshirts?

Background characters, redshirts, whatever you want to call them, how come none of them supposedly escape the island? It only seems that the main Losties are rescued. Obviously it wouldn't be as interesting if someone like Steve or Sullivan escaped, but it doesn't seem fair...does this mean all the other survivors get left behind on the island? A possible reason for Jack wanting to return? --SilvaStorm

Silva, this page is not intended as a surrogate for a thread in a discussion forum. It should largely relate to issues of article content. -- ^Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯^Talk 19:12, 5 February 2008 (PST)

Oceanic Six and the Six numbers

...do you think that they may related? :> and each member of Oceanic Six got assigned one of the Numbers? I got this theory on my head when i reminded one "lost fan" userbar i saw in past and six characters got six numbers on background on it. I know that this theory is too fantastic right now due of lack of arguments... but who knows it's maybe true, we still got 3 sessions ahead :p -Shadowriver 07:05, 3 February 2008 (PST)

There used to be a 6 page that dealt with all the 6's appearing in the series. Just like there is a 5 page and a page for each of the Numbers. So in terms of references to the number 6, we have:

Six letters in the word DHARMA
Six research disciplines of the DHARMA Initiative
Six Numbers
And now Oceanic Six i.e. (presumably) six people who get off the island

That's not enough for a 6 article, I guess. I'm sure there's probably more, too. - GoodRom 10:54, 8 February 2008 (PST)

This Page Looks Good

Kudos to the community for making this article look nice with the presentation of the Oceanic 6 at the top of the page--Turniphead Danny 12:00, 3 February 2008 (PST)

Transcript points

Note: this is provided as a guide to evidence. Feel free to edit as new evidence is revealed. -- ^Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯^Talk 23:57, 5 February 2008 (PST)

3x22 "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1"

General: The Oceanic Six are never mentioned, and "golden pass" is introduced

JACK: Yeah that golden pass that they gave us. I, I've been using it.
Jack's conversation with Kate possibly implies: both received Golden pass (if "us" refers to both Jack and Kate, rather than Jack and other parties excluding Kate)

4x01 "The Beginning of the End"

General: "Oceanic Six" introduced, but "Golden pass" is never mentioned, although it was mentioned in the Oceanic Airlines commercial broadcast by ABC after 4x01

HURLEY: "Don't you know who I am? Stop, wait, don't you know who I am? I'm one of the Oceanic six! I'm one of the Oceanic six!!!"
Note: Fact: Hurley states he is Oceanic six, and that fact has brought him some fame

"Oceanic" implies Oceanic Airlines, specifically some connection with Flight 815. Therefore the label may mean six famous people having some connection (not necessarily passengers) with Flight 815 and the Island.
DETECTIVE MIKE: "Is that why you kept shouting “hey I'm one of the Oceanic six”?
MATTHEW: So, on behalf of Oceanic, I'd like to extend you an invitation for a little upgrade.
Conversation implies: Hurley's' link with Golden pass:
HURLEY: Reporters leaving you alone? / JACK: Yeah. Still have to sign some autographs when I go out for coffee.
Conversation at basketball court shows shared fame, implies shared fame due to both being Oceanic six

Current state of knowledge

Fact: Hurley states he is part of Oceanic six
Implied: Jack is part of Oceanic six due to: 1) shared fame 2) shared Flight 815 passenger status 3) flashforward off-island appearance
Implied: The Oceanic six all received golden passes due to: 1) 3x22 Jack/Kate conversation and 2) 4x01 Matthew Abbandon's ambiguous "upgrade" comment.

Abaddon was clearly talking about moving Hurley to a nicer institution, not about the golden passes. He may have been hiding some ulterior motive since it was suggested that he wasn't who he claimed to be, but there was nothing ambiguous in terms of what he was offering to upgrade.--Jdb 11:02, 6 February 2008 (PST)

Implied: Kate is part of Oceanic six due to: 1) Possibly implied receipt of golden pass (if golden pass implies Oceanic 6 status) 2) shared Flight 815 passenger status 3) flashforward off-island appearance

"Possibly implied" does not equal "implied". It's basically an awkward way to say "speculation", which has no place on a topic's main page. Vegan T-Rex 10:08, 7 February 2008 (PST)

First mention of the 6

Can I ask you something?

When did we know of the existence of the Oceanic 6 for the first time? I mean, before season 4 started to air, their existence was already rumoured... It is no more a spoiler, can you tell me, please? Thanks Simone85 14:52, 11 February 2008 (PST)

If you are concerned with official ABC material, the first reference was a billboard that appeared in Tallahassee, Florida in January that had "Who are the Oceanic Six?" on it. Before that, there were references to "6" (not the oceanic six) in some of the promotional trailers. Dharmatel4 15:04, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Further Implications

Since obviously this is the right forum to discuss unsubstantiated implications (I say that in utter disgust about the argument above). That being said, the article says Ben's reference to Sayid helping his friends implies that friends refers to the Oceanic Six and protecting their secret. Ben's comment only states that Sayid is helping his friends, which could just as easily be the Oceanic Six or the survivors that didn't make it off the island. And certainly no reference is made to the secret that the Oceanic Six might be hiding. This line should adjusted to reflect the show's implications Wikistoriographer 09:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Sayid - perhaps not one of the 6...

It seems to me that there may be a little room for doubt to conclusively list Sayid as one of the Oceanic Six, even though this was specifically what he told Mr. Avellino just before shooting him on the golf course. The reason for this doubt stems from a couple of things: 1) Sayid and Desmond leave the Island on the helicopter, and their future and how they get back to civilization is uncertain - it may very well be that they end up finding a way back that is completely different from the other Oceanic Six, and 2) it seems as if there is a bit of doubt about Sayid's existence off the Island when he discusses his missions with Ben in the veteranarian's office. Sayid says that "now they know about me", and Ben then says "good". This is all to say that I think that it is well to keep the description of the Six as it is with the disclaimer that the people listed so far are "believed" to be members of the Six, rather than having it stated conclusively that they are. -- Saukkomies 14:24, 16 February 2008 (EST)

The official preview for "The Economist" specifically stated that one of the Oceanic Six would be revealed in the episode. If it isn't Sayid, then who is it? Ben?--Nevermore 10:24, 17 February 2008 (PST)

Preview aside, if the character *says* they are one of the six in the episode, we should not doubt that they are without some kind of evidence. Dharmatel4 15:46, 18 February 2008 (PST)

other characters section

I removed this section for the following reasons:

- Its full of theory "It is also possible", "He appears", "it is unlikely", "This may be likely"

- None of the information seems relivant to the article. Desmond going to the freighter have any particular relivance to the oceanic six. Talking about how Richard and Ethan travel to/from the Island doesn't seem relivant either.

Dharmatel4 15:42, 18 February 2008 (PST)