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Talk: Cast and crew crossovers

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Revision as of 17:49, 23 February 2009 by Fig newton (talk | contribs) (→‎Clean up list)
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TV section

Shouldn't we enlarge the TV section with all the other TV show? -- Dottorcere  talk  contributions  03:03, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

    • Sounds good. What i will say is that 24 is my second favourite show and that list is nowhere near complete. Literally everytime i rewatch the shows i will spot a new one. On the last count it was something like 30 people who have been on both shows.--Anfield Fox 05:52, 30 June 2008 (PDT)
      • Ok with a bit of help from IMDB and my memory i added 17 more that were on both Lost and 24 but im sure there are a few i forgot.--Anfield Fox 05:52, 30 June 2008 (PDT)

A Tip

I've really enjoyed editing this page and have added most of the names in the TV section. If anyone wants to help then here is a tip. Search Lostpedia with the same of a TV show eg "Heroes". A list of articles with the word "Heroes" in it will come up. Then check the actor pages in that list and add the relevant ones. Use IMDB for the name of the character in that TV show. Hope this helps --Anfield Fox 13:34, 2 July 2008 (PDT)

He Screwed It up

Ok Pyramidhead completely screwed up the TV section. I spent hours getting all the names, making sure they were in alphabetical order, etc. He has come along and removed names, changed everything to some random order and vandalised that section. Just compare my last edit to the current one on the TV section. How do i change it back without ruining the good work he did in the movie section? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anfield Fox (talk • contribs) .

CSI

Why is CSI missing from the TV section? It's probably had the most amount of the main cast in guest star roles.

Well, Orhan, you could always help by looking it up to see who actually has appeared, as opposed to just telling people to look. As for CSI, feel free to add it. The list is ever-expanding, and by no means comprehensive. So have at it. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  11:01, 28 July 2008 (PDT)
  • Well I took your advice and created:CSI, CSI:NY, CSI:Miami, NCIS, Diagnosis Murder, Ghost whisperer, Walker, texas ranger, JAG, Babylon 5, Cane, party of 5, Ally mcBeal, the Practice, Malcolm in the Middle, Smallville, Sex and the city (but it is debateble since Kyle MacLachlan only narrated Lost), and other few but I only used the regular cast members and some of the reccuring (namely Francois Chau, Michael Bowen, Nestor Carbonell, Marsha Thomason, Mira Furlan, Blake Bashoff, Tania Raymonde, John Terry, L. Scott Caldwell, Sam Anderson, Kevin Durand, Brett Cullen, William Mapother, Andrew Divoff). I would appriciate if somebody added the supporting cast and the background cast to these tables, or you could let me do it, but it will take some time.If anybody has an idea for which TV series to put in these article, please contact me on my talk page.--Orhan94 11:48, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

The 4400

  • Kevin Tighe played recurring Season 4 character Senator Roland Lenhoff.
  • Neil Hopkins played in one episode rockstar Nick Crowley.
  • Peter Coyote played Main Cast member Dennis Ryland.

--DL 19:16, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

Then add to it. =] -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  19:22, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

K-Ville

Could someone upload a poster or a image from that series.--Orhan94 23:51, 18 August 2008 (PDT)

Rename

Rename I'm about to be adding other crew members on each respective show. Therefore, I think that the article should be renamed to "Real-world crossovers." -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:14, 23 August 2008 (PDT)

  • Wouldn't Cast and Crew crossovers be better. I know that crew members and narrators (Kyle MacLachlan, Peter Coyote) are a pottential big crossover/s with other shows, but this will sound as we are listing real world happenings that a referenced in Lost, becuase it doesn't point what kind of crossovers are we using. --Orhan94 15:21, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
I just thought cast and crew crossovers would be a bit too wordy. And once they read the opening paragraph, it will be a cleared up. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:25, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
That goes for every article on Lostpedia, we didn't need to rename Husband to Beth's husband or Man to Man (Left Behind) or Lisa Reyes to Lisa (Numbers), becuase people will find out what is the article about after reading the first sentence or the infobox for the character. We need to have titles that correspond to the article's purpose and/or content.--Orhan94 15:36, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
Point taken, though I doubt real-world crossovers would be as ambiguous. I just feel that there's a more concise way to title the article. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:46, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
OK, BTW the article looks good with cast added, bur could make the pics at least 100px, i know that the concept that I had (150px) was well, too much but this mini look is really weird.--Orhan94 16:04, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
It takes up too much room in proportion to the average size of cast members. There's the big poster and then about eight lines of blank space per row. If they want to see a larger version, all they have to do is click. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:16, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
OK, i think we have an agreement on this subject, I Agree to any rename because the name does not reflect the article anymore.--Orhan94 16:21, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
Now we just need to pick which name is best to rename to. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:25, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
A disscusion is the best here, I'll just add Cast and Crew crossovers as an alternative rename, and we will see which one is voted out be users on LP.--Orhan94 16:43, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
After consideration, Cast and crew crossovers wouldn't be too bad of a name. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:46, 23 August 2008 (PDT)
  • Agree Should be renamed to Cast and crew crossovers. --Ryan76el 04:43, 26 August 2008 (PDT)
  • Rename - Should change to Cast and Crew crossovers, as suggested.--FireSoul|talk|contributions 23:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Definition discussion

  • IMO it's not really a cast crossover unless the characters actually meet and interact in the show, or there is some other significant connection. When twp minor guest actor from Lost had a minor guest parts in the same series but in different episodes several years apart, that is not seem notable to me, it's simply how Hollywood works. However interactions like this are what make a crossover. I'd like to open a discussion on redefining crossovers, esp. since the readability of this article has now deteriorated now that every minor guest actor that has ever been in Lost is being considered. Compromise solutions could involve some leeway when considering main cast of either show, listing these even in cases when the characters don't meet. But with long-running TV-series, it's essentially meaningless to consider guest parts by guest actors from two shows, because if we truly did a thorough IMDb search this article will balloon to be much, much longer than it already is, making it an unreadable article on a meaningless topic (i.e. statistics of the Hollywood actor pool, rather than the interesting phenomenon of crossovers) -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  14:12, 28 September 2008 (PDT)
This is more of a six-degrees article than an actual "these two characters interacted" article. And I think it's interesting to see how many guest actors on Lost had roles on Alias, an Abrams show, as well as how many have appeared or worked on Fringe, another Abrams show, or even to find how many actors and crew of Lost have worked on the competing show Heroes.That's what this article was for. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:52, 28 September 2008 (PDT)
  • I think that we should at least limit this to films/TV shows where four or more actors from Lost appeared. Otherwise, this list is just limitless.--  Lost Soul   talk  contribs  06:19, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
  • I've got to say, that's a good idea, but make it four or more cast and crew members. And we'll be good. All in favor? -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  19:20, 21 October 2008 (PDT)
    • Yes, i agree --Orhan94 08:33, 24 October 2008 (PDT)
    • No, this is a cast crossover article. Crew opens another can of worms we don't need right now. The motivation behind the current discussion is to limit the current scope of the article, not to expand it. Even the proposal of four cast is largely useless in addressing the readibility and usefulness of this article. As mentioned above, for TV shows there has to be some meaningful interaction, otherwise we'll eventually have far too many examples of shows that share four "one-line" guest characters that further make appearances in different and unrelated episodes... for example one-line "costar" roles like Receptionist (courthouse), Man on beach, Andrea, Aussie woman or even deleted scene roles like Dominique: if the actors for these characters were also in 4 unrelated episodes in another TV show, that would not constitute a "crossover" for the vast majority of readers coming to read this article in Lostpedia. Repeating from above: this is just how the business works in Hollywood-- most smaller time actors get roles in many different productions, and therefore every long running production is almost guaranteed to have crossovers with every other long running production . In fact it makes the article ridiculously useless, as it actually obscures the meaningful and interesting crossovers that do exist. This usability issue is what needs to be addressed in this discussion, and not thresholds for inclusion that are arbitrarily decided for no particular rationale at all. If the article can't be changed to be useful, it should be considered for deletion. As for major or interesting roles that Lost actors have in other shows or films, these may be highlighted in their respective actor articles, but not forcefully shoehorned into this article. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  04:05, 11 November 2008 (PST)
      • In fact, what is the purpose of having the crew column? 99% of the Lost crew are not first time workers in the film industry. The purpose of this article cannot possibly be to exhaustively list the CV/credits of every film production job ever done of every crew member of Lost, then listing this in a big clumsy table. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  04:45, 11 November 2008 (PST)

Deletion

  • Delete or fix scope of article to have some encyclopedic relevance to Lost. Storyline crossovers are inherently interesting because it's an optional and intentional device in the manufactured worlds of fiction. In the real world, these crossovers are simply workers in Hollywood doing the standard drill of going for one job to the next. There is nothing interesting about this fact, and furthermore nothing interesting with any relevance to Lost. For now, we'll put the article up for deletion until these fundamental problems are addressed, otherwise this is simply a very cumbersome rehash of imdb. Some solutions to the dilemma might be to note groups of coworkers among the crew that really function as a team and have produced projects together (therefore an unrelated pair of a hairdresser + a casting agent wouldn't qualify). Even this doesn't seem interesting as the executive producers are the ones that really matter (so maybe the scope of the article could be limited to a list of projects of the executive producers). Another solution would be to note actors who have interacted together (either face to face or through obvious major storyline relationships) in another film/tv production (albeit as different characters). Other possible solutions may be proposed and discussed here. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  04:45, 11 November 2008 (PST)
Keep: The Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon article is just as relevant to Lost as this article is. Measures have already been taken to remove extraneous television shows (which did not have three or more cast and crew members) from the list. In fact, I believe that the sole purpose of this article is reader interest. On many cast member pages, there are lines that read "This actor starred in this film or television show, which also had these other actors in it." This page is simply a compilation of these. For shows like Alias and Fringe,, or even the film Cloverfield, which were all helmed by J.J. Abrams, it is interesting to see how many actors from these shows have been on Lost, as well as how many crew members have been a part of the show. Again, it is more of a reader interest article than anything else. It contains no relevance to the plot of the show, but connects actors of the show and also shows how wide-reaching and expansive the cast is. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:48, 11 November 2008 (PST)
  • Thanks Sam. What were the general criteria behind these measures? The extraneous TV shows, and crew listings (we do not need every grip, cameraman, catering dept, drivers, casting, etc.) are the main problem IMO. If you could codify a reasonable set of criteria, that would be very helpful. Thanks! -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  13:16, 25 November 2008 (PST)
  • I've been working to define a set of criteria. So far, the only ones I can think of are quantitative (setting a minimum number of crossovers in order to remain on the article.) I think any shows where a Lost actor is a lead or an executive producer is also an executive producer should be kept. I'll see if I can draw something up fairly soon, and then run it by everyone here on the page. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  15:45, 25 November 2008 (PST)
  • For TV shows, quantitative or direct interaction in a single episode might be good. Also, executive producer is a good place to draw the line for crew, esp. since senior writers also tend to get the exec. producer designation; in that case we might be able to just list the exec. producers in the same column and remove the crew column-- does that sound OK to you? -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  18:43, 25 November 2008 (PST)
  • Well, since you brought it up, I think it should be with E.P.s and writers. They're more related to the plot of the show, and therefore would be instrumental in searching out similarities. So we've got ExecPros and writers. The rest sounds fine, except for the episode problem. How could we best show that the two actors appeared in the same episode, and continue using that template for multiple episodes, perhaps in the same series? -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  20:27, 25 November 2008 (PST)
  • Keep and Cleanup: I think this page is a very lengthy rehash of imdb, and should revolve more around storyline crossovers like Santa said. I don't think the page is worthy of deletion, but it should focus more on Lost storyline crossovers, rather than solely on cast Hollywood projects with no reletivity to Lost. However, the cast crossovers are noteworthy, despite not having much encyclopedic relevance to Lost. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 16:51, 11 November 2008 (PST)
  • Keep as per Sam and CTS --Orhan94 07:28, 12 November 2008 (PST)
    • Maybe we could only keep shows where one of the actors had a major role (Sex and the City, Sleeper Cell, Murder, She Wrote, Babylon 5), where more than 8 people have appeared/worked on (Alias, 24, CSI), J.J. Abrams' shows (Fringe) and possibly major competitor shows (Heroes) or major ABC projects (Desperate Housewives, Ugly Betty). We need to set rules for this page, otherwise it's endless and potentialy reudant to actor pages.--Orhan94 07:37, 12 November 2008 (PST)
Gotta agree with Orhan there. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  13:40, 12 November 2008 (PST)
  • Summary: OK so far we only have opinions from regular editors of this article. Also there seems to be various suggestions for criteria to apply to qualify for inclusion in this article. This type of discussion can continue until a consensus is reached on a set of such criteria; these criteria may then be used if the overall discussion generates arguments giving good rationales to Keep. Also to do: 1) The topic of crew crossovers has not yet been addressed. 2) A different set of criteria of films vs. TV has not been addressed. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  23:58, 12 November 2008 (PST)
  • Keep and Cleanup. We need a clear consensus on the definition of a "crossover". Personally, I would see a "crossover" as when crew members and/or cast members have been involved in the production of the same episode of another series or film together. --Blueeagleislander 00:05, 13 November 2008 (PST)
  • I think that keeping the J.J. Abrams shows (Fringe and Alias) would be obvious, considering that they were both created by the same person. Now, the question is: what will the overall criteria be? -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  14:07, 13 November 2008 (PST)
  • Keep I put hours of work into this and i have come across people on the 24 boards who have been looking at this page and talking about it. People find the information useful and after all, that is what this site is all about --Anfield Fox 00:39, 24 November 2008 (PST)
  • Keep The amount of work put into a page by a user is not reason enough to keep a page. However, I do think it is an interesting resource to see where cast have appeared together in shows, or at least on the same show in their careers -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  03:36, 24 November 2008 (PST)
  • My "delete or keep & fix scope of article" vote may be leaning towards keep. Let's see if everyone is on board with the criteria Sam McPherson comes up with. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  18:45, 25 November 2008 (PST)
  • Here's what I've gotten so far. TV shows may only be featured if:
    • Two or more actors appeared together in the same episode.
    • The show has featured two or more of the same writers and actors in an episode.
    • The show has featured an executive producer and two more actors or writers.
    • The show has featured actors, writers, and a director in the same episode.
  • We need to write down a list of shows featured on this list, then try, one by one to separate the ones who fit Sam's criteria and the ones that don't fit it. I think that the best place for that list would be on this talk page. If we agree, I don't mind starting it right now.--Orhan94 13:17, 26 November 2008 (PST)
  • I disagree with Jacob erm i mean Sam's list. Why do they have to have worked together on the same episode? Just that they appeared on the same series together is enough. If you like Lost and another show on that list then you will look at it and think "cool, that's where i recognized him from". Besides, cutting down the list to actors that worked together on the same episode would be a laborious task and for what? Just my opinion though. You all do what you think is best but im going to save a copy of this page before it's gone --Anfield Fox 03:13, 28 November 2008 (PST)
  • If you're interested in a certain cast member, you can just look them up. Same series is borderline ridiculous. And isn't a lot of wiki work a laborious task? Just because a task will take some time is no reason not to do it. Wikis are communities that work together on projects. "Many hands make light work". I like Sam's proposed rules, but we should also work directors into them somehow. --Blueeagleislander 05:13, 28 November 2008 (PST)
I amended the above rules to include directors. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  06:25, 28 November 2008 (PST)
  • Looking good. I'm not sure I agree with mixing and matching different types of workers for the criterion: say 1 guest director + 1 guest actor + writer doesn't pass my "common sense" test for what I think of as a crossover. Neither do I want every TV episode that Horowitz & Kitsis have done in the past... I'm not sure but we can research whether the executive producer category covers it b/c I think the senior-writer-as-executive-producer is a common phenomenon-- so if we include exec producers, we have covered "major" writers. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  13:45, 28 November 2008 (PST)
  • Does that not mean that all the movie lists will have to be redone so that if two actors were in the same movie together but never appeared in the same episode then they would have to be removed? --Anfield Fox 00:37, 29 November 2008 (PST)
Don't know what you mean. Movies are movies are movies. Short, two hour pieces of film. That's it. This is about TV. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  08:03, 29 November 2008 (PST)
What Sam said. My comment was regarding episodic TV shows, not feature films (movies). -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  10:14, 29 November 2008 (PST)
For example in Iron Man, Faran Tahir and Shaun Toub were in different episodes of Lost. Why should they be listed when they never worked together on the show? Juxtaposition that with the proposal that two actors whom didn't work together on the same episode of a TV series are being removed. Why one rule for TV and another for Movies? --Anfield Fox 13:51, 29 November 2008 (PST)
You're on a completely different page than we are. We're not going by episodes of Lost. The episodes of Lost function together. We're talking about the episodes of the TV show that is being featured on the page. So while Shaun Toub appeared in "Enter 77" and Faran Tahir appeared in "The Shape of Things to Come", they both appeared together in Iron Man, which is a short work of film. Therefore, it's a crossover - both on Lost, both in a short work of film (movie or episode). -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  14:25, 29 November 2008 (PST)
I know exactly what page your on. I'm saying that it's hypocritical. One rule for one thing, another for something else. Why is it a crossover for Lost but not the other way round? That said i'm beating a dead horse and really don't care enough to keep arguing this. Do whatever yall want. I have said my piece --Anfield Fox 15:49, 29 November 2008 (PST)
  • Anfield Fox, please keep the discussion neutral and civil. Also your comment above regarding television vs. films suggests you have not read the discussion from the beginning-- television is exactly the problem this discussion is trying to remedy. In short: Hollywood is a small pool so to speak, and if you take every minor guest actor for every bit part, there is literally going to be overlap (or "crossover" under this definition) of Lost (with at least one individual) with nearly every other TV show in the past 5-10 years. This definition does not seem to satisfy the "common sense" definition of a crossover, nor is it practical to list this many TV shows. If we extend this to the entirety of crew (grips, set dressers, lighting, cameramen, production assistants), we have the same problem which is that we'll end up just reproducing (almost) the entirety of IMDb. Limiting the definition in these cases will be good for Lostpedia, b/c we'll have a resource that visitors will actually read, rather than a table that scrolls for dozens of pages. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:49, 29 November 2008 (PST)
Sorry. I meant no disrespect. You do a great job here on Lostpedia and i enjoy talking to Sam on the boards, especially on his interview threads. I just felt like Boone when he took the water in "White Rabbit" for the good of the group and everyone got on his back, Charlie punched him and called him a thief before Jack came and gave his "LTDA" speech. I'm still waiting for Jack to show up on this page :p --Anfield Fox 00:03, 30 November 2008 (PST)
If we can't edit together, we'll disconnect alone! Smiley emoticons razz --Blueeagleislander 01:50, 30 November 2008 (PST)
Santa covered all the major points. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:02, 29 November 2008 (PST)
And, in case anyone wants to continue using as a reference/adding to this page, I've preserved the TV section here. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  21:06, 29 November 2008 (PST)
So do you think that at this time the deletion tag could be removed (and possibly replaced with a cleanup)? -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  16:57, 1 December 2008 (PST)
Good idea. --Blueeagleislander 17:49, 1 December 2008 (PST)
  • OK we'll still need to put the qualifiers in small print somewhere in the article after we agree on something here. As review, Sam had suggested the following for television:
  1. Two or more actors appeared together in the same episode.
  2. The show has featured two or more of the same writers and actors in an episode.
  3. The show has featured an executive producer and two more actors or writers.
  4. The show has featured actors, writers, and a director in the same episode.

I am leaning against mixing and matching unrelated categories, such as writers and actors, or producers and actors. Producers and Writers however are related and can go together. Also I'd rather not reproduce the entire output of the Horowitz and Kitsis writing team. Therefore IMO #2 should be removed completely, and "actors" should be removed from #3. #4 doesn't seem like a "crossover" to me, and might also be removed. I'm not sure where to put in directors, but I don't think they are really relevant to the concept of a "crossover", except in the case of in-house regular directors who are usually also executive-producer level anyways, so they are covered.

My proposal:

  1. Two or more actors appeared together in the same episode.
  2. The show has featured an executive producer and at least two more writers.
-- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:27, 11 December 2008 (PST)

Star Trek

Why did someone remove the Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise crossovers from the list of shows? They didn't even merge them into one. I would like to know.--Anfield Fox 00:43, 24 November 2008 (PST)

I got rid of them because they did not meet the criteria.-- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  10:44, 29 November 2008 (PST)
  • If listing Star Trek information is something you want to do nonetheless, one possibility I might suggest for now you is create a subpage in your userspace, for example User:Anfield Fox/Star Trek cast overlaps or something similar. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:51, 29 November 2008 (PST)

Sopranos

Robert Patrick - David Scatino Ken Leung - Carter Chong

(Not sure exactly how to edit this in but I'll leave it on the talk page, these actors were in seperate saeasons several years apart so not sure if this counts but I'll put it here) - Integrated 11:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, these do not meet the new criteria for the page. These had previously been on the page, but were edited out because they did not fit. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  19:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The West Wing

Could someone add an image for The West Wing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fig newton (talk • contribs) 19:50, 2 January 2009.

Also, not sure if it meets the new requirements I've seen discussed. I do know Tony Lee and Byron Chung appeared in the same episode. --Fig newton 19:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Clean up list

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