I created this page to list the books shown on Jack's bookshelf in the Season 3 episode of "Lost," "A Tale of Two Cities." The appearances of literary works has been established as an important part of the show. Tdciago 09:41, 30 September 2006 (PDT)tdciago
Delete[]
Delete or merge: Whilst I think this user has very admirably gone to a lot of trouble noting these, I feel this information is more a side-note of trivia (e.g. Jack's shelf in his office had numerous Mary Higgins Clark books), rather than deserving of a full article on such a trivial matter --Nickb123 (Talk) 09:42, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
- Definite Delete: I just don't think that this is worthy of an article. --Marik7772003 09:43, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
Please see Lostpedia's "Appearances_of_Literary_Works" for more listings of literary works on "Lost." The bookshelf contains works with relevance to themes of the show, including redemption, astrology, science vs. faith, The Wizard of Oz, etc. The inclusion of detective books is in part a nod to the fans, and some of the books include significant content. See "Valhalla Rising," for example, or some of the Florida books that echo the setting of "Bad Twin."Tdciago 09:51, 30 September 2006 (PDT)tdciago
- Yes we could possibly add it to that page. Just leave it for the moment, and someone could maybe merge later --Nickb123 (Talk) 09:56, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
- strong delete: there is such a thing as too much detail; to make any of this a part of the plot in any way would be cruel, sadistic, and exceptionally unlkely. --19:40, 30 September 2006 (PDT) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaini (talk • contribs) .
I am frankly astonished at the insistence on deleting this list of books, considering the fact that Lostpedia includes lists of all other books, or identified portions of books, seen on the show, as well as the following: List of Art featured in Lost, List of Music featured in Lost, List of Animals on the Island, Automobiles featured in Lost, Fan-made DHARMA logos, List of nicknames, List of regularly spoken phrases, Portal: Key, and Unofficial podcasts. Certainly not every one of these lists are clues to the show's mysteries, or even official, yet they are considered important enough to warrant articles. Clearly, there has been fan interest in exploring the literature referenced on the show, to such an extent that some viewers have tried to read all of the books shown on "Lost" so far. Some of the books on these shelves are filler; others were chosen for the significance of their titles; and still others for their content, which relates to themes on the show. Tdciago 20:08, 30 September 2006 (PDT)tdciago
- there's a difference between literature referenced on the show (The Third Policeman, Our Mutual Friend et al have verifiable parallels with the plot of the show) and some stuff that was behind jack in a flashback. it's arguably the same car, the mural in the hatch has had some camera time more than once, this is canonicity. a few seconds of airtime is not imo.--kaini. 21:01, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
Kaini has a definite point. It was in a flashback. Do you really think that these books would play a big role in the future? --Marik7772003 21:08, 30 September 2006 (PDT)
Perhaps you need to take another look at "Appearances of Literary Works." Several books are merely seen on shelves or lying next to a character. Some authors and works are only referenced in dialogue, and are never seen. Others are simply presumed to relate to themes on the show. The character Harry Potter is mentioned in one line of dialogue, and Gilgamesh is seen briefly in a crossword puzzle. A poem by Li Bai is seen in a Sun/Jin flashback, and so on. As for the flashbacks, they are there for a reason, and have relevance to the characters and motifs on the show. All of the automobiles listed in that extensive article are seen in flashbacks. Music, artwork, and keys are also in flashbacks. A little bit of research into some of the books on Jack's bookshelf will yield some surprising results. Look up "Fire in the Mind" (science vs. faith), "Valhalla Rising" (ancient monsters, sea disaster), "Pale Horse Coming" (Greek mythology references), "Dark Horse" (resurrection and redemption), "Redemption" (an obvious reference, like "Redemption Song"), "No Place Like Home" (another Wizard of Oz reference), "Domes of Fire" (magic, gods, etc.), "The Prisoner of Azkaban" (the concept of prison, magic, Sirius). Also note that "Dirty Work" and the Bible are already listed on Lostpedia, and "Hearts in Atlantis" was linked to the Oceanic site. The producers of the show have said that there's a reason for everything. They're well aware that viewers will be dissecting screencaps for clues. I'm sure there will be interest in the bookshelf after "A Tale of Two Cities" airs. It would be nice if Lostpedia was ahead of the game, and already had the list of books prepared.Tdciago 21:38, 30 September 2006 (PDT)tdciago
- what i'm trying to get at is that references like this are wilfully obtuse, though. it would be comparable to the DHARMA logo on the shark in terms of impact on canon/plot. --22:33, 30 September 2006 (PDT) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaini (talk • contribs) .
Please explain how detailed lists of automobiles, fan-created DHARMA logos, and unofficial podcasts are important in terms of impact on canon/plot. (And by the way, I have no objection to any of these lists being included on Lostpedia.) It's evident that impact on canon/plot is not a prerequisite for inclusion in the Lists category. How does one justify the inclusion of Li Bai, Alfred de Musset, and "Hindsight," but exclude an entire bookshelf full of titles in Jack's office? If the point of "Appearances of Literary Works" is to provide the names of books and authors that are directly or indirectly referenced on the show, then certainly these titles are as worthy of inclusion as anything seen on the Hatch shelves or in Sun's house, or being used as a doodle pad by Locke. This is especially true since several of the books have been seen before. And heck, even the shark has its own article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by tdciago (talk • contribs) .
- Keep: Why p' somebody off, who's gone to such a great deal of work, by deleting their Magnum opus? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, ditto "relevance to Lost".--ActiveValue 06:17, 1 October 2006 (PDT)
- Keep: Let's keep this, but please, can we also add to Jack's backstory the number of facial hair he had during that scene ? I am interested as maybe he had 7418880 hairs ! TheAma1 06:37, 13 April 2007 (PDT)
The last I heard, someone had deleted the page but saved the information, with the intention of restoring it after the airing of "A Tale of Two Cities." I'd like to request that the article be restored or merged into "Appearances of Literary Works," especially since books were a key part of the first few minutes of the episode.Tdciago 22:05, 4 October 2006 (PDT)tdciago
Delete I'm not sure why this page was merged back into the main page, when the majority of votes I see are for delete, and very few for merge. The merge was a bad idea, regardless, because it extends the literary page way too long, largely with a lot of minutia that doesn't necessarily have as much relevance as books that the writers specifically and intentionally used as obvious references (though kudos for the work expended on the research, I looked at the books, and they sound like typical prop books gathered to fill up what might be found in a doctor's bookshelf). Therefore, I am putting it back here with a replacement of the delete nominations. We need to either keep or delete this page, merging it is not a good option for an already long and unwieldy book references list page. --PandoraX 15:48, 2 November 2006 (PST)
keep the very fact that someone would go to this trouble is part of the Lost phenomenon. This kind of ephemera is definitely on the same spectrum as the Lostpedia itself. Raining girl 16:38, 14 November 2006 (PST)
- Delete - Agree: This is an interesting article - even though it doesn't give a lot of insight to the show, and much as I'd like to see it stay, I would have to agree with you on deleting it, especially since its has already been merged with another article. If we would keep this article :), I would strongly suggest a cleanup and/or complete overhaul. -- Liz
Keep. I agree to the argument that if literary works are relevant to the plot than this page has a place in Lostpedia. I do find the presentation uninteresting and confusing. Perhaps if the layout were a bit more attractive as well as useful it would get more support. At the least indicate which books are relevant to the plot and why.--EvilSmoke 19:25, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- My argument here would be that while I strongly believe literary references deserve mentions on Lostpedia, that this bookshelf is not meant to be analyzed as containing them. Previously, all their literary references have been focused on in clear flashes that emphasize the subject, and this trend continues with Every Man for Himself (Of Mice and Men). There is also a time when a background scene will simply require the filling of viable and believable props. You would expect a doctor's office to be filled with books on a shelf, but none are focused on in this scene, and I think they are clearly background material used as "filler". My guess is that they probably called the props department and said "we need some books for Jack's office shelf", not "Let's sit down at the writer's table and think about what kinds of book references we want the audience to think about, and put them on Jack's shelf". --PandoraX 08:59, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- I agree with PandoraX that this is not something that is going to provide vital clues for understanding the mystery. Yes, it was probably up to the props team to come up with something. But, what a hell of a good job they did, wouldn't you say? Somebody has done their homework and it ties nicely with the story (scroll down to JACK’S BOOKSHELF). I stand by my vote.--EvilSmoke 10:58, 17 November 2006 (PST)
- My argument here would be that while I strongly believe literary references deserve mentions on Lostpedia, that this bookshelf is not meant to be analyzed as containing them. Previously, all their literary references have been focused on in clear flashes that emphasize the subject, and this trend continues with Every Man for Himself (Of Mice and Men). There is also a time when a background scene will simply require the filling of viable and believable props. You would expect a doctor's office to be filled with books on a shelf, but none are focused on in this scene, and I think they are clearly background material used as "filler". My guess is that they probably called the props department and said "we need some books for Jack's office shelf", not "Let's sit down at the writer's table and think about what kinds of book references we want the audience to think about, and put them on Jack's shelf". --PandoraX 08:59, 16 November 2006 (PST)
Also, I imagine that one book, Skinny Dip, was an in-joke. :-D --Amberjet11 11:01, 17 November 2006 (PST)
- Delete: Insignificant to the storyline. Perhaps a few of the selections could be added to the trivia section on the episode page, but not everything. -- Jabberwock talk contribs email - 12:07, 17 November 2006 (PST)
Keep I definetely think this should be kept as literature plays a huge part in Lost and it's mythology -- user:random2502 - 23.09, 17 November 2006 (DST)
Keep-the fact that someone went to all the trouble is inspiring, plus its an intresting read.--LOCI!
Delete-I'm stating this now, just because the same list is/can be in the Literary Works page. If the user can expand a bit and give detail on each book or the shelf's significance in general, I'll change my vote.--MightyRearranger 15:27, 17 November 2006 (PST)
- Actually, while I only have a weak delete vote on keeping the article as is, I strongly object to doing an analysis of every book on this list. As a list as it stands now, it is merely descriptive, and people can make up their minds over whether it has relevance to lost, or is an example of apophenia (I think it is). Going into detailed analysis would be like showing that lostpedia has a consensus that there is significance to every single book there, which is not my opinion at all. --PandoraX 15:43, 17 November 2006 (PST)
- Oh yeah, I'm with you on that one. No need to get into deep stuff. I think that if the themes were identified than that would be cool. We are talking about Jack's bookshelf, so looking at the themes that are relevant to Jack is kinda nice.--EvilSmoke 18:31, 17 November 2006 (PST)
- I think I mistated that a bit. I just think that because that article is titled Jack's Bookshelf, the opening paragraph should talk a little about the shelf (ie: where it is, what flashback, why it has it's own article). Secondly, there need to be more links to the individual book pages, and possibly a little tidbit if the book has any connections or parallels to Lost. just my opinion though. If we have a page for Jack's shelf, then what's to stop someone from making one for Isaac's wall of thank you cards?--MightyRearranger 18:42, 20 November 2006 (PST)
Keep - It isn't hurting anyone to have this page and the importance of literary works in Lost is a relevant issue. Jeepers, I see more people voting to keep silly parody pages. --Found 19:39, 20 November 2006 (PST)
Delete - I think this page is taking it a bit too far. Who really wants to know what book's Jack keeps on his shelf? Princess Dharma (banned)
Keep - I could go either way on the books, but it gives us a piece of his back story (see post on image below)--Rjmonti 13:44, 20 March 2007 (PDT)
Strongly Delete - This page is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS. -- Nusentinsaino talk contribs email
High-Res image[]
There is a really nice high-res image on this link. I have a couple of questions. 1) I found this image through the thealternativeisland.blogspot.com. Is it OK to use it? 2) I tried to upload it but I got a warning saying it was too big (I canceled). How can I create the link "download a high-res version of this image" on the image? Can I upload it anyway even if it's big?--EvilSmoke 05:19, 19 November 2006 (PST)
I just found out that this high-res image was a promotional photo from ABC[1]. If it was released as a promotional photo it was meant for fans to look at the bookshelf (notice how Jack and Shepard are strategically placed so that we get a clear view of the bookshelf).--EvilSmoke 08:32, 20 November 2006 (PST)
- Debatable. It just looks like it's a good picture of father and son standing together. One might also argue that this photo was released so we were meant to see Jack's sneakers, thus generating an article about them. I don't think the work done on this article should be deleted entirely; maybe it can be copy/pasted into his user page. --Amberjet11 08:39, 20 November 2006 (PST)
- Yes, not every photo is going to be filled with goodies to analyze. Some will be just to show off Sawyer's good looks... --EvilSmoke 10:43, 20 November 2006 (PST)
- Debatable. It just looks like it's a good picture of father and son standing together. One might also argue that this photo was released so we were meant to see Jack's sneakers, thus generating an article about them. I don't think the work done on this article should be deleted entirely; maybe it can be copy/pasted into his user page. --Amberjet11 08:39, 20 November 2006 (PST)
The diploma on Jack's wall says University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). Looking at the episode transcript and Juliet's comments, this must mean that he did his undergrad at Columbia and then graduated early from the UCLA medical school.--Rjmonti 12:52, 20 March 2007 (PDT)
Ben[]
If we have this article, why not one for books on Ben's shelf in "One of Us"?--Phil 05:21, 13 April 2007 (PDT)
- I actually think juxtaposing them adds worth to both articles. Ben's bookshelf is full of quality literature, while Jack apparently prefers trashy chick lit... Scarecrow 08:08, 19 March 2008 (PDT)