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** I'm for this one, Deja Vecu is very neat, but this is more concise. --[[User:Frankie Viturello|Frankie Viturello]]
 
** I'm for this one, Deja Vecu is very neat, but this is more concise. --[[User:Frankie Viturello|Frankie Viturello]]
 
* '''Flash'''
 
* '''Flash'''
  +
  +
*'''Déjà vécu''' after reading its WP description, IMHO this is indeed the valid label.--{{User:Nomad/sig}} 21:37, 15 February 2007 (PST)
   
 
== Red Shoes ==
 
== Red Shoes ==

Revision as of 05:37, February 16, 2007

Yay a Desmond ep! --lewisg 02:33, 30 January 2007 (PST)

With Penny and Charles Widmore - sounds awesome --Nickb123 (Talk) 04:48, 30 January 2007 (PST)
  • The promo photos for this episode confirm it as a Desmond flashback episode. Can we change the article? ShadowUltra 13:31, 2 February 2007 (PST)
  • I agree and with penelope and charles widemore in it it would be hard for it not to be. :-) --Princess Dharma (banned) 06:07, 4 February 2007 (PST)

Did this episode really take place in London? Notice that the Royal Scots recruitment poster spelt "Honour" incorrectly for the locale. Is this just an oversight? Or does it hint at something more going on with people manipulating Desmond? --Nullzilla 21:54, 14 February 2007 (PST)

  • Think it's a slip due to the myriad details required to pass Hawaii off as London. They did a decent job on the street scene overall, but the pub is riddled with giveaways (too big, too clean, not smoky enough, and what were they drinking? Too opaque to be bitters). Tinman 06:56, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Title

Hm.. Room 23.. Flashes Before Your Eyes.. Anyone see a connection there? :D --lewisg 15:33, 8 February 2007 (PST)

  • No, not really. I see it as flashes forward as well as flashbacks, I think this is gonna be a trippy episode. However, room 23, best part of Not In Portland.

Unprotection

I think it's the right time now.  ODK Talk   Sandbox 20:11, 14 February 2007 (PST)

Note to self or others that have DVRs

  • Gave away my DVR recently, so I'm going to have to wait until I see it online, but if another good editor gets to it first, would be nice too. I'd like to put some of Ms. Hawking's direct quotes into the Fate vs free will article... there were some gems in there definitely worth noting along that theme. --PandoraX 22:10, 14 February 2007 (PST)
  • Although Mr.s Hawking seems to indicate that fate is inevitable, I liked that Desmond's friend counters that with "your thesis is a bit neat - the wild card, partridge, is unpredictability. Run the same test ten times, you'll get ten different outcomes. That's what makes life so wonderfully -". But some quotes from her: (Desmond: I'll take it) "No, you won't." - "And f you don't do those things, David Desmond Hume, every single one of us is dead." - (Desmond: "Why didn't you do anything?") "Because it wouldn't matter." - "The universe, unfortunately, has a way of - course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path. Just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond, you do it because you're supposed to." - (Desmond: "I can choose whatever I want.") "You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do." --Jackdavinci 23:02, 14 February 2007 (PST)
  • Great references, Jack. If you are sure that they are word-for-word, please add them to Fate vs. free will. If not, we can wait for the transcripts to come in next week. --PandoraX 17:57, 15 February 2007 (PST)
  • I'm pretty sure she said Desmond David Hume. Because otherwise his name would be David, not Desmond... why would someone go by Desmond if that was their middle name, and they have something perfectly normal like David as their actual name?  :) --Andfound815
My actual name is John Bradley Peele, however I've gone by Brad for as long as I remember. So its possible, you really just need to watch it.--Kilgore Trout
I know a lot of people who go by their middle names (one of whom only has an initial as a frist name!) but you are correct - she says "Desmond David Hume".

first half,

can someone please discribe what happened in the first half of the episdoe and have information on what the flashback/deja vu included? --Kilgore Trout

David Hume was one of the great British philosophers, known most for his Utilitarian theories of human motivation. Might be a clue towards insight into Desmond's M.O.

Graybridge game?

Is Graybridge a real football team? If so the uniqueness of the game in question could be used to pinpoint the exact dates of Desmond's flashbacks. --Jackdavinci 00:22, 15 February 2007 (PST)

No, they don't exist. Plus, even if they did it would still be hard to determine which game that was - the events described weren't that unique.

They were unique - Desmond calls them 'miraculous'! :-) But it's sad to hear that they don't exist.

Flashes

I was thinking that the inititial flashes when Desmond turns the key would be informative but on slow-mo I didn't notice anything special. Did I miss something? --Jackdavinci 02:03, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Charlie in Desmond's FB

So given Desmond's time scale, when he meets Charlie this must be before his time in Driveshaft? Otherwise, people might have recognized him on the street. So then...how far into the future can Desmond see? Bellemichelle 05:13, 15 February 2007 (PST)


How does Penny have a copy of the photo she took with Desmond as we see during the last scene of Season 2 finale? Desmond took the photo and has it on the island. How could she have a copy? Could that scene from the finale not be parrellel to when Desmond turned the key, but rather in the future, a 'flash' of what is to happen sometime much later after Desmond, (or just the picture) make it off the island?

She actually tucked that photo into his copy of "Our Mutual Friend". He didn't even know he had it until he was about to commit suicide. She may have made a copy before putting it in there. -BearDog 09:47, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Flashback VS. Lucid Dream VS. Deja Vu VS. Combination

Wow ... what an interesting episode.

I'm not sure if calling the "flashback" sequence "Deja Vu" is nessecarily correct ... since, while he EXPERIENCES Deja Vu at times during his "flashback" (which is more likely a lucid / waking dream state while he's in some type of comatose state) he's not experiencing "Deja Vu" in the dictionary definition sense of the word.

While what he experiences isn't an "actual" historical flashback as we're used to seeing them on the show ... like a dream, it may or may not contain facts or elements that happened in real life ... and others that are clearly distorted / intergrated with things that Desmond experienced AFTER he left London / became stranded on the island.

I think it's clearly a combination of several things ... but "Deja Vu" while present in some forms, isn't the best choice for a section heading.

-Frankie Viturello

It's best in the sense that it's better than flashback or lucid dream and those are the choices we started with. Some other ideas: "flashing", "quantum leap", "lucid flashback", "flashes before his eyes", "mutable flashback", or perhaps the related term "déjà visité". --Jackdavinci 07:11, 15 February 2007 (PST)
Personally, I like "Lucid Flashback", or "Flashback (Lucid)" -Frankie Viturello
Yeah, "Lucid Flashback" is the simplest and most accurate descriptor of what happened.--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 09:43, 15 February 2007 (PST)
I kind of like "Desmond's flashes" or maybe "Desmond's lucid flashes" since that is how they are referred to in the title but "Desmond's lucid flashbacks" works for me too --Jackdavinci
I like "Lucid flashback". This follows the convention of the other article episodes which use "Flashback" rather than "Locke's flashback". It seems the simplest, and I prefer having the word "flashback" in there. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 09:54, 15 February 2007 (PST)

I would like to suggest that instead of calling the extended "flashback sequence" deja vu, we simply call it a flashback (or extended flashback, if you like). It isn't an flashback to when Desmond broke up with Penny exactly, but to what happened when Desmond turned the Failsafe key. In doing this, he somehow triggered, for lack of a better term, a fugue state involving a reliving of his breakup with Penny. Also, his life flashed before his eyes and stopped here at this memory, the one thing above all else he would change about his previous life. This is similar to Mr. Eko's first encounter with the Monster, in which the Monster seemed to access all of Eko's memories. Therefore, we should consider that this flashback was one of the most intense encounters with the Monster to date -- and that all of the flashbacks are subtly or overtly the work of the Monster. How this fits into the Discharge mythologically, I'm not sure.--Boloboffin 02:24, 15 February 2007 (PST)

I moved this down here, because it's talking about the same thing. This is a flashback - not to Desmond's break with Penny, but to what happened to him after activating the Failsafe, and what happened was this lucid dream/fugue state/whatever.--Boloboffin 12:40, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Any other suggestions instead of "Deja Vu"?

From the discussion above, it looks like nobody likes "Deja Vu". Lots of other suggestions above. I tried changing it to generic "Flashback", but it was immediately reverted. What should we call it? In the rest of the site, we are calling it a flashback: Flashback characters, Flashback tally, etc. We should probably be consistent. -- Dagg talk contribs4 8 20:19, 15 February 2007 (PST)

  • I kind of like Deja Vu (when I first saw it, I said "Wow", someone thought of the perfect subheading)... it is how Desmond describes it (yes, it's more than your typical deja vu, which is just perception alone, but the French word describes it pretty well... "Seen it before"). I think it's pretty accurate for how he experiences it. I would argue against flashback regardless, because I think it's better to differentiate it from the other episodes, since this one is pretty distinct in how it emphasizes a nonlinear time element in the plot--he appears to be actually reliving the events, not just thinking about them. But let's take a straw poll on it. I'll put some popular suggestions down, feel free to add other suggestions as well. --PandoraX 20:34, 15 February 2007 (PST)
  • PS: Lucid flashback isn't too bad either... but is there any term that invokes the fractured timeline now introduced into the plot?
  • PPS: Just saw this.... it's a more esoteric term, but probably describes what happened in this story better; changing my vote down one. Deja vecu
  • For consistency's sake, I prefer Flashback, with a footnote or italicized and indented note explaining the difference. I agree with Dagg that this applies to how we treat the other information on the site (tallies, flashback characters, etc.), as well as the fact that it does follow the general pattern of lost episodes since 1x03: information about a character's past provides about half the content of each episode, and that phenomenon is what we are referring to. Any further hairsplitting belongs in the information content of the article, rather than changing conventions of LP article structure. Regardless of if it "really" happened, or "mostly really happened but he was/wasn't really there", it is structurally what we refer to as a "flashback". In other words Eko's flashes of his past when he encountered the smoke monster are clearly not flashback sequences, and clearly a different phenomenon than Desmond's narrative sequences in this episode that describe events before the island. IMHO. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:38, 15 February 2007 (PST)
  • I hear you, though I did add disclaimers in our other flashback articles which clearly state the difference. Santa, vote below... are you going with Flashback (plain) or Lucid flashback? --PandoraX 20:46, 15 February 2007 (PST)
  • Oh, and here's another suggestion. Does it really have to be an either/or type of solution? Couldn't we have a slashed word, such as Flashback/Deja vu? That way, the consistency is invoked, yet the section is clearly marked as being different and unique from other flashback sequences (which again, I'd argue it is; Eko does not relive his past in one continuous segment, and then come back to try to change events). --PandoraX 20:58, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Straw poll

  • Déjà vu
  • Déjà vécu
    • --PandoraX 20:34, 15 February 2007 (PST)
  • Flashback
  • Lucid flashback
    • I like this one that someone else above suggested. "Lucid" = like lucid dreaming; "Flashback" = the word used on the rest of the site.-- Dagg talk contribs4 8 20:42, 15 February 2007 (PST)
    • I'm for this one, Deja Vecu is very neat, but this is more concise. --Frankie Viturello
  • Flash
  • Déjà vécu after reading its WP description, IMHO this is indeed the valid label.-- 21:37, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Red Shoes

I paused and zoomed the Red Shoe Man's death, and the circular logo on his shoes says something like "PF FLYERS" and in the center of the circle it reads: "PF" --Frenkmelk 07:59, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Yes, from what I can gather, they're a real brand of shoes. The shoes featured in that episode have a similar design style to Converse "Chuck Taylors" here's a link to the PF Flyers website. www.pfflyers.com --Frankie Viturello

The Red Shoes are another great Wizard of Oz Reference as well.

Unanswered Questions

I left this for now...

"Desmond's power to see into the future is still unexplained. Even if he did actually travel back in time, he would only have knowledge of events that occured before the hatch imploded, not after like Locke's speech and the lightning strike."

We don't know to what point in his life Desmond lived. We only know that the hatch explosion 'unlodged' him from linear time, and that the fall in the flat is where he returns. It brings to mind "Slaugherhouse 5" and the final episode of Star Trek:TNG.

Only fools are enslaved by time and space!

Pharmakon 09:55, 15 February 2007 (PST)

If his knowledge all comes from "re-living" periods of life, or coming "unstuck in time" (Slaughthouse-5 style), he must have run through his "current" time on the island *a couple of times already* though - if Charlie was electrocuted the first time around (for arguments' sake, lets say that was the first 'death'), he would never have drowned trying to save Claire. So to know at least two things to do to save Charlie, the would have to be **at least** Desmond's third time through this time period. So just saying that his "flashback life" played out once (but it played out all the way through the island experiences) might explain the lightening, but it doesn't explain saving Claire.

I think Desmond really did "return" to the island right when he got hit with the bat, but his time "in the past" does not really directly explain his ability to save Charlie. Perhaps he travels in time more than that, multiple times, on other occasions? Or was that "London '97 thing" a one-off experience, with all other "predictions" coming in the form of sudden flashes or visions (as he suggested) - which would be a different kind of experience to his extended deja vu back in London.

On the subject of travelling multiple times through the same periods of your life... note that the Oracle-style lady says ambiguously "you're a first timer.... I can always tell!", i.e. first time reliving things, perhaps?

Also an unanswered question: why does the Oracle-style lady put so much effort into urging Desmond not to try and change things, yet say he won't succeed anyway? But at the same time say he'll "kill us all" if he doesn't go to the island? Which is it lady, he can change things (but then he might kill people), or he can't?

Hmm, long post, sorry! Indigo Vapour 10:31, 15 February 2007 (PST)


Ok, so it's more of a "Groundhog's Day" style re-occurance! Maybe the mid-season filler "Daybreak" was, in actuality, another clue!! (Ok, maybe not on that last one)
Good point about Hawking (no guess as to where THAT name came from!). She does present a paradox, but then again, so is time travel!
This also plays on the notion of the Buddhist notion of reincarnation. We have to live life again and again until we get it right, and then... nirvana. Maybe this time around, Desmond will get it right, since I'm fairly confident he told Penny where to find him and what to look for!
Pharmakon 10:51, 15 February 2007 (PST)

I was about to discuss the same thing as Indigo. Desmond's lucid-flashback/time-trip cannot be a one off event if it's to explain how he's seeing things that have happened after the hatch explosion, and in fact Indigo is not wrong when he says that it must've happened at least twice - since in one of those memories Charlie had already died by lightning, and in current 'present' he had died trying to save her Claire from drowning. Therefore - Desmond has travelled at LEAST 3 times. Once when he turned the fail-safe key, once after the lightning struck, and once again after Charlie had (would have had) drowned. It would take 3 such trips to explain what we've seen so far - since the events in the last two are mutually exclusive. A 4th trip to explain his knowledge of Locke's speech is not necessary since it doesn't coincide with any mutually exclusive event.

The real issue I had is with our new Oracle-Like old lady. The problem is this - IF she IS a figment of his subconscious - then the whole time-trip back sequence is a hallucination - induced by the monster or not - and therefore doesn't AT ALL explain how Desmond could be seeing future events. However, if she is NOT a hallucination - i.e. - if she is real - then what the hell is going on? This blows the whole conceptual stakes up quite a bit - and it starts looking either like a pocket reality or like a involving well, epic entities. So the problem is this; accept the woman as hallucination and you still don't know how Desmond knows the future, accept Desmond's trip isn't a hallucination and realize that the story is much, much, more...well, cosmic than anything we'd bargained on so far...

Best episode in quite a while :) Good - cause I didn't like Not in Portland so much.

KarmaMole 10:58, 15 February 2007 (PST)

  • You guys should definitely join our forum and have a good chat in there... it's hard to have an ongoing theoretical discussion in the talk pages here, but I liked the points made (I too noted the Matrix/Slaughterhouse 5 similarities. If you listen to the podcasts, also, it's clear that D & C were pretty fascinated by the Daybreak series this winter (they keep joking they should do a podcast for that show as well), despite the early cancellation. That should have been the first cue that they would try this Groundhog Day/parallel universe storyline on us! --PandoraX 17:56, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Time Loop

I have thought from previously seeing "The Cost of Living", that in the end, when you see Eko and Yemi as children walking back into the sunset, we are seeing the recycle of time on the island. It seems intended that the last shot seen is the same as the first shot seen, and the recent episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" seems to back this up now. Any other thoughts? --Kilgore Trout 12:17, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Drinking songs?

Can anyone identify for the cultural references section the songs (and jokes?) Desmond and Charile were singing/telling while they were drinking? I don't recall everything but I remember something about a 'girl with one leg and a heart of gold'. --Jackdavinci

Interesting Connection

Desmond consummated his fate by throwing the ring into the Thames River. His beloved novel of Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend, opens with a few miscreants searching the Thames for valuables.

Dream Type Flashbacks

I was, at the start, mainly focusing of flashbacks of the four people in the Hatch when the Fail Safe Key was turned. However I believe that we should compile a list here of dreams or flashbacks or instances that connect with the idea that things are being shown or elluded to before they actually take place, or in Visions of the deceased coming back to life. I think there is also a connection with some of the visions seen, and the bodies that are buried or resting on the island. Please note instances where these charecters take form via visions. I would like if a few others could help. Anyone feel free to edit, add ideas, or challenge ideas stated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kilgore Trout (talkcontribs) .

Wouldn't this be better suited to the premonitions article? --Jackdavinci
I'm working on some information and the setup as now, I'll explain some of my ideas but they are all geared toward this article, and this episode as the anchor of the theory. Check back tomorrow and if you still feel the same way I'll consider moving it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kilgore Trout (talkcontribs) .
I think it might be best served as notes added to either premonitions or dreams and visions also. --PandoraX 21:02, 15 February 2007 (PST) PS: Please sign talk notes.

Locke

  • Episode "Further Instuctions" Season "3"
    • In the sweat lodge, for a time it seems Locke will not see anything, until Boone shows up sitting next to him. Locke, at this point, can't talk, but mouths "I'm sorry" to Boone. Boone forgives him and says that he'll be able to talk when he has something worth saying.
    • Boone then escorts Locke, again confined to the wheelchair, through the airport, saying that someone in the airport needs his help. Charlie, Claire and Aaron are "fine, for awhile", and appear to be a family in the vision. He sees Jin and Sun arguing, but Boone says that Sayid can handle it. Hurley is behind the counter of the ticket agency, entering the Numbers into a computer. Kate and Sawyer are bantering in the waiting line at the scanners, while Jack is being scanned with a hand-held metal detector (which emits the beep of the computer timer in the Hatch) by Ben Linus. Boone says that Locke "can't help them, at least not yet."
    • Desmond is the pilot in the vision, and has three attractive flight attendants following him, to which Boone responds "he's helping himself." Desmond is on an escalator when we first see him, and for a second, you can see a woman who resembles Penny taking the escalator up. Locke rides to the top of the escalator and finds blood all over Mr. Eko's stick. Locke concludes that he must save Eko's life, as Boone says he first has to clean his own mess.
  • Episode: "?" Season: "2" Link:
    • In a dream, Yemi appears before Eko and directs him to climb the cliff. Upon reaching the top, Yemi says "Wake up John", and in terror, Eko loses his grip of the cliff and falls back to the bottom. Locke is shown waking up from a disturbing nightmare. When he begins to describe his dream, Eko tells him that the priest he saw was his brother, Yemi. Locke stated that Yemi wanted him to follow. He then looks up the cliff from his dream, and Eko proceeds to climb the cliff.

Mr. Eko

  • Episode "?" Season "2"
  • Flashes in dream: (There were other scenes from the flases, however I'm only including those I feel connect or relate to my theories and assertions.)
    • The smoke coming out of the forest towards Mr. Eko.
    • Bare feet walking in the jungle with the teddy bear on a leash behind them.
      • (When this actually happened, Eko seemed to know that the people he was refering to left no traces. This could have also been from previous attacks on the Tailies.)
    • Flames with the Arrow logo behind them.
      • (The first thing I thought about was the similarity between the arrow and the hand on a clock. Could this hatch be related to the flow of time on the island?)
    • Mr Eko holding the Bible (the one with the missing film in it?).
    • Mr Eko's hand on Goldie's jaw (when they discovered him in the jungle).
    • Close shot on Locke's face (he looks surprised).
    • A body face down in the water (wearing blue or purple, probably also from when the tailies crashed).
      • (I thought this could have something to do with the near drownding of Claire, however the clothing are clearly different and the corpse has brown hair.)
    • Very dark shot of Mr Eko with the black smoke in the foreground. His brother's face is in the smoke.
      • (Seen before his death, a dead on vision of what his end fate is.)
  • Episode "The Cost of Living" Season "3"
    • The very first (chronologicaly) flashback scene you see of Mr. Eko is of him and his brother Yemi walking into the sunset, and upon his death, this is the last scene you are left with.
      • (I have thought from previously seeing "The Cost of Living", that we are seeing the recycle of time on the island. It seems intended that the last shot seen is the same as the first shot seen, and the recent episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" seems to back this up now.)
  • He also seemed to know to taste the ground that was salted to prevent growth.

Desmond

  • Episode "Further Instructions" Season "3"
    • While Hurley is wandering back to camp, he comes across a naked Desmond, who emerges out of the bushes. Hurley gives him a tie-dyed shirt from his backpack, while Desmond tells him he just woke up naked, after the implosion. He explains to Hurley about the Fail Safe key, and Hurley asks him if the turning of that key was what "made the blender noise" and "the sky turn purple". Desmond replies he missed that. Hurley tells him the Island vibrated, and that also Jack, Kate and Sawyer saw that, "right before they got bags pulled over their heads." Desmond tries to calm his down, saying that Locke plans on going after them, just like he said in his speech. When Hurley, in confusion, says Locke only said he is going after Eko and the polar bear, Desmond apologises, saying he is a bit shook up.

Questions/New Ideas

--Kilgore Trout 18:49, 15 February 2007 (PST)


That is interesting, but Charlie's happened before The Discharge. Then again, now that we're confirmed to be working with non-linear time, that doesn't mean much... Did Eko have any in Season 3 himself?--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 14:54, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Possible cultural reference

I've heard about the movie The I inside which is said to have a plot very similar to this episode. Has anybody seen that movie and can confirm that rumour? --Perpetka 16:19, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Full/middle names

  • It seems strange that both Desmond and Charlie's full names - including middle names, are explicitly mentioned in this episode, but I can't think of what it would signify. Any ideas? --Jackdavinci

Magical Fate Fairies

  • Altho the 'fate' aspect of the time travel is portrayed in a mysterious supernatural seeming way for dramatic effect, there's no reason there can't be a more scientific (or science fiction) reason that doesn't rely on "magical fate fairies: restoring the time line. Stephen Hawking himself, the king of theoretical physics, has pretty much endorsed the physics version of magical fate fairies, proposing that because our current understand of physics does allow for time travel, that there needs to be some explanation for the grandfather paradox - his idea being that it is somehow prevented. One physicist showed that if you used a wormhole to time travel, and tried to send a billiard ball through with a trajectory that would knock itself out of its original path through the wormhole, it would end up self-correcting. My own pet theory is that the probability waves that propogate to and from the future and usually only collapse at the present moment are involved. Basically, if you change the past, the most probable new future will be the one closest to the original one. Rather than complicated 'magical fate fairies' you are just travelling along the 'path of least resistance'. --Jackdavinci

KRONOS doesn't mean Time

I am from Greece. The greek word for Time is KHRONOS (Greek: Χρόνος) or chronos. I think the connection of KRONOS and Time is wrong and has to be removed.

Kronos is Greek is Cronus, father of Zeus. -- Magioladitis 18:34, 15 February 2007 (PST)

Another Clock work Referance

i know im probably way late for this but i just started to reread A Clockwork Orange for the second time and i noticed the main character says "brother" about every 3 sentances and I thought it might be another conection to the book since the Room 23 and his flash backs —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brothah22 (talkcontribs) .

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