Rename Discussion

"Wheel of Dharma" or "Dharma Wheel"

This article's up for renaming. I think "Frozen Wheel" is more accurate for the rename. "Donkey" was the code-name by the writers, and obviously used as a red herring, but the "frozen" and "wheel" parts were accurate. However, "island-moving wheel" is potentially NOT accurate, since we don't know exactly what the inner workings of it do just yet. We do however, know that it is indeed frozen, and a wheel. Gutsdozer 22:59, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

  • Disagree* Producers themselves called it a frozen donkey wheel. "Wheel" by itself would imply something that just rolls on the ground vertically, whereas the donkey wheel indicates that it is horizontal with projecting spokes used for operating a mechanism (see first Pirates movie for an example). "Frozen" is probably superfluous but I'd keep FDW because it's descriptive and canonical. --Jackdavinci 23:07, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

I'd say rename it to Frozen donkey wheel, without the capitals, because if you get into semantics, it really is a donkey wheel in that definition. So Darlton were being ridiculously specific this time around. --Aero*Zeppelin 23:45, 29 May 2008 (PDT)

  • Agree with removing capital letters - following Lostpedia formatting. Personally, I love the name.--Overworkedirish 00:07, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I say keep it easy and rename it The Orchid Wheel. It's a wheel, it's in the Orchid. Need i say more? --Lilduff90 03:46, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I also like The Orchid Wheel. There's no room to fit donkeys between those spokes. Drop the "frozen." It doesn't work because it's frozen; it fails because it's frozen and Ben has to knock ice off to make it functional.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 06:24, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I think Frozen Donkey Wheel is a terrible name. Someone who comes to Lostpedia looking for information on 'that thing Ben turned to move the Island' won't associate it with a donkey and won't know how to find it. It should have a name that is more intuitive and then the article could refer to this name as a production name. This would be the only place on Lostpedia where we use the preproduction code word instead of a real name.
  • Agree with re-name to The Orchid Wheel for the aforementioned reasons. The producers called it the Frozen Donkey Wheel as a codeword for the scene. If you wanted to find information about D-Day and the landings at Normandy, you wouldn't look up "Operation Overlord". I think "Frozen Donkey Wheel" should redirect to The Orchid Wheel and there should obviously be a discussion in the article page about the codeword, but it makes the most sense for it to be called what it is - not what the Producers called it in code. --LOSTinDC 08:21, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I don't even think we need to maintain a redirect. We would only be perpetuating a code term that doesn't really apply.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 09:49, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I vote for The Orchid Wheel as well. It is both simple and concise. Also, maintain the redirects (frozen wheel, wheel, donkey wheel), as there are many who already know this by these names already. And, to be fair, they are all pretty accurate descriptions, given its secret "code name" and the fact that it is, indeed, a frozen donkey wheel.--Jwilkinson 10:09, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • It's not "The Orchid Wheel" though. The Orchid is a Dharma station and the wheel was very clearly more ancient. The Orchid was merely built on top of it, and we have no frame of reference yet whether or not the wheel was actually instrumental in the Orchid's design (whatever force it triggered likely did, but we don't even know that). Calling it "The Orchid Wheel" would be like calling the smoke monster "The Barracks Monster" just because the cave to summon it was under the barracks. Gutsdozer 10:38, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • It is a Donkey Wheel, and it is Frozen. I vote for the page to keep this title, although I agree with removing capitals on Donkey and Wheel. Bookhouse88 12:17, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I agree with Frozen donkey wheel (no caps). It's definitely not The Orchid Wheel - it's part of an ancient site that they built the Orchid on top of, and not part of the Orchid. Ben had to literally destroy part of the station to get to the cave. --Jackdavinci 12:34, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • I vote for The Wheel, Frozen Wheel, or Orchid Wheel, just leave donkey out of it and make redirects from most of the aliases. Kevrock 12:39, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: As others have said. Its a donkey wheel, and it is frozen. Its what fandom is calling it. So I don't see any need to rename, other than decapitalization  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  14:02, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: Don't rename this article. There is no reason to rename it. sixhoursago
  • KEEP: No reason to rename Malachi 13:56, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: It's pretty accurate (we have no in-character name for this thing, so we can only refer to it OOC), and it's pretty amusing. --Engelous 13:51, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: for reason's above, if the producers start referring to it as something else such as the "Orchid Wheel" then change.--Kivipat 14:32, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: We neither know if any donkey was ever attached to it nor do we have any knowledge if the given name by its ancient builders had anything to do with orchids. All we know is that it is a "wheel", that it is "frozen" and apparently made of wood and metal, located near the base of a well on the island ("The wooden, metal wheel near the base of the well on the island" is obviously too long).--SokratesOne 12:07, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
    • RENAME Articles shouldn't be named based solely on the producers off-camera references. Its not as if Ben said "I'm going to use the Frozen Donkey Wheel to move the Island." The producers have also referred to the shark as Ezra James Sharkington, but we didn't rename the shark page "Sharkington" (although Sharkington does redirect there... ). In other words, it was a code-word for the scene - not for the room itself, nor for the wheel itself. --LOSTinDC 16:13, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • It is still nonetheless a "frozen donkey wheel" ie "a wheel to which donkeys were no-doubt tethered that is frozen" whether it is also a code or not. In fact it was such a clever code, that most people thought it was just a code and not an accurate description!!!--Kivipat 16:50, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • But there's no indication donkeys were ever tethered to it. How would they get down the elevator, let alone the ladder? For all we know, they had four-toed DHARMA children tethered to it! <end sarcasm tag> Kevrock 17:45, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • "Frozen four-toed DHARMA children wheel" is catchy but a bit long, maybe not donkey's...but there are tether holes - polar bears?, slaves?, Conan?--Kivipat 17:59, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • RENAME: While I see the logic for keeping as "Frozen donkey wheel," I think something less specific would be best. Not everyone listens to the podcast, so many fans might have no idea where that name comes from. I actually think "The Wheel" would work just fine (sounds mysterious...) --Compossible 18:32, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Agree I'm all for keeping it simple - name it "The Wheel" w/ redirects for all these variants. Kevrock
  • Agree The wheel sound like a good name. Similar to The cable or The discharge. It is the wheel. --Connor401 20:23, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Agree The Wheel is good. I do, however, think that The Orchid Wheel, Island Moving Wheel, Donkey Wheel, and Frozen Donkey Wheel should all redirect to it -- they all describe it very well, and I think they are all things that a normal person would search for. Pixel
  • Agree The Wheel is the perfect name for the article. It's like my name: simple, yet you wonder. The-room 00:29, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Agree The Wheel is much more sensible, in my opinion. --Pike 08:57, 31 May 2008 (PDT)
  • KEEP: Seeing as the production crew and rest of the internet refer the object as "The Frozen Donkey Wheel", I don't see why Lostpedia should decide otherwise, that is until the writers decide to give it an official name.

RENAME - "The Frozen Donkey Wheel" is obviously a code name for it. They wouldn't just say "The Wheel". Rename for sure. --CTS 17:41, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

RENAME: It's not a donkey wheel. There isn't enough room to tether a donkey between the ends of any two arms.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:30, 31 May 2008 (PDT)

Exactly. That's why I wrote in the article's body that it may at one time have had a purpose besides what it is used for and it may have at one time been turned by animals, but it certainly isn't now. For instance, we wouldn't call the DHARMA Van article "Volkwagon Type 2", because technically, it is. But from our perspective it's just the DHARMA van! Just as this may have been a donkey wheel, but it is a whole hell of a lot more now! Kevrock 10:34, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

RENAME: How about "Frozen chamber".. so there could be information about the whole room, you know, being behind the orchid and then information about the wheel. Jared 03:08, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

DISAGREE. The fact the chamber is frozen is interesting, but not the 'main attraction', so to say. If the wheel wasn't there, then yea, it's a weird frozen chamber. But the Wheel itself is the sole purpose for showing us the room. Kevrock 10:34, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

DEFINITIONS EXPLAINED Just to clear this whole thing up, the device is NOT a "Donkey Wheel", but is a type of "Capstan", such as is used on sailing ships. Here are some examples of the two: Donkey Wheel photos:

Saddlescombe Farm in Sussex, England

Grey's Court in Oxfordshire, England

Rotherfield Greys, Oxfordshire, England

Notice that donkey wheels are VERTICAL, not horizontal. They were operated by a donkey walking inside the wheel.

Capstan Photos:

A model of a working capstan on a sailing ship

An old drawing of sailors operating a capstan

A photo of a land-mounted capstan that helps bring ships in to port in Antigua

A modern capstan that is powered by an electric motor, not by human strength

Capstans were nautical - donkey wheels were agrarian.

Perhaps the reason that the producers decided to call this a Frozen Donkey Wheel was to mislead people into thinking of something other than a device that sailors might have built - sailors, not farmers. So, although it was indeed frozen, this is definitely NOT a "donkey wheel". Therefore, the title of this page should not include the word "donkey", in my humble opinion.

Saukkomies 16:27, 04 February 2009(PDT) doesn't. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

KEEP... But either way, as long as there is a redirection from Frozen Wheel to this article, it does not really matter what it is called. --kansasgal71 01:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I persoanlly think it should be named something like The Great Wheel. Just sounds more...official, for lack of a better word. Frozen Donkey Wheel sounds a bit...odd/comical to me.--CooperSimply 00:30, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

KEEP... It isn't really in the Orchid, that would confuse more than keep it easy. It is certainly a wheel and certainly frozen for much of the series.

Anyone who has seen any of the episodes with the frozen wheel in them is going to know that it has nothing to do with donkeys. Is the Swan where the DHARMAs kept large white birds? No it is not, That is just what they called it. If you call it a Frozen Donkey Wheel, it will be fine, I am sure that everyone could figure it out. (JohnQPoster 20:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC))

Island to Tunisia

The article says that after turning the wheel Ben woke up in 2005 in the Tunisian desert. This is almost assuredly what happened, but technically since we didn't see it all happen in the same episode we can only surmise that the events in Tunisia immediately followed Ben turning the wheel. Forgive me if I'm being too picky, but would it be prudent to include a little more ambiguous language in the article (something like "it is assumed that...")? I'm probably being overly-critical. Jacob's Lather 04:02, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

  • Maybe a little<smile>. Ben injured his arm when he falls and the wound was still fresh when he appeared in the desert.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 06:28, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the main reason for having him injure his arm was so that the audience would be able to connect the two scenes. The injury doesn't seem to be of much importance, dramatically speaking, beyond that. --Compossible 18:53, 30 May 2008 (PDT)
  • Yes, I'd concur that the arm injury was initially there to confuse us in Tunisia, then they show how it received it to establish continuity. Kevrock 11:45, 6 June 2008 (PDT)
Okay, I'd have to agree with that. Good point. Jacob's Lather 22:32, 18 June 2008 (PDT)


The frozen wheel directly mirrors the frozen battery on the boat as Michael quells the bomb. When the battery thaws, the bomb activates: when the frozen wheel thaws, its power activates. --Brother 14:44, 30 May 2008 (PDT)

Frozen pt. 1

I'm surprised to see that NO ONE has any theory of why the chamber is frozen in a temperate island. Any ideas?? --    Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email   01:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

  • The tape mentions exotic matter, and the casimir effect. Which means they are probably talking about negative energy and negative mass. Negative mass is theorized to have properties such as falling UP, being repealed by regular matter, and having negative temperature compared to normal matter (so if it was in an area that's 25 degrees the negative mass would equalize to -25 degrees etc). The only other explanation would be a super duper DHARMA refrigeration system in the tunnels. Hugo815 00:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Wheel's name

Have you noticed an inscription just over the wheel? Andreapasotti 15:33, 2 June 2008 (PDT)

No, where? Can you ref a screencap? Kevrock 16:00, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
If referring to Image:FDK.jpg, all I see are icicles. Robert K S (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2008 (PDT)
That's right: only icicles (I rewatched the episode) Andreapasotti 14:34, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

the sound

nowhere in this article does it talk about the sound that the island makes when the island is moved. This is important to the explanation of the mechanics of moving the island. Petrarch1603 14:30, 4 June 2008 (PDT)

  • What sound in particular did it make? I don't think we have an explanation of the mechanics of the movement. Kevrock 15:50, 4 June 2008 (PDT)
    • I mean the sound that the entire island made. It was heard by Sawyer and Juliet at the beach, Alpert and the others, even jack and the losties on the helicopter. I was looking for a wiki about this but haven't found anything. I think we need a wiki for "moving the island"Petrarch1603 15:23, 5 June 2008 (PDT)
      • I added a line about the fact the lights and sound were experienced after the wheel was turned, which happened before the Island disappeared. Anything more than that is speculation, as we only know those events happened in that order. It would be a logical fallacy to assert what they mean, what they did, why they happened, or that one caused the other, as we still do not know exactly what went down or how it worked. We can always draw our own conclusions, but that is what the Theory tab is for. Kevrock 11:43, 6 June 2008 (PDT)
        • Well there were different sounds before that too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deus ex Machina (talkcontribs) 2008-07-12T23:24:54.

Is Ben lying?

I just got the feeling from the fact that Ben knew EXACTLY how to move the Island and that he "always has a plan" that there may be some question as to whether or not he's telling the truth that whoever moves the Island can't come back. Also from the conversation with Widmore about how Ben "stole" the Island from him, I got the impression that Ben has moved the Island before maybe in that way, "stole" it from Charles. I'm not sure if the article should be edited but I kind of take that statement with a grain of salt. --MethodicWays 15:10, 7 June 2008 (PDT)

Or maybe Charles was the last to move it. Anyway, theories should go on the theories or theories talk page, not the article discussion space. :-) Robert K S (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2008 (PDT)
Thanks I wasn't sure where this should go because I was wondering if we should take Ben's statement as an actual fact about how the Wheel works. But I wonder if Widmore moved it, why would he knowing that he couldn't go back? And if he caused himself to be banished from the Island why would he blame Ben and not Jacob or whoever? But you're right. I'll move this to theories. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MethodicWays (talkcontribs) 2008-06-08T00:30:17.

Sanity Check

on - Frozen_wheel & The_Island - pages, I am having trouble buying the "wooden" & "ancient" declarations about the wheel. 1) I will admit the wheel appears to be old-timey "ancient looking", but may be only a few decades old... as we have no clue to its' origin, 2) The wheel may very well be "wooden" also... it looks like the helm on an old sailing vessel, but... the slot that the wheel was spinning in roared to life with flames when the wheel was turned. Wood Wheels Do Not Work Well With Open Flames. Unless of course they are a "one time use only" wheel. I honestly thought the wheel was "Stone", hence the weight and extra effort to get it moving by Ben. recommend: DROP 'Wooden' ... recommend: REPLACE 'Ancient' with 'Ancient Looking'. Don't get me started on 'left-loosey, right-tighty' with Ben spinning the wheel clockwise. [;^) Cheers. DocH --DocH 11:08, 11 June 2008 (PDT)

  • 1, The word "ancient" does not appear in the article. The only statement about age is, "The construction implies that the wheel was built a long time ago..."
  • 2, The article states, "The wheel itself appeared to be made of wood..." There is no declaration, only a report on what was observed. Kevrock 22:51, 11 June 2008 (PDT)

Yeah - guess I was talking more about "The_island" page. One of the two I mentioned at the start. Where the statement "Moving the Island - Benjamin Linus moved the Island by turning an ancient wooden wheel located..." I just happened to post this on the Talk:Frozen_wheel because I came here to research where the other page might have gotten it just half right. ---DocH 11:30, 12 June 2008 (PDT)

Noted. I am currently working on an extensive rewrite of The Island article. I will be sure the language matches between this artcile and that one. Dharmacakra Kevrock   talk  contribs   15:14, 12 June 2008 (PDT)
Thank you & good luck... you have a handful ahead. Just read it and its' looking much better. "Fauna & Flora" could use a Medusa Spider blurb. Like the new "wheel" logo on your timestamp as well. --DocH 20:12, 15 June 2008 (PDT)
Thanks. I added a medusa spider link to the F&F section. Dharmacakra Kevrock   talk  contribs   07:28, 16 June 2008 (PDT)
There were no flames by the way. You should watch the episode in better quality.--Deus ex Machina 21:20, 12 July 2008 (PDT)
Not lapping flames. I bet the Wheel was not electrically lit from below. see- Media: --DocH 12:31, 19 July 2008 (PDT)

Looks like petrified wood to me, the area surrounding looks like the inside of a DHARMA station. I sorta figured DHARMA found the wheel where it sits and built a 'station' (simply fixed up the area) around it.(JohnQPoster 20:09, April 20, 2010 (UTC))


On and the new Season 4 DVD, there is an interview with Damon Lindeloff titled "Mysterious Egyptian Influences" There are several quick looks at the making of the Hieroglyphs in the"Frozen Donkey Wheel" room. I have taken some screencaps of the clip and have been playing around with the Hieroglyphs. Several I have deciphered and confirmed in Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary that are online. Here is what I have come up with using Gardiner's Sign List [1]. Since I cannot be 100% certain of the transliteration, or if what we see on the S4DVD is what actually made it onto the walls in FDW, I do not want to put the interpretation on the main page. However, I think it needs to be thrown out for discussion.--Kansasgal71 17:22, 17 October 2008 (PDT)

D2 D21 X1 N31 My best Guess - JOURNEY UP or ROAD TO SKY/HEAVEN

This is for the Glyphs on the top in the middle O4-G1-G43 Y1:Z2 Confirmed as - VICINITY

M8-G1-S29-D54 Confirmed as - TRAVEL

Aa1 46-P1 Confirmed as - NORTHWARD TRAVEL

N35:T34*G17-M17-O5 D54 confirmed as - TRAVEL/TRAVERSE

This is for the Glyphs on the Left in the Middle. V13:O34-U39 My best Guess - RAISE UP--Kansasgal71 17:22, 17 October 2008 (PDT)

Wheel of Time

Given that Lost is inspired or heavily influenced both by fantasy novels and world religions, it may be worth noting in the Trivia section that the "wheel of time" is not only a concept prevalent in Buddhist and Hindu religions, but is also the name of a very popular fantasy novel series by Robert Jordan. The novels in particular refer to a literal wheel with spokes, each one representing a different age. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LOST-Gutsdozer (talkcontribs) 2008-08-25T20:30:04.


The trivia section states that the frozen donkey wheel is the name given for the scene where the wheel literally appears. I'm sure that I heard TPTB say (in multiple podcasts) that the codename was for the final scene (i.e. Locke in the coffin), and the literal frozen donkey wheel aided to throw people off who were digging for spoilers.--<BauerUK> tlk | cnt | www | irc 16:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That's true. This article says it is mentioned on the DVD commentary.--Baker1000 16:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, as you can see from one of the March podcasts, the code name is always for the secret scene, which is not always the final scene: "They reveal at the end of the podcast that the code phrase refereing to the secret scene from the Season 4 finale is called "The Frozen Donkey Wheel". The season 4 twist is close to the end, but not the final scene itself." --Jackdavinci 06:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename to Island's wheel

Frozen wheel was a great name until we got to "This Place Is Death" and learned that the wheel has not been frozen throughout its existence and does not have to be cold to function. I also thought about "Wheel of Time," but that seemed overly dramatic. Frozen wheel would need to be reset as a REDIRECT and existing REDIRECTs would have to be reconfigured. I have to admit that there is a possibility that there are other wheels, but my guess is that it's unlikely. Of course, none of this has anything to do with donkeys.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:12, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It looked frozen to me. Snow/frost and icicles were clearly visible during the episode. Hugo815 19:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I have to agree that there are icicles in the picture at the second move, but the wheel doesn't work because it's frozen. It works after someone breaks it free.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I thought it still looked like the room was frozen too. The wheel was loose because Ben has already unstuck it. Technically the term for this type of wheel would be either 'treadwheel' if used by humans or animals (donkeys!) to do labor, or a 'capstan' if used in a nautical setting or to work pulleys or ropes. I wouldn't use "Orchid" in the title since it existed before the Orchid. --Jackdavinci 17:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
This is one of those difficult discussions. I agree that the wheels purpose doesn't come from it being frozen, however it IS frozen, and has so far always appeared to be. Its first appearances around the show in discussion both by TPTB and the fan base, it was refferred to as the frozen donkey wheel. This seems to have been contracted to the frozen wheel. We should always be aware of not only the accuracies of the names of things from the show, but of how fandom as a whole refer to these items. Some of these terms have been borrowed back sometimes, into the show. For me, its an appropriate name for now, and we can always redirect other terms such as the one suggested. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  15:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't rename It's commonly known as the frozen wheel, and has always been known as such. Until we actually see the wheel not frozen, it should stay as "frozen wheel." -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:41, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't rename: I prefer frozen wheel. --Nickb123 (Talk) 17:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't rename: Keep it as frozen wheel and add the redirect for the alternate name.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 19:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Rename: Islands wheel is a great general way to describe it. Simpler is always better. -- User:Pastoryam12/sig
It really needs to be said that "Frozen Donkey Wheel" referred ONLY to the scene in which we discover Locke is Jeremy Bentham. It was no doubt influenced by this wheel, but like the snake in the mailbox it is just a codename. It's been mentioned several times over that the fact that it was frozen at one point shouldn't influence the name. It's also been mentioned that it's not even a donkey wheel. I prefer Orchid Wheel. The reason is because even if it's older than the Orchid, it's still found in that location. Additionally, every time someone mentions having to use the wheel they always say they have to get to the Orchid, regardless of whether or not the Orchid is there. The Orchid seems incredibly important to the characters, and it seems that if you ask, say, Locke what to name it he'd probably say "Orchid Wheel". --Cobblepot 03:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Time Bit

"When Ben turned it and it was frozen, Time moved at a snail's pace on the Island compared to the outside world. Around 3 years elapsed for the 108 days spent on the Island for the Losties.(Frozen Donkey Wheel)"

That's not true, I removed that. --Pluvia 20:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Trivia needs source or clarification

I removed "*"The Frozen Donkey Wheel" was the code name used by the producers to refer to the secret scene in which John Locke is revealed to be in the coffin. Such code names have been used by the Lost producers to keep plots secret. Because of this scene earlier in the episode, they named that later scene the Frozen Donkey Wheel, so people leaking spoilers would think this was the top secret scene and not Locke's body. Donkeys have noting to do with the frozen wheel." This seems to contradict what the producers themselves said before the episode aired in the Mar 21 2008 podcast: "In the case of that, though, it's not the last scene in the show that has that code name, it's actually a scene that happens towards the end of the show but reveals a very significant secret." They also mentioned that the actual final scene would be pretty interesting too, but not in the same way that previous season's final scenes were, and that officially, the earlier scene was the official 'code named secret scene'. Also, "Donkeys have nothing to do with the frozen wheel" is not entirely true. Besides the code name, the wheel does bear a resemblance to donkey wheels, and a descriptive reference is as legitimate as a functionally related one. Strictly speaking the correct term for this device is a "treadwheel", or if used in a nautical setting, a "capstan". --Jackdavinci 17:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I have restored the trivia entry and provided the citation as requested. The wheel is non-functional as a treadwheel or capstan because anyone turning the wheel more than one-quarter of its circumference would have to stop and return to the starting point. A donkey would not be able to do that for itself. A nautical origin is unlikely because it does not resemble either the helm [2] or the anchor capstan[3] of a ship, such as the USS Constitution, in service since 1797, or the Black Rock.

--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I was hoping to find an actual source, i.e. transcript rather than just a random user's summary which isn't clear. Regardless, I reedited the section to include what the producers said in both the podcast and DVD commentary, such that the final scene was the real scene and the earlier one a decoy, but it's still clear that the code name itself is a reference to the ealrier scene. I also clarified how the word 'donkey' is a reference to the similarity to donkey treadwheels, but that this treadwheel isn't the sort pulled by donkeys. Hopefully that clears up everything! --Jackdavinci 00:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ultrasound v. Acoustic

Some have suggested that the image shown to Doctor Pierre Chang is not a Sonar as stated on air in show but a "Acoustic return for density" whatever that is. Others have called it an "Ultrasound". A consensus should be reached for accuracy and conformity and I call for one to be made here. Thanks. {{SUBST:User:jdray/autosig}} 23:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Sonar (originally an acronym for sound navigation and ranging) is a technique that uses sound propagation (usually underwater) to navigate, communicate with or detect other vessels. There are two kinds of sonar: active and passive. Sonar may be used as a means of acoustic location and of measurement of the echo characteristics of "targets" in the water. Acoustic location in air was used before the introduction of radar. Sonar may also be used in air for robot navigation, and SODAR (an upward looking in-air sonar) is used for atmospheric investigations. The term sonar is also used for the equipment used to generate and receive the sound. The frequencies used in sonar systems vary from infrasonic to ultrasonic. The study of underwater sound is known as underwater acoustics or sometimes hydroacoustics.

Ultrasound is cyclic sound pressure with a frequency greater than the upper limit of human hearing. Although this limit varies from person to person, it is approximately 20 kilohertz (20,000 hertz) in healthy, young adults and thus, 20 kHz serves as a useful lower limit in describing ultrasound. The production of ultrasound is used in many different fields, typically to penetrate a medium and measure the reflection signature or supply focused energy. The reflection signature can reveal details about the inner structure of the medium. The most well known application of this technique is its use in sonography to produce pictures of fetuses in the human womb. There are a vast number of other applications as well.

Acoustics is the interdisciplinary science that deals with the study of sound, ultrasound and infrasound (all mechanical waves in gases, liquids, and solids). A scientist who works in the field of acoustics is an acoustician. The application of acoustics in technology is called acoustical engineering. There is often much overlap and interaction between the interests of acousticians and acoustical engineers. Hearing is one of the most crucial means of survival in the animal world, and speech is one of the most distinctive characteristics of human development and culture. So it is no surprise that the science of acoustics spreads across so many facets of our society - music, medicine, architecture, industrial production, warfare and more. Art, craft, science and technology have provoked one another to advance the whole, as in many other fields of knowledge. The word "acoustic" is derived from the Greek word ακουστικός (akoustikos), meaning "of or for hearing, ready to hear"[1] and that from ακουστός (akoustos), "heard, audible"[2], which in turn derives from the verb ακούω (akouo), "I hear"[3]. The Latin synonym is "sonic". After acousticians had extended their studies to frequencies above and below the audible range, it became conventional to identify these frequency ranges as "ultrasonic" and "infrasonic" respectively, while letting the word "acoustic" refer to the entire frequency range without limit.

Unless we know precisely which technology was used to create the image, we shouldn't state it as fact. This goes for both SONAR and acoustic. For all I know it might have been made by a special Dharma x-ray or MRI. We do know it was a image, but the technology used to create it is vague. Until we know for sure, the article should not assume either.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 19:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Agree - technically speaking, it's probably not a SONAR (SOund NAvigation and Ranging - named to resemble RADAR and more properly called SODAR or SOund Detection And Ranging) or an ultrasound (which is itself a medical SONAR using ultrasound frequencies) as both use frequencies more appropriate to liquid environments than rock. More generally devices for acoustic location underground are called seismic surveys or seismic imaging systems, collected with geophones (a small portable seismometer), which is the science of reflection seismology or seismic reflection (or refraction), and displayed as seismograms. A method similar but using electromagnetic rather than elastic waves is ground-penetrating radar (GPR), widely used for mapping shallow subsurfaces up to a few meters deep (sometime called wall penetrating radar). Both are sometime erroneously called SONAR devices even by their own users. Any sort of image like this *can* be properly called a spectrograph, and if it uses elastic or acoustic waves rather than electromagnetic, it can be more specifically called a sonograph. The reason people are thinking it's an ultrasound is because of the triangular appearance of the graph. But SONARs use a triangular detection field as well (as does RADAR) - the only difference being that the triangular field is swept in a circle and the rotating data field is kept on screen until it refreshes. Any sort of device whether it's sound or electromagnetic based will have a triangular appearance if it it used only in one direction. Acoustic pulse decay density determination is also typically used for liquids, although it's also been used to determine things like wood rot. I think for the purposes of the article it's best to mention that it was called a SONAR in the show but is probably more properly called a spectrograph. --Jackdavinci 01:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Also see Sonar fence {{SUBST:User:jdray/autosig}} 01:18, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Same direction?


Ben pushes to the left


Locke pushes to the right

The article states that "Locke pushed on the wheel in the same direction Ben did..." Now, I may be completely incorrect in this observation, but it appears that the direction Ben pushed the wheel in "There's No Place Like Home, Part 2" is to the left, while the direction Locke pushed it in during "This Place Is Death" is to the right. I may be just completely missing something here, but it appears as though they're pushing in opposite directions. Perhaps this is to symbolize Locke undoing the damage that Ben did. I didn't want to add that information before double-checking first. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  05:34, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Locke's pulling, not pushing. Robert K S (talk) 17:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This may be related to a question that occurred to me. Can viewers tell whether Locke was in the same chamber that Ben was in? Is it possible that he may have been on the other side of the wheel? Does it matter? WCFrancis 20:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
The center column and hieroglyphs are the same. Does that prove it's the same room? I suppose not, but it's a fairy safe assumption. I think an especially interesting question is where is the rest of the room (the area where Locke lands) while Ben is there? Is it there and we just can't see it, or did some sort of collapse happen?
<hiero>O34:O4-G17-D58-A1</hiero> zholmboe 20:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
The "sonar" image makes it look, at least to me, like the other side of the wheel in in solid rock.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:22, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I just re-watched several episodes. Robert K S is correct; wheel is turning clockwise for both Ben (pushing) and Locke (pulling). This would make no difference is Locke was in the same or different chamber — clockwise is clockwise no matter what angle it is viewed from. WCFrancis 19:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Then it raises an interesting question: Can the wheel be turned counter-clockwise? Maybe Ben turned it the wrong way and broke it. --Celebok 19:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it's more likely that Ben broke something with the crowbar when he cleared away the ice or that he did not clear enough ice away, forcing the wheel off its axis.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

What about Widmore?

I think that Cahrles Widmore should also be listed among the visitors of the wheel chamber. He stated in 5x07 that he was exiled from the Island. Even if Ben is lying about that the person who turns the wheel can never come back, the same expression for this event seems obvious. Furthermore, Widmore possessed knowledge about the exit and was aware that someone else was coming. I think this strongly indicates that he too turned the wheel at some point of his life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asian Dawn (talkcontribs) 2009-03-17T14:01:01.

It's possible, but for now that's all theorizing. Unless it's confirmed, we can't add that to the page. However, feel free to add that to the theories page if it's not already there. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Timetravelling Chamber

It may seem a bit confusing with all the timetravelling, but something seems odd to me. When Ben turned the wheel in the final episode of season 4, the wheel itself was frozen and hardly moveable. So obviously, it hasn't been turned a long time ago. And it seems also clear that the turning of the wheel was responsible for all the time jumps of the survivors. When Locke turned the wheel, in the unknown, but possilby ancient time periode, we saw that it was fre from ice but somehow slanted and not able to move properly. Now here is the point: this seems that the wheel chamber itself is also moving through time. This or someone else before Locke turned the wheel and left it in that state, which Locke repaired. Furthermore, the polar bear found by Charlotte in Tunesia may also be the prove that someone before turned the wheel-the polar bear.--Asian_Dawn 10:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You are assuming that the wheel exists in real time. It may have a time all its own that is completely unrelated to the worldly time. Kainaw 05:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Number of spokes

Looking at the picture of Ben turning it, it doesn't look like it has an even number of spokes. Anyone agree? Luminifer 05:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Why is the frozen wheel skipping in the 1800s?

I've got something here. Ben turns the wheel at the end of 2004/beginning of 2005, in the last episode of Season 4. This caused the wheel to start skipping. Then everybody starts having these time shifts and then John goes to the Orchid. While going down, a time flash sends everybody to the 1800s (the giant statue is seen, to this is the time they're). When John sees the wheel, it's still skipping. But why? Ben left it skipping in 2005, but now they're in 1800s, hundred years before the wheel started skipping. So why is it skipping in this year? POSSIBLE THEORY: The wheel, like the castaways, travels back and forth in time. It's like the wheel is a living body that also suffers the time shifts. -- Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 20:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

  • The skipping is possible, but I don't think it's established that Sawyer and company were in the 1800s just because they saw the statue. Its age is unknown.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 01:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


The last UQ Did a polar bear really manage to find its way to the chamber and push the wheel? " makes me laugh but I don't think it should be presented in this state. If it is to be kept, could it be reworded to something along the lines of, "Have polar bears previously used the frozen wheel?".

This question feels more neutral; it doesn't suggest that the polar bears found their way down there, nor that they were used (by DHARMA or anyone else) for that purpose. Any objections? Dhalia 20:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I want to laugh, also. If we have to keep the question at all, yours is an improvement over the existing one.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

This has been bothering me for quite some time. Why is it that a different amount of time goes by for Ben and Locke between moving the wheel and ending up in Tunisia? Furthermore, why are Ben and Locke BOTH transported to the future, rather than the current time? Are their exits in tune with the time the island has shifted to, or am I missing something? If someone could clear this up, I'd appreciate it. --Manix 19:39, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

  • My only suggestion has to do with just turning the wheel vs. putting it back on it's axis. It's only a guess. Why did both men go to the time where they needed to be? Nevermind. <smile> --Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

DHARMA logo & the wheel

The DHARMA logo has an 8-spoked design, as does the wheel; perhaps the logo is modeled after the wheel, or vice versa? Perhaps the Dharma project dates back to the wheel's creation? What do you think? Jleonardbc 17:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is an interesting point. You could add this to the Frozen wheel/Theories page, and/or you can join Lostpedia Forums and start a "Frozen wheel/DHARMA logo correlation" thread if there is not already a similar one started. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  18:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Not proven that Man in Black built this wheel

The wheel he built seems identical in design but clearly he didn't have it in place before Mother (or somebody) killed all his people and filled in the well. It's not correct to say that the Orchid wheel chamber was built by the Man in Black and Claudia's people.  Robert K S   tell me  20:52, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support Absolutely. its not the same for sure. the frozen wheel had ancient hieroglyphs surround it.-- Sharon1234  Talk  Flashback  21:28, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Does NOT have 8 spokes

As can clearly be seen from this picture: the wheel does not go all the way around, it has five spokes. I edited the page to reflect this, and someone undid it. I ask someone to please look at that picture and tell me how I'm wrong. Until then, I'm again removing the "eight spokes" bit. Jokesnsmokes 22:31, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Here are a few arguments proposed for discussion. First, the Man in Black's wheel might just have been "under construction". Second, there's no proof the Man in Black's wheel is the Orchid chamber wheel. They have similar or identical designs, but remember, Mother (or somebody) filled in the well where the Man in Black was working, and we have no evidence that that was the Orchid chamber well or that it was ever dug out again. Third, how much sense does it make to have a wheel without spokes on all sides? You'd never be able to make a complete rotation with it. You could argue that the DHARMA Initiative's sonar image of the wheel doesn't clearly show eight spokes, but then again, it doesn't clearly show five spokes, either--only four.  Robert K S   tell me  20:59, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
Well then since you at least admit that there's no conclusive proof either way, I see no reason why the article should still say it has eight spokes. If anything, it shouldn't mention how many it has at all, since it is not known for sure. Jokesnsmokes 05:18, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
If it goes all the way around, it has eight spokes. If it doesn't, it's not a wheel. --- Balk Of Fametalk 16:19, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Name Change from Frozen wheel to Frozen Wheel

Sorry to sound rude, but what is the point of having an uncapitalized W? Might as well make it a capital. I'm about to added a Name Change tag, so... MikeBlue17 15:57, August 24, 2010 (UTC) UPDATE: ADDED. Also, I know it is not part of the other posts, as it is not renaming rather recapitalizing. MikeBlue17 16:00, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

What's the point of having a capitalized w? It's not a proper noun. --- Balk Of Fametalk 16:20, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
Although I understand that it is not a proper noun and is just a word, I still think that, as it is the name of a place and object, it should be capitalized, as it is the title of a page, and therefore like someones name (i.e., Kate Austen)? Can you see my logic, or...? Another example: The Heart of the Island. See? The 'of the' is obviously not capitalized, but the Heart and Island are. Sorry if I am not getting my point across properly and if I seem at all rude. Just trying to explain and failing miserably. ^_^ MikeBlue17 20:27, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
I see what you're saying. But "Frozen Wheel" is not the wheel's name. It's a wheel, and we've named its article "frozen wheel" because the wheel is frozen. No one on the show ever refers to it by name. "Heart of the Island," however, is a location's name. --- Balk Of Fametalk 20:57, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see your points. I give in! ^_^ MikeBlue17 17:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Time anomaly

Seems like everything from "There are five possiblities" on (and possibly parts before that) belongs on the theories page, not the main page. --Cap'n Calhoun 18:26, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Pictogram voting support Agreed. That section of the article only needs to describe the fact that there is a time anomaly around the frozen wheel chamber. It can state that the explanation of how it works is unclear, but it's not appropriate to state "there are five possibilities" and then list them. --Celebok 05:50, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
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