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Will this be the season finale or is it just the last episode they have listed?--Chestnutters 07:56, 28 March 2007 (PDT)Calvin

I've heard that the season finale will be someone else's flashback episode. Have to do some digging to see what the name of it is thought, so I'm not sure.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   07:59, 28 March 2007 (PDT)
No this is not the finale, episode 22 is the finale. --Lewis-Talk-Contribs 09:13, 28 March 2007 (PDT)


Wikipedia states that this episode's flashbacks feature Desmond. Their source is the ABC schedule for April. Froglars 09:34, 28 March 2007 (PDT)

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I noticed that "catch-22" is the 17th episode, while "enter 77" is the 11th; do you think is there any number trick here? Let's see what's the title for the 22th episode... --Pongi 10:42, 28 April 2007 (PDT)

Press release

“Catch-22” – Desmond coaxes Charlie, Hurley and Jin on a trek across the jungle after experiencing one of his future-prophesizing “flashes” -- but is he purposely placing Charlie’s life in harm’s way? Meanwhile, Kate turns to an unwitting Sawyer after seeing Jack alone with Juliet, on “Lost,” WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18 (10:00-11:00 p.m., ET), on the ABC Television Network.

“Lost” stars Naveen Andrews as Sayid, Henry Ian Cusick as Desmond, Emilie de Ravin as Claire, Michael Emerson as Ben, Matthew Fox as Jack, Jorge Garcia as Hurley, Josh Holloway as Sawyer, Daniel Dae Kim as Jin, Yunjin Kim as Sun, Evangeline Lilly as Kate, Elizabeth Mitchell as Juliet, Dominic Monaghan as Charlie and Terry O’Quinn as Locke.

Guest starring are Sonia Walger as Penny Widmore, Jack Maxwell as Derek, Joanna Bool as Ruth, Andrew Connolly as Brother Campbell, Andrew Trask as older monk and Marsha Thomason as parachutist.

“Catch-22” was written by Jeff Pinkner & Brian K. Vaughan and directed by Stephen Williams. ShadowUltra 11:07, 2 April 2007 (PDT)

Trivia - "Catch 22" song sung by P!nk (am new to this so don't know whether I put this in the right place)

Parachutist -> Naomi

The "parachutist" needs to be changed to Naomi per the revised press release from ABCMedianet. ShadowUltra 18:27, 3 April 2007 (PDT)

Here's the URL for the revised Press Release. http://abcmedianet.com/assets/pr%5Chtml/040307_19.html Could someone put it into article? JoserKyind 20:15, 3 April 2007 (PDT)

Someone posted that Desmond saw Penny's face as the parachutist. I don't remember this. I only saw the body hanging behind her helmet in the flashes and Desmond merely thought it was Penny from all the clues. Can someone verify this and if not have this line revised? --Lucky Day 19:25, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

He saw the parachutists body, and he saw the photo of him and Penny, and it also seems like he saw himself and Penny reuniting in front of a green background. It was natural for him to assume that meant the parachutist was Penny, but his assumption turned out to be mistaken, and at no time did he actually see Penny in the parachutist suit. --Jackdavinci 21:02, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Rerun

  • Apparently, according to the ABC schedule, they are showing a repeat of "Catch-22" before "D.O.C." runs. --Marik7772003 10:43, 4 April 2007 (PDT)
not true, 16 episodes in a row, no repeats... --mo-- (Talk | Saa ) 18:19, 15 April 2007 (PDT)
It is true. He does not mean we are getting a week without a new episode. Catch-22 is airing at 9:00pm and DOC at 10:00pm. This is going to be happening for it looks like the rest of the season now as ABC can't find anything to fill the 9:00 time slot.-Mr.Leaf 19:21, 15 April 2007 (PDT)
ohhh I get it,, ok that sounds reasonable, I think ABC did that in "Not in Portland" and the episode after that, not everybody saw the episode after the hiatus so guess they showed it again... --mo-- (Talk | Saa ) 20:51, 15 April 2007 (PDT)

Desmond flashback

Seems a bit obvious, with Penny showing up in the credits. XSG 12:13, 7 April 2007 (PDT)

Not necessarily, Cassidy showed up in Kate's FB...Christian in Claire... never assume. Besides we have to wait until its officially confirmed. -Mr.Leaf 13:27, 7 April 2007 (PDT)
I personally think, as people look to us for confirmation, we should start putting on the episode infobox (but not the Season3nav of course), "unconfirmed (possibly Desmond), if there is reasonable evidence. For DOC, Daniel Dae Kim has confirmed its his flashback, but we don't allow actor confirmation to count. In cases like that, I think its OK to be slightly pre-emptive, as all the other sites post the name and are 99% of the time correct, and it makes Lostpedia look like its lagging. If we're wrong that 1% of the time, we've got the possibly bit to cover. --Nickb123 (Talk) 04:50, 9 April 2007 (PDT)

Ditto. (Isolation815 17:50, 10 April 2007 (PDT)) It is a Desmond episode, based on today's podcast

Well it is Desmond, it got confirmed in the 16/04/07 podcast. I agree with the "Unconformed (possibly Desmond)" idea, 'cause people do look here for at least who it possibly will be random2502 23:53, 17 April 2007 (PDT)

New promo material

Here's the new promotional material released last week. Anyone want to change the placeholder image to this? I'm SO glad we have some decent season three pics with the full cast. (Isolation815 17:50, 10 April 2007 (PDT))

Sea3casta
Yes, we've decided to stick with the current beach promo shot as opposed to this one. -Mr.Leaf 19:13, 12 April 2007 (PDT)
LOL! The sun is in like ten different places in the sky, depending on which castaway you look at. Nice work for a fake, but it's just a little too off. ...actually... all their legs are wet. If it is a fake it's a good attempt. I would think though if this was real they'd all be grabbing on to each other or flailing their arms about trying to keep their balance from the waves. -- ZachsMind
My professional opinion: for the photo, they were standing in water, but not at that beach. They were cut from the pool they were photographed in, and pasted onto that beach. Like others have said, none of the lighting's right. JoelVanAtta 06:26, 16 April 2007 (PDT)

The lighting on Desmond is odd, either fake this is a fake or its being reflected onto him by something.--HeWhoLaughsLast 22:33, 14 April 2007 (PDT)

Found this on the Lost-Media galleries, but a thumbnail version DOES show up on the ABC medianet photo page for lost... so I'm assuming that if it's photoshopped than it's at least photoshopped by The Powers That Be. (Isolation815 21:00, 15 April 2007 (PDT))

That could very well be true, however IMHO as well as a couple of the other Sysops, this image doesn't look nearly as good as the early season 3 beach promo image. -Mr.Leaf 09:36, 16 April 2007 (PDT)

Sayid

When's Sayid going to go all Rambo on their asses? Is there a betting pool? Sloisel 17:43, 13 April 2007 (PDT) Sayid should be running that camp. (Isolation815 21:00, 15 April 2007 (PDT))

  • Sayid certainly is very insightful, I'm sure if (or when) they find out that Juliet is not on their side he will be left to run the camp. --Jazza 04:42, 16 April 2007 (PDT)
Sayid is a coward. In his big chance at showing some leadership, he let Locke walk all over him and then let Kate rush him into an ambush. Sayid is probably the smartest and most level headed of any of them, but until he stands up for himself he is always going to be a follower. Dharmatel4 20:35, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
Sayid let's Locke get away with what he does because he sees him the only one that can gives them a chance to survive.--Lucky Day 19:11, 1 May 2007 (PDT)

Song from promo spots

Does anyone know the name of that operatic/classical song that's been playing in the promo TV spots all week for this episode? I definitely recognize it from a lot of other things, but am never able to place it. Thanks! Gabefarkas 13:33, 15 April 2007 (PDT)

It's from "Requiem for a Dream", though it's used excessively in trailers. --Sauron18 20:33, 15 April 2007 (PDT)
Thank you so much! (Isolation815 21:00, 15 April 2007 (PDT))
Yeah, it's based on Clint Mansell's "Requiem for a Dream" score. The original song, I believe, is called "Lux Aeterna." What you hear in the promo spots (and those countless trailers Sauron18 mentioned) is actually a remixed version that makes it sound a little more dramatic. Not sure if that version has ever been released anywhere. --Compossible 23:26, 16 April 2007 (PDT)
Thanks! I wonder if there's any significance there, or if I'm just grasping at straws. Also, this might seem completely random, but there's another really dramatic song that's used a lot in promos and stuff like that, but I think it's actually a classical piece. Does anyone know where I can find more info about classical songs that are used like that? Gabefarkas 06:57, 17 April 2007 (PDT)

The girl

someone needs to get a picture of her and make an article. i wonder who they hell she was, because it wasn't Penny... dposse 20:24, 18 April 2007 (PDT)

  • Her name is Naomi. She's had an article since her name was announced in the guest list. ShadowUltra 20:26, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • If I had to wager, I'd guess that this was Desmond's daughter.--paulski 12:10, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Unlikely, as she seems about the same age. I guess she is one of Penny's search team--Phil (talk) 12:11, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
      • She looked younger to me, and this would start to set-up some of the temporal oddties that I think will be revealed as the show proceeds.

Worst Episode Ever?

What did people think of this one?

They are running out of time to do something with Charlie. Given the upcoming schedule, if he dies it seems like its going to be a minor footnote. It seems like at this point in the season they should be building to something rather than streching things out. And I think should have moved some more of the Naomi stuff from the next episode into this episode. It looks like they are going to have two plots fighting with each other next week. Dharmatel4 20:43, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I hardly think it was the "worst episode ever", but everybody is entitled to their own opinion! As far as the Charlie situation goes, why wouldn't it be a good idea if he is going to bite the big one to have it happen during the finale episodes of this season? Frankie Viturello 21:09, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I was upset that they seemed to have lost all the momentum from the last few episodes in terms of Juliet and Sayid. They had things going for them, and in this episode they seemed to be non-existent. I would have liked to see more time spent on getting dabbles of everyone. Or maybe everyone notices the helicopter crash, and EVERYONE goes into the jungle to see what is going on, What was awesome about One Of Us was a classic arguement when everyone got a word in.
    • Yeah, it was tough to follow One Of Us, that was easily in the top 3 ep's this season, in writing, acting, and the amount of information it revealed. The momentum may have been slowed, but I'm sure it's about to pick right up again. Frankie Viturello 21:34, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I thought this episode was great. It's flashback was a bit boring, but it was very suspenseful. Even though I knew Charlie would live ("Greatest Hits"), it was good enough to make me wonder constantly if he would die. Also, the new Naomi plotline could be interesting. - Kmann108 21:38, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I love how people dish out the "worst episode ever" line every time they don't like an episode. This clearly wasn't a bad episode, it turned from the story arc carried in the last few episodes, but thats so we have a good finale! Not to mention there are other important characters in the show...the fact that someone actually found the island is awesome. This was a good episode but a great lead in to next week.


Flashes...interesting stuff

I noticed A TON of seemingly non-coincidental references (especially at 48 and 58 minutes in-ish) when someone would say the word flash or flashes and a sun flare or beam of light would shine on the camera. I first noticed it when Hurley was talking to Charlie and he said, "Hey I'm not the Flash." And then BAM right there top tight of the screen a pretty obvious flash appeared. It also happened when Desmond admitted to Charlie that he knew he was going to "die". Go check it out for yourself. Not sure of the significance but it's interesting enough. --Freebert 20:35, 18 April 2007 (PDT)

Also, Nick, removal was not called for...I had a screencap up and I SPECIFICALLY requested that admins could move it/change it as they will but to suggest I didn't have evidence is simply not true. I'm putting the pic up here again and you guys/admins/whatever can do what you like with it. --Freebert 20:17, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

HurleyFlash

Ms. Hawking

Did anybody else notice Ms. Hawking in this episode? I apologize for not having a screencap, but when Desmond was returning his clothes to Br. Campbell, there was an interesting picture on his desk that is visible when Desmond is placing the clothes on the desk. I can swear that it's a picture of Ms. Hawking and Brother Campbell...can anybody confirm? uNp0c0L0c0 20:57, 18 April 2007 (PDT)

  • I definitely saw it. It had that same wonderful "photoshopped" quality that most photos on LOST have ... how this will play out with so few episodes left this season (or if it will at all, it could just be a neat easter egg) will be a good wait and see. Frankie Viturello 21:07, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Yeah, they didn't try all that hard with the photo... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Turniphead Danny (talkcontribs) .
      • I think the shoddiness of it shows that many of the character connections aren't significant. Somebody just thought, "Let's have a photo of Br.Campbell with... errrrrrr... Charlie? No. Widmore? Nah. Yemi? Hmmm. I know, Ms. Hawking. Hey, you there, boy, run along and.." Burt Gummer
  • I saw it too. But here is another interesting thing - I think that Ms. Hawking blinks her right eye on that picture. Anybody with HDTV quality who could confirm? --orzi 21:18, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
  • The picture is only on for a few seconds, but I didn't notice it blink.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 21:41, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Maybe it's just a video compression artefact. --orzi 21:49, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Using VirtualDub, I can clearly see the eye blink too. I'll try and find a HDTV version to confirm.Terryjb 16:20, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

The picture could possibly be a part of the film that was destroyed in the airport, and it had to be reshot. Possibly the actress who portrays Ms. Hawing was unavailable and they had to photoshop the picture--Phil (talk) 12:24, 1 May 2007 (PDT)

Pipe

Is this pipe coming from the wire on the beach?... seems like a pipe though.. 90 degree anlgle, straight down. Any thoughts?
Pipe
congested 22:13, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
It looks like a tree root to me.    Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 07:00, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
A pretty straight and weirdly angled tree root though. It hadn't been noticed by the characters so I doubt that it was significant. Roger 14:52, 2 May 2007 (PDT)

flashback

Was anyone else surprised at the flashback? For some reason I was under the impression this flashback would be about his time in the military. --Jackdavinci 23:45, 18 April 2007 (PDT)

So did I. At first, I though it waso nly going to explain why he says "Brother". But then he met Penny, and then it became significant. But it broke Desmond's "awesome flashback" saga. --Blueeagleislander 01:35, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Well if they did the military one now, then we'd have nothing new to look forward to in Season 4, he would just have boring flashbacks we're not interested in like Kate. Sometimes you have to save the good stuff for last, otherwise everyone will be whining later.

It was kind of obvious it would be about him being a monk since one of the guests was "Brother Campbell."—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AlmightySal (talkcontribs) .

flashes oddities

  • Do we see Charlie in the flash helping with the parachute before and/or after he is saved?
    • We can definitely see Charlie holding the parachute to break Naomis fall after he is supposedly killed in the flashback. His holding the parachute is either erroneus, or him surviving was how things were _meant_ to pan out, perhaps.Terryjb 16:25, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
  • We do see Penny and Desmond embracing in his flash right?
    • We see Penny & Desmond embracing before the photo is taken in front of the backdrop, but not on the island --RyanBrynna 09:24, 22 April 2007 (PDT)

Enquiring minds....--Jackdavinci 02:47, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Timeline clues

Some timeline clues in this episode... --Jackdavinci 00:38, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • Flashback
    • The wine says 1995.
    • Ruth mentions Desmond's excitement over Celtic winning the cup, which also happened in 1995 (specific date anyone?)
    • Desmond's visit to Ruth and expulsion from the monastery must happen soon after Derek's visit as he still has a bandage on his nose in the rest of his flashback scenes.
    • Ruth says she and Desmond dated six years before he disappeared one week before their wedding date
  • Jungle mission
    • Day 1 light - Desmond, Charlie, Jin, and Hurley go to the cable and set up camp.
    • Day 1 dark - "2 hours before first light" Jin tells stories and they see the helicopter crash. (so really early morning day 2)
    • Day 2 light - They find the backpack. Desmond saves Charlie. They split up and find Naomi.
  • Beach camp
    • Day 1 light - Sawyer hits on Kate. Sawyer's nickname ban is *still in effect*
    • Day 1 dark - Kate flirts with Jack, Jack flirts with Juliet, Kate seduces Sawyer.
    • Day 2 light - Sawyer vs Jack in ping pong. Sawyer give Kate mix tape and calls her on her shit.
  • Celtic won the cup (called the Scottish Cup) May 27 1995 Source--Kivipat
    • Are we sure that the cup reference isn't to the Celtic 88 or 89 win? If Desmond is already in the monastery in 1995, how long had he been there?--User:Nsps
    • I think he had a one month vow of silence, then he was found by Derek and left shortly after that. So it depends on how quickly Derek found him. Desmond and Ruth dated six years so yeah maybe it was 89, and this episode was earlier in 1995 than May. --Jackdavinci 07:34, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Korean

  • Does anyone have a translation for what Jin says, especially the story? --Jackdavinci 01:06, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
  • It'd be good if everything Jin and Sun had said in Korean was on the wiki.--Blueeagleislander 01:35, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I don't know Korean at all, but from intonation, pacing, setting, and gestures, I'd guess it was a Korean version of the classic campfire story/urban legend - "The Hook" [1] --Doc 12:32, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
  • Translation 1:
(girl) "Thank God. I was frightened you’d left because I double-crossed you."
(narrator) After hearing this, the man smiled and said,
(man) "Don’t worry, dear girl. My hook is still... IN YOUR FATHER'S HEAD!" --dkim68 01:13, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
  • Translation 2:
(narrator) And the girl turned to the man who saved her and said,
(girl) "Thank God. I was afraid you were the Hook Man."
(narrator) And the man looked at the girl with a smile and said,
(man) "Don't worry, little girl. My hook is... STILL IN YOUR FATHER'S HEAD!" (Source: DDK@Myspace)

"Jamaican woman"? & parachutist credit

How was the idea that Naomi is Jamaican formed from her uttering one word ("Desmond...")? Not to mention the fact that she had a Portuguese-language book with her. I would remove that bit, but there's always a chance that I somehow missed something. --Invertebrat 02:47, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • I'm fine with removing any mention of her race. I had originally written it as "black woman" and someone changed it to "hispanic". I looked on the actress page which lists her as Jamaican/English so I changed it to Jamaican since it doesn't really fit into either black or hispanic definitively. But really her race is not important to the article, and the charcter may be a different race than the actress anyway so I think it's best to just leave her as "woman" without mentioning race. --Jackdavinci 03:33, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
  • On another note, someone erased mention of her actual name from the article as being a spoiler, I suppose because her name wasn't mentioned in this episode. However, I thought our policy in terms of the info box was to list characters *exactly* as they are credited. Although originally credited as "parachutist" I thought it was changed to "Naomi". Can anyone confirm or refute this, as well as clarify what the info box policy is? --Jackdavinci 03:33, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
    • Considering that every reference to parachutist links to the Naomi article, I dont understand whats being protected as far as spoilers go. Dharmatel4 09:26, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
This topic has been debunked. Shall we kill this topic? --Victorcoutin 12:14, 27 April 2007 (PDT)

The island CAN be found.

"With enough money and determination". Burt Gummer 06:55, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Yeah, but it seems that the only safe way is to use a sub. Anything airborne will result in a crash. dposse 07:29, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Its not certain that the sub is actually used to get on/off the island. Juliet being kept asleep during the entire trip is very suspicious. Dharmatel4 09:24, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Very good point Dharmatel. It is possible, and even highly likely, that the sub is a ruse. Ben and the upper echelon of the Others could use it to control those on the island by saying that it is the only way on/off the island.
That's possible, but unlikely, in my opinion. So far, we've seen two aircraft crash because of the island's magnetic field. The sub, however, seems to be unaffected. dposse 12:22, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Possibly the Magnetic field only meets the water's surface, and down not pass beneath it, leaving people free to go, as long as it is under the water User:RedStarRevolution
Mind you, we've never seen the sub actually move. Juliet wakes up once it's already "arrived", and Locke blows it up before it gets a chance to move. AnyGould 13:08, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
This has been covered extensively in the discussion section for submarine. It's pretty well established that the Others have (or at least had) an operational submarine.--Eyeful Tower 14:28, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Of course the island can be found by air... You forget that the food drop occured during the lockdown in the Swan station, and that it "crash" exactly near that station... How can you say that anything airborne results in a crash, when, in a crash, the direction of the object is not premeditated? (The)Batmagoo(BatmanMagoo) 15:44, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Who ever said the Food Drop came from the air? It was found in the jungle, no one ever saw it drifting down from the sky. User:RedStarRevolution

If Penny can find the island, anybody can.
If Jack and Juliet had got off the island, they could have found it again, and brought rescuers.
Is this why Ben doesn't want anyone to leave the island? Maybe in the past he wasn't too bothered about people leaving, because nobody could find the island without the sub & sonar beacon. But, since the discharge, anyone can leave the island and return by themselves, possibly bringing the outside world with them?
Come on, I think this is a significant plot point. Can I stick it on the Theory page yet? I don't have many ambitions in life... Burt Gummer 14:42, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

The only reason Penny was able to find the island was the massive magnetic discharge when the Swan was destroyed. That was a one-time event. Penny has GPS coordinates for the island but there is alot about the island that is still not understood. With Penny's information, other people could find the island, but without Penny's coordinate information I dont think its any easier now. Dharmatel4 16:00, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Aye, brother. (Getting in the spirit there). But it was a one-time event 2.5 weeks ago, so the island is in the same place, rather than flitting about all over the world and in and out of our dimension. Once Penny has it's co-ordinates, anyone else can get them "With enough money and determination". The point is, even if it really was hidden so well that God, "Can't see this island any better than the rest of the world can", once it's location is known by someone, it's no longer impossible to find it.
It wasn't a one time event. The miners speaking Portuguese said something about it happening again, and we know it had happened before when they didn't press the button and it crashed the plane. So they had the chance a long time ago to get the coordinates and couldn't again until that point. My theory is the island has a magnetic field to it that can't be penetrated except by excessive electromagnetic energy. Maybe the test was not so much saving them but preventing the island from being discovered and there wasn't so much destruction to ensue from not pushing the button as turning the fail safe. Keyura 18:47, 26 April 2007 (PDT)

HALO Jump?

Was the helmet and oxygen mask fully covering Naomi's face done strictly to increase the dramatic tension of "removing the mask?" Or could Naomi's arrival and the helicopter crash be separate, or even independent events? Naomi appears to be equiped for a High Altitude, Low Openin jump. If you've got precise GPS coordinates, as may have come from the listening station at the end of Season 2, a night HALO jump is a pretty good way to put in a scout. --Eyeful Tower 08:23, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

It's a bad way to put in a scout if they use a flashing red beacon.  ;-) --Doc 12:35, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Spoilsport.;-)--Eyeful Tower 12:47, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
She could be an Other... intended to be found by the Losties... Burt Gummer

Shocker

So they find another piece of technology that can contact the outside world, and it doesn't work. Charlie summed it up perfectly. --elpaw 09:36, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Having the phone turned on by Mr. bad luck (Hurley) probably wasn't a good idea. But if it had worked, Locke would probably have come out of the jungle, attacked everyone and then smashed it. Dharmatel4 10:03, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Im betting Sayid will fix it.Voodoo 13:35, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Causality Loop

All of the events in the rescue mission are the result of Desmond's vision. This is somewhat like the vision in which Charlie drowns trying to save Claire (he would not even have known she was drowning had Desmond not run to the beach). However, in this case, Desmond actively constructs the causes of the events he sees so that the effect (rescuing who he believes to be Penny) will happen. Is this just an unavoidable time-travel paradox, or can this give us some insight into how (or if) Desmond's precognition works? --Rowsdower 10:13, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Both. dposse 12:23, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
I think it's a 'development'. Desmond may have seen Charlie drown while trying to 'rescue' a lifeless Claire (i.e. rescue her dead body). After that, he told Charlie about his visions. In Par Avion, we first saw that Charlie was convinced of the reality of Desmond's visions, then saw Claire becoming convinced by them. That brought things to a stage where Desmond could prevent Charlie's death just by telling him how to avoid it. But in the Catch-22 premonition, Desmond saw Charlie killed by the booby trap, then Charlie helps recover the parachutist. That shows that Charlie's death wasn't certain. This is a way of telling Desmond that he can't avoid the problems in his flashes in any easy way. He could have saved Charlie's life by leaving him on the beach, but for all Desmond knew maybe Charlie was the one who found the parachutist. (It was Charlie who found the Hula-doll, leading to Desmond spotting the backpack with the book and photo). That means it's pointless going looking for the parachutist without Charlie. Hence Catch-22. If I haven't explained this clearly, that's because my mind is going round in circles as much as your's is! Burt Gummer

Superman - Flash Races

The info on Superman-Flash races is incorrect. The people at "Those who rode the lightning" are experts on all matters Flash-related. http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/races.html --Mojaka 11:43, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • Another possible Flash/Superman reference going on here, although this may be a stretch... there was a plotline not too long ago in the comic books where Wally West and Lex Luthor did a "Freaky Friday" and Luthor found himself inside the body of The Flash. He went to a mirror and took off the mask, thinking finally he would know the secret identity of The Flash. However, upon looking at the face of Wally West that looked back at him in the mirror, Lex Luthor hadn't the slightest idea who the guy was - so learning the identity of the person behind the mask was useless to him. This would mimic the last moment of Catch-22, where Des removes the helmet of the parachutist expecting to see Penelope, but instead, he just gets another puzzle. The face of Naomi shouldn't bring a lightbulb over anybody's heads. -- ZachsMind 16:07, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Catch 22

I believe the article is wrong in claiming that the events of the episode constitute a Catch-22. A Catch-22 is NOT merely any paradox; it is a paradox in which no matter what you do, you lose.

The original Catch-22, from the Joseph Heller novel, comes from the efforts of pilots in World War II to get out flight duty:

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to."

So, "Penny can't find Desmond unless he shoots off a flare, but if he shoots off a flare it will set her helicopter on fire and she'll never find him"--that would be a true Catch-22.

You could argue that this episode is the opposite of a Catch-22; it seems as though, no matter what he does, Desmond is destined to set off the chain of events that will lead to him finding the parachutist.

I'm tempted to correct it on the actual page, but I've never edited a Lostpedia entry before (despite being a long-time lurker), and I want to make sure I won't step on anybody's toes.

Jacobw 13:41, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Catch-22 also refers to a situation where two outcomes depend on each other - where each is the cause and effect of the other. So I'm thinking it refers to the predestination paradox - Desmond wouldn't have gone on the mission if he hadn't seen it in the future flash. But the future flash shouldn't have happened unless he had already planned the mission. They both depend on each other for their existence. Where did the original flash or the original mission come from? --Jackdavinci 14:43, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

As above section. Desmond's premonition saw Charlie helping to recover the parachutist from the tree. Hence Charlie has to come on the mission. But if Charlie comes on the mission he will be killed by the booby trap. If he's killed by the booby trap he can't help recover the parachutist's body. But if he can't help recover the parachutist's body, there's no point taking him on the mission. But if he doesn't come on the mission, they might not find the parachutist (e.g. when Hurley suggests they split up, it could work out differently). So Charlie has to go on the mission for it to succeed; but if he does go on the mission he will be killed and the mission will fail. Hmmmm.... Aaaargh! Burt Gummer

OK, How's this? According to Desmond's flashes, Charlie helps to get the parachutist down from the tree. If Charlie doesn't come along, the premonition doesn't come true - they don't rescue the parachutist from the tree. But if Charlie does come along, he gets killed by the booby trap. And if he's killed by the booby trap, he can't help recover the parachutist from the tree. So, if Charlie doesn't come on the mission, they don't rescue the parachutist; but if Charlie does come on the mission, he dies and they don't rescue the parachutist. Yes! Catch-22! Burt Gummer

US vs UK spelling

Do we have a general preference? I notice "pretense" (USA) and "pretence" (UK) have been edited back and forth several times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackdavinci (talkcontribs) .

Good question. My first thought is "It's an American show" but then I reali[z,s]e there are plenty of speakers of other kinds of English all over it. Should Charlie's lines, for example, be spelled/spelt the way he himself would spell them? I guess synopses and other encyclopedic content should stick to American spelling. MJ 14:35, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Whoops, sorry, that's my fault. I had changed it during my occasional spelling/typo checks of the article. I didn't realise that pretence is spelt differently in the USA. I won't revert it any more. I agree that Lostpedia should be written in US English as both the show and the web site are based there. Northald 15:09, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Someone else on helicopter?

Maybe it is because I have flown quite a bit, but usually you bring a book on a flight trip to read. The photocopy of the picture seems to be used as a bookmark. Was someone else piloting the helicopter? Don't know if this has any real bearing on the storyline, but I thought it was something to be thought about (or at least I had been).

--Srvivr 14:12, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • I was wondering why everyone assumes Naomi is the pilot. She may not have been, there may well have been someone else on the Helicopter/Osprey (or whatever it was that crashed). --RyanBrynna 09:38, 22 April 2007 (PDT)

Portuguese

This article needs a picture of that Portuguese edition of "Catch 22".

I have to remind everybody that someone who speaks Portuguese is not necessarily Portuguese. --Zicsoft 14:47, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

That's a really weird link to use. But, I get it.--Invertebrat 21:48, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
Hey, if you're a Lost fan, you should be used to "weird"! --Zicsoft 12:07, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Can we have some clarifty of purpose please?

Two questions in the 'Unanswered questions' section are
"What is Brother Campbell's relationship to Ms. Hawking?"
"If Ms. Hawking didn't want Desmond to marry Penny, why does someone she knows well (Brother Campbell) arrange for them to meet?"
The first one I can understand, because of the photo in the episode.
But the second one? Where is there any suggestion that Br.Campbell 'arranged' for Desmond to meet Penny? It struck me as pure chance.
Lately (since season 3 restarted), the 'Unanswered questions' section has not made much sense. Many of the questions don't relate to Theories, Characters, Plot, or anything. There are so many 'nothing' questions with no significance; equivalent to asking, "Where do they get all the tarpaulins?", "How do they make their torches?", "What's the significance of The Others having bicycles, given that Othersville is so small? Eh?, Eh? EH? EH?"
The 2nd question (above) is a useless quibble about a flashback that merely shows how Desmond and Penny met. It's like asking, "Why was Charlie busking on the street outside Widmore's office block?"
I sometimes think people make up these questions because they are desperate to get an 'Unanswered question' onto the episode page! Burt Gummer 16:14, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Just because Desmond and Penny weren't supposed to marry... that doesn't mean they weren't supposed to meet. And then they were supposed to break up, and then... she was supposed to search for him? This whole thing seems more and more contrived, the more I think about it... Madhank

Most Unanswered Questions are put up by amateur users of Lostpedia because they are so confused and they don't know where to go with their questions rather than questions that will benefit and deepen the understanding of other viewers. --Freebert 20:19, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

I put the question up; it doesn't bother me a bit that someone else took it down. I don't understand why some have chosen to make a such big deal about it. "What is the relationship" between Campbell and Hawking really isn't that critical to the plot. The picture and the positioning of it (prominently on his desk) establishes that there IS a relationship, and that we will likely see Hawking again. The important relationships relative to the plot are Desmond/Penny and Desmond/Hawking. Free will vs Fate, sacrifices for the greater good, etc. That's what my question was getting at. --Eyeful Tower 04:51, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Which question was your's? The one about Br.Campbell & Ms.Hawking was no problem. The one about Desmond and Penny's meeting being arranged' is just too spurious. Burt Gummer (imho, of course).
Mine was the 'arranged' one. I debated whether or not to put it in unanswered questions or discussion. What I was thinking fits better as expressed above.--Eyeful Tower 06:21, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Don't be too quick to assume that something is "pure chance". Or that it's not. The writers love to have fun with "is it just a coincidence?" --Zicsoft 12:12, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Well Br.Campbell says to Penny, "Always a pleasure to see you". Always? Implies regular contact between Br.Campbell and Penny Widmore. So this episode now gives connections from Ms.Hawking to Br.Campbell to Penny Widmore. All of them were involved with Desmond at some point, presumably Desmond encounters Ms.Hawking about 2 years later. But I still think that 'arranged' is stretching things too much, without some kind of rationale to back it up. After all, if Desmond meets Penny by chance (through his association with Br.Campbell), then the only remarkable aspect is that he goes to buy a ring in Ms. Hawking's shop. Maybe my query should have been, "What exactly is the Unanswered Question here?" Burt Gummer

Given that I immediately and completely gave in on the issue of whether or not my comment belonged in "Unanswered Questions," and that what remains are not questions of fact but rather of interpretation and opinion, the answer to your query is, "Why haven't we dropped this and moved on?";-)--Eyeful Tower 21:18, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
"Gave in?" It's not a fight, it's a discussion page. I thought the policy was to thrash things out here; not put any old half-baked question straight on the main page! If the subject can be dropped that easily, that confirms it wasn't worth raising. Burt Gummer
I think there's definitely a legitimate question here: why does Br. Campbell have a picture of himself with Ms Hawkins on his desk, and what is the connection between these two people?Gabefarkas 08:34, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

Clicking Sounds

Anyone else notice the annoying clicking sounds that started after desmond got the medkit from jack and lasted until after saywer was in kates tent as she got dressed? At first I thought it was my tv, but then I paused it then payed it and the sound was still there. Any Ideas if it has any signifigance to the episode? Or was it not meant to be heard? -AlmightySal

  • AlySaly, I am sure that it was a problem with the broadcast (transmission in the jungle) that ABC was pushing out. I got it as well. You can check when ABC reruns this next week, but I think it is pretty safe to say that someone dropped the ball. (the audio dropping out for a few minutes has been a problem, at least for me, in my HD watching of Lost recently) --Turniphead Danny 21:59, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

Desmond flash vs. Locke's dream

There is an interesting parallel between Locke and Boone....and Desmond and Charlie. In both cases there is a dream revelation of the future that suggests danger to a particular person but something of value being available at the same time. Both men in some sense were given a choice to sacrifice someone in exchange for something they wanted.

In the case of Locke, he was willing to sacrifice Boone, Boone died and Locke got something but not necessarily what he expected. He later described Boone as as a sacrifice that the Island demanded. Desmond was unwilling to sacrifice Charlie when it came down to it and he still got something but not what he expected either.Dharmatel4 19:16, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • I noticed this too. Both of their flashbacks seem to focus on their inferiority complex's and desire to 'make something' of themselves aswell. Desmond seems more defeated though and less motivated to fulfill his 'destiny'. Though I'm sure his ruminations on the futility of saving Charlie prove this could change.--Laika 03:20, 23 April 2007 (PDT)

Apple iPhone

Whilst checking through the article, I noticed a user had stated that the satellite phone depicted resembled Apple's forthcoming iPhone. The user in question had also placed an image of Apple iPhone.

The satellite phone as seen in the episode can be seen here [2]. As you can see, the device itself bears no resemblance to the Apple iPhone other than the fact that it has a touch screen with icons on (as do many other phones).

I work for Saatchi & Saatchi, so I have some idea of Apple's marketing techniques. After looking at the user's history I realised that a large proportion of their contributions had involved placing Apple's brand name in to Lostpedia. I am very suspicious that they are representing Apple in some way and their edits have the intention of subverting the Lostpedia in order to display the Apple brand and have it associated with a successful show like Lost.

I deleted the reference to the Apple iPhone, including the product image. However the original user keeps placing it back in and he says in his comments that he intents to keep doing so until I stop reverting. This doesn't seem very constructive or productive to me, so I thought I'd discuss it here. Am I right in thinking that mentioning Apple's iPhone and displaying an image of the product is not suitable for Lostpedia? What do people think? Northald 22:27, 19 April 2007 (PDT)

  • The awful truth of the matter is that guerilla marketing, in the likes of which said user is engaged, is all over the internet, and there are tons of people who make their living doing nothing but shilling products while pretending to be actually involved in an online community or 200. There was a great article about it last year: "I'm Evil" (The Escapist issue #62) (disclaimer: this link was not endorsed or financed by any third party). --Air Hadoken 23:53, 19 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I agree that the iPhone has nothing to do with Lost, although I think it is more likely just a user with a bee in their bonnet rather than stealth marketing. Not worthy of mentioning on Lostpedia, but equally not worthy of getting into an edit war. If our Apple fan does keep adding it regardless of these discussions, then best to flag it up to a SysOp so they can deal it. Oh, and can folk remember to sign their talk comments please?--TechNic|talk|conts 04:24, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
  • I agree that the iPhone has nothing to do with Lost, however I did notice one Apple icon on the satellite phone. The "Home" icon | on the phone (1st row, middle icon) is the same icon used in Mac OS X to denote a | user's home folder. It's probably nothing, but it did catch my eye. --uNp0c0[http:/the-madness.net L0c0] 14:04, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
  • Haha, you guys make me laugh. I referenced the iPhone and also added most of the section in trivia about it. I assure you, I am NOT a marketer for Apple. I think before you guys start pointing fingers and yelling out crazy conspiracies maybe think...wait a second... this could be LOST product placement! I'm not saying it's true, but LOST is infamous for working with Sprite (Sublymonal) and Jeep and shamelessly promoting their products in conjunction with the show. The icons do look VERY similar, and its touch sensitive as well. EVen if it's irrelevant to the storyline I'd appreciate it if people didn't accuse me of being so evil with this haha. Also, I'm fine if you take it off, and I never said it wasn't Ok to, I just think its interesting to note the similarities. But hey, what do I know...I'm just a kooky product marketer looking to poison your minds with hidden Apple messages. Yeah right. Also, where in my history do I place other Apple references, please, if your going to make statements like that show some evidence instead of saying "original user" without any links to their contributions.--Freebert 16:03, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
    • By the way Northald, you can't just go around on Lostpedia or any other Wiki for that matter deleting things willy nilly just because you think its "advertising". Whether or not it means anything, there is an undeniable similarity between the two. I didn't add back/undo any of the Apple stuff after you deleted it based on your thought that it was "advertising", actually, other people (multiple) undid and put back the trivia because it is relelvant and possibly important. You need to look past this ridiculous idea of it being advertising and udnerstand that its a piece of information that can hopefully deepen the understanding of those who view Lostpedia, and isn't that the goal? --Freebert 16:24, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
    • I think they were talking about this edit: [3] in which the user plans to: 'Rv. "ads" redactions, will do so in perpetuity'. That sounded a little threatening, so I think people wanted to point it out. I don't think anyone purposely accused you of anything, Freebert. Best of luck.-- Dagg talk contribs4 8 16:35, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
      • Ah, thanks dude. Sorry for freaking out haha. --Freebert 20:48, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

Inconsistencies Between Des' Flash and Reality?

In Des' flash at the beginning, Des is wielding a machete. In realtime, no machete. In the flash, Charlie's words as he stepped on the trip wire were, "...pair of Kryptonite..." In realtime, he said "...pair of Kryptonite ballet slippers?" Hmmmm.--Eyeful Tower 06:10, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

I think that this is just a production error. They obviously shot the scene twice. Once where Desmond doesn't intervene and once where he does. I hope that there is nothing more to this than that. --Samhain99 12:10, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
Who's to say it's a production error. As Desmond says his flashes aren't necessarily the future, he or someone else could change it so his flashes are wrong. And at any rate I don't think it really matters whichever the case. -Mr.Leaf 12:21, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
If this was purposeful on the part of the creative team, why do you think it doesn't matter?--Eyeful Tower 13:53, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

I'd go with production error. You can explain the difference in dialogue by saying Desmond's premonition isn't complete. But in Desmond's premonition, both he and Hurley step over the tripwire before Charlie steps on it. In realtime, when Charlie steps on the tripwire, Hurley is behind him (with Jin). Burt Gummer

After watching it again, the "incomplete" argument doesn't fly with respect to the dialogue. In the flash, Charlie says, "...pair of Kryptonite... <steps on trip wire> What the hell?" In realtime he says, "...pair of Kryptonite ballet slippers... <steps on trip wire> What the hell?" And the order of the characters during the Superman/Flash argument as they approach the booby trap is the same in the flash and realtime: Desmond, Hurley, Charlie, Jin. Just trying to make sure we have the facts right.--Eyeful Tower 21:08, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
There is a bigger problem with the vision. Charlie is at the tree helping to bring Naomi down in the vision itself. I would put whatever happened down to the fact that we don't really know what Desmond is seeing or what its source is. We don't know that its even really the future. In addition, the trip itself doesn't naturally happen. Desmond initiates the trip based on the vision. That in itself may have been enough to introduce small changes to what happened. But this is all speculation and without further information on what the flashes are, there is no way to conclude if its a production error or not. Dharmatel4 20:14, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

predestination is not the same as Catch-22.

In the main article, Trivia section, General heading, there is confusion between a no-win situation and a predestination paradox. I think I have nailed the Catch-22 element in the section above. Anybody object if I change the main article? Burt Gummer 15:52, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

No objections, so I've changed it. Burt Gummer 16:37, 27 April 2007 (PDT)

Mix tape

Did he mean an actual mix tape or was "Come on, freckles wait, now look, you need me to make ya a mix tape" some kind of U.S./Texan joke/saying? I know that he later came with a real tape for Kate but I took that as a try to be funny again. Any insight on this? Roger 14:49, 2 May 2007 (PDT)

  • I know that this is pretty much a dead post (almost 3 years after the fact). I just thought I'd answer the guy's question. "Making a mix tape" for a someone is an American cultural reference. A young person would copy their favorite songs onto a cassette tape and then give it to the object of their attraction. It's kind of a method of courting for individuals who were adolescents in the 1980's and 1990's. So the Lost example is that Sawyer would make a mix-tape for Kate, because he liked her. We know that he doesn't have the necessary equipment to do this, so he just gives her a Phil Collins tape. (It's odd that he was able to find a cassette tape AT ALL.) It's also of note that Phil Collins and the making of mix-tapes were at the height of their individual popularity during the 80's and 90's. Meaning that his songs would have likely been on many mix-tapes. --DanVader228 06:31, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Sawyer's book

Does anyone know what book Sawyer is reading in this episode? I.E. the one he reads in his tent went Kate comes in and jumps him. Burnside65 21:16, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

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