The End of the Timeline Fracture Theory

For the past three or four episodes, I have been signalling that the theory had been looking increasingly untenable. This week's episode appeared to have put the final nails in the coffin:

  1. The appearance of FS Pierre Chang, presenting an award to Hugo, would seen to show pretty conclusively that if FS Chang had been in Dharma 1974-1977 and the events of the time travelling losties had occurred, he would not have been so calm about presenting Hugo with an award, when Hugo appears the same age as the last time he would have seen him.
  2. The fact that Hugo is so famous, would mean that anyone who had been in Dharma 1977, if the time travelling losties had been there, would have recognised Hugo
  3. The fact that many FST characters are now 'remembering' events from the OT, which, if the timelines were running in parallel, would not yet have occurred (eg Hurley's date with Libby did not occur until almost 2 months after 22nd Sept - the tailies did not meet the midsectioners until 48 days after the crash).

All of this runs entirely counter to a time fracture theory, and in order to maintain it, those proponents who still believe it, would have to come up with some really convoluted explanations to deal with all these issues. In particular, (1) & (2) appear to kill off completely any Jughead 'split the timelines' notion.


I shall be posting a definitive theory to that effect. If you have objections, post it below.--Sean Sheep 17:22, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

  • It does seem that the FST scenario is actually in the future for the losties. They restart their lives in the alternate reality where they have the things they wanted. Desmond, like the rat in Faraday's experiment, has his conciousness sent into his future for a while by Widmore until he touches his constant, Penny. Woowoo1111 00:48, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
  • Also Chang has two arms, which seems to suggest that the Jughead detonation didn't occur in FST Hawkdeath 10:51, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
  • No objections at all. Jughead did something - was it just a time shift for the Losties (but not anyone else)? And ... does that mean FS is just what MiB uses to get out, or a trick Jacob uses to keep him locked in? Or something else - like a DHARMA experiment?    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   15:30, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


I reverted Jim's edit. This is the quote from The Incident, Part 2:

However, the pocket of energy dragged the entire drill down into the hole, crushing Chang's left arm in the process. Miles helped him free his arm pinned under the beams, and Chang fled the site. ("The Incident, Part 2")

Chang's left arm was crushed in the incident. We have seen in the OT that he is disabled in this arm. While it is possible that the two events are unconnected, it is not the mosty likely interpretation. If FS Chang had suffered the injury it is almost certain that he would not have the use of both arms. Therefore this is a crucial piece of evidence that FS Chang was not present at the Jughead incident in 1977.--Sean Sheep 16:32, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

  • The degree of Chang's arm injury has never been satisfactorily explained, imo. His arm was not shown to be "crushed" in The Incident, Part 2 and, given special effects sophistication, such an injury could have been displayed. Having "two good hands" would have better described the difference of FST Chang from OT Chang.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:23, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

The obvious and my projection

The most obvious element is that because Juliet detonated the bomb, she and everyone else survived, period. Now the projection/s

It's very possible that Desmond ran down John Lock because possibly 'the black one' was going to teleport into the real John Lock's body upon leaving the island, as would the rest of the survivors. By killing the vessel (John Lock), Desmond may have defeated the Black One.

I've always seen the really cool possibility that those still on the island could get the choice of staying on the island, (one possibly to become Jacob's replacement) or be merged with their living counterpart alive on the mainland. Or even summoning their 'other half' back into their body on the island, which would be best for Kate.

This could also be done with the spirits of the Dead. They have clearly said the island doesn't give up its dead, but the bomb Juliet detonated surpassed the islands say.

--Lolo-Okole 18:33, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

To the Creators

Just in case it never occurred to you...

You could make a FANTASTIC anti-smoking spot with the smoke monster. You could even use Mr. Echo's footage.

Just have some smoker utter "What can a little smoke do to you?" as they light up. Then the smoke monster: WOOOOOO-WOOOOO-BLAM-BLAM-BLAM-BLAM!

)

--Lolo-Okole 18:37, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Spoilers

I'm certainly not trying to put forth any spoilers and I agree with the spoiler policy, but why in heck do so many theories have blatant misinformation in them? Based on the "coming attractions", even taken with several Tbsp of salt, there are theories presented here which are just wrong. Why? Cabeckett 22:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

  • Some people just haven't paid enough attention and connect the wrong dots. It frustrates me too because the folks delete things you write based upon their incorrect interpretation of what's going on.
  • Some people (like me) don't watch the previews. I turn off the show as soon as the credit "BOMP" hits and I avoid all adverts throughout the week. Hawkdeath 11:05, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

All Bets Are Off

Weren't we specifically told Libby would play no further part in the series because the actress playing her was otherwise engaged or some other reason? I think it's time to review the things that supposedly 'won't' happen...

O.k. so can someone tell me just how they think anybody can escape via the crashed jet???? Those things need lots of fuel and one long, straight and flat runway. It could never happen - the only way off the island is the sub.Littletodo 16:53, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the Ajira jet landed on the "runway" that Kate and Sawyer were cleaning rocks from when they were held captive on Hydra. Couldn't it be possible since we haven't seen the full runway? Also, the jet should still have some fuel left in it, they don't put only enough fuel to make it to any given destination. --Tenaciousd 23:51, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Edited: Why Desmond Hit Locke

Below is the content removed. Mainly I consolidated. Much of the material was duplication, saying the same thing in a different way with different headings. I removed "other" theories relating to theories which had very little to do with the "why did Desmond Kill Locke" material. I removed all discussion and argumentation. I removed all casual remarks and bright ideas. Most of the material was completely lacking in any supporting evidence whatsoever, rather it had speculative possible scenarios. Unfortunately what remains is more of the same but at least it reflects the main speculations originally contained. As you can see it was an unreadable mash. --   Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:21, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

'Deja Vu Flash'

Desmond needs Locke to have a near-death experience like himself and Charlie to show them the existence of the original timeline. This is supported by Desmond's previous statement in "Happily Ever After" after giving the flight manifest to the driver that "[He] just need[s] to show them something."

  • Charlie was willing to take the chance of drowning Desmond when he drove them into the bay. Likewise, Desmond was willing to take the chance of killing Locke to facilitate the original timeline awareness he received through Charlie's dangerous stunt.

Desmond was attempting to force a shift of consciousness for Locke between the timelines. This is supported by Sun's realization of her pregnancy in The Package. She wasn't referring to the Sideways Timeline, but the Original Timeline. This near-death experience brought back the memories of her pregnancy. Desmond somehow knows this and ran over Locke to trigger this phenomenon.

  • Actually Sun already knew she was pregnant before she was shot. She told Jin at the hotel there was something she wanted to tell him (the pregnancy) before they were interrupted by Keamy.

'Déjà Vu Prior to Oceanic 815 Crash'

  • Desmond was attempting to recreate the most traumatic event in Locke's main-timeline existence, his fall from an 8 story building at the hands of his father. In the alt-timeline, Locke's relations w/ father are seemingly good so we can assume his disability did not arise this way.
  • Desmond has no idea that Locke fell out of the building, because whenever Desmond would have seen Locke on the island he would have been walking. Desmond was trying to kill Locke because he believed Flocke was Locke when he pushed him in the well.


'Déjà Vu After Oceanic 815 Crash'

  • Desmond wants Locke to regain his ability to walk -- running him over is an excuse to get him to a hospital where spinal super surgeon Jack can work his magic. The moment alt-Locke regains his "footing" is the critical experience-parallel that will open his eyes à la Desmond, Charlie, Hurley, Faraday, etc.
  • Locke had no love on the island so giving him a near death experience was the only way to shift his mind to normal timeline Locke
    • It is not clear if Desmond is aware of who precisely Flocke is. He tells Flocke he is Locke, but it is possible he was lying to Flocke for his own purposes.
    • Or maybe this is a hint: Locke is part of Flocke... he's still in there somehow.
      • Locke does seem to be in there--Flocke yelled Locke's mantra: 'don't tell me what I can't do'.
    • Locke arguably holds a characteristic unlike any of the other passengers on Oceanic 815. Most of our Losties (Jack, Hurley, Desmond, Charlie) have had someone that they loved on the Island in the OT. Even Ben could be argued to have had Alex as his sort of "love-themed constant" that would aid him in the memory recall that we're seeing in the Side-Timeline. In fact, as of yet, all the scenes showing us characters recalling memories from the OT are intimate and romantic. Which raises the question: What memories would come fleeting back to Locke? As strange as it sounds, Locke's closest "love" or "companion" on the Island in the OT was the Island itself.
      • Not all of the memories were of love. Desmond's first one was of Charlie drowning. Then later when he met Penny, he had a love one.
        • The Charlie memory, however, was related to Penny (The note on Charlie's hand).
      • To take it a step further- perhaps alt-Locke will merge with pre-MiB Locke meaning we will have the revival of the Locke everyone loves.

'Revenge'

  • Since Desmond's mind is aware of two time-lines and he thought Man in Black was the real Locke, he wanted to take revenge on Locke for throwing him into the well in OT.
    • It is not clear Desmond believes Flocke is Locke.
    • This seems less likely as Desmond has now found his purpose. He did not appear angry or distressed when he ran down Locke. He seemed to have a very good reason for doing it.
    • Or probably Desmond, somehow, knows that Locke and Jack will meet at the hospital, and this encounter (and a physical touch) will lead both to remember the Island timeline. Not just Jack and Locke. Sayid, Claire, Kate and Charlie have all been/are at the hospital and so will Sun and Jin be.
      • People in the FST can only become cognizant of the OT in one of two ways: A) Due to a near death experience or B)Feeling a love for the first time in the FST with a character they loved on the island in the OT (or re-connecting with their constant if you like). Locke will now have his near death experience and remember in the hospital but Jack will not. Jack will have to wait for his presumed re-connection with Kate before he eventually remembers (as will Kate, killing two birds with one stone as we're running out of episodes now). Which leaves A) Sawyer, B)Sun and C)Jin as the only ones left to remember: A) Sawyer's need to remember opens the door for a possible 'three-way' memory retention scene where Jack, Kate and Sawyer all meet up in the one spot (How about Sawyer arresting Kate and somehow winding up at the hospital in a room with Jack anyone?) B) Sun has a bullet lodged deep in her bladder and so she can't hold on much longer (...thank you!), this near death experience will cause her to remember quite shortly as Jin will presumably be by her side as she fights for her life C) Jin will realise his true love for Sun as he watches her nearly slip away from him and this will be the push he needs to remember the OT. If you argue that Sawyer and Kate wind up at the hospital (which might be a stretch but just go with me on this) you can have an excuse for Locke, Jack, Jin, Sun, Sawyer and Kate being at the hospital at the same time. For giggles, let's assume Desmond finds his way there to keep an eye on Locke *(who he intentionally put in the hospital to have him awaken to the OT - as Locke had no love interest on the island, his was always back on the mainland, the only option for Locke was to go with a near death experience, love always seemed to be a step too far away for him, then all you need is an excuse for Hurley to get there and you can have the whole crew in the one spot for one big scene of "Hey, I kind of remember you"
        • I don't think Jack's connection is with Kate. His beef has always been with Locke, he's always had a more meaningful connection with him in their disagreements. Whereas with Kate, he had a life with her but off the island. The one that had a deep connection with Kate was Sawyer, and that's hinted throughout Sawyer's FST because he didn't have that jolt with Charlotte. It's Kate and Sawyer, Jack and Locke, Charlie has to find Claire, and for Sun and Jin it's their baby.
        • He hit Locke to make Locke remember the other timeline. If you'll notice the look on Locke's face when Jacob touched him in "The Incident," you'll notice that he had a similar look after Desmond hit him. Since Locke was with his soulmate in the alt. timeline, he needed to be reminded in some other way.
          • Not only will Locke remember the other timeline, but he will probably be able to walk like on the island.
            • There is nothing that supports this theory. Memories being "remembered" is a different thing entirely from regaining the ability to walk from another reality.
            • Of course there is. How do you think Locke regained his ability to walk in the first season: it was the impact from falling off the plane. A similar impact will take him back to that moment. If anything his look after he got ran over was exactly the shock he had when he could see his toes moving in the first season.
              • Locke regained his ability to walk due to the nature of the island, not from the impact. That is one of the reasons why he became a "man of faith". And after he went back to LA, he was is a wheelchair again. So the only place where he can walk is the island.
    • Desmond may simply be confusing the two timelines. As we know from previous experiences (Juliet) people don't usually die immediately after falling down a long, deep tunnel. It wouldn't seem that Desmond would care if he was thrown down a well anyway. It appears that Desmond is simply mixing his experiences in both timelines together. He hit Locke with the car because he believed it was MiB. He used Charlie as an excuse for being at the school.
  • Some great points in here. I agree that hitting Locke with the car is Desmond's way to get Locke to the hospital, but I think it is so Jack and fix his spine, like you said, making it possible for him to walk again. and by the two of them connecting, both Locke and Jack start to remember their island pasts.
    • This is killing "two birds with one stone". Locke will meet with Jack at the hospital and Desmond will be arrested or questioned by Miles and Sawyer.
  • Another theory would be that Desmond was really trying to kill Locke in the FST. We have never seen what would happen to a dead body on the island if it's FST person is killed...
    • Maybe real Locke shows back up on the island.
    • In support of this is the manner in which Desmond hit Locke with the car. He accelerated to a very fast speed and turned on impact, as if to maximize the damage to Locke. Seemed a bit much if his goal was to only hurt him.
    • Or, it's like recreating the shock of falling off the building after his dad pushed him off. Maybe it's time for Jacob to appear to his rescue just like when he lost his ability to walk in the OT.
  • Fake Locke comes to the island in the form of real Locke. Thus Desmond killing real Locke would prevent Fake Locke from making the transition. Fake Locke realizes this so he tries to kill Desmond by tossing him down the well.
  • It makes no sense to say that near death experience and love interests are the only two ways to trigger an "OT recall" based only on the fact that these are the only two ways we've seen it happen. Why would this phenomenon arbitrarily have only two unrelated means of triggering it? More likely is that the OT recall is triggered when an incident in the FST mirrors one in the OT regarding something of great emotional significance. OT Charlie nearly died by asphyxiation and was revived by Jack, when the same thing happens to FST Charlie it triggers the "recall". When FST Desmond sees Charlie drowning behind a glass window, that triggers his first OT flash. It happens again when he's bombarded with magnetism, and a third time when he touches Penny. Three events of great significance to Desmond which mirror events or circumstances in the OT. Same thing with Daniel and with Hurley. It isn't just love and near-death events, it's anything emotionally significant to the character. Leads me to think that FST Alex is probably going to die.
    • It makes "no sense"? There are plenty of instances of binary or dual relationships in the Lost franchise. The whole series from episode to episode is peppered with Good/Bad, Yin/Yang, FreeWill/Fate, Black/White, etc. Why not Love and death (or near death) being the primary ways of connecting FS Losties to their OT memories? I'm not 100% married to the idea, but "it makes no sense" stretches it the other way.
      • From a logical standpoint, it makes no sense to assume that because we've seen something happen two ways that those are the only two ways it can happen. Moreover, I'd argue that what prompted Desmonds first OT flash hardly qualifies as a near-death experience given that he was conscious through the whole affair and never really at much risk of death, particularly when the flash occurred. More likely it was re-experiencing the whole Charlie drowning behind glass thing that prompted the flash, which would explain why he flashed to the Not Pennys Boat scene. And finally, would the OT flashes that occurred in the catscan be a near-death experience or a love interest? Or do doses of magnetism maybe constitute a third way in which an OT awareness can occur?
  • You're all forgetting that Juliet was the first person who knew of the FST. When she died Miles tells Sawyer that Juliet wanted Sawyer to know that "it (the bomb) worked". She probably didn't survive because her character doesn't exist in the FST. So then how did she come to know of the FST when she doesn't even exist in it?
    • We do not know that Juliet doesn't exist in the FST. Given the character's history (she had been on the island for 3 years when Oceanic 815 crashed), it is logical to assume that she is alive and well, mourning the death of her sister 3 years back (the time when Richard had recruited her in OT).
    • In fact it seems far more likely Juliet will exists in the FST. At some point soon she will meet Sawyer where she will utter the line from the season premiere "next time we'll go for coffee" and this is what will trigger Sawyer's memory of the OT.
    • There is an argument that can be made for Charlotte being the first to have a "death flash".
  • Desmonds intentions in hitting Locke with the the car were to kill him for what Flocke did in the OT, however Locke will not die, and end up being cured by Jack, triggering his memory of the OT.

'Disrupting MiB's Plans'

  • fLocke will attempt to use the sideways timeline as his way of escape from the island and Desmond was attempting to kill the vessel he would escape to (FST Locke's body)
    • At the beginning of the episode, Desmond said to Fake Locke "You are John Locke"; In a previous episode this season, Ilana said that the MIB cannot change from John Locke's body; So - in the island reality, MIB IS John Locke; Everyone on the island has an alternate self in the alternate universe; So, in order to trap the MIB (John Locke) on the island, Desmond has to remove John Locke from the alternate universe to keep MIB from being able to exist there; Therefore, Desmond attempted to kill John Locke by running him down with his car.
    • There are easier and less conspicuous ways to kill a man than by hitting him with a car, and if something like the fate of the known universe lies in FST Locke dying I'd hope Desmond would have had the sense to put that car in reverse and make sure he finished the job. Desmond wasn't trying to kill John Locke, otherwise he'd be dead.

'Assisting MiB's Plans' The FST takes place in 2004. fLocke is trying to leave the island in 2007. In order for the Ajira plane to carry fLocke to freedom, everybody from the OT who is accompanying him must also be on the FST Ajira flight 316 in three years time. One plane will survive and the other will fade out of existence as the universe course-corrects. By awakening the others, Desmond is serving the MiB, because their desire to discover the truth about their island memories will lead them to board Ajira flight 316, since many of them remember that particular flight as the way back to the island.

'Getting Jack To Fix Him' Desmond knew Locke would be brought to the nearest hospital after he hit him. In Happily Ever After, Desmond saw Jack at the hospital so he's trying to bring Jack and Locke together so that Jack can fix him. After Jack gave Locke his card in LAX, people thought that Locke would be fixed by Jack but after Helen ripped the card, some gave up that hope. But now Desmond is trying to get Locke to go to Jack's hospital forcefully so he can be healed.

  • This sort of idea may indeed happen and coming episodes will reveal if this is the case, however, it is unjustified claim. Some people seem to have this idea that Desmond wakes up every morning, enlightened, inspired, and becoming all-knowing. I really do not think this is the case, in fact, I think Desmond is the simplest straight-forward thinking of all our characters. He's seen so much shit and he questions very little of it. Therefore, it is my belief that Desmond is no more human than anyone else, and actually doesn't know anything more than we do about the various situations surrounding Lost at this moment.
    • It is a simple plan: Guy from the plane works at the hospital, put another guy from the plane in the hospital so they can meet. Just because he doesn't question much doesn't mean he isn't picking things up as he goes along.
      • Well, its a stretch. You have to assume:

I. that, Desmond knows Locke's condition can be fixed by conventional science,

II. that, Jack is a spinal surgeon.

III. that, Locke will even be rushed to Jack's hospital.

IV. that, Jack will even be working on that particular day and time!

  • Desmond doesn't necessarily have to be "all-knowing" or know every detail of how the characters will meet and what they will do -- in fact, it's likely Desmond has no idea how this will go down. However, he knows that destiny will somehow bring them together given that they will be reminded of their alt. lives. All Desmond is thinking is getting Locke to the hospital (a place of significance given Desmond, Jack, and Charlie met there). Increasingly, the idea of "faith" in the unfolding series of events is taking center stage -- ie Desmond; Jack following Hugo -- and one doesn't need to "know" anything; they follow their intuition and just act accordingly.
    • One would expect that he might have wanted to talk to Locke first about going to the hospital and meeting someone there before, you know, trying to kill him for no apparent reason.

And like any poor theory, too many assumptions hold true. It makes more sense that Desmond is doing things on what we know rather on what we assume. He is trying to get the passengers of Oceanic 815 to wake up. His brutal manner in running him down may seem sadistic at first, but really, this life doesn't even matter, so who cares if Desmond has to run him down, it's not even 'real.' However, having said that, I do agree that Locke will end up in Jack's operating room. But its just important to note that its not part of Desmond's plan or forward thinking, this is just another Lost cosmic coincidence or as its simply known as, fate.

  • In addition Desmond's method isn't anymore brutal than Charlie's. Lost is presenting us with another dichotomy or yin/yang scenario. There are two ways for the FST Oceanics to connect to their OT timelines:
Love
Pain, brutality, near death experience
  • Desmond was trying to kill Locke. Like Eloise, he is now simultaneously aware of both timelines, and is trying to manipulate them to stop Locke. When Desmond told MiB he was John Locke, MiB became scared; he new Desmond, in some way, had the drop on him, hence the discussion at the well. Getting thrown into the well after their conversation confirmed it: Flocke needs stopped. But Locke didn't die. At the hospital, Jack will perform surgery on Locke and have his revelation. Then, he'll have to decide whether or not to save the Locke on his operating table based solely on a feeling.

'Because Locke is dead in the OT'

  • In the FST he attempts to kill locke to show him that it is his place to die
  • Desmond is reconciling the two timelines by reuniting all of the lovers from flight 815. Killing Locke in the FST is also necessary to reconcile with the OT where Locke is dead.
    • Killing anyone in the FST is not necessary. Otherwise, Desmond would be required to kill Charlotte, Dan, or keeping it to Oceanic 815 passengers, he would have to kill, Mr. Eko, Boone, etc. or even Charlie, who is alive and well in FST, searching for his OT connection, where he is in fact as dead as Locke is.

'Because FST Locke is MiB'

  • When watched in slow motion, when Desmond is seconds from hitting Locke with the car, the look on Locke's face is not surprise, but anger, very much a FLocke expression. MiB's way of escaping the island involved being able to live as a normal human being in the FST - as John Locke, something Desmond is now aware of.
    • It looks like his face is more surprise than anger.
    • MiB wanting to live life as a substitute teacher does not explain why everybody would be in serious trouble if he leaves the island.
      • He's a bad substitute teacher.
      • Nobody likes substitute teachers.

From top of page

  • I think this page might be nicely structured if we give seperate categories for the various reasons Desmond might have crashed into Locke at the end of the episode. I've put "Revenge" and "Creating a Dejavu Moment" as the two main ideas at present. Maybe someone can phrase them a bit better.--Falstaft 03:42, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
    • Made a few more distinctions (what kind of dejavu flash, addition of the kind of "meta-timeline" disruption a fewer theorists were suggesting)

Lordlion 13:15, April 14, 2010 (UTC) THE PEOPLE THAT IS DEAD IN THE OT CAN REMEMBER EVERYTHING IN FST!!!! Lordlion 13:15, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Boone,Charlie,Libby.... What you think about this??

Taking Flocke's Extended Hand Carries Significance: Moved

Moved here because of lack of any evidence and speculative, also contains disputation.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:21, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

  • MiB is often extending his hand to people (he's now extended it to each of the candidates). Nobody has taken his extended hand until Desmond. The rules of the island are that MIB can't harm (or even touch, for that matter) a candidate, unless they willingly "follow him," as signified by the candidate literally taking MiB's hand. Since Desmond took his hand, MiB was able to harm Desmond (i.e. push him down the well). Desmond probably knew something like this would happen and knowingly took MiB's hand realizing what it would allow to happen.
    • The extended hand is simply a depiction of the choice being offered to follow MIB, or join his side. There are two sides in a war both trying to convice people to fight for their side. This extended hand is a common event, but it is not some rule or anything like that. It's just MIB's method of trying to appear as though he can help those who he offers his hand to. It's part of his con, to gain trust, thats all it is.
      • There is definately significance in taking MIB's hand/being touched by MIB, as there is by being touched by Jacob (Richard was touched by Jacob and received eternal life). It is very obvious each time FLocke extends his hand to someone so far in season 6. Also note that when Locke fell down the well to turn the wheel and broke his leg, MIB appeared as Christian Shephard and spoke to him. Locke then extends his hand to MIB and says "can you help me up?". MIB replies "No,I can't" meaning he cannot/doesn't want to touch him. There must be significance in this.
        • Reaching out the hand is very likely significant, but we do not know that Christian was the Man in Black and not the spirit of Christian. It was most likely the spirit of Christian since Claire identified both Christian and the Man in Black as her friends, thus being two separate people.
        • Also, Christian could've just wanted Locke to do things on his own, including getting up under his own power.
        • The hand extension bears disturbing similarities to Darth Vader's hand extension to Luke in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

FST to Rescue - moved

This is what I removed, all discussion, almost nothing to do with the purported theory.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:32, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

    • He is just trying to make mostly everybody on Flight 815 aware of the other side by making things happen like they did in the original timeline.
    • Flocke cannot become the real Locke. He has not taken or possessed Locke's body. He has simply taken his form. Remember - they made a point of showing Smokey walk by the real Locke's body when he looked like Locke. They've even buried the real Locke. FLOCKE IS NOT LOCKE!
      • This is true; however, MIB does have all of Locke's past thoughts and memories. He is, in effect, the real John Locke plus MIB's personality on top of it (or merged with it, if you prefer). Remove MIB from that equation and you are potentially left with the original Locke.
        • Remove MIB from that equation and the equation is broken. Remove MIB from that equation and the real John Locke is still 6 feet under.
          • Locke's -body- is six feet under. Read more carefully. This theory refers to the transferring of a consciousness. And it doesn't break anything. If you remove "1" from "1+2", you're left with just "2".
        • The MIB, like Jacob, seems to have a thorough knowledge about the lives of all the candidates, so there is not sufficient cause to assume the MIB actually has Locke's thoughts and memories.
          • The MIB was able to state to what Locke's final thought was before he died. There's no way he would have known that otherwise. This, combined with him uttering such characteristic John Locke phrases as "don't tell me what I can't do" indicates that he does in fact possess Locke's thoughts and memories. It makes perfect sense as the MIB in his smoke monster form has always appeared to be reading people in a very similar fashion.
        • But, MIB does use words that the real John Locke did; for example, "don't tell me what I can't do." Isn't that a hint that the real Locke is still trapped somewhere in there? How is it that there can be a clone of the same body anyway? Maybe something to do with a time traveling Locke.
        • MiB could only effect his 'loophole' plan by taking the physical form of a person. He did say there were certain things about John Locke and his attitude towards the island that made him different. In order to deceive/convince others he needed to behave like the real John Locke sometimes and the "don't tell me what I can't do" attitude is very much like MiB's nature against Jacob. Should the FST John locke be drawn to the island because he sees himself as being able to walk in that timeline, or should he see his death and Flocke; the decisions he makes will be the true game changer.
  • It is possible that FST Locke dying could cause him to resurrect in the OT. All the jokes that Damon Lindelof and Carleton Cuse keep making about a "Zombie Season" could actually be a hint of this happening. Seeing Locke's hand come out of the dirt a-la-"Kill Bill vol. 2" would be classic!
  • He is trying to recreate their most important moments at which point they'll remember their island memories. When Desmond's car went underwater Charlie's scene was recreated which made Desmond remember some memories.Hurley's date with Libby and the kiss made him remember his memories. Similarly he is trying to make Locke remember his island self by leaving him on the road with his back broken.
    • Then Desmond is pretty crude...and I thought it was about love. You know...meeting the woman you love.
      • It's not about Love. It's about what makes everyman tick. Some have that with love, others have that with drowning (desmond and charlie), and others have it with a traumatic incident such as coming very close to dying.-
        • They've already stated that it can be Love or a neer death experiance that allows you to get a glimpse of the other side.--WhyDidntUKnow 16:42, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
  • Is it possible that the minute Oceanic 815 crashed, John Locke died and MiB took over his body right then and there? He was just planting seeds and waiting for the right time to escape and kill Jacob? This would explain his love for the island and why he neverwanted to leave. Thoughts?
    • No, John Locke left the island by turning the wheel. If MiB was Locke the whole time, he would've accomplished his goal of escape and there would've been no reason for him to return to the island.

Libby - moved

(just a discussion, moved off theory page    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:35, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

Why did Libby choose to be in Santa Rosa in the FST?

  • Because she was seeing memories from events that never took place. She thought she was losing her marbles.
    • Counterpoint: She said that those memories came rushing back recently upon seeing Hurley on TV. She could have already been in the institution for another reason when this occurred.
      • No, She said she checked herself in because of said memories. That's how she could voluntarily check herself out as well.
        • You don't check yourself 'in' and 'out' of a mental hospital. You check yourself in to their care, like Power of Attorney, not in to the hospital like a hotel. The only way you can be checked out is for them to allow you out because you allowed yourself to be a ward of the hospital.
          • Actually you can, you check yourself in because you feel you need help, if you don't feel you need that help anymore, you can check out.
    • The sad memories are the death of her husband. Seeing Hugo rushes back the feelings she had for him in the OT and the healing they both gained when they connected. After they connected and Hugo was free of his hangups (ie Dave) the Island had no more use for her and she could nicely be removed. Since the Island is sunk now, it can't remove her.--Lucky Day 23:48, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Mysterious Boy Discussion

I extracted a theory. The rest is interesting discussion but all speculation without evidence, so moved here    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:47, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

  • The child is Jacob. The child is MIB. Every man balanced their scale between light and dark, good and evil. Jacob is pure light and pure good - and as stated before, MIB is pure evil. MIB is missing a body, he mimics other bodies when he is not in the form of smoke. He stated that Jacob (the devil as he stated) STOLE his body. Some how this child, Jacob\MIB combo, eventually (probably when he gains the position as island protector) let his dark side split from himself into the form of the black cloud. And instead of battling between evil and good within himself, he battled as good against the darkness. This explains why MIB cannot kill Jacob - because they are one in the same. Also, Jacob and MIB are Aaron. MIB says that his mom was crazy just like Aarons mom. He goes on to say how that caused a lot of problems that could have been prevented. All the work MIB has done to get Aaron off the Island and out of the care of Claire is him trying to prevent what happened so that he never gets trapped.
    • I liked where you were going until you said Aaron was the same person too. That's a little too much, don't you think? I mean, how could he be?
    • I, also, like your theory, but not the Aaron part. Jacob and MIB are the opposite personalities of the same person. Jacob stole MIB's body in the sense that Jacob was able to extract the MIB personality from himself and place it into another body. That's why Jacob and MIB cannot kill each other, they are each other. Dissociative Indentity Disorder with a twist--the negative personality can be exorcised. (Think Fight Club--Ed Norton's character, because of mental illness, believes Brad Pitt's character is a separate person, rather than a distinct personality of his own being. What if, by some island "magic" he could cause the Pitt character to really be a separate being?)
  • The Kid seen in the jungle by Man in Black and Desmond is little Charlie. He's happy to see his Daddy (Desmond).
    • Man in Black tells Desmond to ignore the Kid because he knows Desi will 'sense' who the Kid really is.
  • In a previous episode the Kid tells Man in Black, "You can't kill him". The 'him' he was referring to was Desmond.
  • The kid in this episode is not the same kid as before. The kid in The Substitute had bright, blond hair. This kid had darker, dirty hair, and it did not look like the same actor, at all.
    • It was the same actor - same face, eyes and eyebrows, just his hair looked a little darker - but it is dirty blonde not bright blonde.
    • IMDB confirms that it is the same actor. So his different hair color means something. i won't link to IMDB because there are spoilers there. But it is the same actor.
      • There are two distinctly different kids that have appeared, firstly a younger Jacob (blonde/yin) and secondly a younger MIB (brunette/yang). MIB clearly did not want to face his younger self, hence imploring Desmond to ignore him and becoming quite agitated with his younger self's presence. MIB has clearly strayed from the path he was born to fulfill, i.e act as co-caretaker of the island with Jacob, and does not like to be reminded of his once innocent and pure self (albeit however long ago that was). Previously (...on Lost) younger Jacob had to remind MIB: "You know the rules" to ensure that he doesn't break any protocol whereas younger MIB simply said nothing to his older self, seeming mildly amused and showing slightly bemused non-approval to what he had become. Jacob and MIB were the original 'special' kids and brothers of sorts, but their paths have deviated a la biblical Jacob and Esau, as well as Cain and Abel, with MIB being the new age Cain after having a heavy hand in his 'brother's' death despite not actually holding the knife himself.
        • The Mysterious Boy is the same boy Sawyer and MiB saw earlier in Season 6. In Everybody Loves Hugo, he appears to have aged and grown. Possibly a reincarnation of Jacob.
          • It's only been a couple days, Island-time.
            • He's a very mysterious "boy" that has a lot of knowledge about the island, maybe more than everyone except MiB and Jacob, conventional rules (i.e. "only a couple days passing") most likely do not apply to him.
      • The Mysterious Boy only shows himself to candidates; that's why Richard wasn't able to see him, whereas Desmond did see. That means Desmond is the last recruit and new candidate to replace Jacob. Also there's a subtle look on his face while he's looking at Desmond, which can be inferred as this: MIB does not actually know everything, though it seems he does; and that'd be the twist.
      • Desmond Hume is not a candidate, however he is a "Constant", a link to all candidates, be either bringing them to the island (failed to press numbers in time, leading plane to crash) and now in Sideways Flash bringing the Candidates together (ordering flight manifest from George). He is also linked to the island through the Widmores (Penny, Daniel, Eloise, Charles). Although not a Candidate, certainly a crucial piece of the puzzle, so the Island allows him to see the Jungle Kid.
        • Desmond would almost be acting as a gatekeeper to the Island, making sure that whomever needs to be there finds there way.
        • The kid smiles because this time MiB's actions are going exactly as planned, and the constant, Desmond, is doing exactly what he is supposed to and going where he is supposed to be for a reason.
  • The kid is a young MIB. While in the jungle he appeared to be grasping a walking stick, similar to the one FLocke was whittling earlier.
    • The kid was not grasping a walking stick, he had his hand on a tree.
    • The kid is MIB's lost humanity. He was tricked into his imprisonment after doing something he believed to be right, probably having to do with love. Now MIB is being haunted by what he was now that he has a permanent shape and ran so far away from what he was.
      • And the blond version of the kid is young Jacob - so that blond kid and dark-haired kid (Jacob and MIB) are twin brothers, who always had a reason to be rivals and have been playing "the game" since then. Now, when the blond kid appeared to FLocke he had to stop his plan of killing Sawyer, while when the dark-haired kid appeared to him, he went on with his plan to get rid of Desmond
  • The kid is Claire´s son, Aaron, who was born on the Island. Aaron is the last remaining piece in the puzzle because he had to return to the Island. When the kid says "You know the rules, you can´t kill him" he obviously refers to Jacob, who cannot be killed. He will always find a replacement.
    • No, he was referring to Sawyer. Sawyer was with MiB at the time, and MiB can not kill Sawyer because he's a candidate.
    • I hope it is Aaron. Because if its yet another new character we haven't seen before this season it seems like a cop-out by the writers. The endgame of Lost should rely on clues and information present since season 1. If this boy was in the plan all along, why haven't we seen him before?
  • MIB and Jacob are the same person. The reason they are physically split is due to taking part in a huge electromagnetic event on the island a long time ago and Jacob simultaneously being sent to two different timelines, with one of his "selves" (MIB) losing the Jacob body in the process and turning into a being of tangible electromagnetic energy. The MIB and the Jacob we see now are are Jacob from those two different timelines who have rejoined into one timeline, the OT. The reason MIB is trapped on the island is because if he leaves that timeline, he will gravely endanger both.
  • The kid is a reincarnation of Jacob, who cannot be truly killed. This may explain why Ilana saved Jacob's ashes, as a reference to a phoenix, which reincarnates from its own ashes. Hurley seems to recognize these ashes as being important, seeing as though he kept them. They may be necessary to provide a full reincarnation of Jacob to defeat MIB.--Codeetom 02:38, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Ilana's Sack taken by Hurley

No theory, mainly a review of the episode and reminders of where we've seen it before, and discussion.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:57, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

  • The sack is the same sack found on Adam and Eve in series one and contains the black and white stones.
  • After Ilana blows up, Hurley is seen going through her personal effects. He stumbles upon a sack containing white stones. One for every Candidate left on the island that Ilana needed to protect.
    • On the white stones are the names of the Candidates. Written in black ink.
    • Yes, earlier on in the season we saw Locke throw a stone into the ocean saying it was an "inside joke."
  • Inside the sack are Jacob's ashes, which Ilana previously collected in The Substitute.
    • Most definitely the sack with Jacob's ashes and maybe some other ash. It cannot be little stones with names on it because Ilana was a bit vague on who the exact candidates were, at least with the Kwons.
      • This one's easy: It's Jacob's ashes because it's the same sack that Ilana used to collect Jacob's ashes. How do we know this? The producers set up the shot by establishing that Hurley was looking through Ilana's possessions, including a book with what appears to be Russian written on it (we've seen/heard her speak Russian before). Hurley sees the ashes and thinks that it will be his way to protect himself from MiB. According to the story so far, since Dogen is dead, the ashes don't work anymore (see the Temple Massacre), but Hurley may or may not know this. The sounds you hear when the sack is being picked up or used are the silver beads on the end of the ties used to close the sack. If you watch it in slo-mo, you can clearly see the beads.
        • The Kwon in question of candidacy is Jin for sure. Jacob has been watching them since they were little children. At that point Sun's last name was Paik. Jin is the candidate.
          • However, Jacob touched them both on the day they were married, meaning when they "became" candidates they're last names were both Kwon.
          • Perhaps Jin and Sun are considered to be one character (like Rosencratz and Guildenstern)
          • What if the Kwon in question is their DAUGHTER? Maybe Jacob touched both Sun and Jin in order to make sure they could generate a daughter who could become a suitable candidate.
  • It can´t be ash because you could hear the stones thrum around.
    • After re-watching the scene with the sound on max, you're right, there are some faint stone moving sounds.
      • That's true BUT, if you watch the episode in which Ilana takes Jacob ashes, you also ear some stone moving sounds when she picks them up and you can see that it's the same bag.
        • The sounds are pieces of bone that were not totally burned by the fire. Even when people are cremated in real life, the body is placed in a special chamber where temperatures range between 1800°F - 2000°F and burn for about 2 hours until the body is reduced to ash and many bone fragments, the bones never completely burn to ashes - they break up, splitter but not turn into ash. This was the noise heard, not black/white rocks.http://www.everlifememorials.com/v/urns/cremation-process.htm
          • This is generally true, however, it doesn't seem to apply to Jacob. He seems to have utterly and entirely been disintegrated in what, a matter of minutes? Clearly, there are some special properties surrounding Jacob and his ashes given his unique transformation from flesh to ash.
            • Maybe Jacobs power is the power of super-speed-cremation.
              • In the scene where she gathers his ashes are any bone fragments or rocks seen? It'd be good to get screenshots of all the bags in question to compare.--Lucky Day 15:56, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
  • Just a reminder we also saw the bag when Ilana gave it to Miles to convict Ben!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:57, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
  • The sack contains Nikky and Paulo diamonds. Hurley got them, saw them, and now he want's to get off the island. So he thinks that the plane is his ticket to normal life. So he kabooms all dinamite.--Stabilini 05:03, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • But we saw Miles with the diamonds at beach camp just as the sub arrived.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   07:00, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
    • It can not be the diamonds. More likely a prop mistake by the set designers. They are using the same sack to represent Jacob's ashes, as it has been used to represent other objects. Whatever is in the bag(likely stones) also gives the sack that filled-up shape, so it is believable that they is something in it VeryBadRobot 13:32, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
      • That isn't how productions like this usually work to be honest. It's not like they only have one little sack to be used for all their "little sack shots." They probably have half a dozen or more sacks for use by the first unit, second unit and all the other "little sack shots." They still might have messed up and used the wrong sack, but it's not like JJ Abrams was screaming "Where's the sack? Who's got the sack? Forget it, just use the diamond sack for the shot and we'll edit out the sound." I don't know what the sack is holding btw so I don't care about the theories, just a note on how the prop department works.Cabeckett 01:58, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
      • @Cabeckett. You are wrong on a number of counts. I doubt that they have more than one of these pouches. They only need it for one location and there is no 2nd unit involved. This is TV not big budget film. The props guy has done some podcasts which gives an idea how (relatively) small scale this is. You should check them out. Chances are they have ONE drawer string pouch which they purchased or had made for Ilana's Jacob ashes pouch. That suggests that the pouch Hurley found IS that pouch. But internal evidence is pretty thin. Everytime we've seen the pouch it was the ashes pouch. The confusion really only arises because of the clacking sound heard when Hurley looked inside. Probably nothing. It's Jacob's ashes. Next JJAbrams has pretty well NOTHING to do with Lost. He's listed as Exec Prod, but hasn't been on set since season 2 (he directed one episode), he has never written any scripts and he handed over to Cuse and Lindeloff after the pilots. He recently asked whether someone could explain what the hell was going on in Lost because he had no idea.   Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   03:33, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

All The Well Material

Extracted four "theories", moved the rest here - mixture of review, discussion, argument - but all speculation, nothing approaching theory with evidence. If you have evidence add it to the Theory page coz the theories are badly in need of evidence.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:13, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

The Well:Frozen Donkey Wheel

  • Desmond is in the well with the Frozen Donkey Wheel
    • Unlikely as the frozen wheel is located beneath the Orchid at this point in time.
    • Counterpoint: John Locke went down (presumably) the same well to reach the frozen donkey wheel in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.
      • No that well was filled (prior to '54 but after 1860) in modern times. Flocke said there are many wells (probably conforming to the pockets that Jin had mapped out with Dharma), as said above the Orchid sits on the donkey wheel well.
        • Maybe there's more than one frozen donkey wheel.
          • There might be, if we assume every well on the island has its own donkey wheel. If we are to believe what Flocke tells Des: "This is not the only well".
            • The orchid well has been dry for some time. This well is full.

The Well:A new well

  • Desmond is in a different well with an as-yet unseen device inside of it
  • The well is what it seems: it was created a long time ago to access one of the electromagnetic pockets that Jin mapped.
  • Pushing Desmond down the well into the electromagnetic anomaly is Locke's way of killing him without him remaining on the island as a whisper (However, unknown to Locke, Desmond can survive this). Once Desmond hits the pocket of energy he awakes back in FST.
  • The wells are connected via underground tunnels. These same tunnels are the Cerberus Vents. Because of MiB's inability to withstand the EM pylons, perhaps the tunnels were a way of routing the monster around the island, in effect, a way to control and direct the "security system" by utilizing the Electromagnetism found in each well.
  • Being in the well of electromagnetism might allow Desmond the ability to bring knowledge from the OT into the FST. This may explain the *ahem* harsher introduction to Locke in the FST. Dez knew he was a bad man.

The Well: A Reference to Genesis / Thomas Mann's "Joseph" Tetralogy/Murakami's "Windup Bird Chronicle"

  • Desmond being thrown into the well corresponds to the biblical Joseph, son of Jakob, being imprisoned in the well by his half-brothers.
  • The first novel of German author Thomas Mann's Joseph Tetralogy, "Die Geschichten Jaakobs", chronicling the events around Jakob and Joseph as told in Genesis, begins with a literary prelude titled "descent into hell" - "Deep is the well of history", supposed to lead the reader deep into the founding myth's of the history of mankind. Desmond, having demonstrated an awareness of the depths of his world(s), is thus related both to the Joseph character and to the narrator in Thomas Mann's novel.)
  • In Haruki Murakami's novel "The Windup Bird Chronicle" the protagonist spends several days in the bottom of a dry well on the site of "spiritual disturbances." At the bottom of the well, the character can fall through into another alternate reality.

WHOEVER WROTE THIS; YOU ARE WISE AND LEARNED. Mann's three peaks Buddenbrooks (Germany).The Magic Mountain ( The West as seen before WWI- Europe) and the tetralogy of Joseph (the universal) are achievements that stand alone in 20th fiction. --The mortal veil 14:02, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Well: Construction

  • FLocke explains to Desmond that the well is very old, and that old explorers dug to find out what made their compasses flip out. However, he also adds that they did not find what they were looking for. Then what is the deal with the frozen wheel? Are the people who built the well the same people who built the frozen wheel? This is starting to seem unlikely. The people built the well were looking for that wheel/pocket and never found it. The only group to get closest to finding what they were looking for was the Dharma during drilling in the Orchid. Therefore, if even the earliest explorers dug and found nothing, and so did the Dharma basically, then can one assume that the Frozen Wheel was never actually built by any 'man.' It would appear to be more inherent to the island, almost part of its natural habitat..
    • however, Ben and presumably the Others knew about the Frozen Wheel. For how long they've known or how is still a mystery. It is possible they found out through Dharma, only after Dharma had initially discovered it.
  • It seems somewhat odd that the same people that had compass technology were at the same time unable to use shovels but used their hands instead. This smells like another lie from fake Locke.
    • By hand == without machinery, not actually with just their hands. It's like carving a statue by hand, you still use a chisel you just don't use machinery.

The stones in the Well were so poorly constructed because the people digging it could only use hand tools.--Lucky Day 15:58, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Candidates and the Numbers

@Mr Kane: I need to examine the problems that will make the tenure of the new Jacob most difficult: 1: IF there are 6 candidates,and my memory serves correctly Faraday's lighthouse number is 101 and his wheel number is 761, then we manipulate 761 - 101 + 6 = 666. 2: Napoleon was finally confine on an island off the coast of southern Africa. One of geological attractions there is known as Jacob's ladder. 1 + 2 = 3. 3: Ben Napoleon Linus and Faraday may great threats to the new Jacob.

Six candidates: Jack, Kate, Hugo, Sawyer, Sayid, Locke, Sun, Desmond, Lapidus, maybe Zoe, perhaps Walt, the little boy in the woods. Twelve! --The mortal veil 12:59, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • Faraday's Lighthouse number was indeed 101 but it escapes me what you mean by Wheel number (761) - maybe I missed something but I don't know what that is. Even if you are right about that number, why would you manipulate (your word) the numbers in that way and why would you then add a 6. similarly why would you add your own numbering of two items to get a sum of 3. Makes no sense to me at all. Just put any numbers together to obtain an outcome and then make that outcome apply to the original question you ask! numerology so weak it does not deserve consideration. Then mortal veil does a similar thing - talks of 6 candidates adds another six, (why not 2, or 7, or 10) and then exclaims "12"! I don't get it.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   15:33, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Ilana Goes Boom - Discussion

As Ben eloquently points out, Ilana - hand-picked by Jacob himself, to come and serve a purpose, dies horribly. Why and possibly, who/what is responsible?

Jacob?

  • It would seem unlikely that Jacob was responsible in killing Ilana, but perhaps he is guilty of not intervening in saving her life.
    • Jacob is dead. He's not responsible for killing her or for choosing not to save her. He couldn't do either. Perhaps if he were still alive, she wouldn't have died a horrible death.
  • After-all, Ilana describes her relationship with Jacob as father and daughter
    • Considering Jacob's ability to see the future, he was probably aware that Ilana would get killed on the island. When Jacob approached heavily injured Ilana (injuries from a previous suicide mission on behalf of Jacob?) it didn't seem he was merely asking her for a field trip but possibly for the ultimate sacrifice. Thus, Ilana knew that she wouldn't make it off the island alive, but finally she didn't have to suffer.
  • However, he did tell Ilana to look to Richard for the next move, which leads him to reach the conclusion that they need to procure dynamite, which inevitably leads to Ilana man-handling the explosives and paying the price.
    • But, what if the point was for Ilana to blow up so Hurley would destroy the rest of the dynamite? What if Jacob knew Richard would want to destroy the plane, so he told Ilana to ask Richard what to do, which would lead Ilana to get the dynamite, explode, and inspire Hurley's actions?
    • This bothers me for 2 reasons:
      • A: Seems incredibly twisted, even for Jacob's taste.
      • B: If you re-watch the episode, it's Michael's appearance that inspires Hurley and sets him on his path

Hurley

This theory is predicated on the "Hurley has already replaced Jacob" theory. Perhaps it isn't the Island which has been manipulating events. Perhaps it was Jacob. (We can clearly see some of MiB's interactions with the Losties since Day 1. Perhaps Jacob has been involved as well.) Since Hurley has taken over for Jacob, he is now able to will some events to happen. When Ilana presents the dynamite, he unconsciously wills her to explode to warn the rest away from the dynamite.

  • This theory asks too many far out questions. Hurley cannot have replaced Jacob because Hurley is unsure of himself. Jacob is never unsure of himself. Secondly, there is no purpose for the other candidates then. Jacob was not afraid of MiB, but Hurley seems to be afraid even when they go to meet MiB. Hurley must be willing bad things on Richard since he does not listen to him? Hurley, right now, is an inferior replacement for Jacob which does not make sense since what is at stake on the island requires a resolute leader. I don't think Jacob will blow up Ilana like that since he presents himself as the opposite of malevolence or evil(MiB). Unless it has all been a lie, and Jacob and his replacement are actually the bad ones.
    • Original poster here. To flesh this out a bit, I am suggesting that Hurley has taken on the role of Jacob, but that no one, not even Hurley is aware of it yet. There is much broader discussion about this theory elsewhere. For the purposes of this discussion, what I am suggesting is that out of ignorance and a lack of control of his new powers, not from a sense of malevolence, Hurley wishes that something would happen to back up his point. As a result, something does happen: Ilana blows up. We've seen the same sort of thing with Walt and the bird. Walt didn't want to kill the bird, it smashed into a window as he was, apparently, summoning it. Same basic idea: Ilana's death was an accident, the origin of which was a wish from Hurley. Is that clearer? As for Hurley's lack of confidence, etc., he is growing into his new role. He needn't have mastered it, yet.Mcwebe0 03:47, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'll say he hasn't mastered it yet. Basically you are saying he wished a loved helper dead - and got it! Bad start for benevolence. Then, as Miles pointed out so succinctly - he took the word of a ghost (who previously had been his sworn enemy) and went with that ghosts suggestion without so much as a "hang on, MiB is a monster, Jacob said we need protection from this monster, and sent a team to give us that protection", then he made a bare faced lie to manipulate everyone into taking this hair-brain mission, oh I forgot he blew up all the dynamite without so much as a say so, then he bowls into the enemies camp without any plan at all and offers a truce to the murderer of dreams where he has no power at all, he then accepts a puny knife from the monster who can turn into smoke and devour people as if that were sufficient. Not mastered it yet! No. That would be right.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   04:07, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

FLocke/MiB?

maybe after llana got killed she woke up in a Russian hospital with jacob standing over her.

  • FLocke's main victims have come directly through brute force via the smoke monster.
  • FLocke has not been seen to be able to exert the power to jam revolvers or prevent someone from dying
    • He does loosen the rope binding Ben's arms in the Dr. Linus episode.
    • However, right before the Kahana explodes, Christian Shepard appears before Michael and tells him he can go now. As we know, there is some existing relationship/connection between C. Shepard and MiB.
      • Then it's doubtful that MiB and Christian are one and the same, because if they were, then MiB could have escaped off the island through the Kahana.
        • But they could be the same person, because he couldn't have escaped on the Kahana because, at that time, Jacob was still alive.
          • They can't be the same person, because Christian Shepard was at the barracks with Sun and Frank at the same time MiB was with Ben and Ilana at the Hydra infirmary.
            • He has to leave with every candidate, so he couldn't just go in the Kahana.
          • MIB cannot suddenly appear, he has to travel to where ever the Avatar he uses shows up (think Eko and his brother). But MIB cannot travel across water (he cannot get to Hydra Island without a boat). Hence MIB could not have gotten to the Kahana unless he was on the Helicopter. MIB was not on the Helicopter.

Richard

  • As Richard himself points out, Jacob does not usually give specific instructions. Richard, not Jacob, is responsible for the dynamite idea, even if Jacob did instruct Ilana to pay heed to Richard. It was unnecessary for Richard to have Ilana fool around with unstable dynamite to begin with. A plane's delicate instrumentation can easily be destroyed by half a dozen determined people and even primitive tools/clubs.
    • Furthermore, wouldn't a logical group of individuals stop and say, "Hey, let's get Richard, the man who can't die, to handle all dynamite-carrying related business"? Don't put it in the hands of one the people we know is expendable (following candidate idea). But it could be just poor storytelling.
    • This implies that Richard Alpert and those with him are not aware of the presence of Charles Widmore and his Submarine on the island. Blowing up the plane leaves the submarine. Sawyer told Kate it was their ticket off the island. Until whoever chooses to lead, knows the full picture of what is going on with all the groups on the island, their actions will always be misguided or at best, a minor victory. Hurley in his confusion is likely making more headway by going to meet MiB, now they can make better decisions if Sawyer or Sayid fills them in on Widmore's presence on the Island. MiB will try to turn them against Charles Widmore in order to effect his escape and possibly rescue Jin if he is the candidate 'Kwon'. I suppose Hurley and Jack should be finding out who was coming to the island via the lighthouse incident and what means of transportation they are using, because Jacob told them about it.
    • It is Richard's fault. Richard is not following MiB right now because Hugo told him what Richard's wife thought of him so he didn't take MiB on his offer. Hugo told Richard that blowing up the plane was a bad idea, but Richard insisted on it. Richard leads by making mistakes. If you want to live and you are not a candidate, let Richard do all the dirty work or you die. Ilana was too eager to help him. MiB sparred Richard's life the first time they met because it knew Richard deep down is scared and confused, easily swayed and not anchored. That is why he gave him that offer that is as immortal as himself.

The Island (Third Party Idea)

  • As Ben states clearly, "The Island was done with her." Perhaps neither Jacob nor MiB have the power to keep someone alive or allow them to die in some weird Final Destination type death. Perhaps it is exactly as Ben puts it, The Island, as an entity, has the power to eliminate players/candidates/characters once they fulfill some destined role.
    • This leads into the idea that Jacob and MiB are also players within the game and not the end-all be-all.
  • The island has been shown to be able to stop death (as seen in Black Rock scene with Jack and Richard or many suicide attempts of Michael and Jack off the island). It can easily be able to cause death as well.
    • But were those two situations the island stopping their deaths, or Jacob stopping their deaths? We know Jacob touched Jack, and made Richard immortal.
      • This is exactly a point that will have to be resolved before the end of the show, who sits on the top of the pyramid? As we have witnessed throughout the seasons, the show has baited the audience slowly on who exactly reigns over the island. At one point it was assumed to be Mr. Friendly, then Ben, some even then led to believe it was Richard, and then Jacob. Perhaps, one final surprise will reveal that even Jacob answers to somebody
        • Since Jacob cannot leave the island(he has to be there to keep an eye on things), and he needs a replacement, and the island is like a cork on a wine jar preventing MiB from escaping, some entity or force of nature must have placed them both there. Whatever made the rules is the top dog because Jacob and MiB are bound by those rules. Cause if you throw the cork(island) away, MiB is free to roam the world. The nature of their rules is what decides who lives or dies. The island and all those on it are bound by the rules. The question is really what exactly are the rules, the nature of the rules, the source of the rules and what can nullify the rules. Richard is immortal, bestowed upon him by Jacob who was acting within the rules(he couldn't bring Richard's wife back to life, but immortality is within his abilities). Should Richard act outside of the rules or likely go off the island he may/will become mortal and die.
          • We have seen Jacob off the island on several occasions. With young Kate; young James; Jack; at the wedding of Sun/Jin; Hurley in the cab. Unless you're suggesting that Jacob can only project himself off the island, and never really, permanently leave?
          • Yes, the entity that is Jacob cannot permanently leave the island. Jacob has responsibilities towards the island and in keeping the balance. He may project himself elsewhere as you say, but a ‘Jacob’ has to be there. That is why his replacement will have to assume Jacob’s responsibilities. Seeing as he even needs a replacement shows that the position or role of Jacob cannot be left unattended.
  • Ilana had done exactly what Jacob asked her to do, protect the candidates and then let Richard do the leading after that. She had fulfilled her purpose. The island did not need her services anymore. Hugo did warn her about handling the dynamites. She did not listen to Hugo though Michael had told Hugo everyone was listening to him now. The book that was left in Ilana's bag speaks of freewill against determinism. Ilana was likely operating by her own free will at that point but did not know it. She made an unwise choice mishandling the dynamite sticks.This means that someone else may have the task of protecting the candidates(maybe Richard), or the candidates no longer need protection because things have changed. That is to say, the presence of Desmond has somehow triggered the endgame, he is the constant after all. Not a pleasant way to die, but her death seemed similar to the burn injuries she sustained when Jacob visited her a the hospital. She did not die then because she had work to do on the island for Jacob.
    • Agree. Ilana seemed to have gone the way of Michael on the freighter (after interrupted suicide attempts)--'you can go now' and kaboom. Your purpose is served, goodbye.

Don't Play with Fireworks

  • Perhaps it's as simple as dynamite is highly unstable and very combustible, end of story.
    • Richard took a stick and lit it on fire, it seems a great force is at will.
    • She trains for this and doesn't bother to put a bunch of sand in the bag with the highly unstable dynamite? Odd.
      • Richard can´t die! Everyone else should have been and was careful with TNT from the Black Rock in all of its various appearances, and some died anyway. Is she really so dumb as to just throw the bag down, or was it on purpose?
  • As stated above, half a dozen people or so don't need dynamite to render a plane unable to fly, a pair of wire cutters and a crowbar should do just fine. Michael told Hurley he was there to "stop them from blowing up the plane," not "stop them from keeping MIB on the island." Michael knew, perhaps from Jacob, that they needed to stop MIB from leaving, but not to use the dynamite to do so because of exactly what happened, the dynamite is unstable, unsafe, and can cause more harm than good considering there are other ways to keep the plane grounded.
    • One guy, who by the way can't die, with a knife and the willingness to pop a couple tires could solo disable the plane. It seems certain even MiB can't kill Richard. Why is Richard so intent on everybody doing this?
      • Richard hasn't been thinking clearly since Jacob was killed. His temperament has shifted. For the decades preceding the Losties' arrival (somewhere between 50-150 years), Richard's role as "immortal consigliere" allowed him to be the most cool and rational person on the island. Jacob's death has caused Richard to have a major existential crisis. His temperament now is anything but rational. Jacob told Ilana to follow Richard, the guy who always knew "what to do". Ironically, because of Jacob's death, Richard is now panicked and fairly helpless.
  • Alternatively, it's possible that Ilana killed herself intentionally. It wouldn't be surprising given her close relationship with Jacob, if he asked her to. She may have sacrificed herself knowing it would result in Hurley/Richard taking sides.

Course Correction

  • Her injuries when Jacob visited her in the hospital before probably should have killed her; however, the Island preserved her life. Once the Island was done with her, course correction set in and she is killed.

Reward

  • It could be Jacob's way of saying thank you and letting the person go (kinda twisted, but). If the Island and Jacob were done with her, they spared her the long process of dying and granted a painless (i never been blown up by the dynamite but I don't think Ilana felt anything). Hence she was thrown into the FST and chilling there getting all the goodies and perks of the universe where wishes are granted.
    • This assumes that Jacob is responsible for the FST and the subjective idea that the FST is 'good.' However, it seems likely that the FST is the 'wrong one' and will soon collapse as Desmond pushes on with his mission

Perhaps Ilana's death was meant to be a pretty strong clue that the MIB SUCCEEDS in getting off the island. After all, Ilana was the last of the team sent to stop him, and was Jacob's appointed leader. Indeed, everything seems to be falling into place (and down a well) for the MIB. Maybe the point of watching Ilana blow up was to hint to the audience that the Locke of the alternate universe is not who he says he is.

She served no purpose any way

  • She was killed off because writers finally realized the obvious - neither she nor her people served any important or interesting purpose. Thank god they didn't waste a whole episode just to get rid of them like they did with Nikki and Paulo.
    • Ilana served three significant purposes: 1) getting Sayid on the Ajira flight; 2) getting her team to take the real Locke's body to the statue; 3) keeping Ben on her side and away from MIB. Also, her team burned Jacob's cabin; and after her team's demise, she led the group to the beach camp. Now, the remnants of her bag are in Hurley's hand (including the bag of Jacob's ashes). These may be important functions as well. Time will tell.
      • All those purposes could have been served without bringing in whole bunch of new characters whose background and motivations will not be explained because there are only a few episodes left.
    • This is extremely unlikely. The show's producers don't let things with 'no purpose' onto the show. The writers didn't kill her off in such a dramatic way, changing the entire tone of the episode and course of the plot, because they thought she was useless; if she was, she would never have been written in, and if they decided to get rid of her after the fact, it would have been by not having her appear any more, with a line of dialogue or two to the effect that she had gone elsewhere, permanently. The writers and producers of Lost aren't doing their job at random, throwing in characters to see if they develop a purpose on their own. This isn't some student film, thrown together by committee and without foresight in the course of a few afternoons. The producers had a purpose for introducing Ilana, having her effect the storyline as she did, and killing her off in an explosive conclusion to her story arc. Trust me on this.

(Moved by me! No theory (oh, maybe buried in the dross), just interesting discussion, argument etc, ah well    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:20, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

  • Two cents - I was always half positive that she was taking over the part that was initially imagined for Ana Lucia. They were nearly the same character. Had she not gotten herself kicked off the show, we may never would have had an Ilana. NandR

Motives of the Spirits/Ghosts

  • Given that spirits appear and whispers are heard when something significant's going to happen, it would appear that they have the best perspective of what is happening on the island. Every now and again, they seem to have knowledge of future events (See Michael's motives below)
  • They may be trying to earn their way out of purgatory by helping out the living.
  • The spirits do not necessarily have good intentions, and they may not be trying to help out the living. Christian, the spirit we have seen the most, seems to have worked with the Man in Black and perhaps helped turn Claire crazy and to the MiB's side. From what we've seen of Christian, it seems likely that he has more evil intentions than good.
    • It is possible that all the spirits are evil and may be working with the Man in Black, including Michael.
    • Whether they are good or evil, Christian and Michael's spirits likely have the same motive for the advice they give to the Losties.
      • Not to start up the Christian/MiB debate again, but it is still very possible that what we have been seeing as Christian has really just been MiB. Hurley is the only person that actually sees dead people, so I don't think we can equate Christian's motives with Michael's because they very well might be completely different in nature (Michael is actually just dead Michael but Christian may be MiB).
        • The problem with that is Claire considers both the Man in Black and Christian as her friends, and since she was able to tell the difference between John Locke and the Man in Black in John Locke's form, it seems likely that she would be able to the difference between Christian and the Man in Black in Christian's form.
  • The fact that Christian has appeared off the Island (Jack saw him in the hospital), proves that Christian is not the MIB. Christian may be a spirit, but the fact that he does not only appear to Hurly indicates that he is some other type of spirit. He is also seen in a webisode petting Walts dog just after it appeared to Jack.

Michael

  • Michael said he is trapped on the island. Maybe he can escape or be freed if the MiB leaves the island, and that is why he tells Hugo not to blow up the plane.
    • Perhaps he is now in the same situation as MiB, and therefore desires the same endgame. After all, they are apparently both stuck on the island.
  • Michael is lying. His definition of the whispers doesn't make sense. First, there is Walt, who appeared after the sounds of whispers when he was still alive; also, there is Mr. Eko's brother Yemi, who was dead, but was a priest and free of sin, and therefore shouldn't be trapped. Michael is either lying, or that's not Michael.
    • Yemi was not free of sin - he was in on a heroin deal! Also, just because someone is a priest, does NOT make them free of sin. Popular misconception - they just recognize their sins and try to atone for them more than the average person.
    • It's not Michael's explanation of the whispers. It's the "show's" explanation.
    • His definition of the whispers does make sense. Walt was special; we don't know exactly why, but the kid could kill birds with his mind. They asked if he had ever "been somewhere he wasn't supposed to be." Walt could probably either go between dimensions like Desmond or project more than one copy of himself. Yemi died before the plane crashed, and MIB was using Yemi's body to appear to Eko. Hurley can see dead people for crying out loud, Michael is dead. People have been speculating since thpers are tied in with people who are stuck on the island. MIB is indeed stuck on the island and therefore would be accompanied by the whispers. This would explain the reason why Walt and Yemi were accompanied by the whispers.
    • Yemi and Co. were accompanied by whispers not because of their source, (manifestations of the MiB) but simply the event or situation that is occurring. For example, the 'whispering ghosts' observe, converse and even perhaps try to warn characters of looming or impending danger, or some other significant happening. Having passed on, they probably do know more about the nature of the island then when they were alive. Therefore, when they witness the MiB manifesting and projecting to the characters, the whispers become direly concerned because they know the true reality of what/who the MiB is and are fearful for what the MiB might do to our Lost cast.
  • The Whispers are of all the souls that the Black Smoke has claimed on the island. I don't believe Hurley was talking to Michael, that was another manifestation of the MIB. I don't think Hurley understands the difference yet, but I beleive the whispers are the key to determining if it is the Black Smoke vs dead people visiting.
    • MIB can no longer take the form of other people, he is stuck as Locke.
    • This idea has some validation but perhaps its the other way around. Dead people accompanied by whispers, manifestations by MiB accompanied by nothispecially given "Everybody Loves Hugo."
    • But Ilana says MiB cannot take any other form now once he has chosen to appear as the physical form of Locke. Doesn't that mean that he cannot appear as other people now but only change to his smoke form.
      • This is true. However, it does not answer to who's end these Whispers/Ghosts are working for. It does seem genuine that Michael is working to do good by Hugo and Co. While Christian, well, you get the picture.
        • There's no reason to assume that Michael is doing good. His advice contradicted Jacob's advice to follow Richard, and Jacob has proven to be a much better person than Michael. Michael could be leading Hurley right into a trap by having him talk to the Man in Black. Michael killed two innocent people to benefit himself, so if Michael benefits from the Man in Black getting off the island, I don't think he'e is someone known to Hurley, but not who Hurley would have chosen to see. Hurley was, moments before, asking Libby to visit.
    • When reminded that he killed Libby and Ana-Lucia, and is still untrustworthy, Michael claims "That doesn't matter now." and focuses Hurley on the mission to blow up the plane. This technique of distraction is employed by MiB in 'Ab Aeterno' as well as 'Christian' keeping Locke's attention away from Claire in the cabin. The fact that Michael murdered Libby very much matters to Hurley, and is reflected in their parting. It's possible Hurley realized it was a mistake trusting Michael, but carried on since the plan was peaceful. If Hurley really felt reconciled towards Michael he might have volunteered that Walt asked about him.

(Moved here to join the rest of the discussion, needless to say I couldn't find any "Theories" or and "Evidence".    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:28, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

The Plane / The Sub - discuss

  • Choosing to not destroy the plane could result in these situations:
    1. MiB will kidnap/force the remaining candidates to get on the Ajira flight, ending everything.
    2. Hurley will sabotage the plane at the last minute.
    3. One or more of the non-candidates will be killed.
    4. Desmond will somehow prevent the plane from taking off.
    5. Richard's group will prevent the plane from taking off.
  • The plane is irrelevant. We know there's a submarine, even if Richard's group doesn't yet, so blowing up the plane doesn't affect MIB's ability to leave the Island. That plane could never take off anyway: pointed the wrong way, probably with insufficient space and an inappropriate surface on which to gain liftoff, and with old fuel.
  • Planes can't go in reverse. They need vehicles to push them back from the gate. Few people know this - but this means there is no way they can leave in the plane as even with everything working and fuel, they can't turn around to face the runway.
  • Zoe suggests the plane could be repaired, Sawyer doesn't disagree, other than that there is little objective information. Notice nevertheless that both escape vehicles - sub and plane - are now surounded by sonar fence pylons, an obstacle fake Locke seems to be determined to overcome by carving and developing olympic aspirations...
    • Also, it seems likely enough that Desmond, at the bottom of the well, is poised to turn the donkey wheel (or interact with some part of the island's magic machinery), activating an electromagnetic event similar to the one he caused by not pushing the button in the hatch. It would be fitting for Desmond, having inadvertently crashed 815, to now actively choose to crash the Ajira plane as it leaves the island with MiB on board through a similar method.
      • Yeah, except for the point that Desmond has in fact not "inadvertently" crashed 815, cause these dudes on the plane were destined (!) to go there...
    • MIB seems to be stopped by water and sonic vibrations. Traveling on the sub, while it may not kill MIB, would be pure hell for him. Consider the sSonar beacon the submarine needs to navigate not to mention the pressure on the sub when dived may affect MIB differently then everyone else.--Zaggs 17:26, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

(Moved, speculation    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

  • The sub is the perfect tramp for MiB. Anyone how wants to kill him, would force him to escape in the sub. I think MiB will try to escape in the sub, with the six losties knowing about their FST lives. (and those lives knowing about OT lives). Once the sub gets down the water, they open the doors and they all die drowned. MiB can't escape from that tramp. He will surely die.--Stabilini 04:35, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Jack and MiB Face to Face

(Moved here - left some barebones theory explanations. Much of this is irrelevant to the "theory", is discussion yada yada    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:21, April 16, 2010 (UTC)) When Jack and Flocke came face to face...

  • MiB had a look of fear. MIB knows Jack is the true candidate.
    • MiB looked at Jack as if he was his new target. Jack has a great history with Locke. Originally they were butting heads over issues of leadership and faith vs fact. But eventually Locke converted Jack to the believer in "The Island" (and it's "plan"). MiB or FLOCKE intend to use their history to manipulate Jack for his benifit in an upcoming episode.
    • MiB has Locke's memories. He's remembering everything that transpired between Jack and Locke.
    • MiB was not afraid, only Jack was.
      • Jack's not afraid of anything.
  • Jack had a look of fear. Something happened to Jack. Something important.
    • But Jack knows it's not really Locke.
    • Jack and Locke have a huge history, and it's the first time he has seen him since before the Ajira flight. It feels like we have known about Flocke forever, but only a few days have gone by on the island this entire season. Jack has only known that "Locke" was still "alive" for a few days. It must be pretty hard to wrap your head around the idea that someone has come back to life. Even though Jack knows it isn't Locke, it's Locke's body. He's having trouble telling his brain that it isn't actually Locke. Anyone would be disturbed if they saw someone that had died walking around again.
      • Also, keep in mid how affected Jack was by the news of Locke's death. Jack was the only one at his funeral. Jack had to put his own father's shoes on Locke's corpse. Jack is just recovering from a lengthy mental breakdown, and seeing Locke alive and well isn't helping him with his daddy issues.
        • And in the FST Jack is likely going to meet Locke now since he was hit by Desmond and will be sent to the hospital. This could trigger Jack's own recollection of the island memories. There is a major connection between Jack and Locke/Flocke.
          • People on the island are completely unaware of FST. Whatever happens in that timeline, does not appear to affect anyone in OT, with the exception of Desmond whose consciousness was always able to travel.
  • The reason Flocke only greeted Jack, is because Jack is the only one who hasn't met him yet. The sight of Locke has just shocked Jack.
    • Hurley hadn't met MiB in a human form until this episode.
      • Hurley is also the first of the Candidates to NOT let MiB speak first.
        • Also note that Flocke handed Hurley his knife. As we know, Jacob was killed with his own knife, and it seems highly likely that somebody (Hurley?) will be able to kill Flocke with his own knife.
          • Note that Sayid tried to kill MiB with his own knife as well, and failed. This is likely for two reasons:
            • Sayid let MiB talk first.
            • The knife that Sayid tried to use was not actually the MiB's, or it is not effective now that MiB has changed forms.
  • It is possible that fake Locke is Christian, Jack's father - after all Jack did see him several times on the island, and Locke saw him too before turning the wheel - yes it could merely have been only MiB, but it could be he is really Christian.
    • MiB predates Christian S. by god knows how many hundreds of years. Also, Christians' absence seems a bit peculiar, no doubt he will come to play again soon for a pivotal role. He may attempt to manipulate Jack once and for all to side with FLocke. This may very well be Jack's biggest challenge, not necessarily the old rhetoric of Jack Vs. Locke, but actually Jack Vs. His Father, Christian.
    • Jack knows Hurley can see dead people, etc. So perhaps, the reason Jack had a shocked look on his face, is because he thought that Hurley was going to talk to the "Ghost" of Locke, and not expecting to see "Locke" alive.
      • It seems that all losties except for Desmond came to understanding that Lock is not a ghost, but an entity which took his form.
  • Jack and MIB react strongly upon seeing each other because Jack is no longer Jack, he is Jacob now. This is why he has stopped leading people. This episode gave an important clue. Richard says that Jacob can't tell people what to do. This is why Jack(Jacob) is know longer the "man in charge". This new "Jack" corresponds in time to Jacob dying perfectly.

Desmond/Locke - Discussion

(Moved. Entirely discussion. Please only post final theories with supporting evidence on the Theory page, then come here to discuss it, argue, refute, offer new ideas etc    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:28, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

  • It appears that when FLocke initially embarks on his excursion with Desmond, that he's doing what he's done time and time before. Journeying through the jungle, talking about good and evil, maybe he'll treat you to some scrumptious boar, or show you a cave on the side of a cliff, or even an ancient well. Regardless of the method, Flocke's goal is always to try to lure and manipulate people in believing (in) him. However, at the well, once the theatrics were done, Flocke appeared significantly distressed by Demsond's light-hearted responses and his overall invulnerability in being afraid at that moment. Flocke's failure in swaying Desmond's heart infuriated him. This, ironically, made Flocke fearful of what Desmond may be capable of. After all, if Flocke merely had the sole intention of killing Desmond, he could have done it much earlier
    • Desmond could be a candidate now, meaning MiB cannot kill him.
      • The candidates do not change.
      • For all we know Desmond was always a candidate. We were told there are 6 candidates. We know of Jack, Hurley, Sawyer, Sayid, and Kwon. If Kwon is only referring to one of the spouses then a 6th spot is still open for Desmond. Maybe we just never saw his name
    • This is very similar to the situation with Eko. Both he and Desmond rebuked the MiB's advances in their own ways, and were subsequently attacked and left for dead.
  • Desmond knows that Locke is the MiB. He simply told him he believed he was Locke to trick him.
  • "You're John Locke" should be interpreted as "You're 'John Locke'" -- a deliberate non-answer and both of them know it.
  • Desmond seemed to know that his fate was to end up in the well. He willingly went with Sayid, and again went willingly with Locke and 'wasn't even afraid.'
    • Desmond knows what will happen, so he knows that whatever is happening is supposed to happen. Thus he just goes along with it all because somehow he knows where it will all lead to.
  • Once Desmond asks "What is the point of being afraid?", FLocke realizes he may be someone that proves Jacob's point that not everyone is inherently corrupt.
  • Flocke is afraid of Desmond. Those that are not afraid of Flocke are a threat to him. He requires the control, with Desmond there is none. Desmond is able to withstand Electromagnetic Flashes, so far. Flock may be testing him to see if he can survive another one.
  • Desmond knew Flocke would push him down the well, and allowed it to happen because he wanted to be exposed to the electromagnetic energy, which will allow him to reconnect with the FST, just as when Widmore exposed him to it in the shack.
    • It's not possible that Desmond knew that FLocke would do that. If he really did gain any information from his time in the wooden shack, it would be about the Side-Timeline, not back and forth in the OT as we have seen Desmond do before. It appeared that Desmond did not know Flocke was going to do that because frankly, I don't even think FLocke knew he was going to do that! As said and implied by others, throwing Desmond down the well was a more improvised maneuver rather than calculated.
      • Sorry for being unclear. I didn't mean Desmond "knew" Flocke would push him down the well in the sense of having a prophetic vision; I meant "knew" inasmuch as anyone might ordinarily "know" what someone else would do in a given situation. Perhaps "expected" would have been a better word. In any case, it explains why Desmond wasn't afraid of Locke.
      • In addition, if the people who built the well did not find anything down there, what do you expect Desmond to find? If this well turns out to be a well with a frozen chamber/wheel, then FLocke may have made a mistake by putting Desmond in the same vicinity as that power. However, there may be nothing at all down there, a dead end.
  • It can easily be argued that of all the people we've met on the Island Desmond is the most inherently good. Almost everything he has done has either been for someone else (mostly Penny) of the greater good (pushing the button for all those years without asking). Desmond will be the individual who proves Jacob right.
    • This is why fLocke pushed Desmond down the well - because here was the proof that Jacob needed. With him, MiB loses.
    • To prematurely counter act the "Hurley's a good guy" argument: Hurley's greed (one of the seven deadly sins) led him to "steal" the numbers to win the lottery, and this gluttony (another one of those deadly sins) caused him to lie about hoarding away supplies when they first landed on the Island.
  • Locke after being hit by Desmon, while he is in the floor, looks like he just came back from somewhere, you can see it when he changes his face. I would say that Locke just got a vision from the Island. At the same time Desmon, just before hitting him makes a weird smile. Desmon really tries to kill him because he knows who he is in the FST. If the reason was to produce in him a near-death experience, hitting a man in a wheelchair with a car, top speed, seems too brutal.
  • For someone who had been told (Eloise Hawking) that he'd never accomplish anything great in his life (reminds me of the reverse pyschology applied by the "oracle" to Neo in the MATRIX), Desmond has come quite a way. He now has the air of someone who has truly found his "purpose" and the smile of the older mysterious boy seems to be quite a reassurance. Fake Locke was previously warned by mysterious boy that he couldn't kill Sawyer (because he was a "candidate" or else?) because it was against the rules. Fake Locke's attempt to kill Desmond (I can't imagine we've seen the last of him) may have been a serious breach of the rules with consequences yet to come.
    • Actually, Desmond was told he would accomplish something great in his life: pushing the button in the hatch. It's interesting that the MIB knows this about Desmond. Perhaps whatever Desmond's button pushing was accomplishing was keeping the MIB/Smokey somewhat at bay. Perhaps Desmond's been fighting the MIB for years in this manner and never realized it.
  • Flocke threw Desmond down the well specifically because he understood that it would not kill him - due to Desmond's immunity to things electro-magnetic - but deliberately to get Desmond out of the way and unable to influence anyone else. To Flocke - Desmond is an unwanted complication - you might call him a variable - and Flocke does not need complications. Flocke cannot kill Desmond as he can only kill those judged and found wantiing (e.g. Eko) or those who have offered him violence (Ilana's team and the others at the temple who had opposed him in the past). Hence the solution with Desmond is to put him into the well (an electro-magnietic pool linked to the Island's power) so Desmond is incappacitated, but not killed. I would argue that this placement of desmond in the well is playing into Desmond's hands as proximity to the power of the Island will make his ability to flash between OT and FST stronger and it will bring about Flocke's ultimate defeat.

The Number 42 and Desmond

(moved here because it is discussion!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:36, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

  • So Desmond is number 42. I know it's a pop culture reference but theyre not rare in Lost, but in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy the answer to the meaning of life is 42. So theyre saying Desmond knows the meaning of life.
    • I don't really know where you got this but number 42 is Kwon, so unless you have some way to relate Desmond to the name Kwon i think 42 has to represent either Jin or Sun
      • He got number 42 from the restaurant scene in "Everybody Loves Hugo" when Desmond's order number of '42' was called out.
  • No offense, but this theory has no substance and likely should be deleted. The ticket number 42 is just a reference to the numbers that have been referenced ever since the first season. The ticket number does not make Desmond any more significant than he already was. Anna Lucia had seat number 42 on Flight 815, and she was killed off in the second season. Most characters have had some encounter with the number 42 since that is one of the numbers the show always returns to. As someone else mentioned, the significant number 42 is the number on the lighthouse which represents one of the Kwons as a candidate.
  • Strangely enough the producers did choose 42 as reference to Hitchhikers Guide, as part of a random set of numbers chosen from both the pilot and references such as these. While their origins have not much meaning to the show they have indeed been appearing everywhere in Lost episodes...except in the alternate timeline. What is interesting is that places where the numbers used to be, such as the seat numbers and Hurley's lottery win (promotional photo)have actually changed numbers. This is the first clear reference to the numbers right when Desmond is leading Hurley to remembering the original timeline. This may actually be a sign that the original timeline is starting to affect the alternate.
  • Maybe 42 is all there's left from the Numbers, which number in the Hitchhiker's Guide was the answer for the question about life, universe and all. That might mean it's an ironic reference to the fact that all characters in FST seem to have this issue about the meaning of life answered - they get what they wanted and they seem to be happy.

Desmond is the OT timeline New Jacob

(Interesting discussion moved here coz its speculation not a theory supported by evidence    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:43, April 16, 2010 (UTC))

  • It’s no coincidence that Des is named for a fellow Scot, philosopher David Hume, who argued that free will and determinism are compatible, i.e. that the truth of one does not rule out the truth of the other. Ever since we first met Desmond, he has personified the struggle between determinism and free will. Yet lately Desmond is just beginning to bridge the gap between the two.
  • He’s been making the rounds to all the Oceanic passengers, trying to help them pierce through the illusion of the FST. He’s not unlike Jacob, who helped steer his candidates on course. Free will, interestingly enough, is the basis for the contest between the MiB and Jacob: that someone can prove himself incorruptible, and yet make the right choices on their own, is what Jacob has been waiting for.
  • Des is not a Candidate. Des, is, however, a variable, a wild card, someone who, in Faraday’s words, is “uniquely and miraculously special” and someone to whom the normal rules seemingly do not apply. It is possible that Des will do what Jacob has been waiting for: a selfless act of personal sacrifice in the service of the greater good. He’ll choose to remain on the island as the new Jacob, not because he was chosen to do so but because he chooses to do so. The one place that he’s least wanted to be, even though it means he’ll never see Penny or his son Charlie again, because doing so will save the world. This is the philosopher Hume’s idea of self will — Liberty — coexisting with determined fate — Necessity. This could also be the sacrifice Widmore told Des he’ll have to make.
    • This is a very insightful theory. But since Ilana said the candidates are to replace Jacob, I believe if Desmond is not a candidate, by being the constant, he is going to help bring the candidates or whoever is going to replace Jacob to a similar realization. One of selfless personal sacrifice, with no seeming personal gain as you describe. Without Desmond the equation will never be balanced, though other variables or candidates may change, the constant has to be there.

Reflections

I know I brought this up in the discussion, but I feel that it holds some kind of significance. I theorize that Hurley not seeing his reflection at any point in the episode (unless you want to count his face on posters?¿) was intentional. I feel it is something we were supposed to pickup on. Maybe even though that Hurley didn't have his "memories", that he possibly transcends both realities? I'm not sure what it could possibly mean, but considering every previous character aside from Jin has seen their reflection. Maybe it means they really aren't as important as we're lead to believe? Anyone have any guesses as to what this could mean? Leachpunk 15:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

For a Hurley centric episode there have been more theories about mysterious Kids Jack and FLocke, plus Desmond. How about this for starters. Season 6 is following season 1. In season 1 'Everybody hates Hugo' Hurley seems to see himself through others actions. He believes everyone hates him cause he won the lottery etc. He believes he is cursed and cannot create his own luck. Infact, some people have described his character as the voice of the audience through out the Seasons. Does it not make sense that in a way, if everybody loves Hugo in FST that is how he will perceive or see his reflection. That cool, kind loveable guy in the Poster that everyone else sees too. To be precise, he sees his reflection as the man in the Poster. Speaking of Hurley, did he win the lottery with the same numbers, or the numbers in reverse or something. If in the OT the numbers were a Pandora's box(As described by Leonard in Santa Rosa), does his winning this time close the Pandora's box...ie instead of bringing the island/underworld into their lives he takes it out. Or even the opposite of the Pandora's box, with hope being at the top of the Box and untold misery and strife rather at the very bottom. Actually, Chang says at the start of the episode, that in a world of conflict and something, at least everyone loves Hugo; that is a significant statement about the FST and Hurley.VeryBadRobot 23:32, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


Fake Locke Cannot Leave the Island: Discussion

Removed from theories. It is bogus. It is a rehash of what we have actually been told by recent episodes. It is mainly info explained by Jacob. It is not relevant to this episode. If by some imagining it were to be regarded as a theory - it has no evidence, simply a review and some unsupported speculation. If it were a theory it would be "More appropriate for another article" (namely MiB). The author needs to read what a theory for the purposes of Lostpedia is! I have placed it here for what its worth    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:11, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

  • Fake Locke will never be allowed to leave the island. With Michael's appearance we learned that the 'Voices' are those trapped on the Island for wrongdoing.
  • Flocke's "evil" is why he is imprisoned on the Island - it is his prison.
  • MIB won't be able to leave the island while Jacob or a Jacob replacement exists, so he needs to get everyone killed - not by his own hands off course - to proceed with his plan.
    • And of course, getting everyone onto the Ajira plan just as Richard blows it up would achieve this.
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