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"Earliest off-island flashbacks"?

I don't know if this is a error by the author of the article or if it's just me who have missed someting, but i find this odd "These are the earliest off-island flashbacks that have taken place after the crash.". What does this mean? Is the flashbacks in this episode the erliest in time? How do we know that? I have a feeling that many of the main characters have had flashback which have taken place years before the crash; Locke's flashbacks realy spand in a bigger time (just look at his hair :P) and most of all Hurley in "Tricia Tanaka is Dead" and Jack in "White Rabbit" where we se them both as young boys. --Gere 10:44, 9 February 2008 (PST)

They're the earliest off-island flashbacks out of all the ones that take place after the crash. Actually, I don't think there even are any other off-island flashbacks that take place after the crash. They're all either off the Island and before the crash (most of the flashbacks) or after the crash and on the Island ("Live Together, Die Alone"). Although there's the flashforwards, of course. Jeremiahsmith 23:12, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Ahh... I see, my bad then. Yes, that sound correct. --Gere 06:35, 10 February 2008 (PST)

  • The phrasing is pretty bad, though- the "earliest off-island flashbacks that have taken place after the crash". I'm not sure about an alternative, though.--Chocky 16:53, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Flashbacks?

I don't understand why this article assumes all the characters had flashbacks. Obviously, Naomis was, but the others could easily be flashforwards. --PenguinCorrosive 11:23, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I don't think the show would go out of its way to be confusing by mixing flash forwards and flashbacks. Why would Daniel be upset about the plane crash if he already knew there were survivors? Or why would Frank call a hotline and inform them that they were misidentifying bodies if he already knew that wasn't the plane? It isn't stated anywhere, but I figured it was safe to make the assumption that there were flashbacks. -Tazome

Why would Daniel be upset if it flashback? If it's a flashforward, then he's upset because he knows the truth about all of them being on the island. Miles and Charlottes could easily go either way. And they said Frank was a drunk, he could have just been plastered when he called. All of them can really go either way, which is why I don't think we can just assume they were all flashbacks. --PenguinCorrosive 16:19, 8 February 2008 (PST)

When Naomi gets to the island, she comments that the Oceanic Flight 815 was found with all of the survivors' bodies, AND that it was on the news. In Frank's, Charlotte's and Miles' flashbacks, they all clearly point out that the news is just being announced. (Frank=news on tv, Miles=news on radio, Charlotte=news in paper) I am sure that's why they were all placed there. So this is CLEARLY happening BEFORE the Helis come to the island. Thelordnyax 18:42, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Oh! That is a very valid and true point. My mistake! --PenguinCorrosive 01:41, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Confirmed death

Does the title of the episode refer to the newscast about the pilot that Lapidus was watching? Or was it just Naomi?--Theslate 19:17, 7 February 2008 (PST)

I believe it was a reference to all 342 passengers on the plane being confirmed "dead", such as the report Miles heard on the radio before entering the Gardner home.--Croush1211 19:46, 7 February 2008 (PST)

I also think it has to do with Miles "power", that being his ability to discuss events with people after they have passed, i.e. confirming with the dead.(Lukaswindandfire 13:09, 8 February 2008 (PST))

Discussing events with people after they have passed would be conferring with the dead, not confirming.

True but he confirmed the details of Naomi's death with her spirit though. Tigerlilylynn 08:54, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Guest list

As per the episode, I've removed Ken Leung, Jeremy Davies, and Rebecca Mader from the list of guest stars as they receive star billing in the credits. I've also added Fisher Stevens to the guest list. Evil-pineapples 19:21, 7 February 2008 (PST)

I failed to notice, was Fisher Stevens listed in the credits? If he wasn't we can't add him. I failed to notice, does anyone have a screen cap?-Mr.Leaf 19:50, 7 February 2008 (PST)
Fisher Stevens was there. I don't have a screen cap though. Zoë Bell is also credited as a guest star, so I added her, with her role also listed as unconfirmed. --Compossible 20:27, 7 February 2008 (PST)
She's likely the voice on the radio. But unconfirmed works. I guess we'll find out next week. Thanks -Mr.Leaf 20:41, 7 February 2008 (PST)
She is the voice of Regina. --Squish78 10:16, 8 February 2008 (PST)Squish78
Fisher Stevens was the voice of Minkowski for the second week in a row and Zoe Bell was the voice of the woman later in the episode. I Don't know why we're still calling them unconfirmed. Forget the ABC press releases, we know who they are by process of elimination -- not to mention the news stories that have reported the casting. I know I get it, since the news story "didn't come from ABC" it's inadmissable. That may not be the best system, because we're ignoring something we all know to be true. It's slightly irritating.--Jeff 10:36, 8 February 2008 (PST)
Update to my own post: The Minkowski LOSTPEDIA page even credits Stevens as such. Meanwhile the Fisher Stevens page still says "his role is unconfirmed." Someone needs to get on the ball about this. It's getting frustrating.--Jeff 10:43, 8 February 2008 (PST)
There were several women that were not seen in this episode. There is the woman with Daniel at the beginning when he is crying, there is thee NTSB woman that Lapidus talks to and then there is the woman that says Minkowski is unavailable. How are you so sure which one is Zoe Bell??
Because they have not been officially confirmed, and we wish to stick to the producers wishes and not release any information on characters until they are confirmed by them or the producers. Some people consider this information spoilers, so we keep it safe.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  14:34, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Zoe Bell definitely plays Regina, she sounds exactly like her. This is kinda silly because EVERYONE knows that Zoe Bell is playing Regina, yet people still argue against it. In a few episodes time you'll see that Regina is played by Zoe Bell...~ Unfortunate
OK, putting the woman aside, the only male actor unaccounted for this week and last was Stevens and the only male role unattributed was Minkowski. News stories have come out and said he's playing Minkowski. HE'S said he's playing Minkowski. That particular nugget is no longer a spoiler. I honestly don't understand what the big deal is. ABC may NEVER cite him in a press release and we may NEVER see him in person on the show, he could very well remain a voice only character for the run of the show, like Charlie on "Charlie's Angels." I don't know what else needs to be done for something that everyone knows to be fact to BE cited as fact. Because the ABC Medianet has been plenty wrong in the past, especially since it does not come directly from Lindelof/Cuse's mouths. Nikki and Paulo being prime example number 1. Leaving off other guest stars we HAVE seen onscreen being another. So can we please be adult about this, and cite a known fact as a fact? I can't be the only contributer who feels this way, can I?--Jeff 16:38, 8 February 2008 (PST)
I was figuring that she was the voice of Regina, but I wasn't about to start another dispute over it by crediting her as such. I agree that it seems silly to not credit Stevens and Bell yet, but that seems to be the way we've decided to do it, so unless other people change their minds, I'd just leave it be for now. --Compossible 11:25, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Does anyone think that the voice of the supervisor on the Oceanic Airlines Hotline sounded like Matthew Abbadon? Jimbo the tubby 22:23, 7 February 2008 (PST)

Has Ben ever been in anyone's flashback?

Can anyone help me out? My friend swears she remembers a flashback, maybe a Locke flashback, that had Ben in the background as someone's neighbor. First she thought it was Lockdown, but no dice. Can anyone save me the trouble of watching all those episodes over again? Did Ben ever appear in anyone else's flashback, even for a split second?

I think your friend is probably thinking of Juliet's flashback in the Season 3 opener, where she runs outside at the barracks and Ben comes out of his house. So it did happen, but it was on the island. Jimbo the tubby 22:23, 7 February 2008 (PST)


Many thanks. It would seem too juicy to be true, to discover Ben in some early freeze-frame of someone's flashback. My friend has watched the entire series for the first time in the last week and a half. She's probably got all the details jumbled up.

Ben has also been in Locke's hallucination -- he is airport security guard and he is waving the metal detector wand over Jack.

  • That's not a flashback, and that was before Locke knew who Ben really was. -- macosx 10:58, 8 February 2008 (PST)
    • Really!?!? Of course it's not, but it is relevant to someone asking where else they might of saw Ben other than on the Island. In the hallucination we see Ben "off the island" and, other than as a baby, that is the only time -- of course, he wasn't really off the island in a hallucination. And why does it matter that Locke didn't know who Ben "really was." That wasn't the question -- He knew that Ben (aka Henry Gale) was trouble.

Battle Royale reference?

When Miles is in Mrs. Gardner's son's room the words "Battle Royale" have been cut out of something (but not any sort of actual B.R. movie-related image, I don't think) and taped to the wall. This might be a reference to the Japanese movie Battle Royale, which involves a group of people left stranded on an island, supplied with guns and other weapons and forced to fight it out until only one person is left alive.--Deleterious 22:27, 7 February 2008 (PST)

It says Battle Royale, but it looks like 2 pro wrestlers looking at each other in profile. It's still probably a reference to the film, right, a film about kids trapped on an island, made by forces greater than themselves to play a life-or death game. I've noticed a few Star Wars references... remember when Luke busted into Leia's cell, pulled off his helmet and said "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you." Just like Faraday tonight.

I didn't see the poster, but it seems likely a WWF reference -- I can't remember all the ins and outs, but I believe that is was like a Wrestlemania-type event. Any WWF historians here? Interestingly though, a Google of "Battle Royale" brings up this page: [1] which discusses, among other things, The Lord of the Flies and the number 42... The site itself seems very Namaste as well. --Litany42 07:38, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • The "Royal Rumble" is the WWE Pay Per View which focuses on a 'battle royal' main event where anywhere between 30 to 60 wrestlers join the match in intervals (30 seconds to 2 minutes apart) and can only be eleminated by being thrown over the top rope. The last wrestler left is the winner. Wow, who would of thought all those years watching wrestling would ever be useful?--Lonedog80 11:02, 8 February 2008 (PST)
That is the most tenuous of all the suggested references here, by far. I doubt they are referencing the wrestling. Maybe the child was a fan of wrestling, but thats quite a stretch.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  14:38, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • The suggestion is not that wrestling has anything to do with it, just that it may be a wrestling poster. And that poster with the girl on the zebra print rug -- I've seen it before, I think. Does anyone else remember the poster? The whole room just feels very 80s to me... My own research of Battle Royale brought up the other page which I referenced for curiosity's sake only. It is just pure coincidence. There is no possible way that we were "meant" to find that page, or that the WWF somehow figures in the Lost world. (Wow, have I just proved that not everything happens for a reason?) --Litany42 07:26, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Questions about Frank

I'm surprised no one mentioned this actually. When we see Frank on-island he is injured and distraught. His head is hurt and he can barely walk, as well his phone is smashed. Yet, when he makes contact with Jack and them he says he safely landed the helicopter. If he did that, then how was he so injured and why was he scrambling away from it? Further more, why did he not have any of the gear on that the rest of the guys had? He just had some Hawaiian shirt...Voodoo 00:25, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I would guess it was a hard landing and he hit his head on something. If he had a concussion, it would account for him being disoriented. The screen on the phone is broken and that can happen easier than people might think. As for his clothes, he was the pilot and maybe not intended to be part of the field team operating on the Island. It also probably saved weight to have him dressed like that. He was probably supposed to unload them and their gear and go back to the freighter. Dharmatel4 00:44, 8 February 2008 (PST)
I agree the clothes were strange. Dan was wearing a tie. Not normal clothes for a helicopter mission.

I think that's a good question, and my mom and I actually were wondering the same thing. Added. Jimbo the tubby 09:19, 8 February 2008 (PST)

They said lightning hit the helicopter. If you have ever been in a vehicle that has been hit by lightning, it can be quite jarring. Thats probably when he hit his head. --Squish78 10:18, 8 February 2008 (PST)


When we first saw him, he was trying to climb up a cliff side, or maybe out of a gully or something. Possible that he landed just fine, but then fell off a (small) cliff while navigating the island on foot. We could even see something confirming that in a future episode, flashback style. The cow at the top of the cliff really surprised him, who knows, maybe it was the Monster who snuck up on him and surprised him over a steep edge. Come to think of it, I had been wondering what had happened to the animals at The Flame station when Locke destroyed it. Good to see they (or at least the cow) got away, maybe Locke set them free first. Sithboy 14:32, 8 February 2008 (PST)

The animal Frank saw on the island was a bull not a cow, don't you think? anzelm83 21:37, 11 February 2008 (CET)

Whoa! That's going to set a lot of people re-thinking their theories! Well spotted.--Bagpuss 12:46, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Definitely a Bull!!!--Hughie501 21:57, 13 December 2008 (PST)

Whispers?!

In this article, it is stated that while Miles kneels over Naomi's dead body, whispers can be heard. Aren't these whispers just Miles whispering something while "meditating"? I don't want to change the article because I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's just him whispering, not "the whispers". --Snake313 00:52, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • Yeah, this is Miles trying to communicate with the dead, you can see his mouth moviing. Voodoo 08:00, 8 February 2008 (PST)
    • I agree Voodoo, but I think that this is almost certainly an allusion as to what the whispers represent. Kgun5 08:14, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I wonder whether or not Miles will be able to communicate with the whispers on the island. Looking forward to when he encounters them. -- Platypus 23:12, 11 February 2008 (PST)

--Erikire

Charlotte's Dig

Did anyone else seem to think Charlotte knew what she was looking for when she dug in and found the Dharma collar? One thing I suspect is that the island may be in another time period and the scene showing her arriving at the dig is a flash-forward. It shows her recovering the collar in the present. Could she have buried it while she was in the time period that the island is located in (possibly several thousand years ago) as a test to see if she could recover it in the future (present day)?

The newspaper is the time link though. Since the cover story is the false discovery of the flight it takes place after the crash but before they make contact. Tigerlilylynn 06:39, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I think it's more probable that Charlotte's finding of the Dharma collar is a hint that Dharma has been around a loooong time. Perhaps in different forms throughout the ages. --Malic 17:46, 8 February 2008 (PST)

The polar bear doesn't look like it's been there a long time; it's not buried very deep, it's not fossilized, just the bones. It may only be as old as the Purge.

OR the bear was just some other bear from another Dharma test facility in a dessert... Why do people always assume the most extreme in favour of the easy and obvious? Dharma put polar bears in different environments to research their ability to cope. And the polar bear on the island had no collar and lay on its other side. It's not the same animal. No space/time continuum brake here. ;) Roger 13:41, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Charlotte did seem nonplussed by the find. Think about who she could be associated with: Wydmore Corp or whomever is behind it. Given Penny's knowledge of the magnetic anomalies she has the Arctic station looking out for, it's safe to assume the "powers that be" know all about them, which means that if Abaddon is working for that side, and Charlotte is working for him.... Abaddon and his crew are not Dharma, may in fact be a sort of anti-Dharma, and may have been in a competition for the Island's mysteries that Dharma got a edge on for awhile. They've been trying to figure out a way back to the Island ever since, and Charlotte's discovery proves that they will, either because there's some time-travel melarchy going on or because it proves that things can leave the Island, which may not have been the case previously. Note that the bear-buckle was not fitted with a generic "Dharma" logo, it was the Dharma logo specifically for the Hydra station. That bear came from Kate or Sawyer's cage.--Evernight 14:20, 12 February 2008 (PST)

I'm not sure it's not Dharma. Since the Hostiles took control of the island I would assume the remainder of them on the mainland that actually know about the project would try to take it back. This would explain why Ben is blocking all radio transmission and is presumably operating some form of cloaking that keeps the outside out. Tigerlilylynn 09:01, 15 February 2008 (PST)

Sunlight

Daniel points out that the sunlight doesn't "scatter." What does this mean?

Have you ever been under a tree and looked at the sunlight that hits the ground? The mass of the tree scatters the sunlight. He's talking about how the sunlight on the Island seems to be wrong. It could be due to the properties of the Island. dposse 04:42, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I seem to remember someone (Sayid and Hurley maybe) talking about he sunset and mentioning the way the light scatters. AKA Rayliegh scattering or why the sky appears blue.

The page was edited recently and this bit removed, but Daniels trivia section mentioned that the real daniel faraday was responsible for proving a relationship between electromagnetism and its effect on rays of light. (Lukaswindandfire 13:17, 8 February 2008 (PST))

I have some comments on two of the items on the theory page related to this. Magnetism does not "bend" light - it rotates it. Also, the description in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is using heated air to cause a change in the index of refraction of the atmosphere and masking the location of the valley- it is not using magnetism. So I have to go with the Faraday Effect for the reason that the island is not visible - a side effect of the island's magnetic field which rotates polarized light... however this isn't a perfect theory either, because the light from the sun through our atmosphere is only partially polarized... so the island could only be partially "gone". Any physicists out there want to take a crack at this? --Threeangels 03:01, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Could there be any relationship between the light and when Sayid discovered the compass does not point true North? --Makiwolf 12:32, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Looks Like We've Got Another Jumper

Q. When does an anthropologist wear a bullet-proof vest? A. When she knows she is going to be shot.

I have tried to work out why Charlotte would have the vest -- it would make sense if everyone else had it, but they don't seem to. The pilot certainly didn't. So the only other explanation is that she knew it was going to happen.

To back this up, she is also the least disoriented on the island. She asks very specific questions (Was your baby born here...?) even though Locke made it clear that nobody should answer her questions. Very methodical her information gathering, like Juliet with Jack in early Season 3. It's not the answers she is looking for necessarily, but a way to gain their trust.

The "Was your baby born here?" line, in my opinion, was a little nudge to tell us that Charlotte (and perhaps other Freighties) know a little more about the Island than is apparent. Maybe she knew about the problems with women having children there.--Ainulindale 16:39, 11 February 2008 (PST)

What I find interesting though is that Ben didn't seem surprised she survived the shooting. Is it possible he too knows the chain of events? Sawyer says "I bet he already knows how he's going to do it [escape/kill us]" -- that kind of foreshadowing rarely goes unrewarded on Lost. --Litany42 05:38, 8 February 2008 (PST)

He wouldn't be surprised if Charlotte is his inside "man." She seems the most excited to be there, seems prepared and not even that angry at being shot, and she confirms Ben important enough to keep alive.
Based on the Naomi flashback she trained the team up to be prepared for danger. In fact the biohazard gear and gas masks shows that they may have anticipated a repeat of the Dharma purge. Tigerlilylynn 06:45, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Interesting -- I never thought of it that way. I took it to mean that the team was there to do a possible purge of their own. It is always the killers, not the killees, that seem to have those masks...--Litany42 07:43, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • In the opening scene in the helicopter amidst the chaos, Charlotte says "I can't find my vest" or something, and Myles tells her "Just take mine!". --Frenkmelk 07:25, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Ah, I missed that. Too bad -- I thought I was on to something here! --Litany42 07:43, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Benjamin Linus Has Left the Building...

Miles has a photo of Ben as an adult that appears to be taken of him in an airport. Is this the first proof we've seen that Ben has left the island since he arrived as a child?

--Litany42 05:48, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • Yes, it is.

Oh he has a twin/clone. :P Jimbo the tubby 09:12, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Here is the photo...     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email  

4x02 benlinus snapshot

Ben at an airport?

It's probably just a prop error, but the monitor isn't plugged in to anything. Notice the two black "plug in spots" on the back.--Hurley's Dad 10:04, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Also, the monitor is not on a desk... it's facing a wall. As if it was being stored, or out of commission.--Ainulindale 16:40, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Why do people think that this is an airport? Because we see the back of a monitor? What other clues are there? Why couldn't this have been taken somewhere on the island?

  • It seems as if there is a flap with screws in it at the bottom of the pic that looks like one from an airport for running your luggage through for screening. Just a thought.
    • Its the monitor for the x-ray machine. And screens of that size were in use until a few years ago. --Squish78 11:22, 13 February 2008 (PST)
Yeah it's this kind of flap. You can see it better when the camera pans down on the photo. Roger 08:39, 10 February 2008 (PST)

It also seems like there is someone behind Ben and to our right with what looks like a ticket in his hand.

Ben/Henry was in an airport when John went sweat-lodge crazy with Boone. I think it is at least a possibility that when we're confronted with a picture of him that shows very little we, maybe subconsciously, go back to that airport scene ____

DocArzt seems to think that this photo is kind of old, like orientation-era old, and that Ben might have done a bit of time traveling. I don't know why but I think I might actually agree with him. There's something about that picture that just feels a bit... off. Like that huge fucking '80s monitor, or Ben's antiquated vest attire. http://www.docarzt.com/lost-theories/docs-lost-402-confirmed-dead-m.php Evil-pineapples 23:29, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Also, if you see the full picture it looks like Ben is getting ready for a night at the disco. Serious bell bottom action.

  • It's interesting to note how ABC.com's episode summary describes the photo: "a photo of an adult Ben in an airport security line and clearly not on the island". -- Graft   talk   contributions  06:20, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Teddy Bear Nit-Pic

I don't have Season 1 to confirm, but it seems to me that the polar bear skeleton is essentially in the same position as the way the bear that Sawyer shot fell. If so, that would be very interesting since it would be an indication that the physical powers of the island work beyond its borders.

--Litany42 05:56, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • I don't think the time table works for this, though, because that bear was shot on day 2/3, and the excavation would have to be at the same time.
I don't know about day 2 or 3. Based on the game (find 815) they were looking for the flight for awhile before finding the false wreckage. It could be a month or so in. Tigerlilylynn 06:50, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Assuming that we cannot expect a linear time/space continuum on this island, I'm not sure if it matters on what day the bear was shot. After all, if this is an archeological dig, the bear has likely been buried for a long time -- longer than the Dharma Initiative has existed. --Litany42 07:46, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Is it just me or does a bear skeleton and a shot bear lieing on the side essentially look like they are in the same position? Apart from that, the island bear had no collar and lay on its left side and the dessert bear lay on its right side. Roger 12:57, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Naomi's Flashback

I noticed a couple of odd things which i think point to something but i'm not sure... Firstly when questioned about how many people were on the helicopter both Daniel and Charlotte said "4 including me" which sounded a bit pre-planned which started me thinking that maybe there is more than 4 people on the helicopter. Secondly, in Naomi's flashback, after Abaddon is laying the photos on the table, the shot pan's out and as it does, Abaddon puts another sheet of paper/photo on the table... could this be Ben's man? Could it be someone we haven't met yet who is secret?? Could it be the person who attacked Frank after he landed the helicopter safely?? Or maybe it is nothing!--Cosmicbaby10 04:05, 11 February 2008 (PST)

It'd be nice if someone could check on this, but is Naomi's flashback the first in the show personally dedicated to someone who has died? As in, Shannon has appeared in flashbacks, but they focused on another character. I see three possibilities:

  • Naomi is the first character to get a post-death flashback.
  • The flashback is actually Abaddon's
  • The flashback actually belongs to the team as an abstract entity. (Analagous to the opening to Season 3 -- this is a Jack flashback episode, but we see the others gathering and watching the plane explode. You can call this an "Ethan Flashback" or a "Goodwin Flashback" -- both of them are dead. It is really an "Others Flashback".)
  • These are not "flashbacks" in the typical sense -- flashbacks usually show events that occured prior to the crash. These scenes all occured after the crash.

I guess the third one makes most sense at this point, but if so, is it proper to call the flashback "Naomi's"? AmberA 06:18, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I'd just like to add a fourth possibiliy - Naomi isn't really dead... Pierre80 08:56, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Also, I didn't see the flashback (or flashforwards) as belonging to any one person. They were about the freighties, all of them, but not one in particular.--Andreabt 09:00, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I think each flashback belonged to a different character. The first one was Daniel's, the second Miles', the third Charlotte's, the fourth Frank's, and finally Naomi's. Together you end up with an episode with flashbacks from the point of view of the freighties, but individually, that's who had flashbacks. And, yes, that would make Naomi the first character to have a flashback while dead (not counting Nikki/Paulo who weren't really dead :P). Jimbo the tubby 09:11, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Haven't TPTB said dead people don't have flashes? Based on that canon, I think we may need to change the flash to Abaddon's, as (per 4-1) he is still alive.--Hurley's Dad 10:09, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • But can characters who have only been in flashbacks have their own flashbacks? Or do people not on the island have flashbacks? Especially if they do not otherwise appear in the episode? This would be like Penny having a flashback. What I think this could mean is, as others have speculated, that Naomi is indeed not dead. If dead people can't have flashbacks, and an apparently dead person has a flashback, then that person is not actually dead. I can't even remember...did they bury her in this episode? I remember Jack just saying to cover her with a blanket, and I know there was debate about whether to put her on the helicopter or not, and that may be crucial later. If she had been on the copter, she would have "woken up" around people (or NOT woken up if the island's powers can't affect her anymore), but if they leave her on the island, she will come back. --Andreabt 11:17, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Great points. The only thing I can come back with, is that TPTB have not said a Penny-type character can't have a flash. So either Naomi is alive, or it's Abaddon's flash, IMHO.--Hurley's Dad 11:39, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • It seems the writers are taking more liberties this season. Remember, the beginning of 4x01 has a POV scene of Jack in the flashforward when the entire episode is a Hurley flashforward. Jack later appears, but from Hurley's viewpoint. It may very well be that the dead Naomi had a flashback! Or at the very least it was a non-POV omniscient flashback or as stated a general freighterer flashback. In any case, it serves its purpose to give us information to raise more suspense. In fact, I don't think these exercises in liberty are isolated to season four. In season two we saw an omniscient flash-sideways of the listening station and Penny. Can flashback characters have their own scene in present time without a main character in them? Well they did! Either way, it was awkward. --macosx 11:51, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • Good point about Jack's POV moment in Hurley's episode. The beginning of 'confirmed dead', the plane's discovery, also seems like a flash side-ways. It could be a POV moment with the viewer not knowing who is watching. The static could be a hint that it is someone on the island watching a video feed.
    • Those liberties aren't really anything new, since season 2 started with a Desmond flashback (flashing back by about 10 minutes) and season 3 started with a Juliet flashback, even though both of the episodes were Jack's. So I'd argue that Jack having a POV flashforward in ("The Beginning of the End") would even be maintaining a pattern, rather than being something new. Jimbo the tubby 12:03, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Naomi's was covered by a blanket, and Frank assured daniel that he would retrieve her body on the heli's second trip back to the island (Lukaswindandfire 13:25, 8 February 2008 (PST))

I had been thinking that this episode full of mini-flashbacks might actually represent an abridged season of longer flashbacks that might have been stretched out if it weren't for the writer's strike. Who knows how these characters might've been introduced if we'd have gotten a full 16 episode season? Sithboy 14:52, 8 February 2008 (PST)

They would have been introduced in exactly the same way since this episode was written and filmed long before the writer's strike. As for the flashback, it's Naomi's. When (or if, I've never read anyone mention where they said this) the producers said that dead people don't have flashbacks, they probably meant that they're not going to devote a whole episode to, say, Mr. Eko or Shannon flashbacks. There'd be no good way to tie it into the on-island narrative. But in this case, the Naomi flashback ties in with the introduction of the other Freighters, so it works out. Naomi is dead, and she was the focus of a flashback. Jeremiahsmith 23:20, 9 February 2008 (PST)

It may have been written and filmed before the strike, but what about editing? Realizing that the strike was going to shorten the season significantly, it wasn't too late for the editors to "crush" the season down some once the strike became inevitable. These new characters flashbacks may have meant to have been longer, maybe even one per episode, and were instead cut down to make sure the rest of the shortened season had enough room for everything they wanted to do, in case they did not come back for the rest of the season. Probably not, though. You're probably right.

  • My understanding is that TPTB sat down when they found out they had 48 episodes left and did a storyboard arc for all 48 of them on an individual basis (basically, who's flash and high points to hit that episode). I think it's highly unlikely they altered it because of the strike.--Hurley's Dad 16:23, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • Maybe, maybe. But now they're going to have to alter the season to fit whatever new episodes they make with the strike over. Surely there was already a proper ending in place for episode 4x08, so if they make more, that'll have to be changed. Sithboy 14:24, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Sundra Trench Reference

Using the crash date as Day 1, this episode takes place on Christmas Eve (Day 94). It is also two days prior to the earthquake in the Sundra Trench that triggers the mega-tsunami, killing over 250,000 living along the Indian Ocean. I find it hard to believe that they are referencing this part of the world at this point in the story timeline by coincidence. But I sure hope they do not attribute this very real tragedy to the island somehow...

On the other hand, we have not had outside confirmation that this really is Day 94 (i.e. Christmas Eve). Presumably next week somebody will mention that it is Christmas Day, either the Helicoper People or the Losties (to be confirmed or denied by the Helis). Or perhaps it will be an aside out of earshot of the Helis so that the show does not have to reveal any time-shifts at this point of the story...

--Litany42 07:14, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Exactly my thoughts. I remember someone mentioning Thanksgiving in a previous episode.--Ainulindale 16:21, 11 February 2008 (PST)

This may have been covered elsewhere, but isn't the Sunda Trench the wrong way. I know the plane was blown off course, but this flight path seems to be 90 degrees off where it should be. Lets say the plane they found is just a plant, wouldn't you want it to be in a more logical location?--jbeeeb 09:38, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Model Airplane

Lapidus drops a model jetliner into a fish tank seconds before realizing that Flight 815 found in the Sundra Trench is not actually Flight 815 (or at least the pilot isn't Norris). Seems likely that they are suggesting the "found" plane is a model itself, planted by some unknown person(s) for some unknown reason. Perhaps the airline itself to provide closure for the families?

However, there seems to be a weak plot point here too. I have never seen the media show the victims of any airline crash -- I find it unlikely that the news report would show bodies to "help bring comfort to the family". Obviously in terms of story, this scene is meant to suggest the found plane is not real, but I think it could have been handled better (perhaps a missing/different piece of equipment in the cockpit that the pilot would have noticed, or an out-of-place paint detail?) --Litany42 07:14, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I think the show wanted to show the person, not only to prove that it is a fake, but for us to see the person. I think they will be a character. If you look closely the facial features are similar to the the person who's eye Hurley sees in Jacob's cabin.


You think the dead, rotting corpse has similar features the eye Hurley saw? That's quite the stretch. The body is there so to put the final nail in the coffin, and show there are no survivors of 815. --Eman

Based on the ARG I think they planted a complete structure to shake off the families and authorities.

The Mission and Team

The "Oceanic lawyer" who is out for Ben's blood seems to have data on the island. They have been watching, they seem to know about the Dharma purge (as per the biohazard gear), were expecting that there would be "others" and that they would be hostile (the manifest and kevlar). They also know about the island's properties given the group they sent in.

Which raises the following questions: Why did Abaddon/his employer give them Kevlar suits, Biohazard gear and other items for survival if he specifically told Naomi that there were no survivors. It seems that these people KNEW that the plane had crashed right there, on the Island.--Ainulindale 16:24, 11 February 2008 (PST)
Abaddon told Naomi that there were no survivors not as a fact but as a command. I have not yet seen anyone make this point, but it's the most obvious truth. He's telling Naomi that after the mission, there are to be no survivors from Flight 815 (i.e. kill them with extreme prejudice.)--Japhy Ryder 10:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they know about the Dharma purge. Another possibility is that they only think they need the biohazard gear. Think 'quarantine' and the charade with the suit for Desmond's benefit. --Bagpuss 03:44, 11 February 2008 (PST)

It would seem that the team, sans Naomi, are paranormalists. A medium, paraphysicist, a cryptozoologist (a stretch but it's a theory), and the pilot who moved to BERMUDA of all places after the plane goes missing.

My money is on Abaddon being from Dharma/Hanso.

Tigerlilylynn 07:14, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • I agree that the team is there for a reason. I identified them as a ghost-whisperer, a physicist (later connected to electro-magnetic theory), an anthropoligist specializing in researching the Dharma Initiative, and of course the pilot-who-should-have-died-on-that-flight. However, the episode placed Lapidus in the Bahamas, not Bermuda...!

--Litany42 07:23, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I officially hate my DVR's mood swings. Thanks!

We know that the four have been chosen for specific reasons, but it seems they themselves are emotionally invested in finding Ben. What have they been told that makes them want to find Ben?

Frank's flashback

I'm not sure how the author on the main page figures that Frank's flashback definitely takes place in 2004 because of the tourism book's date. It is conceivable that it takes place some time in the future and he just happens to have last year's (or the year before's, etc.) guide still lying around.

While the maps aren't the best reason to nail the date down we are given the news report. The one he is watching is clearly from before they go to the island because it's before the return of the Oceanic 6. Otherwise the report wouldn't make sense. The crash was late September 2004 and this episode (as per lostpedia reckoning, I can't keep track) is Christmas Eve '04. Tigerlilylynn 07:29, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Another thing is that the picture that is shown to be Seth Norris does not look like the character who played Seth Norris in Pilot part 1. I don't know if this is a continuity error or something else, just thought I should mention it.--Deuce Dubbington XVII 06:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

The picture is of Greg Grunberg, who played the pilot in Pilot, Part 1. He just has a mustache.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Picture changes

Gardner-Wall-Before-2

The "before" pictures, from a different angle, showing that the pictures around the boy's are completely different from the ones in the "after" shot

Gardner-Wall-Before

The pictures before the "session"

Gardner-Wall-After

The pictures after the "session"

When Miles heads up the stairs to have his discussion with the ghost, the pictures on the wall can be seen in wooden frames. When Miles comes back down the stairs, the frames of the pictures has changed to (synthetic) brass. Kgun5 07:20, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Additionally the picture the camera centers on is bigger in the second scene. I think this changing of the frames and picture is important since that cannot be a prop error, it'd be just too blatant and a stupid mistake by the prop department if it was. Roger 13:03, 9 February 2008 (PST)

It also appears that the photos, not only the frames, surrounding the focal point photo have also changed. Most notably the photo to the left of the focal point photo - in one it shows a young man entering a car; in the other scene, it appears to be something completely different.

Exactly right, in the first scene the photo shows three people, a man and a woman who holds a baby, the second scene shows a teenage boy in a very different setting and alone. This is so strange since they quite obviously hint at Miles having changed the timeline here, or is that just me assuming the most extreme option... And please sign your comments. Roger 13:29, 9 February 2008 (PST)

I couldn't help but notice, when miles was in mrs. Gardener's house, how much the pictures on the wall looked like eko... perhaps that was Yemi she was talking about? considering it was in the US it is very unlikely, but perhaps they were related. Mia 20:28, 7 February 2008 (PST)

I kinda thought they looked like Eko too, but I'll need to rewatch to make sure.

Yeah they held the shot long enough that I wanted to pause it but the DVR is busted. There's something to the shot, either someone we know or will know before the end. Tigerlilylynn 06:26, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • I just watched it again and looked at the Eko picture again -- the similarity is that they are both young stocky black men. They do not look alike.
    • if you actually compared, you would notice that their lips are the same shape and other features are similar.
    • If a bunch of people see a quick shot and wonder aloud that doesn't imply racism. This show is notorious for showing rather than telling us information about the characters so we are all quite primed to see connections which is why we try to screen cap every second of the show. At the time of your comment, no one had the chance to verify their theory. Tigerlilylynn 09:51, 9 February 2008 (PST)
  • I think they show the picture twice because the frame changes.
  • Yes, that is exactly it. The frame changes. Miles somehow changed the picture frame when he was upstairs. That's why the camera lingered on the picture. Now, whether Miles changed the timeline or magically transformed the frame or maybe the writers are just trying to tell us that memory (flashbacks) is subjective and maybe not as cut-and-dried as we've all assumed for so long, that's the discussion we want to have. It does look like Eko, sure, but what about the frame?? This is a clue to the bigger overall LOST mysteries; i.e. If there's something funny going on about time, what is it? What are the flashbacks? Are they actually the pasts of our characters, or is there some sort of dilation/looking glass effect that just slightly tweaks everything? Why does Charlie say that he can't swim, then he says that he was a swimming champ? --bq 21:27, 10 February 2008 (PST)
    • I think it was established that Charlie was just being cowardly in the beginning and exaggerating in the end in order to be the one to go to the station. Tigerlilylynn 09:11, 15 February 2008 (PST)
    • I'm pretty sure there's a difference between swimming out into the ocean to rescue a drowning woman versus holding on to a bag of rocks and sinking to the ocean floor. Charlie *can't* swim, that was established, but he lies when he finds out that he needs to go down to the Looking Glass. Jimbo the tubby 10:22, 15 February 2008 (PST)
That is exactly the reason. No young Eko here people, move along. :) Roger 13:50, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Mrs Gardner

Was it just me or did anyone else think that Mrs. Gardner looked like Rose and so could possibly be a relative? --Vanessa 04:41, 12 February 2008 (PST)

No offense to the poster, but without substantial reasoning, please avoid posting look-a-likes, becuase it tends to boil down to people of different races all look the same to people from the viewing race. (I.e. White people all look the same to black people and black people all look the same to white people.) This is a terrible generalization, but it manifests itself all over the Lostpedia theoriesWikistoriographer 11:18, 19 February 2008 (PST).

Who Ya Gonna Call?

Miles uses a dust-buster during his exorcism session. Seems a definite nod to GhostBusters whose name is directly lifted from the then-amazing Dust Buster.

--Litany42 07:26, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Hmm. I've never heard that origin. While the Akroid/Ramis/Murray Ghostbusters of the 1980's may have shared a name-based synonymy with the then-popular vacuum device, "Ghostbusters" were portrayed on film in the 1970's The Original Ghostbusters years before the invention of the Black&Decker "Dust-Buster". Also, the 1980's Ghostbusters film was conceived years before it's production and also prior to the Dust-Buster's production. Any "nod" to either series while seemingly logical is debatable. Frankie Viturello 16:44, 11 February 2008 (PST)

  • I stand corrected -- I can't find a reference either. I seem to remember Dan Ackroyd talking about it on Entertainment Tonight when the movie came out, how the machines suck in the ghosts like a Dust Buster, but memory plays funny tricks sometimes -- especially 25-odd years later! Perhaps it was just a connection I made in my own head... and your reference to the original movie seems to prove that. Regardless though, the producers could have used anything in that scene. Why would they use a Dust Buster-like unit? Even if it was coincidental, someone would have noticed a connection before the scene was shot. I can't believe that the Ghost Buster using a Dust Buster is anything but a deliberate move. What it means though is certainly debatable! But then that's what the Discussion page is all about... --Litany42 07:38, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Is the race really important?

Just a thought here that we don't need to point out that the boy Miles is communicating with is a "black" boy. Is the race of the boy really that important? Would we point it out of the photos were of a white boy?

Did we call Michael a "black man" when we first saw him in the pilot and before we knew his name was Michael?--Bigfunkymonkey 08:22, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • It is a characteristic, just like hair or eye color, except that it's MUCH more noticeable and narrows down the possible family connections a person might have. I'm pretty sure that we comment a lot on whether someone is "Austrailian" or "Asian". I don't see anything remotely racist about using a descriptive word in the analysis of new characters, especially the ones we know precious little about. Kgun5 08:28, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • I don't really see how it matters; the word "black" isn't being used in a derogatory sense.--HaloOfTheSun 02:59, 9 February 2008 (PST)
  • Race and nationality are important clues in figuring out which cast memebers are represented in photos and story lines

Were the Members of the Team Supposed to be Losties?

I am wondering - when Frank says he was supposed to be the pilot... and Charlotte seems entirely in disbelief that the wreckage is found -- were they ALL supposed to be on the flight?

I would even imagine a near death experience such as missing a plane that went down could explain a little of Daniel's psychosis or nervousness.

Just a pondering.

  • I think Charlotte is in disbelief because she knows or suspects that the plane went down on the Dharma Initiative island (going back to my theory that she is an anthropologist specializing in the Dharma Initiative, and possibly the island.) Frank was shaken because he was supposed to be the pilot and because he knew the actual pilot (and perhaps most of the crew). Daniel is just an introverted, socially-awkward physics nerd. Not everyone can be Sawyer-smooth I guess... --Litany42 09:58, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Not so sure. Daniel's opening flashback had him very upset about the "discovery" of the Oceanic wreckage, with an unseen female character asking him why he was so upset. His answer was "I don't know". I think this is a valid point. Sithboy 22:58, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • I agree, that is a valid point and Daniel definitely has something to hide. But as he has shown, he has a hard time keeping those secrets under direct questioning. Obviously they are all hiding something, as the "Not Penny's Boat" reveals. The question is what? This partly answers why he is nervous. The other parts are that he is scared about the mission, and that he is a naturally introverted person who would be nervous meeting anybody new (IMHO). --Litany42 07:31, 10 February 2008 (PST)

What is the powder?

What was the powder in the bag that Miles finds, was it heroin or a yellowish substance which could be Holmium?

Just some irrelevant drugs. Roger 13:23, 9 February 2008 (PST)
  • Looked like the same as the heroin Charlie had.

This leads me to the question: did we ever see Charlie buying heroin in a flashback? Because the guy Gardner was a music fan, was shot dead and had a huge pile of money -- he could easily be a dealer, maybe Charlie's dealer. -. Grillage .- 00:10, 10 February 2008 (PST)

No, since Charlie lived in Manchester, UK and Gardner in Inglewood, USA. And although Charlie came around much with his band I doubt that he had a teenage supplier in a backwater town in California. Roger 08:49, 10 February 2008 (PST)
  • Inglewood is known for gang violence and drug-dealing amongst a Latino/Black majority population; it comes to no suprise that a young man who lived with his grandmother (parents may be in jail, dead or drug-addicited) is murdered and has drugs and cash in his room. It is not 'a huge pile of money,' perhaps just a few thousand U.S. dollars. Pixielo 16:41, 10 February 2008 (PST)

"Unanswered Questions" section

Daniel

In the "Unanswered Questions" section, someone asked why Daniel's wife referred to him as "Sam". She did not. She called him "Dan" short for "Daniel". Perhaps the individual thought that it might be a Find 815 reference. I will delete that question since her reason for calling him "Dan" is obvious. --Jamescboyd 10:34, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Are we sure it was Dan? It sounded like "Sam" to my wife and I. Anyone check the closed captioning on that line? --Minderbinder 10:48, 8 February 2008 (PST)
The first two times I watched it I heard independantly "Sam" each and every time. However, I just rewatched that scene and can confirm that at least once she calls him "Dan" out of the six or so times. The other ones are unclear and could be interpreted as either one, but since his name is Dan and at least once it sounds like "Dan" then we can assume she's only calling him "Dan." Still, any CC confirmation would be appreciated. -- macosx 11:06, 8 February 2008 (PST)
The woman says "How do you want your eggs, Dan" which definitely makes his name sound like "Sam". She then says his name three more times, the second is definitely "Dan". Closed Captioning confirms this as well. Cbodine 01:54, 9 February 2008 (PST)

After months of looking forward to Jeremy Davies on Lost, I remember now being confused midway through my first viewing of "Confirmed Dead", thinking, Didn't I hear him called Sam earlier? I think there's something to this. Sithboy 23:03, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • Daniel's wife calls him "Dan" each and every time. Her accent may make it sound like she's saying "Sam" to some, but she's simply not. I can understand how people may have been confused initially, but a simple viewing of the scene should erase any doubt. There is nothing to this. Kgun5 05:54, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Frank

The question "Why was Frank Lapidus replaced as pilot of flight 815?" is incorrect. It should say "Why was Seth Norris replaced as pilot of flight 815?" Platypus 10:55, 8 February 2008 (PST)

No, Frank was replaced. He was supposed to pilot it, but didn't. -- macosx 11:06, 8 February 2008 (PST)
Ah, right. I was thinking about the dead pilot's body being recognized by Frank as not being Seth Norris's body. If that is truly not Seth Norris's body, then why was that body replaced? -- Platypus 11:49, 8 February 2008 (PST)
Not too sure if I'm reading the question right, but that body was "replaced"/faked in an effort to cover up the fact that Oceanic 815 had not landed in the bottom of the ocean. Seems a little too simple to be the answer though...

On the Island

Did the island (via lightning) cause the helicopter to go haywire? -- Platypus 22:37, 11 February 2008 (PST) In regards to the question: "Why did the people on the freighter choose to send a helicopter at night?", the answer could be that they were being cautious. They were already warned by Naomi, so it is understandable that they were expecting some hostilities. They came armed with handguns and a crate of gas masks, and Charlotte has a bullet-proof vest. -- Platypus 23:28, 11 February 2008 (PST) Perhaps the island has it's own defense mechanism against aerial intruders. Oceanic 815 flew overhead when off course and subsequently brought down. Naomi's helicopter flies over and is brought down. A helicopter flies overhead and is struck by a storm. Just a thought. --jbeeeb 09:36, 13 February 2008 (PST)

  • I think you have something there. It would also explain why they were building the airport (if Juliette is to be believed) on the Hydra island instead of the main one. But don't forget that 815 was likely brought down when Desmond didn't enter the code. This may be an anomaly though -- 777s don't offer a direct threat to the island because there is no where to land. Besides, if storms are part of the island's defence mechanisms, high-flying jets couldn't be reached, whereas low-flying helicopters looking for a place to land could be. --Litany42 11:01, 13 February 2008 (PST)

As a side note, when we see 815 over the island it is pretty low. I know there was a storm and all, but why was it at such a low altitude?--jbeeeb 09:45, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Pilot/Grunberg

Anyone have a good hirez screenshot of the pilot's photo? I've seen speculation online that it's not a picture of Grunberg, but it looks like him to me, just with a mustache. A clear screencap at a decent resolution would clear it up. --Minderbinder 10:47, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I of course can't confirm positively, but I'm looking at it right now and upon first viewing and now this viewing I'm certain it isn't him. It could be intentional, or it could be because they couldn't get Grunberg for the photo due to other commitments. Also, the Pilot never says his name in the pilot episode. Does he mention it in the cut material? Could Seth Norris be the co-pilot or the pilot from the pilot episode actually be the co-pilot? -- macosx 11:21, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I don't have a screenshot, but it's pretty clearly him. He just has a mustache. Jimbo the tubby 11:12, 8 February 2008 (PST)

It is him, I uploaded a photo, go see it on Seth's page. - TheAma1 11:37, 8 February 2008 (PST)

It is him. Why would Frank otherwise say something as ambiguous as "He's missing his wedding ring" and not the obvious thing to say: "The man in the picture is not Seth Norris"?--Ainulindale 16:17, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Also, with the fact that J.J. Abrams and Greg Grunberg are best friends, he would be like the easiest actor to call in for a photo shoot. The mustache might even be a joke between them.Wikistoriographer 10:48, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Resurrection

Does the poster in the bedroom that Miles "works" in have a poster that says "resurrection" on it? It is to the left of the tickets and when he sits down on the bed and the camera pans around the room you can kind of see it.

Resurrection

Yes, it does. Roger 13:12, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Episode Picture Suggestion

Throwin' it out there, but I think the image should be of the 815 wreckage underwater, not of a crying Daniel. Amirite?The-room 11:15, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Does that make anyone think of the Elton John song?

Prediction: Daniel Faraday will end up being one of the best characters on the show.

Maybe he will, but I'm already sick of him and his tears. If not the wreckage, maybe all four freighter people. (If possible) - The-room 09:54, 9 February 2008 (PST)

I think these four will not only be with us for a while, but they will be the catalysts that are going to take us to the endgame of the show. If you're already sick of them, maybe it's time to pack it in and pick up Veronica Mars on DVD.

Maybe, man, maybe. I meant I am sick of seeing Daniel as the picture, is all. - The-room 13:58, 11 February 2008 (PST)

  • Okay, I have a suggestion for the picture: as of the end of Season 5, Charlotte was the only member of the science team (who was also a main character) who did not get an episode to herself, so maybe we should put a picture of her from her dig as the main pic for this episode. --Crash815 Talk 04:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
    • No. Just because Charlotte didn't get her own episode doesn't mean we have to change the episode pic of another one to give it to her. This image has worked well for the episode, and I think it should stay. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  04:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Pictogram voting support Personally, I think this is a great idea ... Yes, Daniel's picture works, but I don't see how Charlotte's wouldn't. Plus, it is her only centric episode. (And, no, I do not think Dave should have a picture of Libby as the main picture ...) It's just, here, why Daniel and not someone else ? Especially in a scene that is seen again in another episode ... It doesn't define the episode. If someone mentions Confirmed Dead to me, my first thoughts are ``Oh right, the episode with Charlotte/Naomi/Frank's only flashback.`` --LeoChris 04:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Pictogram voting support If only because I hate that picture of Dan.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Science team

Another idea: what about this picture from the science team page? It's missing Charlotte and Naomi and it has Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Julet, but we don't have a picture with all of them, so this might be the best we can get. I also have one more idea, but lets see what people think of this idea first. --Crash815 Talk 19:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Locke Hanging out at the cabin

Did anyone hear when Locke said they were going to this cabin he hangs out at sometimes? So he has been chillin with Jacob Glossygirl0107 11:33, 8 February 2008 (PST)glossygirl0107

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that Ben perked up when Hurley started talking about The Cabin early in the episode. Sort of a "He can see it too!?" look on his face. --Malic 17:57, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • I did see that, good call, Malic Sithboy 23:10, 8 February 2008 (PST)

"Did anyone hear when Locke said they were going to this cabin he hangs out at sometimes?" No, because he didn't say it. :) He said "There's a cabin I have to go to." Roger 13:16, 9 February 2008 (PST)

  • This probably needs to be in a different section but I don't know how to make a new catagory. Anyhow, did any one see the parrallel between Walt stopping the rain in season one and then Locke stopping the rain in this last episode? Did Locke get a new "power" when he saw Walt? Iiioftexas 05:44, 14 February 2008 (PST) iiioftexas
    • I got the impression that because he's much more in tune with the island, that he has a much higher sense of what the island has in store for them - I don't think he "caused" the rain to stop. That being said, he's seemingly in touch with Walt, so maybe he "asked" Walt to stop it for him so they could continue on their hike.--Kensol 09:30, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Theory on dig site location

It occurred to me that the dig site in Medenine could be located at the exact opposite side of the Earth from the island. Through some experiment or accident the polar bear could have been transported there. I can only account for the age of the polar bear by some means of relativity or time travel. I used a tool to locate a theoretical position of the island, and it matches up in the general location of where the island might be. --Shalley303 11:50, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Opposite side of world from Medenine

Possible Island Location?

  • Yes this is very interesting. For me its significant that theoretical Vile Vortice portals exist very close to these two areas i.e The Fiji Vile Vortice and the Sahara Vile Vortice. See the Vile Vortices theory. They are also antipodal. --Kivipat12:43, 8 February 2008 (PST)
    • Based on some more research it looks like this location is far too south to be where the island is located. The point is 2,000 miles south from where the plane was assumed to have turned around (Flight_path_of_Oceanic_815). The plane would have had to of crashed within 1,125 miles of the turnaround point. I whipped up this Google Maps after doing some more research. --Shalley303 14:07, 8 February 2008 (PST)
    • Vortices is plural. The singular form of the word is Vortex. Vile Vortex.
    • Very interesting, but what if the island is actually some sort of biodome located at either the North or South pole?

Writers "talking" through characters in episodes

Okay, You don't have to agree with me but I'd love to hear your opinions on this one: I find it unoying when characters say or do things that "breaks the 4th wall" and doesn't look authentic for that character. It happened twice in this episode, again, it's kind of subtle and not necessary true but when I see this kind of stuff is like listening to someone sing out of tune... okay, enough introductions :) The 1st time it happened was in the chat that Sayid and Juliet had. Sayid says something like "You were some time with the Others". Now, Sayid calling Ben's group that way is understandable but don't you think that Juliet would find it strange to talk of herself as one of the Others as that term was invented by the losties. I would expect her to comment to that name somehow... (she might have done that already off screen though...) The 2nd time was when Locke asked Ben "What is The Monster, the black smoke". This was definatly a reference to a frequently asked question by fans and it is a nice technique to "get back at the fans" but the way it was played out was a bit off in my opinion - it just doesn't sound right for Locke ask this specific question and in this way.

That's my two cents on this metter - feel free to comment... By the way - I really loved that ep. :)--Avudim 13:05, 8 February 2008 (PST)

  • I really can't agree with you. I'm sure in the several days that Juliet has been on the island with the Losties, she's heard the term "Others" several times. As for the Locke quote... in the beginning, the Losties were sure it was a monster, as they only heard loud noises and saw the pilot get killed by it. Later, when they attributed the loud grinding noises to the giant plume of black smoke, it would only make sense that Locke and several Losties would refer to the black smoke as a monster of some kind.--Croush1211 14:16, 8 February 2008 (PST)
  • I think the writers talked through Ben in the end. Locke asks him a point blank question about the monster - Ben falls silent, then starts spouting answers about new developments, letting the old ones lie. Moo 17:34, 8 February 2008 (PST)
    • Good one, Moo. We're just supposed to suspend our curiousity about all the questions they left hanging about the Others now that we've got 4 new characters, but I'm along for the ride...
  • I think the "what is the monster" line is hilarious, maybe not intentionally or to anyone else. I can picture it. You have a gun to Ben's head, he is using info to barter for his life, so you ask the biggest baddest question there is.
    • And for the second time, an "Other" has portrayed that they have no clue. Juliet also did it in "Left Behind". Is there an unspoken code that says "all Others shall lie when asked about Smokey", or does this group actually not know (or control as some have surmised) what is living in the vents of the island? And if so, why would Ben lie about that when confronted with the opportunity to save his life, and yet spill his guts about C.S. Lewis?--Hurley's Dad 19:53, 9 February 2008 (PST)
      • To be fair, they built a fence to keep it out. That doesn't imply any further understanding than finding a weakness in it and exploiting it.--Chocky 20:17, 9 February 2008 (PST)
  • No. I don't agree at all. The Losties have always referred to "The Others" as "The Others", and since they're not Dharma, and Juliet hasn't offered anything else up, Sayid has nothing else to call them. And he could've said "the others" as in "the other team", which is really what it means anyway. As for "The Monster, the black smoke", there's a possibility that Locke's encountered a couple monsters, and wanted it to be clear which one he meant. Or just wanted to make sure Ben didn't say "It's you, John." or something like that.--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 11:30, 9 February 2008 (PST)
  • I'm going to say this episode was the first time I was having real difficultly with not getting answers. It was one thing when they had captured Ben-- obviously he won't tell them what they want to hear. But now they've been with Juliet and Alex for some time without asking them ANYTHING about what the Others know. Then with the crash-- you've got guns trained on these guys, and want to know why they're really here... so you'll let them be silent and just go run through the jungle some more? I think Locke asking, point blank, what the monster was was a funny scene, but hit a bit too close as to how many questions went unasked this episode. AmberA 10:55, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Christmas Eve?

Doesn't this episode take place on Christmas Eve? Merick 13:19, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I'm 99% sure that following the Lost timeline, it was either Christmas or Christmas eve. Either way, I'd buy that too much is going on for any character to mention it-- they're too concerned with potential rescue / annihilation to suggest they sit down and have a proper Christmas. When they discover they're not all going to die / they're not really getting off the island, they'll settle down and have a late Christmas. AmberA 10:57, 10 February 2008 (PST)

I could see Rose making a comment about it. I'm sure it won't be ignored entirely. --Makiwolf 18:14, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Fake Oceanic 815!!

Why doesn't anybody speak about the fact that the plane discovered at the beginning of the Ep is a FAKE one since there is the cockptit under the water. But as remembered in 4x1, the cockpit is in the jungle !!! So, we can only assume that the plane is fake to make the research stop !! :) --FrenchFlo 14:03, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Uhh, no one speaks about it because there's nothing to speak about. We've known that a fake was presented to the general public since 3x18? Not sure of the number, but late in season three. There's nothing to talk about here... ProjectHate 16:46, 8 February 2008 (PST)

It's obvious. The entire plane was 'found' WHOLE, in one piece, underwater, while its parts are broken up all about the island. Moo 17:35, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Not that there's nothing to speak about, but it's probably one of the biggest, most central mysteries of the show. Whoever put that fake at the bottom of the ocean obviously went to a great deal of trouble to hide what really happened to our people, and has the money, motive, organization, and imagination to create this ginormous coverup. Q: Who is it, and what are they/he/she covering up? We won't get that one until near the end of the series, I bet. My guess is that it's Penny's dad, who was introduced in the S2 finale, the same episode that featured a Dickens novel called Our Mutual Friend. Possibly he's in some sort of collusion with Sun's father and/or Dharma, or what's left of Dharma, or Return Of The Dharma. Not much evidence for this, I admit. Just what I think at the moment.

Is it just me or is the "found wreckage" broken into three large parts, roughly lining up with where the "real plane" broke into three? Maybe they're more connected than we thought?? --Gluphokquen Gunih 14:50, 9 February 2008 (PST)

There is plenty of theories about the "fake wreckage" -- --  >: BLEF    08:07, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Strange object at ca. 1:30

Just after the voice says "... but don't hold your breath", the ray of light hits an object that seems out of place at the bottom of the sea. I think it is most certainly not a rock, but I can't really tell what it is. Could it be of any significance? Loewe2 14:47, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I watched the scene you're describing, and all I saw was an open suitcase. It's most likely from the staged 815 crash. - The-room 16:33, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Yeah, it's just a suitcase and it's definitely from the staged plane crash. Roger 13:21, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Best Question on this Page

"Why did Naomi have a picture of Desmond if they were looking for Ben?" That is some smart thinking I'll have to say. Cheers to whoever thought this up. Moo 17:27, 8 February 2008 (PST)

Suggests to me that Widmore is behind the freighties. I have thought before that he could be responsible for Desmond ending up on the island. They are there for Ben, but if they see Desmond they will take him too, or kill him.


Somebody on the outside world knew that Desmond, Ben, and Flight 815 survivors were all in the same place.--Eyeful Tower 12:46, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Matthew Abaddon seems to fit that bill nicely. He told Naomi a couple of times that there are no survivors and to stop asking questions, which seems very suspicious. -- --  >: BLEF    08:16, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Sam?

Was my poker group the only one that heard Daniel Faraday's "wife" calling him Sam? Boloboffin 19:52, 8 February 2008 (PST)

I don't know that she truly did, but I heard her say what sounded like Sam, once. She calls Daniel by his real name, afterwards says what sounds like Sam, and says his real name again. Who knows. - The-room 09:51, 9 February 2008 (PST)

She said Dan --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 11:03, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Bloopers

Why is a "not plugged in computer" a blooper? Maybe it has to be not plugged in ...

  • It has two open holes meaning no power and no signal.
    • I'd like to add that we do not know yet if it is a blooper as far as the show is concerned. Perhaps it is a monitor not in use wherever Ben was (it doesn't exactly look like a work station), or that the photograph was faked and that the missing cables are intentional. --Martonic17 15:02, 9 February 2008 (PST)
    • Maybe it's a stagged photo? 'Shopped' to make people believe Ben has gotten off the island, or it could be a photo of a storage place. There are a hundred different possibilities to write this 'computer without input nor power" because I highly doubt the Lost crew messed up crucial evidence to Ben leaving the island. The writers were on strike, not the props or editing crew. --Lonedog80 15:14, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Inconsistencies with FIND 815 ARG

Those who played the game were exited to see Christiane I and Sunda Trench, but also noticed various inconsistencies with what we saw in the game:

  • The discovery was made with one ROV in the game, operated by Sam Thomas. In the opening scene thete are 2 ROV's, and none of the operators can be identified as Sam.
  • When the news broadcasts the video of Christiane I, the ship has the appearance different from what we saw in the game.
  • When the map of Sunda Trench is shown, the location of Oceanic 815 is not in the coordinates that Sam received.

Although some of this can be explained (the news didn't had any footage of Christiane I, so they showed a similiar, but different ship), the other can't. Therefore I'm raising a question: should the game be considered alternative not only to our reality, but to establised LOST reality as well? Malachi 02:51, 9 February 2008 (PST)

The information found in Find 815, eg, Widmore and Maxwell, and Flight 815 should be considered Canon, the discovery of events should be made canon from the show not the ARG. The storyline was changed in the episode to make it look more professional, and to make sense to people that never played Find 815. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 11:03, 9 February 2008 (PST)

I think it is more so just because it wouldn't have realy made sense to the users who did not play the game to understand if they had the dialogue that they had in the game.

Maybe we can consider there were two search parties? One by Sam Thomas, who found the wreckage, and then another after that, more professionally conducted, by authorities and/or Oceanic, to make sure about everything there. -. Grillage .- 23:26, 9 February 2008 (PST)
Why would there be any need to have a different group to find the wreckage so as not to confuse people who didn't play the game?! This way, we have several random characters that absolutely NO ONE knows--If they had stuck with Sam, then the people who hadn't played the game would've known exactly as much about the search as they do about this search! I don't understand your argument at all!--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 00:33, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Jesus, man, there's no need to get all crazy about it. It was pretty much a question, a tentative way to look at it. So, ok, you came up with more than one issue. First, I don't know a lot about Find 815, so I'm not sure what kind/size of rescue mission Sam Thomas assembled. Considering he's just one person, I thought "maybe the guy tried and found, but they're gonna need some heavy equipment to make sure, not to mention Oceanic's direct intervention". Imagine you find oil at your backyard, that would be kinda the same. Second thing, we don't have several new characters. The people in this hypothetical second mission would be mere employees, pretty much irrelevant to the story. Sam is the one who found the thing, that's all there is to it. Third, people who followed the game would know Sam and could assume everything I said in the two answers above. People who didn't would watch the episode and that's it. If you think about how hard it is to prospect that deep in the ocean, the possibility doesn't sound absurd at all. But I'm not stating anything here; as I said before, it was just a question, a huge "maybe". If you have facts that could contradict me, please, go on and tell me, so I'll know better, no harm done. -. Grillage .- 02:47, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Sorry I got kinda crazy, I just have seen that argument elsewhere and it really gets to me because it doesn't really make sense. Sam Thomas didn't launch his investigation, he joined a separate investigation which was doing pretty much exactly what the news-woman said. They had ROVs on his investigation, they were on the Christiane I just like the woman said. If they had used Sam, they wouldn't have had to introduce him at all, just like they did with these ROV pilots. They would've just used his voice and his moment of discovery. It would've been no different except that it would be internally consistent.--Ex-Pope Cardinal Richard Corey 12:00, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Once again, my argument was that the situation was changed for dramatic effect, if the Sam Thomas version was played on Lost, it would not have looked as good as it did in the TV show so they did it for increased quality, in addition I personally feel that the Find 815 ARG was written by ABC, not the actual writers (I may be wrong, does anybody have any proof otherwise?) and that the only reason the ARG was made was to promote Lost, lets not forget this ARG had zero advertising inside it unlike the Lost Experience. Find 815 has limited canonicity. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 04:04, 10 February 2008 (PST)
"Sam Thomas didn't launch his investigation, he joined a separate investigation which was doing pretty much exactly what the news-woman said" -- This changes everything, then. I didn't know about this. Even so, considering what Lewis said, maybe we'll have to wait for some official word, I'm afraid. -. Grillage .- 14:14, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Ben's object

Can anyone tell what Ben is holding up at the very end of the episode when he reveals he has a person on the freighter? I cant tell because it is out of focus. He appears to hold it up for them to see. --Connor401 14:00, 9 February 2008 (PST)

  • It's just Locke's gun. Andreapasotti 14:13, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Static

The episode begins with a screen of static before we see the the underwater footage. Then when Frank is watching the T.V. there is a moment of very similar static. He even hits the T.V. to draw our attention to it. I think the static at the begining is the clue that that is not a flash side-ways, like the moment at the end of season two when we see the research team that works for penny, but actually the POV of someone watching a video feed, but we do not know who. The moment with Frank is to help us pick up on this.

Minkowski can't come to the phone right now

I believe gunfire can be heard in the background of the "he can't come to the phone right now" satphone conversation. Sounds like automatic gunfire to me. I initally thought it may have been jungle background noise, but it only starts the moment the phonecall is initialised, and stops the moment the call is ended. I will say the female taking the call is remarkably calm though, for someone possibly under fire.

I suspect we may see a future episode flashback from the woman answering the phone's perspective, where some kind of siege is occuring on the ship, probably involving Ben's man on board. g00nerz 00:40, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Not sure about gunfire as I didn't hear it to be honest. However I do agree that we will probably get it from her perspective at some point. Although I don't think she was calm, she sounded very anxious. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 18:19, 9 February 2008 (PST)

No gunfire, just a native woodpecker. You can hear it briefly at 37:15 when Sayid gives a sitrep about the Huey's condition, before Miles gets the phone. Even without that evidence you can hear that the "gunfire" sounds clear while Regina's voice is distorted by the transmission. Roger 18:55, 9 February 2008 (PST)

Sounds more like a heli rotor to me... --Bagpuss 03:57, 11 February 2008 (PST)

  • I just made a (perhaps significant) connection. This conversation is a mirror of the Kate/Jack conversations with the ship over the last two episodes (Beginning of the End, Through the Looking Glass). Each time the speaker asked for Naomi, they said something to the effect that "Naomi can't come to the phone right now..."
And we all know what happened to her... --Litany42 09:48, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Gardner

The name of Miles' client was Gardner. Now this is for general appreciation. From Wikipedia:

  • "Martin Gardner is a popular American mathematics and science writer, specializing in recreational mathematics, but with interests encompassing magic (conjuring), pseudoscience, literature (especially Lewis Carroll), philosophy, and religion.
  • "During World War II, he served for several years in the U.S. Navy as a yeoman. While his primary duty was signaling by means of flags and lights, demanding superb eyesight, he was also secretary to the ship's captain and other officers.
  • "For many decades, he, his wife Charlotte, and his children lived in Hastings-on-Hudson, New York.
  • "[His interests in recreational mathematics include:] flexagons, Game of Life, the board game Hex, cryptanalysis, fractals.
  • "His book Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science (1952, revised 1957) is a classic and seminal work of the skeptical movement. It explored a myriad of dubious outlooks and projects including Fletcherism, creationism, organic farming, Charles Fort, Rudolf Steiner, Dianetics, unidentified flying objects, dowsing, extra-sensory perception, the Bates method and psychokinesis.
  • "Unusually for a senior CSICOP fellow and prominent skeptic of the paranormal, Gardner is a theist and professes belief in God, although he is critical of organized religion. Gardner has been quoted as saying that he regards parapsychology and other research into the paranormal as tantamount to "tempting God" and seeking "signs and wonders".
  • "Gardner's philosophy may be summarized as follows: There is nothing supernatural, and nothing in human reason or visible in the world to compel people to believe in God. The mystery of existence is enchanting, but a belief in The Old One comes from faith without evidence. However, with faith and prayer people can find greater happiness than without. If there is an afterlife, the loving Old One is real. "[To an atheist] the universe is the most exquisite masterpiece ever constructed by nobody", from G. K. Chesterton, is one of Martin's favorite quotes.
  • "Gardner has occasionally tried his hand at fiction of a kind always closely associated with his non-fictional preoccupations (e.g., Visitors from Oz, based on L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and stories about an imaginary numerologist named Dr. Matrix)."

And then a quote from the article "Hollow Earth", referenced in the author's article, again from Wikipedia:

  • "An article by Martin Gardner revealed that Dr.Walter Siegmeister used the pseudonym `Bernard', but not until the publishing of Walter Kafton-Minkel's Subterranean Worlds: 100,000 years of dragons, dwarfs, the dead, lost races & UFOs from inside the Earth, in 1989, did the full story of Bernard/Siegmeister become well known."

There's possibly more to be quoted. Now, IMHO, there are too many intersections with Lost's universe for a simple coincidence. -. Grillage .- 23:22, 9 February 2008 (PST)

It gets way better (and completely unrelated to everything I wrote above): "The Gardner Island hypothesis has been characterized as the most confirmed explanation for Amelia Earhart's disappearance." (source) -. Grillage .- 13:43, 11 February 2008 (PST)

not Daniel's wife

As I see it, in Dan's flashback he's already as crazy as he is on the island, so he has this lady that takes care of him. Her having a ring doesn't mean that she's married to him, it means she's married. Also note that she doesn't put her hand on his shoulder to comfort and calm him down, which is something his wife would have probably done. --CharlieReborn 08:46, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Since when is Daniel crazy?? Roger 09:23, 10 February 2008 (PST)
have you seen Kate's expression after he said "the light doesn't scatter quite right here"? also Naomi calls him a "head case".
Sorry but those examples just make him out to be quirky or eccentric. Not crazy. -- Jose 09:43, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Exactly. Hell, I was thinking the same thing when he said "the light doesn't scatter quite right here." Tehr 09:06, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • Use of the phrase 'head case' denote craziness; you would not use 'head case' to call someone 'quirky or eccentric,' you would use the exact words. Use and comprehension of correct colloquial English is key to understanding character motivations. Pixielo 16:48, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Hm.. Id love to take every single nickname Sawyer gives people seriously. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 16:51, 10 February 2008 (PST)
I don't know where you're from Pixielo, but Naomi is from Manchester and the term 'head case' could easily be used to mean quirky or ecentric, rather than suffering from mental health problems.--TechNic|talk|conts 17:03, 10 February 2008 (PST)
    • I have to agree. If there's one thing the British can do well, it's hurl insults. Naomi calling Daniel a head-case doesn't make him crazy.
  • That's a bit of a stretch. This is, after all, a show aimed at an American audience. I think it more likely they are trying to suggest that Faraday is different in some way (crazy or maybe eccentric) than expecting the average viewer to understand the subtleties of how Mancunians take the piss... --Litany42 09:57, 11 February 2008 (PST)
To someone practical like Naomi, an academic like Daniel is going to seem like a "head case". What I would take it to mean is the stereotype of the eccentric absent-minded science academic who talks over peoples heads and socially acts in unexpected ways. Dharmatel4 22:35, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • I agree wholeheartedly. But upon reflection, I think there is something definitely "different" about him -- not every physicist is able to see light scatter patterns, so I think this goes beyond eccentric. And it is fairly obvious that whatever dossier Abaddon and Naomi have on Faraday (they most certainly would have one before embarking on this "dangerous" mission), it would detail this difference. As you pointed out, the practical Naomi would likely then see Faraday as a head case.
As an aside -- anyone else see similarities between Naomi and Ana Lucia? Any significance to this? --Litany42 06:55, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Ben's Revelation

I've watched the episode twice now and one part in particular appears to be carefully worded. At the end of the episode, just after Ben has revealed who Charlotte is, he makes the following little speech:

"Your instinct was right John. These people are a threat. And if you shoot me you'll never know how great a threat they were. Because I know what they're doing here. I know what they want."

I've highlighted the words that strike me in bold. He refers to the threat in the past tense despite the present tense being used in the line before. Almost as if he knows much more than he is letting on regardless of the fact that he later reveals he has someone planted on the ship. Is this yet another time travel hint? --Jose 09:40, 10 February 2008 (PST)

  • I'm no expert in english grammar, but I think he said that after he shoots him he'll see, in the future, what a threat they are now, in the present. if anything you should notice the part he said Your instinct though he heard him say that it was taller ghost Walt (love that name (:) that warned him. --CharlieReborn 09:51, 10 February 2008 (PST)
  • I think this is just Ben's particular persuasive speech pattern, with the undertones of threat -- his flair for the dramatic (which usually creeps in when there is a kernal of truth to his larger lie). In other words, he is saying that unless Locke figures out what these people are doing, he could be dead himself, he will never know what these people are up to. And I (Ben) am the only one who has this information, the key to changing the future. Sort of mirrors the whole Charlie/Desmond thing in the Looking Glass when Desmond is about to shoot her and Charlie says "stop, we need her, she has the code". --Litany42 11:42, 10 February 2008 (PST)
  • No, if Ben really did word it that way (can't check!) it is odd. If Locke were to shoot Ben, surely he is still going to find out what a great threat the Boaties are eventually. Unless 1) They are a threat to Ben only, or 2) Ben is confident that they have been - or are in the process of being - neutralised. I think it's funny that Ben keeps teasing people with little nuggets of juicy information in an effort to stay alive. It seems to me that this is a parallel with the writers of the series who need to keep us interested enough not to switch off!--Bagpuss 04:04, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • I think it's just Ben's way of talking somewhat strangely (he's made tense changes that were unusual, but correct, in the past). Plus, if you lost the slightest bit of attentiveness while watching that part, the tense change actually makes something click in the heads of Native or non-native advanced (like me) English speakers. Personally, I love Ben's scenes when he's warning the Losties in a strong, worried tone (like in this scene, and in Through The Looking Glass, with his mythical "beginning of the end" line)

Hurley Seeing Jacob's Cabin

I don't know if it's just me but there was a shot (at 8:03-ish) when Ben gives Hurley a weird look when he realizes that Hurley just lied about seeing Jacob's cabin. Could this possibly imply that not everyone can even see the cabin?--Bstarfish101 13:10, 10 February 2008 (PST)

  • or maybe what he understood is that Jacob summoned Hurley
  • I think he's just surprised/worried that someone else found it. Ben doesn't take a visit to the cabin lightly. Merick 08:38, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Missing Scene

Maybe this scene was aired everywhere (I downloaded my copy of the episode) but there's a full scene around 18 minutes in that the summary of the episode seems to entirely leave out. In it, Karl threatens Ben when Ben says he has to talk to Alex. Ben then talks with Sawyer about how he'll never be good enough for Kate in the real world when compared to Jack. After attacking Ben for what he says, he discusses with Locke why they're even keeping Ben around to which Locke replies that they still need Ben because Ben knows information they need and because, other than his mouth, he is no harm to them. I don't know; i thought it was a great scene. It foreshadowed the last scene in two ways (the Ben being able to shoot Charlotte and the information he knows about the freighterers) and was generally well acted and even snuck in a couple jokes. Unless it just didn't air in some places, ti have no idea why it wouldn't have written up about.--Bstarfish101 13:10, 10 February 2008 (PST)

You're welcome to help edit and add that scene to the article (i'll try to get to it at some point if you can't)--CharlieReborn 14:15, 10 February 2008 (PST)
Still no sign of that scene? I don't have the file anymore, can't remember when it happened, but I also think it's too important to be left aside. -. Grillage .- 13:04, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Charlotte

The theories page suggests Charlotte was wearing the bulletproof vest because Naomi intimated that there was danger. Are the other 3 wearing vests? Maybe she's wearing this because this happened before when they came to the island together, only last time she was shot by Ben. So this time she arrives wearing a vest.--Sc465 04:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I think Naomi describes Charlotte as an "anthropologist", is that right? But she seems to be more like an archeologist, digging up fossils. --HypnoSynthesis 15:41, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Archaeology is a concentration of the anthropology science. Archaeologists are anthropologists. No blooper. No conspiracy. --macosx 16:13, 10 February 2008 (PST)
If she would dig up fossils, she wouldn't be neither. She would be called a paleonthologist. She isn't digging up fossils however. To put anthropologist on par with archaologist, is a typical American approach. In Europe they are two seperate studies and professions (believe me, I should know). --Hunter61 22:08, 10 February 2008 (PST)
  • If she were digging up human fossils, she could be considered a paleoanthropologist like the Leakeys. However, this is not the case -- the bones are incidental, and it is really the collar and the Dharma logo that is the focus of her interest.
  • No, it doesn't. Anthropology is strictly the study of humans -- zoologists study zoology. However, there are many branches of anthropology. Some like try to find human ancestors, digging up bones and tracing the family tree back to when we separated from apes. Others study human culture. The only way that an anthropologist would be investigating anything to do with zoology would be in connection with human activity. For example, an anthropologist may study what types of animals a settlement kept (cows, pigs, horses, etc.). They don't study the animals themselves. In this case, we know that Charlotte is an anthropologist, and that she is interested in the polar bear skeleton -- or more specifically, its collar. This leads me to believe that Charlotte is studying the Dharma Initiative, or at least something that is directly connected with the Dharma Initiative. --Litany42 16:26, 12 February 2008 (PST)

Young Ecko's picture

Did anyone notice that the picture of the boy in the "Gardner" home vistited by Miles is the young Ecko?

  • Doesn't look like him to me...there have been comparisons of the two on other websites, and it's clearly not the same kid actor. --Minderbinder 09:21, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • You may have noticed the couple dozen other posts, and two full sections of this page, that covered this issue. Next time you might want to do a quick search of the page, or give the users here a little more credit, before you ask if anyone noticed something. Kgun5 11:25, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Height

I'm not sure, as I can't watch the episode on this computer (I'm stuck to downloading them on this crappy replacement computer, while the guys I borrowed it from are fixing my normal computer, then putting the episode on a pen drive and watching it at an internet café), but I believe that the helicopter didn't have much altitude at the time the Freighties jumped. The safe height for using a parachute is several hundred meters (not an expert talking here, but just something I heard about somewhere). Am I reading into it too much? Could someone with the episode confirm?--Ainulindale 09:47, 11 February 2008 (PST)

I agree, it seemed quite low, and after watching it a couple times, I can't say with any degree of certainty whether or not it was "too" low. For an inexperienced chutist, as Daniel would have been, it seems a little unbelievable...ProjectHate 17:22, 11 February 2008 (PST)
I'd say it is probably just a prop error, and note some attempt to give us a clue. -- --  >: BLEF    16:33, 11 February 2008 (PST)
I was going to make an edit to point that out. The other option is that it was an intentional mistake, as in them purposely showing trees and stuff to give viewers a greater sense of emergency--Ainulindale 16:37, 11 February 2008 (PST)
After rewatching this episode, I'm going to say, with my limited knowledge of low altitude jumps that this was an improbable jump to make from that height and come out unscathed. Then again, wasn't the crash the same thing for nearly all the survivors?ProjectHate 17:22, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • Base jumping is done from low attitude. They were within a jumpable height. While you wouldn't jump off a building in bad weather(getting blown back into it) there were no other obstructions they had to clear other than trees and that was during landing. The germans kicked people out of planes around 80 feet. There was no time to pull a reserve if the main failed to open properly at this height.
  • Parachutes are designed in several different ways. Faster openings, better maneuverability, and for faster/slower descents. An assault chute would open more quickly since you would not want to deploy the canopy and be a slow moving target in the air for any longer then need be. Those that hit in trees could have easily had the speed and force of impact eaten up by crashing through small limbs or the branches fowling the chute or lines. If the chute was to rip or tear the force required would consume some of the velocity of impact. The distance they landed from each other is more interesting since at that height they couldn't track any distance.

Ben's man on the freighter

I had a thought that this "spy" of Ben's among the freighter crew could be Michael. He might not even KNOW he's Ben's operative. Michael and Walt left the island on a little boat, and we don't see them again until Walt's mysterious reappearance at the Dharma pit. Michael's boat could've been picked up by the freighter, and both could be aboard. Ben could've manipulated it ahead of time, knowing that Michael would be on the boat, he could even have given him other instructions once that happened. Michael could be under Ben's influence a number of ways, maybe post-hypnotic suggestion or something like that, or the Others could be monitoring things on the boat somehow THROUGH Michael, hidden-camera style. Not to suggest that he is actually wearing a hidden camera, but the Others may have some sort of "metaphysical" way of seeing what he sees. A possibility. Sithboy 14:38, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Very good theory, except for the fact that Ben needs to have some sort of way of communicating safely to Michael on the boat. He really isn't an inside man because now he has no one to report to. And I'm sure telling Team Locke that it's their friend Michael will not have much sway, given what he's done to them.--Ainulindale 16:28, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Speaking of communicating with Ben, I thought that maybe Walt could communicate by his projections to Ben. Although it would seem like Walt would not be a willing helper for Ben. Maybe if Micheal is in danger, then Walt would communicate to help Micheal out. -- Platypus 22:59, 11 February 2008 (PST)

Richard Alpert/Remaining Others

I don't recall specifically how many were left after Tom and the "ten best" left for the Losties' beach, but why haven't we heard from them yet? I imagine that they might be scouring the island looking for Ben, and while they might not have shown themselves to Locke/Jack's groups yet, I think it would be another little twist to hear from them... ProjectHate 14:45, 11 February 2008 (PST)

At the end of season 3, Richard was taking them to the temple (whatever that is) as per Ben's instructions. I doubt they will be seen again until they decide to reveal something about the temple. There are also logistical problems. Richard Apert isn't really available (because of his series) and most of the then-named others have been killed off. Its also only been a day or so on the Island. Dharmatel4 14:53, 11 February 2008 (PST)
Thanks, didn't realize he was shooting another series and I had forgotten about the temple trek.
Nestor Carbonell (Richard) plays one of the main characters in the new series Cane (I think it's by CBS there in the US). -. Grillage .- 22:57, 11 February 2008 (PST)
Before the writer's strike, Cane wasn't doing well in the ratings and wasn't picked up beyond what episodes had already aired. It wasn't officially cancelled, either, so it's still up in the air. But the general consensus of the bloggers is that it won't be back, which would leave Nestor Carbonell free for the last five episodes they're supposed to complete this year.--Stripes 10:55, 13 February 2008 (PST)
To help clarify, I believe Cane will return next season. That leaves Richard Alpert available for Season 4 episodes 9 - 13 (he would have already filmed 1 - 8 if he were available) and he can still return to Cane next season.Wikistoriographer 09:15, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Lightning

This is pretty small, but I had to ask, even if only for my own use. Does the word "lightning" work like "shrimp" or "information", in which you don't use "a" before them? Parts of the article had it written as "a lightning" and someone else corrected it as "a typo". Thanks. -. Grillage .- 22:54, 11 February 2008 (PST)

"a" is used for a single item. "I would like a shrimp on my salad." "lightning" as a noun is often considered plural. "Lightning caused the cancellation of the golf game." If referring to a singular form of lightning, "lightning" is often used as an adjective to describe the single bolt of lightning. "A lightning bolt struck the helicopter." "Lightning struck the helicopter" is also okay. "A lightning struck the helicopter" sounds too awkward. -- Platypus 23:11, 11 February 2008 (PST)
  • Singular would be more properly stated as " a lightning strike". Although sky to sky(unlike sky to ground) lightning technically doesn't strike anything.

"Michael does not appear"

I realize that the actor who plays Michael is listed in the credits yet does not appear on camera. It still bugs me to place this under Production notes trivia. Of course he doesn't appear. As far as the *story* has revealed, he's nowhere near the island. Whatever knowledge we the viewer have from outside sources doesn't change the fact. Its similar to saying Shannon didn't appear after her death, even though she was still listed. I dunno. Something just bugs me about it. Any thoughts? AmberA 21:13, 13 February 2008 (PST)

  • I think it's important to say it. As far as we've seen on the credits, Michael is a regular cast member. It's certainly a fact worth noting if a regular does not appear in an episode. Never mind that, we know Michael's coming back, and it's significant that they're making us wait.--bq 21:42, 13 February 2008 (PST)
    • I guess I see that point, but he's not missing in quite the same way that Sun, Jin, and Desmond are... it might be better to keep him as a second note "while x actor is listed in the main cast, he has not been seen on the island," or SOMEthing to that effect.
    • The fact that we are willing to list anyone's absense means we ought to list everyone's absense. Certainly there is no argument to be made that Sun's absense from an episode means anything to the mythos/plot/whateva. A credited character that doesn't appear gets notation (we can argue about dead Shannons on another page). Wikistoriographer 09:05, 19 February 2008 (PST)

Naomi / Widmore

When Naomi complained that her "team" did not have "military training" to prepare them for the island, it instantly reminded me of the conversation / job interview when Charles Widmore asked Desmond if he had any "military experience" on his cv. Is that perhaps meant as a subtle clue that Naomi is working for Charles Widmore? That would help to explain why she was carrying a photo of Desmond, etc. By implication, that would suggest that Charles Widmore is associated with (employs?) Matthew Abbadon and perhaps owns the freighter. It's not Penny's boat, it's her father's? Does Charles Widmore seem like he's struggling to get people with military traiing onto the island? The hot air balloon was sponsored by the Widmore Corporation, could that have been a previously failed attempt to get someone on the island to capture Ben? (Perhaps giving Ben a legitimate reason to kill Henry Gale.) HypnoSynthesis 16:49, 14 February 2008 (PST)

    • I'm with you. I've suspected that Widmore was the man behind the curtain ever since the S2 finale. Desmond's book was called "Our Mutual Friend." I always thought that was a clue that all the 815 survivors had one person in common, Charles Widmore. I doubt he would have sent Desmond to the Island if he'd had military experience. Desmond was banished to the island to keep him away from Penny. This is all gut feelings and speculation on my part, but it seems to fit the available facts.--bq 17:05, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Enhanced Version?

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but are they doing enhanced versions of the episodes before the new episodes now? Watching this one on tv right now and it's been showing the trivia, etc. at the bottom of the screen like the Through the Looking GLass enhanced episode. Really I don't see the point, other than to help REALLY new viewers, but I guess it's kind of neat.--HaloOfTheSun 17:24, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Instead of Various on the top should we list it as Freighters

On the "Other 48 Days" episode it is listed as the Tailes flashback on the top part of the page, should we still leave it as various or change it to Freighters, even though there are more than just those five on the freighter, just my opinion, I may be wrong.

I don't like the shorthand "Freighters"--sounds as if we're talking about boats. On the enhanced reruns of the show they've been called the "freighter team", and that's what we've been calling them on Lostpedia. Robert K S 12:41, 22 February 2008 (PST)
Should we change it to something different that various, because there is a page that we can link to for them; http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Freighter
I think it should be changed to either Freighters or Freighter team. "Various" is definitely too general. Lindsaynickel 03:49, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Turn of the Screw reference

I read The Turn of the Screw over the weekend, and found it interesting that one of the main characters that communicates with a ghost is named Miles. It's mentioned on the Lostpedia page for the book that there's a character by that name, but it wasn't on this episode page, so I added it. The dead people in the story actually reminded me more of appearances by such characters as Jack's father and Ben's mother, but I thought the communication with the dead was enough of a reference to note on this page. Lindsaynickel 03:48, 4 March 2008 (PST)

Disappointed

I was very disappointed, when in this episode, Locke asks Ben "what is the monster? the smoke?" and Ben looks genuinely surprised, as he really doesn't know what Locke is talking about, and says "I don't know." Is it possible that Ben, having been living so long on the Island, having been the leader of the Others, and having been apparently the only one who can talk to Jacob, does not know what the monster/the smoke is? If the Others can't reveal some of these mysteries... how will the creators of the series reveal them? (and when?!) --Salvora 09:02, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

Ben is a liar. That's something we've known since he tried to pass himself off as Henry Gale. Either he's simply lying, or he's answering the question put to him truthfully but concealing the fact that he knows quite a lot about the monster even if he doesn't know what it is. Bagpuss 01:39, 26 March 2008 (PDT)

Foreshadowing -Maybe spoilers

I think this is foreshadowing: when Locke yells at Sawyer about how awful it would be to 'execute Ben right in front of his daughter'. Because a few episodes later, Ben's daughter is executed right in front of Ben.

Can somebody think up a way to write up this point that isn't a spoiler but gets this message across? 73rd survivor 08:39, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

It's not a spoiler since "The Shape of Things to Come" has already aired. Feel free to add it. :)  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:48, 1 June 2008 (PDT)

Translation of the French

Can someone translate what is being said in french in the scene with Charlotte in Tunisia? Or is what her "friend" is saying really what the guy is saying in french? Because there have been instances where non english words are being spoken and not translated are important, example in D.O.C. where Sun walks into the office to speak with her dad you hear him arguing with his employees and it was translated into something about the Hanso Foundation. Please can some one shed some light on this. --Deuce Dubbington XVII 06:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Centricity in the text box

Do we really need to note that the centric characters are the science team, when we have already listed them in the "flashback" field!? It seems redundant...especially since Frank is a pilot with the crew, and not technically a member of the science team, so it's not even accurate. --Golden Monkey 19:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a cool idea about a flashback from a dead person. Yuo're in the serie dead and you could have a flashback. Awesome.--Station7 21:02, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Main Image

I would like to propose a new main image for this episode. We have always gone with an image of multiple characters in the past if it is multi centric episode where possible and I feel that we should do the same here. While Daniel, Miles and Charlotte never appear in person together in this episode there is a breif moment about 35 minutes in where the photographs of all three appear on screen together (during the Naomi flashback). I'm not sure how to get screencap of the episodes so if someone else can then people would be able to see what I mean and make an educated decision on the proposed change. Mhtmghnd 03:00, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

That's really the only option if we want to showcase as many of the centric characters as possible, which we should. Plus Daniel, Charlotte and Miles were all regulars during season 4 while Frank and Naomi were not-so it makes sense that they'd get the image. --Golden Monkey 03:14, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
Glad someone agrees. If only the image already existed on this site. Mhtmghnd 03:20, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
I remeber seeing one but it was absolutely horible, we shouldnt sacrafice quality too much just to get all the centric characters on the pic. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:29, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
4x02 chopper N842M
True. Maybe someone can get a better quality one than the one you saw though. Alternatively I would be happy with a picture of the helicopter which would imply the centricity of its passengers. Mhtmghnd 03:37, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
No, way people always say it has to be of centric characters, so by those standards a heli is out of the question. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  01:19, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
Agreed the heli is out. We should have as many centrics as we can so that means the 3 photographs idea is best, but it will need to be a high resolution image. Menot 02:42, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting support We need all three of them in there. Rachel P 08:43, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting supportHere's a shot of the photos --- Balk Of Fametalk 02:02, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

HeadcaseGhostWhispererAnthro

  • Looks good to me Mhtmghnd 00:23, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose that is truly awful. Revert pls    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   15:22, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose - Yes, it looks horrible. You can only see Miles. Charlotte and Daniel are cut off. I didn't have a problem with the previous picture, but if we insist on a change (not sure why every feels the need to dispute long standing images this season) then the helicopter image is great. It's a "Science team" centric, right? Well, the one thing which symbolises the entire science team in the episode is the helicopter.--Baker1000 15:57, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
Pictogram voting oppose Wow. Didn't realise how bad that would look. I would like to revise my vote to the heli. If we can't have them all in a decent image we need to use an image that symbolises them all. It is a multicentric so I'd prefer some other image to that of just one character which is misleading. The heli would not make anyone think it was just Daniel centric and represents all centric characters (and no one else) as well as the episode themeatically. I would still prefer a good shot of them all together but since that is impossible the heli is best (it's a nice image too). Menot 04:50, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
  • Okay, while fully acknowledging that this is probably a terrible idea, I'm just going to throw it out there anyways. In "Jughead" at timecode 5:55, there's a generic shot of Miles, Daniel and Charlotte against a jungle background. We could potentially take a screencap of that, since there's nothing in it that screams "THIS IS A DIFFERENT EPISODE". If you really badly need a picture of the science team, this might be the best way to go about it. You may now proceed to yelling at me. :P  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  06:12, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but it does set a very, very, nasty precedent. It would seem to be a viable alternative to the chopper (which is also a good choice) though. LeoChris 06:52, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not thrilled about the idea but if it's a suitable enough image then maybe. Can we see the image before we put it to a vote. I would hate for people to change their minds again as they did with the 3 photos. I still like the heli idea too. Mhtmghnd 13:05, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
No to the wrong episode. The photos do look worse than expected so I'm yeah let's go with the heli. Just Dan is misleading. Rachel P 02:45, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
  • Ok if a screencap from another episode gets used then this officialy has gone to hell, realy, realy a screencap from another episode just so we can have the stupid "all centric characters" worst idea ive heard in a long time. The main pics are supposed to represent the episode so a pic from Jughead, cmon. I cant believe this has even been suggested let alone people have agreed with it. You know what why dont we just crop all the characters in one image, and we'll just take the best images of each character throughout the series and use that for their centric episodes. (sarcasm) I seriously cannot believe how ridiculous these images discussions have gotten, oh in case you didnt know i DO NOT agree with using a screencap from another episode. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:36, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
    • Cygan84 is absolutely right. that is a completely hairbrained idea. The centric characters idea is nearly as stupid. Lets try and represent the Episode with the most powerful shot we can find. This centric character thing is out of hand. The Daniel shot is fine. He is crucial to the whole season, it's a strong image and its not a bloody helicopter. Give me a break!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   04:19, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm against Jughead idea. This page is about this episode and having another episode's image is not appropriate. The 3 photo's idea might have worked if it were a decent image but it's not. So it's down to Daniel and Heli for me. Since the other multicentrics on the site have used all the centrics where possible (not here) or something else sybolic of the episode and it's centrics, I am leaning towards the heli. I don't think a multicentric should have a single character as it's main image.

So I'll just do a quick tally on everyone's preferences. Where people like more than one I have listed them twice.

Daniel (current): baker1000, czygan84, charles kane (3)
Heli: baker1000, menot, leo chris, mhtmghnd, rachel p, limitlessness (6)
3 photos: golden monkey (1)
Jughead: jimbo the tubby, leo chris (2)

That's a win for the heli. I'm changing it. Limitlessness 03:18, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

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