"Is" is not capitalized. --Pyramidhead 08:13, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Does it matter? --WILL-I-AM 10:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes --  >: BLEF    10:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Why? --WILL-I-AM 10:46, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Because this title is different from the episode's real title. [1] --Pyramidhead 11:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks whoever moved the page. The ep template still needs to be corrected, though. --Pyramidhead 12:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
    • And this page needs to be locked. Also, do we normally put who wrote and directed the episode on the page before it airs? I don't think we normally do. Not that I consider it a spoiler, just saying.--Baker1000 18:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I am renaming this page back to "Dead Is Dead" so that we can stay consistent with episode titles. The press release for "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead" has a capital "I", but the press release for "This Place Is Death" has a lowercase "i". Despite the press release, we still renamed "This Place is Death" to "This Place Is Death". If we are going to stay consistent, then we need to have consistency with episode title capitalization. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 23:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
CTS is right. ABC Medianet screwed up again - "Is" should be capitalized. It's only articles and prepositions in titles that aren't. Note that they got it right on, however. -- Graft   talk   contributions  00:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
What's wrong with you people? It is generally known that the the "Is" is referred to the third person singular form of, "to be" in the English language. You guys should be educated enough to know that the words such as, 'is', 'the' and 'of' aren't meant to be capitalized because those words are of a lesser important status towards the actual titles. I see that you guys are following ABC's terms, but that doesn't mean you have to. --     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email  05:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
There's no reason to insult anyone's intelligence -- especially when you're the one who is incorrect. Verbs are always capitalized in proper titles. Tylerrash 23:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Nusentinsaino - you are wrong, I'm afraid, and the insults aren't necessary. "Is" is not an article, it is a VERB. The press release for "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead" has a capital "I", so why would/should other episode titles not follow the same precedent? -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 01:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Cf. also This Place Is Death --LOST-Hunter61 04:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
"Is" is properly capitalized in this episode title. Here's a handy little tutorial for those who are confused about this. [2] Incidentally, if you look over the Enhanced transcripts, sometimes they get this right, sometimes they get this wrong. Like, for example, in LaFleur-Enhanced transcript, both "This Place is Death" and "This Place Is Death" are used. I took special note of this when I transcribed the captions.  Robert K S   tell me  05:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


Is it just me, or is the infobox red as opposed to blue on every other article? I checked and the code doesn't seem any different...ShadowUltra 03:26, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Wow that's weird. Maybe it's just a glitch. Crash815 Talk 03:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • That's the handiwork of User:Pyramidhead, but it's a little clunky as currently implemented. Right now, the infobox code is required to be edited each week. It would be better if the conditional checked the airdate against the current date. Savvy editors are welcome to improve Template:Infobox Episode.  Robert K S   tell me  07:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I planned to just add another "unaired" argument, but I wouldn't have been able to update this page to make it the right color. Hopefully I can get to 5x13 before it's locked and do it. --Pyramidhead 00:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Or, the infobox could use a conditional that checks the airdate against the current date... but I repeat myself.  Robert K S   tell me  00:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
        • Not unless you want to go through every episode page and convert the airdates into individual month, day, and year arguments, which I think would be required. --Pyramidhead 01:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Scene Partially Shown

When Ben was being judged by the Monster there was a scene where Alex told "I hate your guts". This was actually from a deleted scene from season 3 where Alex was brought before Ben at the Hydra station. I request that that scene be made canon. --LOST-The Cartographer 02:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I agree, that particular deleted scene should be considered canon now. --LeoChris 03:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Great point, Cartographer. I agree. Marc604 06:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I disagree. If we didn't see it aired, it's not canon. Alex's line from that scene is canon; the surrounding scene is not.--Do a cannonball 14:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
    • So by that logic, if Claire were to tell another survivor ''I've met the pilot before the flight. He promised me a smooth ride and told me his mother dated a guy named Bernard.'' that wouldn't make Claire's deleted flashback from Exodus canon ? Maybe it's just my inclusive nature, but if it's mentioned, then it happened. It wouldn't be the first time TBTP decided to recton something back into the show (see The Envelope) ... I figure, if they inserted that specific line, there's a reason for it. I'm sure they could have found something suitable in the aired material if they had wanted to. Now, what reason could there be to include that scene in the episode, other than to make it canon ? --LeoChris 22:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I usually consider all deleted scenes cannon myself. The way I look at them is they arent important enough to be on the show so they really dont matter. --Czygan84 23:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I agree the scene should definitely be made canon. The fact that it partially appeared in the Monster is merit enough. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 00:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Still disagree. It's not our job to decide what's canon; if D&C want to retcon that whole deleted scene, they'll say so. As far canon is concerned, at least at this point, Alex's "I hate your guts" line is completely isolated.--Do a cannonball 15:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Arguing about what should and should not be canon belongs on the canon policy talk page, not here.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
You're right, appy polly loggies.--Do a cannonball 17:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


Rusoe said that she had never seen an other. when she was talking to sayid.Omggivemaafningusername 02:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty clear at this point that Rousseau's claims are false in some way. I really, really doubt the producers completely forgot that--especially since we've been hounding them for years about inconsistencies in her story. ShadowUltra 02:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Also it appears she totally doesn't remember Ben (then Henry Gale) when she caught him in one of her traps.--Mishnayd 02:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • At least we know why she was so sure Ben was one of them 03:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Adama215
  • Nah, if she recognized him, she would have interrogated him herself, like she did to Sayid.  Robert K S   tell me  03:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • She knows that the someone took Alex though. Keep in mind she thought Ben had something to do with the Temple and she seemed sick in someway (face seemed really sunburned) which could just means she's confused and didn't associate the young Ben with the Others, but rather with the Island. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zaggs (talkcontribs) 2009-04-09T08:21:29.
  • She knew him. You could tell by how she behaved when she turned him over. Now that we see that he threatened Alex's life, we see why she backed down from him and let the Losties do their thing. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 20:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I'm fairly sure that when they filmed that scene they did not tell the Rousseau actress that she already knew this man. --Integrated (User / Talk) 15:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


  • The "redshirt" who ran up to Lapidus after he returned from New Otherton yelling, "Frank Lapidus! Frank Lapidus! They have guns" is played by Justin Chatwin, who also played the character Eddie Colburn, the cop who tricked Locke into bringing him to the marijuana co-op, in the episode Further Instructions. Whether or not this is intentional is yet to be determined.
  • Hm, well they sure do look a whole heck of a lot alike...
  • Yeah its not him but dont feel bad when i saw him i was like wow he looks just like Justin Chatwin. --Czygan84 22:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Also he shouts "Captain Lapidus!" not "Frank Lapidus!"--Integrated (User / Talk) 13:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


Why? -- Xbenlinusx 02:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe the protection will expire in fifteen minutes. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  02:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Unanswered Question

I want to ask this here first because I can't remember if it has been answered or not. how does Locke know about the temple? Ben may have mentioned it before to him, but as far as I remember Locke has never seen the temple or knows where it is. Has this been answered or can we add it? --Uncertainty 02:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

These need to be removed when the page is unlocked.

  1. What is The Islands relationship to ancient Egypt? Question not raised by this episode, but rather by "LaFleur"
  2. Why there is a secret passage inside a house that once belonged to DHARMA initiative? Question not raised by this episode, but rather by "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1""The Man Behind the Curtain""The Shape of Things to Come".
  3. Did the DI knew of this? Question not raised by this episode, but rather by "Through the Looking Glass, Part 1""The Shape of Things to Come"/speculation.
  4. What happened at the marina, after Desmond pushed Ben into the water? Theory-baiting. Assumes something happened that we didn't see. At best this is equivalent to asking "what happens next".
  5. How did Our Mutual Friend get from England to California? Not a major mystery. At best, it's a blooper.

 Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  1. I disagree. This episode had further Egypt connections, with all the hieroglyphs, and specifically the image with what appears to be Anubis and the monster. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
  2., I think you mean The Shape of Things to Come. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
  3. Um...what? When was this ever raised in season 3 at all? We never knew about the door back then. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
  4. Not necessarily. Given that this is a Ben episode, we probably won't see more of his past anytime soon. And we never saw how he got out of the water, when it looked like he was knocked out. Also, what happened to his arm? Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
    • I don't know which arm is hurt, but (assuming its his left) its probably from Desmond slamming him into the dock. Ben not being the greatest stature of a man would not have taken that hit too well.--Zaggs 13:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Didn't it get to California when they went to find Mrs.Hawking?
  • Valid unanswered question? - Is the statue referred to in the phrase "What's in the shadow of the statue" the four-toed statue, based on their location? And what is in the shadow that she is asking about? --Skgrey 03:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Agreed, I was gonna add it, but for the lock. Although I'd suggest a better wording like "What is the significance of Ilana's question to Frank?" or something of that sort.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
      • How about "What is the answer to Ilana's question about the shadow of the statue?" and then, in a sub-bullet-point, "Why did she ask this question?" or "Where does her question come from?" Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
        • I think that a generic question about why she asks it is for the best. My first thought when I heard it was that it was a password. My next thought was that she was going crazy from the sickness. Granted both of these are theories, but it's such an odd question to ask, I think we're better off keeping it generic.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
        • It cannot be the 4-toed statue because the 4-toed statue is on the Main Island and they crashed on the Hydra Station island. The only people to thus far leave the Hydra Station Island after the Ajira crash are Lapidus, Ben, Sun and Locke, and unless we assume that they can see the statue from the beach on the Hydra Station island, which is yet to be implied, then it cannot be 4-toed statue because they'd have no answer for that question. Also, even if they could see it from the beach, Lapidus's not being able to answer the question should rather have assured them that he is not in fact an Other, but one of them , just as clueless about what lies behind it as they are. It should not have been cause to attack him, unless Ilana is not who she seems to be.
  • What is Locke supposed to do to take Sun back in time to 1977? - Valid UQ or not? --Ben 07:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I might just not be remembering, but does Locke actually say that he'll take Sun back in time? Perhaps the question would be better asked "How does Locke intend to reunite Sun and Jin?" Since it could be possible that he intends to bring Jin to the present (unless, again, I'm just forgetting some line of dialogue).  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Well the question arises when Sun says that Christian told her to wait for Locke, and he would take her to her husband! So yes, either he will take her back, he will bring him forward, or Christian is lying! --Ben 08:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
        • Cool, I'd probably go with the more general version of the question, then. Any objections? jimbo_the_tubby 08:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

If Ben hasn't harmed Penelope, why does he want Sun to apologize for him to Desmond? I think it's a valid question. We can assume that after Ben was wounded by Desmond he shortly after phoned Jack and then boarded flight 316. So what else has he done to Desmond?--Asian_Dawn 09:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • He shot Desmond before heading over with intentions of killing Penny. Clamshell 14:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Yea I think that's something you'd wanna apologise for --Integrated (User / Talk) 17:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Wouldn't this be a literacey technique. We seem to think Ben has killed/injured or atleast tried to harm Penny before he range Jack. Then later on in the episode when he asks Sun to apologise we think he deffinatly done something to her and that this assumes Desmond is alive. However it is all revealed that Desmond is shot instead (accidental?) and Penny is left, this would be as to why an apology is needed. Also theres something funny about this, maybe it means Sun will be getting off the island and meet Desmond, or was to the point of this whole thing just to make us think Penny was hurt--SmithyBen 00:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
  • A lot of valid UQs posed by this episode, however I removed "Why did Ben take Alex?" because I think Ben explains in the episode he doesn't think killing a baby is in the interests of the Island.. --Integrated (User / Talk) 18:08, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • No. I think that's a valid UQ because he could have just left Alex there since he wasn't going to kill Rousseau anyway. He was never ordered to take her.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrmagic522 (talkcontribs) .
    • No. Ben's statement to Charles is not necessarily what Ben thinks.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 15:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Here is another one that I think should be deleted: Why does the Monster demand that Ben follow John Locke?. The answer is simple: Because the Island chose Locke as the One, the new leader of the Island. The Monster warned Ben by sparing his life and confirmed that Locke is the leader.--Messenger 19:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Your answer may be simple, but it is theory. The Monster never said any of that. --Integrated (User / Talk) 13:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Ben tells Locke that he suspected that he would be resurrected, but he tells Sun that he had no idea it would happen, since he had never seen the island do anything that extreme. Which is true? Does Ben know about Christian Shephard's similar feat? Also, is Locke's status identical to that of Christian? From the viewer's perspective it would seem not. The reborn Locke appears to be more "alive" than Christian, because he interacts with a lot of people in a manner that seems normal for him, while Christian only appears to a select few, and then only to deliver messages for the island. However, given the similarities between their circumstances, isn't it likely that if Christian is "undead" or simply a Smoke Monster doppelganger like the Alex that appears to Ben in this episode, then Locke is too?--Spamtrap6 14:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


Due to the fact that this page has begun crashing, I have locked it for an hour. Editing may resume at 11:15 CST. Hopefully this may fix the problem. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  03:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Why an hour? Why couldn't we try, say, five minutes first to see if that works?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Five minutes would mean that the traffic would still be here. An hour means that less attention will be directed at the page as some of the crowd dies out, and it will be less prone to be overloaded. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  03:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't that just mean that everyone who wants to edit it now will wait around for an hour, and everyone who would've normally shown up an hour from now (say, the people who watch the 2nd airing) will also show up at the same time?  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Pages generally don't crash after about an hour. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it if other problems begin appearing. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  03:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah. Is this a problem with the recent move to wikia, then? Problems like this seem to only have started after the switch.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
It appears to be that way, yes. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  03:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


I believe Locke handed down a vine not a rope. Annarboral 05:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest many years later instead of several years later for 2008. I hope I'm not overstepping, its amazing to watch this go up. Annarboral

In the section relating Charles leaving the island, I deleted DHARMA from the front of the word guards, because obviously the others are already in the barracks, meaning the guards aren not from DHARMA. If they were DHARMA guards, they wouldn't be transporting Charles, a "hostile", on their submarine.--Sommery 15:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that the monster judges people based on their intentions/regrets as well as their actions. Morena Sangre 15:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that Ilana and the rest of the survivors a trying to open the large crate but to transport it. They are tying the bamboo trunks on each side to make it easier to carry. --Asian_Dawn 15:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The section entitled "real-time events" should just be the year, for clarification purposes. Unlike every other episode synopsis, this synopsis never says when the "real-time" events are taking place. Also, since it is assumed that the 316ers are in 2007 (because of the "thirty years earlier" title card in "Namaste"), the year should be changed from 2008 to 2007 on all the subsequent episodes' pages. The inclination that the year is 2008 should NOT be canon since it is merely based on a THEORY that the plane and its pasengers did not travel through time whatsoever, although the narration and storyline suggests otherwise(it was nighttime before the bright flash and daytime after it). --Mrmagic522 16:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Sorry, no. The theory would be that they did travel through time to another year. We know they were in 2008, just as we know there is a time distortion around the Island from Daniel's experiment, the chopper, and the dead doctor's body. We do NOT know they time travelled into another period of time beyond that time distortion. 30 years can easily be a rounding of 30 years and a handful of weeks; it wouldn't be the first time they put 3 years difference, for example, and it wasn't exactly 3 years exactly. It needs to stay as it is. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 02:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Alex's "I hate your guts" was deleted from "Not in Portland"

While this article and the deleted scenes article says the scene featuring Alex's "I hate your guts" comment was deleted from "I Do", I would like to speculate that this scene was actually deleted from "Not in Portland". This is because I vividly recall reading a report in the winter of 2007 in which "Not in Portland" was shown by ABC to the press. I know it was not "I Do" because it was the first episode back from a hiatus. The scene involving Alex was described in the report and I clearly remember wondering where it was when the episode ended. I will look for the report tomorrow, but in the mean time I'm asking where we got the info that the scene was definitively from "I Do". I know it's not a big deal, but still. ShadowUltra 06:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I certainly feel stupid: Ben was in surgery at the end of "I Do" and couldn't have had a conversation with Alex in "Not in Portland". Sorry everyone. ShadowUltra 06:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

What do the hieroglyphs say?

In the scene when Ben is under the temple there's a close up of one of the pillars with hieroglyphs on it. Does anyone have an idea about what it translates to? cooldog 08:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • ba-zing! I agree with Simo - that was one of the clearest shots of glyphs that we've gotten to date - seems an engraved invitation for fans to have at it.--Do a cannonball 14:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Ben´s Voice

When you listen to Bens voice in the end when he says : "It let me live" it sounds kinda strange. Deeper than normal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M4ster75 (talkcontribs) 2009-04-09T05:14:27.

  • probably a combo of amazement as he thought he was going to die once he encountered the Monster, and anger/dismay because Locke now owns him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zaggs (talkcontribs) 2009-04-09T08:29:11.
  • Ben realizes that letting him live, having to follow John's every word, is more of a punishment than killing him. Cheezfri 13:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't go that far. --Integrated (User / Talk) 15:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Since Ben is the control freak that he is, I would expect that being instructed on pain of death to relinquish control to John Locke would affect him deeply. WCFrancis 19:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
        • You guys are looking into this way too much. It's probably because he was surrounded by the smoke monster, watched dramatic moments of his life flash before his eyes, and then saw his dead daughter who threw him up against a wall and threatened to "destroy" him if he lays a finger on John Locke. He was scared shitless.--Pags 18:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)Pags
  • And he had just been crying over being shown his daughter's death once again. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 08:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Sailboat from England to California - explanation?

Do we know for sure when the Desmond scenes at the end of "Because You Left" and in "Jughead" took place in relation to the Oceanic Six scenes? If there's no overlap suggesting they are definitely occuring at the same time, it's possible the Desmond scenes took place several weeks earlier, giving him enough time to sail to England, meet Widmore, and then travel to California. Feel free to point out an indication that those scenes happen concurrently which I may have overlooked.--Nevermore 10:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • We really have no idea when the scenes in Jughead take place its very possible that they were earlier but id assume they were all around the same time period. --Czygan84 22:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Didn't Desmond like sail around the world... is it unrealistic that he travelled to America? --Integrated (User / Talk) 18:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
It's not unrealistic to sail from the Thames to the Los Angeles area. It's just not an easy trip. From England down through the Panama Canal and back up the North American west coast is not something one does in a couple of days. Weeks is more like it. Ms. Hawking is already in Los Angeles (looking for the Island?). I don't know how Desmond's need to see Eloise relates to her telling Ben about the seventy hour time limit.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Here's a stupid question: is there any sort of way you could transport a boat by air? (I'm guessing not, but I'll put that out there just in case someone knows better than me.)  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I guess the short answer is, "Sure, if you want to throw enough money at the problem." People like Penny seem to have a awful lot of the stuff lying around in cookie jars <grin>. The military moves some big stuff around. I think it's more likely -- if we're not assuming a blooper -- that they bought another boat. I suppose you can register "Our Mutual Friend" in both London and Los Angeles. Do any of the screencaps show a port of registration?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:22, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I guess as Nevermore said, as there's no direct connection to the Oceanic six scenes when Desmond is at Oxford, it could have happened a few weeks before --Integrated (User / Talk) 00:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Dock & Processing Center

I hate to be the one to reopen this argument after the length discussion of this at the Processing Center discussion page, but it looks like the processing center is next to the Barracks as in this episode we open with the sign hanging down and then pan to the swingset and Ben walking to his house. Also, it seems pretty clear that the dock that Ben pulls up to is the same one as Sun & Frank (hence the other boat) and it appears to be the same as the one that Juliet arrived at (i.e. an uppercase T with fencing). --LOSTinDC 12:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Yeah, we've been hashing this out on the forum. It doesn't make sense, and now we have conflicting canon with the pictures showing a landlocked Barracks. I say we just leave it somewhere in the middle. It doesn't hurt to have an extra article, and it can be linked from the Barrack's article. The Processing Centre, wherever it is located, is still a separate building and can be named when it is shown as such. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 20:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I didn't think that the Docks were next to the Processsing Center as they had to drive back and forth in 1977, when the sub arrived. --Lepton78 12:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Somewhere around early season 2, I gave up on spacial reasoning existing on the Island. Locke and Boone traveling for hours to find the hatch, only for everyone else to be able to walk there in minutes probably had something to do with it.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  20:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I've got to say, it REALLY bugs me that there could be such a huge inconsistency as the Barracks/Dharmaville/New Otherton being BOTH on the docks, by the water AND way inland as seen in A Tale of Two Cities. There has to be some clarification or addressing of this terrible discrepancy. What gives?--Jaywallin 23:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)Jaywallin

Ben does not know that Jack and crew were part of Dharma?

Ben lies, so this may not be the case, but Ben is claiming to have no knowledge of Jack ever being in the past as part of the Dharma. There is only one past, so Ben should know. Is this an unanswered question? DOes Ben know that Jack, Hurley, Kate, Sawyer ect. were in the Dharma in 1977? --Playsbad 13:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Ben's a really good, natural liar, even in the most stressful or dire situations, so it's hard to tell what he knows or is hiding. The Temple apparently caused Ben to "forget" various recent details (according to Richard) and that might extend beyond Sayid to include the day or two beforehand when Jack and company show up. We don't when/how Ben'll return to DHARMA (sometime between 1977 and 1992), so it's possible that the Oceanics'll be gone by then. I have no explanation for why Ben would forget Sawyer's group, but they weren't in the picture. Maybe he remembered Sawyer, et al, and understood it later from the Donkey Wheel, but didn't expect "the Island" to send Jack, et al, into the past (like he might not've expected the Locke situation).--Tim Thomason 01:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, he knew at least James was there because James confirms this to Sayid after Sayid references Ben and the sandwich ("A 12-year-old Ben Linus...") and Ben references James when he tells Sayid after Jin's knocked out that Jin called LaFleur. Ben is a liar. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 07:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Personally I think, Ben never remembered any of them being in DHARMA, because otherwise his actions would have been very different when 815 crashed. As to why he doesn't remember - this question was posed last episode from Hurley to Miles, and will be addressed. --Integrated (User / Talk) 09:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Alpert was "appropriately vague," as required for the plot, but I don't think Ben has forgotten everyone. He's been on the Island at least four years. Sawyer and party have been there three of those years. Ben remembers his father. He remembers the woman who "Juliet looks like." He remembers "there" well enough not to want to go back. Ben does not remember being shot and almost dying; he doesn't remember freeing Sayid; he may remember Sayid being in jail, but that's borderline.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Here is the problem I find with this whole question about Ben's memory. If you are reading this statement, I want you to picture the face of your 6th or 7th grade teacher. Unless you are 18-19 years old, I bet MOST of you are like me & can't even remember their name, much less their face. Unless the Losties had some signifcant part in Ben's life (ie: Sayid shooting him), it isn't a given that he would remember them even if he comes back to DHARMA & they are still there. We don't know what happens to Sayid, but we do know that after he shot Ben (& Ben now can't remember that), he ran off into the woods probably to never see young Ben again.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  17:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm quite older than that, and I do remember. Older people tend to remember earlier things, and forget what they ate for tea the night before. :P But regardless, trying to remember a school teacher you interacted with for a period of months in one school year is different than someone you saw over several years, and then meet again later, and interact with a lot. Ben might not have remembered Sawyer, for example, right away, based on the memory example you gave, but he would certainly put the pieces together with further interaction with him. The same with Kate. I think this is why Ben made the beach meal for her in 2004. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 02:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Also key to remember is that an average schoolchild will meet and interact with thousands of people in a year. But when you live on an Island with fewer than 100 people, after a couple of years you're going to get to know everybody pretty well.  Robert K S   tell me  02:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Widmore riding Kate's Horse?

Could it be the same horse? Have we seen any other horses on the island? --Playsbad 13:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

- Kate's horse was all black. I don't know for certain, but from what I remember. Widmore's horse was brown. There was a horse at The Flame. It was white black and brown and I'm pretty certain it didn't look like the one Widmore was riding.--Haven13 17:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Here's a question for someone who knows more about horses than I do: How long do horses live? If a horse doesn't live 30 years, then we can pretty much rule out the possibility of it being Kate's horse (unless the horse is like Richard Alpert, lol). --Crash815 Talk 17:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I dont know how long a horse can live, but i assumed it was kates horse too. perhapse it was resurected like ben. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omggivemaafningusername (talkcontribs) 2009-04-09T13:53:55.
  • Not that it matters really, but to answer Crash815's questions, horses live about 20-30 years. Our quarter horse lived to almost 28 and was considered fairly old. AlaskaDave 19:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I can't find the reference so I could be wrong, but I believe Kate's horse has been confirmed as an appertion of the smoke monster.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  17:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I had read this too. Where I saw it was in the theories page about the smoke monster.
    • Problem is, that's not what they said. Monster/Theories disagrees with both the podcast and the transcript of the podcast.
Carlton: So Kate's horse is...
Damon: Undead.
--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
  • If the Others aree using horses as work animals, that means they have a herd. Stallions and mares produce foals.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Our Mutual Friend the same boat is the Elizabeth ?

If so, when Ben talks to Widmore about watching "Our Mutual Friend", he could mean Ellie. Djainette 18:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No it's a different boat. Ben even said "Our Mutual Friend" refers to the boat...--Baker1000 18:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Elizabeth was siezed by the others from Sayid, Jin and Sun, so Desmond wouldn't have it. "Our Mutual Friend" is a different boat all together.--Sommery 18:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

  • yeah the Elizabeth is still back at the island as far as we know. --Czygan84 22:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Man Behind the Curtain

In The Man Behind the Curtain, Ben was shown to still be a member of the DHARMA Initiative at the time of The Purge, and joining the Others then. Alex was four at the time and in Dead is Dead, Ben is showing taking her with him back to the Others when she was still an infant. Is this a blooper or did I miss something? Axemantitan 02:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me that Ben lived a double life from 1977 when Richard healed him until the Purge in 1992. Maybe he had a wife/girlfriend among the Others who took care of Alex while he was at the Barracks? Alternately, and less likely, he raised Alex at the Barracks while a member of the DI. He would have had to tell a lot of lies to explain it, but that's not really a stretch for Ben, is it?--Emissary23 03:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

i thought, when he found alex they had already purged the dharma initiative, but had yet to move into the beraks.Omggivemaafningusername 04:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The only evidence that the Purge took place in 1992 is that Horace said that he's been dead for 12 years. But it would make much more sense if the Purge occured before Danielle came to the Island.--Kemot from Poland 13:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Except that Kelvin was recruited to the DI after the Gulf War, which happened in 1991. Possible the Others recruited him in the guise of Dharma, but 1992 is the official date of the Purge until/unless it is contradicted.--Emissary23 16:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Portrait in Ben's house

Did anyone else notice the painting of a blonde woman on the wall of Ben's house when he's there with Locke, Sun, and Lapidus? Could it be "her"/Annie? It was lit up and situated in a way that suggests that they wanted us to notice it. --mafiaitalia22

Other's Symbol?


The two men exiling Widmore have a symbol on the back of their tops, looks similar in a way to a DHARMA logo..? Have we seen this symbol before?--Integrated (User / Talk) 15:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I agree that it's a bit mysterious. And we know that Lost probably wouldn't give them something on their back by accident (i.e. as opposed to plain black shirts). I don't ever remember seeing it before. --
  • I noticed it. The submarine has a similar but slightly different logo check 2nd image). Could be DHARMA logo for the submarine unit. — Iimitk  T  C  13:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the trigrams from the DHARMA logo, these uniforms apparently belonged to DHARMA submarine workers or something like that. --Kemot from Poland 13:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

    • OK I thought it looked familiar. They probably took those uniforms from DHARMA when they murdered them.--Integrated (User / Talk) 15:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, going on what Kemot said, its actually the same configuration as the very bottom 'line' of the DHARMA logos AlaskaDave 18:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
    • The Trigrams on the vests are shaped so they would fit into the octogon.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The tops the submarine guards were wearing are definitely body armour. It is clearly DHARMA, and could have been taken from the Arrow (which is supposedly a military station of some sort) or another defensive part of the Initiative.elliottthomas|talk|contributions 16:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Why does the Galaga have "B-26" painted on the side of the conning tower? I think it has always been there. How many of these things do "they" (probably DHARMA) have to have to get the unit numbers that high?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


Is Jack's, Kate's and Hurley's photograph appearance notable enough and should it be added to their episode counts? QuiGonJinnBe mindful of the Living Force... 14:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Absolutely not, there is a brief set of rules regarding an appearance seen here at the very top youll see the rule regarding photographic appearances. --Czygan84 23:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Source of Alex

Although I personally believe that the "smoke monster" formed the Alex image, was there anything actually showing that other than Alex appearing in the same area where the smoke creature was? Are we assuming that it was Smokey and then stating it in the article as canon without adequate support? If it is true, the implication is that other walking dead such as Christian are also being formed by Smokey. How does this tie in with post death appearances away from the Island, such as Charlie and Ana Lucia? WCFrancis 19:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Uh, Hurley was hallucinating? --Pags 18:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)Pags
  • there was no other prof other then we know smokey's deal when judgeing people (see mr eko) Omggivemaafningusername 03:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Alex displayed strength I thought was out of the norm for someone her size and she was last known to be dead.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • When Alex has Ben pinned against the column, she says that she will hunt Ben down and destroy him if Ben kills Locke. It would make more sense for Smokey to say that than either an alive (reincarnated) Alex or a zombie Alex, given what just happened. Also, the "hunt you" statement suggests that leaving the Island would not stop the retribution. It makes sense that all of the walking dead are Smokey (or Smokey causing a hallucination for people off-Island). If Christian is Smokey, then are we OK with him physically holding Aaron? I cannot recall any other time than the walking dead physically did anything but appear and give lines (remember when Christian could/would not help Locke with the Donkey Wheel?). Jsultan 05:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC) User: JSultan
  • In light of what we know now about Jacob's enemy being John Locke, I think it's possible that Jacob's enemy appeared as Alex here to ensure that Ben would listen to "John Locke" later on. --LOSTinDC 19:45, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Our Mutual Friend?

If Des and Penny are hiding from Widmore, how does he know the name of their boat? -- Xbenlinusx 05:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

He didn't know the name of their boat. Ben told it to him. --Integrated (User / Talk) 06:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I expect Charles Widmore, with his resources, could have been aware of the name of their boat, their location, etc.  Robert K S   tell me  07:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
No Robert, he didn't know the name of the boat. --Integrated (User / Talk) 13:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I think Charles did know. Watching that scene again, Charles appears to hear Ben say, "I'm looking at our mutual friend right now". Ben clarifies he meant the name of the boat, Our Mutual Friend, at which point Charles believes him. Charles appears to believe him straight away. This tells me that Charles pretended not to know what Ben was talking about, until Ben said he was looking at the boat, thereby confirming the name was "Our Mutual Friend". I think Charles knew. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 16:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Right. No proof either way, but I'm not as quick as Integrated to discount the possibility. It would seem unlike Widmore to let that sort of thing elude him--especially once he knew Desmond's destination. In the "he didn't know" evidence column is the fact that he apparently hadn't posted any anti-Ben security detail for Our Mutual Friend.  Robert K S   tell me  20:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Ben : I'm looking at 'Our Mutual Friend' right now. // Charles: I don't know what you're talking about. --Integrated (User / Talk) 07:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Your point? Of course he would deny it. Rule No. 1 is you never do your enemy the favor of confirming information he floats out to you. What do you expect him to say? "Oh, wow, that's Penny's boat's name. I sure hope you already knew that, because otherwise I just told you."  Robert K S   tell me  08:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I agree that Widmore knew the name of the boat...... but, if he did know it, & he also knew Ben was looking to kill Penny, then why wouldn't he have had some of his hired men watching the boat to make sure Ben didn't show up to kill Penny. He obviously knew where Desmond was going, so you can't say he didn't know where they were at the time.  NEVERGIVEUP  Contribs  Talk  15:27, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Ben & Christian

  • After Frank and Sun mentioned of Christian to Ben, Ben didn't look like he knows about him. Does Ben know about Christian? -- Paintbox 17:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
    • We have no indication whether he does or does not. It would be speculation and theory to try to come up with ideas that he might. He may recognize the name as Jack's father, though, since he had detailed reports on him. However, Sun and Frank didn't mention Christian's last name (I can't recall if Christian did either). Jack's report would probably indicate that Christian's body was on the plane, but it would be speculation to assume Ben put these things together to assume Christian Sheppard's ghost is speaking for the Island. --Cobblepot 04:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Jacob's enemy

With hindsight, will this article will need to be reworded to prevent implications that "John Locke" is the John Locke, rather than Jacob's Enemy? PeterR 18:47, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Or, for that matter, can we be sure that any of the apparitions we've seen (eg Alex in this article) is definitively the monster now that we know of someone that can apparently also assume people's forms who may not be the monster? Dgtljunglist 20:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Cloverfield Monster Picture

Found this on youtube: Yub, just a reference, but didn't see it on this site yet--Smullie 18:28, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

This is just stupid. It looks more like a map or something to me. No significance at all.--Pirate87 08:27, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Asim (uncredited)

IMDB lists a role in this episode I don't recall: Sanjay Madhav as Asim (uncredited). Who the heck is Asim? Is this just a fake entry or actually someone we've missed thus far? I'm pulling for...the former. --Golden Monkey 17:05, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

You know... I've found IMDB to be a fairly reliable source for all forms of TV and movie information except LOST! Probably because I trust the editors of Lostpedia to know what they're talking about far more than whoever is adding Lost information to IMDB. I say if we don't know who Asim is, then ignore the IMDB entry. --Celebok 09:44, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Just one original character?

Since Locke's appearances in this episode are of the MIB/apparition/whatever does this mean technically Sun is the only one of the original fourteen main characters to appear in this episode, and should this be reflected in the trivia section?

How many years has Widmore been trying to get back to island??

When Ben calls Widmore before he tries to kill Penny, he tells Widmore today is the day he is going back to the island. Widmore says something like he has been trying to get back there for 20 years.

If this is 2008, that puts his banishment at 1988. Which is confusing since it is 1989 when Ben takes Alex. And 1992 when the Purge supposedly happens. When do the others move to the barracks? Because clearly they move there after the Purge. Which means that Widmore is banished after the Purge. Which would mean that the Purge happend prior to 1988???

Very confusing. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Windyrotten 17:28, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

  • You've quoted conversation. "Twenty years" doesn't mean 7305 days. It could -- and probably does -- mean some period that feels like twenty years to Widmore. It's surely less than twenty because both Ben, Widmore and Alex have aged between Alex's kidnapping and Widmore's exile. "Dead Is Dead" calls the date 1992 or later.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:42, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • According to the ABC episode recap, Alex is three years old when she is swinging on the swing set, making the banishment 1992. The Ben/Widmore call is late 2007/early 2008 (whole other discussion), making Widmore's time off-Island 15 years, 16 years tops. So "almost 20 years" is a bit of stretch on Widmore's part, if you ask me. :) -- Graft   talk   contributions  19:39, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • "Stretch" is a very good word! 8) --Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:50, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Twenty years looking for the island is not the same as twenty years exiled. He could have been looking for it's location before his exile. Knowing how to get to and from the island is different from knowing where it is. I think this is an unanswered question as opposed to a continuity error. Hawkdeath 11:38, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Archive Footage

Kevin Durand was noted as appearing uncredited, but I changed it to archive footage. Uncredited is for when a actor actually guest starred without screen credit-such as Fionnula Flanagan in The Lie. Archive is for when someone appears, but only in footage for a previous episode. And he only appeared in footage from "The Shape of Things to Come". --Golden Monkey 16:19, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Tania Raymonde - Guest Star or Special Guest Star??

I remember when this episode first aired. I always pay attention to the opening credits. I very vividly recall that Tania Raymonde was credited as a Special Guest Star. I remember, because when I saw her name I realized that this would be a full-on Ben-centric episode, and I debated watching it or not. Not a huge Ben fan. I don’t have the DVD, and I haven’t seen the episode on television since. I’m not questioning the validity of Lostpedia. I’m quite sure you have it right when you call her a guest star. But does anybody know if she was credited as a Special Guest Star for the television airing? I know that they do tend to change things (ie, Jason McCormack/Elder), and on-screen text may be subject to change. Does anybody know if this was the case? DieYoungStayPretty 23:29, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have a download of the TV broadcast on my laptop. I've checked it, and Tania Raymonde is credited along side all the regular guest stars, right after David S. Lee and before Zuleikha Robinson. I must say though, not watching an episode just based on who is centric? Surely, as a Lost fan, you care more about the story being progressed as a whole, or the answers it gives. Turns out it was one of the best episodes of the season according the fans, and I would say the most important in terms of the 2007/Man in Black as Locke storyline going into the finale. I guess we don't all watch for the same reasons. Anyway, your question has been answered.--Baker1000 19:47, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

David S. Lee as Widmore

It came as the wrong kind of surprise to me when young Charles Widmore identifies himself to young Ben. I wanted to believe they had done an incredible job de-aging Alan Dale, but there’s just not enough facial resemblance, and a South African accent is not similar enough to a New Zealand accent to persuade me. So out of curiosity I go reading about this successful, good-looking actor David Lee instead of following the story on the show! I know it’s only a 1-minute scene, but I’m disappointed they couldn’t find a more convincing young Widmore. My disbelief came crashing in and I could only think of the production process. MJ 17:40, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I think David S. Lee played Widmore rather well. They did a good job finding someone who looked similar to him.--Baker1000 20:42, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
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