Talk:Across the Sea

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Press release...

... is here. [1]  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  19:01, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I Hope

I hope that there's going to be a reason they chose the title "Across the Sea" instead of the more obvious season 1 throwback "Beyond the Sea".--Gibbeynator 11:46, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

• If I had to guess, I'd say that the content of the episode will have nothing to do with the context of that song on the show and they didn't want to merge the two completely separate things. Just my speculation, though.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:07, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • It seems to be taken from dialogue within the episode, as land or people "across the sea" was mentioned by the MiB (or BiB), his adoptive mother, and his biological mother, Claudia.--Tim Thomason 05:52, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just a little stupid

that Jacob never wanted to leave the island, but does to bring candidates, yet Jacob prevents his brother from leaving. ?? ( not counting the fact that he threw him into " the source" light hole , turning MIB into Smokey ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Trogaf (talk • contribs) .

• What's to say Jacob HAS left the Island? Since he apparently has magical powers, he could just as easily project himself in some way that allows him to interact with people. Uzerzero 02:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • He certainly has been seen off island.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:04, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• There is a difference between not wanting to leave the island and having to leave the island to get a candidate to replace him. Either that or after 2000 years he just got bored. --MisterThou 06:29, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Or maybe he just didn't want to leave the Island in 66 AD or whatever the year for fear that he wouldn't be able to find a way back. Then in the 2,000 years later he had somehow found a way for him to be able to also return to the Island. He just told the Man in Black he didn't want to leave the Island for good.--Lostie08 00:44, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Jacob and MIB centric.

Not just MIB. (Kdc2 02:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC))

• • Come on, why hasn't this been changed yet? Give me the password and I'll change it right now. Marc604 06:01, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:16, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • Agreed. They received near-equal screen time and emphasis. --SilentSpy 02:20, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • This episode is about the origins of both characters, and the relationship between the two during their formative years on the Island.  Theartandsound  02:28, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • There are scenes with each character apart from the other. It's centered on them both. —Josiah Rowe 02:54, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • as per above. --Bish-Fiscuit 02:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• --Frakkin Toaster 03:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Also there was no present time Mib flashback whoosh to indicate it was from his perspective alone (MaxMoney37 04:00, May 12, 2010 (UTC))
• Both. Hatchbanger 05:40, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Both.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:30, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I added Jacob in there weeks ago, but someone removed it. Iamlost23 21:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Guest/Co-star

Anyone remember whether Lela Loren was credited in the opening credits? cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes she was. The boy who played young MIB was not however. (Kdc2 02:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC))

Neither was young Jacob —   lion of dharma    talk    email   02:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Kenton Duty, previously known as Teenage Boy, is Young Jacob. --Cul-de-zack 02:28, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

So Lela Loren was a guest star and not a co-star? cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes she was. So was young Jacob. Young MIB was not credited. (Kdc2 02:44, May 12, 2010 (UTC))

Young Jacob was credited at the end, but he was not credited as a guest star in the opening credits. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   02:51, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I'm wrong. For some reason I didn't see it the first OR second time I watched it. Third time's a charm! —   lion of dharma    talk    email   02:54, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

MIB's board game

Senet? box

   Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:43, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The game appears to be ancient Egyption game Senet [2]. Can anyone concur? And if so - there are some beliefs about the game that are interesting in terms of the Lost series --J.nc 02:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm it was Senet. I am a student of ancient history. Jicannon 03:27, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The rules of the game Senet have been lost over time, and are now the topic of some debate. But I guess we can put that all to rest now, MiB knows them! Winegum 03:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• MIB said he made the rules up shortly before seeing the dead entity of his mother, and that one day Jacob will be able to make up the rules of his own game. Phobia27 11:33, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Hang on, Jacob accuses him of 'making the rules' which he doesn't deny, quickly offering the future game scenario as a distraction (spot on). For MiB it's tantamount to admitting the truth but he doesn't state that. Duncan905 04:35, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ack, I thought it might be Duodecim Scripta because those pieces were usually black and white and there was a numbering system involved which the writers could use as a plot device. But the box looks like a Senet box while the pieces look more like Othello. Alatari 05:44, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The article says "She says that it was she that left the game for him". I believe that she was lying, that the game washed up on shore and that she quickly created this story to continue the "there is nowhere else" game. Is it worth editing to include this variant viewpoint? Does it matter? --Mwexler 14:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • Good point, and you're probably right, but it doesn't belong in the episode summary, as it is an interpretation of the episode. Might be worth a mention on the theory page for Mother or the Game.--Frakkin Toaster 18:15, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• there is a description of Senet here: http://www.gamecabinet.com/history/Senet.html. It explains that 15 is considered the square of rebirth and features an ankh- the life symbol, 27 has a water symbol and has a negative connotation.--Destinedjourney 20:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Smoke Monster is Not Jacob's brother

I got the impression from this episode that the Smoke Monster is not Jacob's brother. Jacob's brother is dead, his body buried in the cave. The Smoke Monster simply took his form the same way he later takes Locke's form. Since he received all of Locke's memories when doing so, it's likely that it also received all of the personality and motivations of Jacob's brother. Perhaps a separate page should be made for Jacob's brother and for the Smoke Monster? --NeoCortex 02:52, May 12, 2010 (UTC

• When the Smoke Monster took Locke's form he didn't take Locke's body. Not to mention that Flocke couldn't kill Jacob to begin with, because there were rules in place preventing him from doing so, which we found out about more tonight - when their mother said she "made it so they can't kill each other". The Smoke Monster wouldn't be bound by those rules if he weren't Jacob's brother. Also if Flocke were not Jacob's brother, why would he be seeing visions of Jacob as a young boy in present day?--HaloOfTheSun 02:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• But Jacob's brother's body was left behind, like Locke's. This is what was later found to be Adam in the cave. NeoCortex 02:52, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes... that's the whole point. MIB's body is gone, but he still remains. His mother even said that going into the light in the cave would be "worse than death" or whatever. She didn't say "you die and then a smoke thing comes out". Jacob's brother is now existing as the Smoke Monster. He has no need for his body anymore.--HaloOfTheSun 03:00, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I'm suggesting a separate page be made for "Adam" that covers the birth of Jacob and his brother until the brother's body is buried in the cave and found as part of Adam and Eve. He's a separate character from the Smoke Monster. NeoCortex 02:55, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• But fake-Locke talks about "my mother" being crazy, which would seem to be an obvious reference to the woman in this episode. It looks to me as if Jacob's brother's body died, but his spirit continued to exist in the smoke monster. —Josiah Rowe 02:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Could his 'spirit' count as his memories and personality? Like how Flocke has Locke's memories and some of his personality ("Don't tell me what I can't do!") Winegum 03:31, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • That was my impression as well. That the light basically vaporized the body leaving behind the thoughts, emotions, angst etc of this guy who was in many ways a 13 year old trapped in a 40 something year old body. At least in terms of his obsession to leave. It perhaps even distilled all that 'dark' stuff like the questioning nature,the anger over all the folks being killed, guilt produced when Mother said "I love you" as she was dying. So it was stronger and became 'evil'. Hopefully we'll get a glimpse at Jacob's discovery of this and his setting up the rule that it can't leave so long as the island has a protector. Which would explain why Brother wants to kill him and the 815 folks. and has to so he can leave. --Jayerb 15:03, May 13, 2010 (UTC)15:02, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• The primary impression I got from the episode is that the Man in Black and the Monster are different entities, the monster was just taking on the form of Jacob's dead brother. It raises some issues with some things Locke has said, but I think it's meant to be ambiguous.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:16, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• They are one and the same. It's like Spiderman; after he is bitten by the radioactive spider, he is still Peter Parker, but he is also Spiderman. What we saw tonight was the equivalent of Jacob's brother being bitten by a radioactive spider. He still lives, but not in his body. He lives as a shape-shifter/smokey thing.--Frakkin Toaster 03:22, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• The smoke monster didn't exist before MIB went into the cave, as far as we can tell. They didn't show any encounters with the boys at all, whereas every other visitor/resident has had an encounter within a short time of just getting to the island. I think we can just take it as given that Jacob's brother became the smoke monster, his "life" became something different, and his body wasn't needed. In that light, no, we shouldn't have two pages for Jacob's brother/smoke monster, just separate his character bio into pre- and post-transformation. MannyF 04:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • There is evidence to suggest otherwise, namely some entity already present on the island took the form of the dead Claudia just as Flocke as owned up to Jack that he had previously taken the form of Christian. Whatever was in the cave likely existed in some form and has simply inhabited the body of Jacob's brother. Note also the entity has consistently had to take the form of a dead body on the island (Claudia, Christian, Locke). --MixMasterMike 04:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • I was just thinking about that myself, but I think she's showing up the same way that young Jacob shows up around MIB in the present, ever since he (kinda) killed the older Jacob. I'm pretty sure dead people have shown up at times that aren't just an imposter MIB. And I'm not just talking about Hurley's visions, even Sawyer saw young Jacob, while he was standing right next to MIB. The smoke monster that we've seen wouldn't be contained in that cave. Jacob's brother became the smoke monster, not the other way around. Even when he's posing as Locke, he still talks about his "crazy mother". If he was just based on borrowed memories, wouldn't he think Locke's mother was his mother? MannyF 04:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • I was thinking the same thing - the smoke monster/entity was probably stuck under the island (protected by Jacob and BiB's mother) and manifested itself in dead people in order to trick people into doing what it wanted - that being to get off the island. Which could explain why it took MiB's form: to trick Jacob into believing it's him and not going "Oh my God smoking pillar of doom!" And now it has Locke's form, which further suits his purposes. So yeah, I think Jacob's brother is dead. --Ragnanox 11:58, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• In this episode, the "Crazy Mother" tells Jacob his job is to protect the heart of the island, which is some sort of light and source of all good (or something). In earlier (later) episodes, Jacob says his job is to protect the source of all evil (or something) from getting out. I think we're supposed to see the brother into the heart/Smokey thing as connected to that change.--Tim Thomason 04:16, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• My goodness people, now that the MiB/Smokey can't possibly be Aaron he can't be "Adam" either? There is only one episode left before the finally, you think they're just going to turn everything upsidedown now? It's obvious that Jacob didn't kill the MiB (he couldn't) and the moment the MiB drifts into the cave the smoke monter comes out, how much more spelled out does it have to be? First the writters established that Flocke = MiB. Then they established that Flocke = Smokey, now they've gone and done an entire epsiode to show us that Flocke = Smokey = MiB and you still won't belive it? Even with the fact that there is only 1 episode left before the finally? You guys really think we're gonna get another serious curve ball at this point?--WhyDidntUKnow 12:29, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Of course we're going to get another serious curve ball in the last few episodes. What do you think it's going to be, just 3 eps full of things we already know?? --Chesebrgr 15:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I disagree. When Locke was talking about his crazy mother, he was referring to himself in the first person. when he talks about John Locke, he refers to him in the third person. Seems to me that when his body met the Source, the smoke monster was created. --Manix 18:43, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Bloopers

Continuity error regarding Adam and Eve

This is what I noted on the page: * When the skeletons were first discovered in "House of the Rising Sun" (which this episode shows us in flashback) they were separated and not lying side-by-side, as we see Jacob placing the bodies in this episode. (This continuity error is also present in "Lighthouse".)

Someone responed with this (I have not deleted the objection, just moved it and my reply here to the discussion page as the main page is not for debating issues): **Someone else may have moved them. Jacob could possibly have moved them at a later time.

My response *No. Not unless someone moved them, chronologically, between the events of "Across the Sea" (when Jacob first placed them there) and "House of the Rising Sun" (when the Losties first discovered the skeletons) and then put them back again before the events of "Lighthouse" (when Jack and Hurley found them 3 years after the Losties first found them).

Overall, I am firm in my belief that this is a continuity error. It sprang up in "Lighthouse" and was carried forward into "Across the Sea" but the fact that the latter shows a flashback to the original scene where the skeletons were placed highlights the error further. It is extremely unlikely that someone - even Jacob - moved them then moved them again. This is a continuity error, and an important one to note.

--Jonahwriter 03:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it's a continuity error, if only because I am 100% certain they've said all they are going to say about Adam and Eve. They're not going back to it in the finale and saying, by the way, Jacob moved them slightly. --Frakkin Toaster 03:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Someone else just added (again) "it's possible that they were moved before being discovered by Jack, Kate, Locke". This seems to be missing the point again - It is extremely unlikely as we must look at the chronology.

• • They were side-by-sides in "Across the Sea" thousands of years ago.
  • Separated in 2004 in "House of the Rising Sun".
  • Still side-by-side in 2007/8 when Jack and Hurley rediscovered them in "Lighthouse".
    • That means someone would have moved them after events in "Across the Sea" before "House of the Rising Sun" and then changed them back yet again before "Lighthouse"? No way. This is a continuity error started earlier this season in "Lighthouse" and carried over into this episode. --Jonahwriter 05:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• The continuity error is that Adam & Eve's clothing was 50 to 60 years old, not 1934 to 1944 years old. In fact, nature/rock slides/Others or earlier survivors poking around all could've caused the two bodies to drift slightly apart, and it seems likely that Jacob could've wandered in there and put them back together at some point between 2005 and 2007. In fact, he might've decided to clothe them at some point in the 1950s for some insane reason, so there is no real continuity error.--Tim Thomason 04:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • I disagree. It does not seem likely at all. If anything it's overstretching and making convoluted assumptions, filling in a backstory, rather than accepting a continuity error that started in Season 6. But I've said enough on this point and am not going to continue to debate it. If people want to keep adding "It's possible..." lines, fine. I've made all my points here in the discussion page about why this should be noted as a significant continuity error between Seasons 1 and 6 and I won't keep harping on. However, I DO agree with you on the clothes and I added this new continuity error. I think he said over forty years anyway, but someone might want to check his actual words and change. --Jonahwriter 05:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • No, the continuity error is that the skeletons still existed, at all. They weren't buried and the cave was open to the elements...and wild boars. Keep in mind the island is in a tropical area with heavy rains; that means plenty of moisture to help the decomposition process. It would've been notable for the bones to last 50 years, let alone two thousand. This is a huge error on the part of the producers and kind of blows up the "we knew what were doing from the start" argument they've been making. CaptainSmartass 14:16, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well, let's not forget that Jack's not an archeologist. My sense is that he was talking out of his ass when he said that about the year of clothing. Locke also said something that seemed very inaccurate regarding the clothing on Yemi's skeleton in the Beechcraft. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   06:04, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to add this point: now that we know one of the bodies is the MiB who is to say he doesn't use the corpse when it suits him? He moved Christian Shephard's corpse most likely - he didn't inhabit Yemi's or Lockes body for example, but took on their image because their corpse was available.--Lucky Day | msg 09:17, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

About the continuity error about the clothes they wore: Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers) is the way IMDB does it. --Rikdewinter 09:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Turtle blooper

In the Bloopers section we have "When the young Man in Black sits at the beach as "mother" approaches we see a sea turtle on the beach in front of him. When the camera pulls out, the turtle is nowhere to be found. " Then someone else has put "This may not be a blooper, but just reflect the fact that only Brother could see the turtle, because it was dead." Okay... come on. All the justifying bloopers and continuity errors is getting pretty ridiculous but this is really just pushing it. Why not just say "The license plate in the next scene is different than the scene before because someone who is a criminal on the run could have sneaked over and switched license plates!!!". That's about the level some of these justifications are. If you have to justify to yourself a reasons why a continuity error or blooper isn't such, why not just keep it to yourself instead of trying to make it officially not an error? This is getting ridiculous.--HaloOfTheSun 06:16, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed, 100% --NandR|talk|contributions 12:09, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Also agreed. Any continuity error could be explained by an in-story hypothesis, but if there's nothing in the story itself to suggest that hypothesis, then it should stand as an error unless explained at some later date. (And even then, the "explanation" could just be retroactively fixing what originally was a continuity error.)--Schoolmann 14:08, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• fwiw, the turtle being dead never occurred to me until I just read it, and it's a damn sublime foreshadowing if true. Or/and, if FakeMom turns out to be behind the appearance of Claudia to BiB as well, maybe she was testing the water with the turtle. Combined with Claudia's imprinting of BiB's origins across the sea, Jacob's saying "staring at the sea" like it was an everyday occurrence & BiB's first guess that the game arrived from somewhere else, a visiting sea turtle could help feed a curious mind. Great theory material, and I was never that interested in Sayid's cat or the Kate's horse. I will admit I was surprised it vanished, as I hoped the 'World Turtle' myth or a metaphor in discussion was imminent. Duncan905 04:47, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• This is a repeat performance of "The Turtle Clan." There were turtles on the beach in a previous episode. They are a protected species and the producers just have to live with their presence when they come ashore or be thrown off schedule and wait. Next scene, the turtles have moved on and the beach is empty. I think the earlier appearance was at the beach camp; this may suggest that the set -- not necessarily the in-universe location -- is the same as the beach camp set.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 15:19, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Statue

Removed "This episode asserts that the wells were built long before The Statue. However, in "This Place Is Death", after one of the time flashes, Sawyer finds a well to not have been built yet in a time period that The Statue existed." The episode makes no such assertion. There is nothing to suggest that the Island wasn't populated before Mother arrived, In fact there is a suggestion that it was - namely the existence of the Egyptian game. I know that is not conclusive but the point is that we saw a snippet of time on the Island. A lot will remain (forever) unknown.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:09, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Do we know for sure that the statue did not exist at this time? I can't tell one beach from another, and the Losties manage to go quite a while without knowing the statue is there. The Egyptian civilization predates the Roman, so I would expect the statue to be there first. I imagine it was a member of the Egyptian colony who gave Jacob's foster mother her duty. Perhaps the well that wasn't there in the past timeflash was dug after the wells dug by Jacob's brother and his cohort of Others. -PolarBearSkull 00:47, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• This would also explain why the statue is of a goddess and not a god. If they built it in honor of Mother, the statue's casting as Tarakwet makes much more sense.--Eliav Milelov Valtarov 02:30, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• A tribute to their mother would also explain it holding dual ankhs, which was an oddity. Duncan905 04:53, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • It's confusing, there seems to be an Egyptian culture on the Island both *before* and *after* the events in the episode. The Senet game comes from before Jacob and MiB's birth, yet Egyptians carved images of the Smoke Monster and hieroglyphics on the donkey wheel after MiB was transformed. The Statue wasn't seen in the episode, but it could've been on the opposite side of the Island (I was hoping the well-diggers would've been the Egyptian culture, but sadly they were all killed). That said, MiB, or someone in his employ, would have to rebuild that well at some point after the end of the episode, and it might've been rebuilt *after* someone comes and builds the big Statue of Tawaret. All-in-all, no evidence Statue *wasn't* around in this ep, and no evidence the wells weren't continuously built for a period of over 1000 years, statue or no. Especially since the chief Well-builder is immortal.--Tim Thomason 02:58, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

When did The Man In Black die?

All throughout this site i see people listing the mib as dying. Did i miss something, when did this happen. It was made very clear that Jacob can not kill him so he didnt die. He never died he was beaten until he was passed out and then when he floated into the stream his "body and manhood" were taken from him like the MIB says in 6x09. Jacob can not kill mib so he never died. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  03:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• The way it was edited, it seemed that the MIB broke his neck when Jacob through him in the water and floated lifelessly into the cave. Nothing indicates he *couldn't* kill the MIB, as they both aged 40 years and Jacob was the only one who drank the magic wine. The mother said that MIB wouldn't die, but that was when he was young and she intended him to be the Protector.--Tim Thomason 04:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• It really wasn't clear if he was dead as he slid down the chute. But maybe with her death her protection also died. Alatari 06:43, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• My read of what happened was that MiB was unconscious but still alive as he floated into the cave, and that his physical body died in the process that turned him from whatever he was into whatever he is, but that "he" didn't really die so much as become something else. Lemikam 07:44, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• MiB was and is not "dead", he was thrown into the source alive (though battered), he emerged without a body as Smokey, his body - soul missing was left behind as a shell and buried. We know MiB still lives. Surely this can't be in dispute.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:29, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• It would make sense if it mirrors the way MIB ended up looking like Locke. First they die, then the smoke monster takes their soul and appearance.--Rikdewinter 09:39, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I thought it was widely established before this episode that MIB and Jacob can't kill each other (loophole) but i guess people are still wondering. Well this episode cleared it up, mid-episode mother says she made it so MIB and Jacob can never hurt each other. Then after he killed mother MIB says to Jacob that he cannot kill him citing what their mother did. Jacob says he doesnt want to kill him. So what does he want to do think back to when jacob asked what would happen if he went into the light, mother makes it clear he WILL NOT die, he will suffer a fate much worse than death. So clearly Jacob intends to put this fate upon MIB, MIB never dies he suffers a fate much worse than death, he loses his humanity and his body (like he said to richard in 6x09). -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  15:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Exactly -- I agree. --Litany42 16:12, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • So if a crazy-woman says that her two children (not technically) can't kill each other, then it must be true. Not. I think Jacob and MIB could kill each other before Jacob was the guardian of the light, and before MIB was the smoke monster, but can't now, for obvious reasons: MIB is invulnerable, and Jacob uses the ash.--Rikdewinter 20:55, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • The writers have been rather lazy these days by AQ's using narrators. I think we need to take her magic word for it unless we know otherwise, such as there is nothing across the sea.--Lucky Day | msg 02:31, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Fake mother's death

Anyone else find it interesting that MiB killed his 'mother' in the same way that it's supposedly possible to kill himself and Jacob? (Stabbed her with the dagger before she could speak). Do you think it is the act of killing her with the dagger that has made it 'magic' or that it would just be another in-joke between Jacob and MiB to kill the other with the same dagger? On a related note, as the 'mother' seems to utter some magic incantation when initiating Jacob as the protector, could this be the reason why being killed before speaking is important?Winegum 03:41, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I don't know, the MIB seemed to be the only one who knew that, and that might just be from experience. Maybe, he's not sure how it works and once tried to get Dogen to kill Jacob (who is "like" his mother), and Dogen just assumed they act in the same way (granted, we don't know if it will work on a non-speaking MIB or not).--Tim Thomason 04:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• They made a point of going back to re-visit the line where they say "Don't let him speak" by offering up the explination that the person they are supposed to be going to kill can be very persuasive and that if you allow that person to talk to you, you might not finish what you started, they can talk you out of it.--WhyDidntUKnow 12:40, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Dogen having Sayid use the dagger and the MiB giving it to Richard to 150 years previous is a statement. Not certain if Dogen knew this incident but he must have known it was symbol. Jacob would have known.--Lucky Day | msg 02:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Dating and Language Issues

Where is this date from? People keep bringing it up on articles, but as far as I recall, no dates were mentioned in the episode. And it would be tough to mention 23 AD, because that was about 700 years before the AD/BC system was created...--Tim Thomason 04:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. Apparently it was a false spoiler going around. I think it's obviously not 23 AD. The fact that Claudia and her group were able to navigate the ocean on a large ship and spoke Modern American English (which has been around since about the 18th century) would lead me to assume that the events of the episode likely occurred sometime between 1750 and 1850. If Jacob was born as late as 1800 he still would have had plenty of time to bring other people to the island before the arrival of the Black Rock in 1845. --Supernik87 05:07, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure they were actually speaking English, we had some lines establishing they were speaking Latin... Kind of what they did with Naveen Andrews' Arabic in season 1. Why force actors to learn Latin? Yes, Ab Aeterno was in Spanish but Nestor Carbonell actually speaks the language. --LeoChris 05:14, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

They weren't speaking English. This was clearly a production device so the entire episode didn't have to be in subtitles. They both began speaking Latin and transitioned seamlessly into English without either flinching - clearly a production device for the audience. Latin was not spoken regularly, even among the educated, after 900 AD. The episode defiently takes place before then.--User:Jeffcutt72

I think the beach the mother washes up onto at the beginning is Jacob's beach, before the building of the statue of Tawreet. I think that wide shot as she comes ashore establishes that.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:09, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I saw on local LA TV Tuesday morning that this episode was set around 14th c. AD. I don't know how or whom they got it from but it was during a Allison Janney interview so I assume it was based in some fact. Not enough for canon but a ballpark guess. --Liberal elite 07:19, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Roman classical times. Date irrelevant now. Probably still not the first people on the island. Given the hieroglyphs on the box of Senet this game may have predated Claudia's arrival and Mother may have found it and left it for Boy in black (it may come from her shipwreck too of course). Pretty sure that even by C14 classical Latin was no longer spoken anywhere as a language of a nation.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• The timing on the entry regarding Classic Roman Times needs more clarification. It's more likely that this is some time no later than 100 B.C. The donkey wheel cave having hieroglyphics in it implies an Island visit from the Egyptians, which time ended by 30 B.C (assume at least 50 years to build the statue of Tawaret). Also, the Egyptians made stone carvings depicting the smoke monster so they definitely had to have come after he was released from the Source. However, the presence of the Senet game would imply that the Egyptians had already been there (which seems more like a production error in timing). An interesting point from this is that the Egyptians were likely manipulated into finishing the donkey wheel for MiB as he and his people did not finish it but it was clearly finished at some point. This would be an interesting story to see but I doubt we ever will. --Portnoyd 12:02, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Due to the spoken Latin in the episode, the earliest it could be would be 1000 B.C. as that's, from what I can gather, the earliest Roman civilization appeared. The era label would probably be best served with Ancient Roman Times (approximately 1000 B.C.). Any earlier would be inconsistent with the first appearance of spoken Latin in the world. --Portnoyd 11:44, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Another consideration is the name "Jacob", which is Biblical. I don't think any Romans would have named their child Jacob until after the Romans were Christianized. Moreover, there would be Roman Christians who would be traveling by ship, which probably makes them established members of Roman society, and which places the earliest likely date this could have occurred in the third or fourth century A.D. I imagine "Mother" was Egyptian and from a group that arrived on the island well before the Romans. Her culture probably built the statue of Tawaret and the other ruins before they ended up destroying one another (likely with Mother's assistance). Only issue is whether this means there had been a smoke monster before the Man in Black got tossed in the cave. Perhaps the MiB was not the first person to get tossed into the light, and Mother's people have previously slain a smoke monster. --Marksman1 13:03, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Very good point about the Christianity. However, as it was never specified that Claudia was an established member of Roman society, she certainly could have been on the ship as a slave, I think it could easily have been as early as the second century A.D. However, if "Mother" was Egyptian who arrived well before Roman Civilization, then she probably wouldn't have known Latin. She almost had have either come from Rome, or at least come from a place where Rome had significant influence. Her style of dress also resembles Hollywood's depiction of Roman women more than it does Egyptian women. Clamshell 14:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • There is a Jacob in the Bible, but that doesn't make the name Christian in any sense. The name is, in fact, literal Hebrew words used as a name. The book of Genesis could go as far back as 500 BCE or more. Thus, Claudia could have easily been a Hebrew woman in the Roman Republic or Roman Empire before or after the turn of the fist millennium CE. Or she could just be a Roman, Greek, Anatolian, Egyptian, etc woman who both spoke Latin and had ever heard the name Jacob from a Hebrew person or text. At that time, names and words were easily traded between cultures, since people were constantly being conquered, enslaved and otherwise intermingled. Mistergone 16:01, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • They purposely dressed her in a colorful unslave-like outfit, and I don't see why a pregnant slave would be taken aboard a ship. If she were a Hebrew, Greek or other person who spoke Latin as a second language, they would have spoken in Hebrew or Greek, not Latin. Mother could speak Latin because she's the Guardian, just like Jacob knew how to speak perfect Korean, English, Spanish, and lots of other languages that didn't exist when he was born. As far as I know, Romans didn't give their children Hebrew names until after Rome became Christianized. Even if Claudia were from 1st century Rome, the statue of Tawaret would predate her. --Marksman1 17:07, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • "Jacob" doesn't necessarily point to a date after the birth of Christ; it's Hebrew, & the Romans & ancient Hebrews were in contact as early as the 2nd C. BCE. She might have been a Romanized Jew (or she & her husband had some personal contact with Palestine/Judea & its culture), which explains her name, the Latin, & Jacob's name. (And the use of Classical Latin provides another rough date for the events of this episode, since it was spoken from no earlier than 200 BCE to AD 300 at the latest. Language changes: surviving Roman inscriptions earlier than 200 BCE are not easily readable as Latin, while by AD 300 the spoken language of the common man had diverged enough from Cicero's Latin to make it unintelligible to a Latinist.) -- Llywrch 23:14, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • The Latin equivalent of Jacob is Jacobus or Iacobus and its derived from Hebrew. It is estimated about 10% of the population in Classical Roman times were Jewish. The New Testament often refers to Romanized or Hellenized Jews as simply Greeks, depending on the context.--Lucky Day | msg 02:42, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Damon Lindelof was addressing the 50 year old reference Jack made about the age of Adam & Eve's clothing and stated, "The other theory that I would like to throw out there is that Jacob and his mother were just expert craftsmen. They made those clothes on that loom so well, it would appear that they were only 50 years old in decomposition, when in fact it's several thousand." While not giving a specific date, it seems that a date of 2000 years ago fits with that statement. I know it's not definitive so don't point out that people toss off generalizations like that all the time, I just think Lindelof would be rather careful about throwing out random numbers in interviews at this point. This is just some additional info for the discussion! http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/exclusive-interview-lost-producers-damon-lindelof-and-carlton-cuse-talk-across-the-sea --JDMCMAMC 00:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• An interview with Mark Pellegrino cites the date as 43 A.D., which, if true, means the Egyptians had to have been there prior to Across the Sea's events... which doesn't make much sense when they made carvings referencing the smoke monster before he was created? If they arrived after, then that doesn't fit in with the timing of Egyptian civilization.--Portnoyd 16:53, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• I'm on board believing Mother was not the first person on the Island. Her powers and magic suggest that guardianship was passed on to her by someone! She couldnt have built the Statue alone and I reckon it may predate her as would a lot of the other Egyptian themed stuff. That might mean either the ancient smokey drawing indicates how she knew about "a fate worse than death" because it had already happened before or Jacob painted the Egyptian smokey in his spare 2000 years. If Smokey has happened before the Q is how do you get rid of it (unless there are at least 2 smokeys on the Island!)    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   17:02, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Latin/English

All these people, including Mother, Jacob and MiB, were all speaking Latin the entire time, correct? I feel like the transition into English was just to not have to do an entire episode with actors speaking Latin and the audience reading subtitles. It would be absurd for English to be around in the form they spoke it at the time it seemed to be (Mother being godlike could manage it, but not Claudia). So, they were talking Latin, right? Consensus or confirmation? -- Clayburn talk contributions email 05:37, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Yes. It's the same reason all the aliens on Star Trek speak English, even to each other. I, for one, think it would have been great if the whole episode had been in Latin. It would have been a really bold move, and I bet that if anyone had thought of it, the network probably wouldn't have let them do it.--Frakkin Toaster 05:53, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • But if they do that, everyone would be making fun of Allison Janney's non-Roman accent or Ryan Bradford's pronunciation of illuminatus or the generally disjointed Latin translations of the language.--Tim Thomason 05:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • Or Shatner's Esparanto.--Lucky Day | msg 09:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Mother and Claudia were definitely speaking Latin, but Jacob, MiB and Mother would have probably spoken in whatever language was most comfortable for Mother, which need not have been Latin. As the current Guardian of the Island, we know she could be potentially thousands of years old, so she might have spoken any number of ancient languages, though my money is on Ancient Egyptian. --Marksman1 14:13, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • The fact that Latin was the language the Others learned to speak with each other might be a clue that it is Jacob's native language. However, it's possible that Jacob may have been brought up speaking Egyptian but used Latin to communicate with Latin-speaking visitors to the Island (with Latin being a hold-over lingua franca among Jacob's crew). Another thing to consider is that BiB spoke with his mother's visage - would he have been able to do so without speaking Latin?EdwardLost 20:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • I don't think so. Hurley had to speak Spanish to speak with the ghost of Isabella. That implies that ghosts communicate with the language they're familiar with, although, as a "whisper," Claudia might've taught herself Egyptian watching and listening to her kids and her killer over those 13 years.--Tim Thomason 02:49, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• The trope of speaking a few subtitled lines to establish that the characters are using a particular language and then flipping into English to make it easier for the viewers is well established. The best example I can think of is in Hunt for Red Oktober where the focus went tight on the speaker's lips and then panned out again at the language switch. I did think it was inelegantly done in Across the Sea; I had an instant of "wha? why did they stop?" -PolarBearSkull 03:15, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, if you watch it again, you will even notice a specific sound effect for the transition.--Jackdavinci 15:33, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

kind of Latin?

On a different note on the Latin, could anyone tell what kind of Latin it was? Was it classical Latin or Renaissance? I understand that the Latin that became popular in the latter period was distinctly different because the speakers unearthed all these tenses that were never popular in the Vulgar.--Lucky Day | msg 09:20, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Although I'm no Latin scholar, and some people are probably going to think this is a joke, my guess is it's going to be Hollywood Latin. Clamshell 14:17, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• "I didn't know Gloria was sick." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EdwardLost (talk • contribs) 2010-05-12T15:15:48.

Since Latin died as an everyday language long before recordings, there is no real way to know how it was "supposed" to be pronounced. Further, there is no real way to determine how the language accents, etc. developed or were regionalized. In other words, I don't think we can determine when this time period is based on their Latin accents... --Litany42 16:17, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Just as Spanish speakers complained about Richard's accent in his centric, not being correct for that area. I agree with caulking this up to Hollywood Latin. Latin and Greek were the most popular languages during the Roman Empire era around 1800 years ago, also Persian, Arabic, Hebrew, etc., in other parts of the world. Iamlost23 01:12, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• I was hoping we could tell something from the text like conjugation or tenses. Hollywood Latin sounds good. Getting a Latin translator is probably as difficult as calling a local Catholic priest.--Lucky Day | msg 02:08, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• I think Hebrew was a dead (liturgical) language at the time. I'm not sure if Arabic was widely spoken at the time. Aramaic was probably more common.EdwardLost 16:22, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• The problem with the PTB on Lost selecting a specific flavor of Latin is simple: beyond the variants preserved in literary works, much about the different types of Latin spoken in ancient times -- Old Latin, Vulgar Latin, the dialects which became the proto-Romance languages of Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian, etc. -- is hypothetical. Then there is the matter that the language experts in the audience would be arguing over whether the given details intended to Claudia was speaking, say for sake of argument proto-Sicilian, were correct for that dialect. And lastly, after all of that work, would anyone actually notice these details. -- Llywrch 03:58, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Speech patterns

It seems to me the writers based the way that Jacob, the MiB and their mother speak is due to Latin. Notice the formal use of "Yes" all the the time instead of a different choice of words. Even the kids did good. It seems to me a lot of thought and practice by all the actors went into this.--Lucky Day | msg 09:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The cave

What modern location does it tie to? We don't know? I wikified four names as possible articles at MiB; any suggestions? Alatari 05:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I'd assume the cave is where the wheel is? Or the Temple?Cashisrock 06:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

See what I mean? I don't know. Did the Temple have a steam flow into it? The wheel and the well was being dug at another location or Mother wouldn't have noticed it. It would seem the Cave extends laterally across a length of the island for MiB to be able to access the light away from Mother. Alatari 06:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Cave of light
• source
• island heart (island's heart or heart of island)

Thanks more knowledgeable editors for adding those! Alatari 07:12, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Game rules

I think there is something very important about the statement by Jacob that they are playing the board game by MiB's rules. A simple statement with far reaching consequences to the rest of their relationship? Alatari 05:49, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I think there are two ideas here; either Jacob is a total dolt and just accepts everything that is said to him OR he has a very deep inherent sense of how things are going to play out for the island --NandR|talk|contributions 12:28, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

UQ Discussion

Error in UQ

"Why did she kill Claudia?" should be removed from Unanswered Questions, as Jacob's mom tells us herself. She didn't want Claudia to take the twins back to the village where they'd be corrupted. Haplo781 05:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hm, maybe, maybe not? Is she necessarily telling the truth?  Robert K S   tell me  08:17, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Also because she 'loved them' - IE was lonely and wanted some kids. --Integrated (User / Talk) 11:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Mother UQs

I think a lot of the Mother UQs can be answered if you understand that she was Jacob before Jacob was Jacob. By that I mean that she came to the Island as a candidate to replace a protector of the Island and "won" the job. She took Jacob and MIB because, like Kelvin, she needed a sucker to keep saving the world after she was gone. She needed candidates. She doesn't age because that is one of the perks of the job. Another perk of the job: some kind of godlike powers, like the ability to prevent one from killing the other in perpetuity. The only really unanswered question is probably never going to be answered: Where did she come from? It's a good question, but then you have to ask who brought her there as a candidate, and what his deal is, and it's neverending. We're not going to get any further back than we did tonight.--Frakkin Toaster 06:03, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

So much for explaining everything with simple science like was hinted at early in the show.... Maybe if there is a sequal we'd go earlier than her? Alatari 06:26, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Where did she come from? She tells us she came from her mother. With three episodes left in the show, you're not going to get a better answer.
• Why does she not age? The protector of the Island has the ability to prevent aging. We've seen this before between Jacob and Richard.
  • Did she pass this on to Jacob and Man in Black? Yes.
• Why did she kill Claudia? So that Claudia wouldn't take them to "the people".
• How did she "make it" so that Jacob and the Man in Black cannot kill each other? She obviously has powers, this should be enough for us to infer from.
• Where is the cave of light located in modern times? No reason to assume that it's current location has changed or is significant.
  • Heavy disagreement. It maybe exactly where one of the other island locations is sitting and the reason it was chosen. It is the island's heart. Alatari 08:00, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Who finishes the construction of the frozen wheel? The only person left who would want to. We have no reason to think it wasn't MiB.
• What is the nature of the manifestation of Claudia? Explained by Michael's ghost.
  • Why can only the Boy in Black see her? He's special. Similar to Hurley.
    • I thought he could also be insane like his mother.--Lucky Day | msg 09:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• How was Mother able to kill the people on the Island and destroy and fill in the well? We know she has powers, clearly this is one of them.

 Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• She didn't pass on her agelessness to MIB, only to Jacob. She intended to pass it to MIB, "when it was time," but he left and she was forced to make Jacob the candidate. That much seems obvious in the episode. MiB's agelessness is purely from his Smoke Monster-status. Jacob was able to seriously mess up MiB two times, and probably killed him the second time. I think that's proof that they could kill each other, despite what the Mother says.--Tim Thomason 08:31, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. Either way, I don't think we'll be getting a definite answer to that one.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  08:58, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Could Mother be MIB? The way the village was destroyed is similar to what MIB is capable of doing. Also, maybe all this time MIB is the one protecting the island and Jacob's purpose is to keep him from leaving. It appears that Jacob has no powers other than preventing the death of candidates but MIB can cause all sorts of damage.Crazyoldben 13:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Bunch of UQ removals explained

1. Why does Mother say thank you - a) she's tired (she said so), she wants to die. b)He helped her see who was her rightful successor (she says so).
2. What is Mother's "nature"? What does this mean. If the Q is "Is she a witch?" -ask it.
3. When: well they speak Latin. Claudia is dressed in a sorta Roman dress, the baskets on beach and the "others" look kinda Roman. So classical Roman times is the best any of us will ever get.
4. Where is the cave? Really - the answer is, its hidden somewhere on the Island. I hope Jack can't find it!
5. Turn into Smokey - did you watch? MiB went in, a moment later he came out. In our times he says he is Smokey. His empty body was left by the creek. We know "Jacob took his body and soul - well that is just what we saw. All the bits add up.
6. Special - she calls him Special because to her he is "special". In TV shows that is what mothers say to their favorite child! (and see Jimbo above)

• I added this one. I think it was originally, Why does mother call the Boy in Black special. Being "special" is an important concept on this show, just as Walt is "..a very special boy" (not Hurley). If you check the links on "Special" they take you to the Season 1 Ep 14 episode that is Walt centric (sounds like we neeed a new category and a disambiguation link). The UQ is similar there, "In what way is Walt special?" so I think its a legit add. The episode seems to hint that Mom thinks that the BiB is her chosen successor and Jacob picks up on this. His ability to lie and pick things up like weather, Senet rules (and seeing ghosts) are all indicators this is important.--Lucky Day | msg 01:36, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• Regrettably Walt's alleged specialness turned out to be completely unimportant and was "dropped" as a dramatic tool. Did he ever "do" anything special. (except scare the bejeesus out of some ppl - and that may not have been him anyway. If it is relevant then you seem to have answered your own question anyway - weather, rules, lier. Maybe because he is a nascent industrialist. It just seems the more I think about it that his "specialness" is the favoritism of a mother for a child and doesn't really have any profound meaning. Obviously both the twins turn out to be very "special", but not in the way Mother was saying.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   05:37, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

And see the rest of the answer above by Jimbo    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   12:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

And More:

1. Where was the Island when Claudia's ship was wrecked? - er in the Ocean, do you expect Lat and Long?
2. Why did Mother kill Claudia? - She explained - because she would take the boys to be with the bad people and corrupt them so there wld be no one to protect the source
3. Why did Mother want the Man in Black to stay on the island? - see above, and becoz he had become an industrialist who was going to use and steal the "light"
4. Who finished the building of the frozen wheel? How did the frozen wheel cave become so cold? Neither are issues raised by this episode but at the least NiB had 1500 years to dig and build
5. How does Jacob get his powers if they weren't explained to him? Who says. Maybe she told him bedtime stories for 20years.
6. How was the Man in Black able to see his dead mother? He is "special" Ghosts appear to ppl on the Island a lot. That has been explained.
7. "Why can't Jacob lie?" Because he is honest! Mother may have said to Boy in Black "can't" but she may as well have said "Doesn't". This is not a mystery it is the whole basis of the brothers. In general terms J is "good" and won't lie, MiB is bad and lies all the time.
8. "What is the source?" Given that much of the episode was an attempt to address this exact issue my tendency is to be sarcastic and say "Watch the episode!" Fortunately there is a succinct article here on Lostpedia which accurately answers the Q The Source.

   Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   16:27, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I would even add that once he drank the wine, he absorbed some knowledge. His gaze changed to one of some understanding--Xocgx 20:26, May 12, 2010 (UTC).

• Chuck, you claim that Jacob is simply honest. I submit to you that it is more than that: Jacob is incapable of lying. Mom claims that being able to lie is part of what makes his brother special. But more importantly, when Jacob returns from visiting him at the other people's camp 30 years later she calls him out on this. His response is a deliberate "you know where I've been."--Lucky Day | msg 04:32, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• I stick with it. They are just kids. But their personalities are spelled out as they play Senet twice and each talk to Mother twice. BiB is an OK kid but he tends to dishonesty and obfuscation and mistrust (dont tell mum, she'll take it away, I know the rules, if J is honest then what about me etc) whereas Jacob is "yeah I love you so BiB has found a game", he's going to leave, why do you love him more. These are issues within the ambit of how normal people are. We don't need supernatural explanations. BiB/NiB makes a choice (to join the others, to escape) J makes a choice (to stay with Mother despite the "problem" and to accept responsibility despite misgivings.) These are human choices.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   05:54, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• "Do you expect Lat and Long?" No, but I did hope to foster some intelligrent discourse on how a bunch of Romans got to an island we normally think of as being in the South Pacific.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:33, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • Lets be realistic. a plane crashes on the island. It's in the wrong ocean for the Sydney LA flight. We have lived with that for 6 years. Have we had an answer, will we get one? No. Does it matter? No. This is the end, the Island moves about (maybe). To suggest that this issue matters when there are so many others that do matter to the dramatic arc is to raise false and unnecessary hopes. Amen.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   19:30, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • What do you mean "maybe"? The Island moves. Hawking confirmed this in season 5.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  20:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • The fact that the Island moves is one of the great mysteries of the show. That sounds like an "unanswered question to me."--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • The fact the Island moves is the answer to your question. Why it moves is a theory for another page, not this episode. We also know that the shipwrecked castaway other people survivors were looking for the source of the strong magnetism, the way that Rousseau's science like people were curious about radio tower call. History tells us that the Romans were fascinated by lodestones so how they find it can be inferred in the kind of people they are. I was hoping it was the Chinese who dug those wells using their exciting new invention, the compass.--Lucky Day | msg 02:16, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

UQ Cave location or other question

Is it's unknown location a relevant UQ? Maybe that's the wrong UQ... Maybe the question should be what other island location now sits upon the cave and stream entrance? Ideas, comments? Alatari 09:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I think that maybe the Temple was built on top of the cave, and that the stream feeds the spring in the Temple.MarkFunk 15:52, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • That's the idea that I thought and did the water become tainted for a bit when the Smoke Monster came out?--Lucky Day | msg 05:21, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Other UAQ

"*How come Jacob was able to leave the Island, but the MIB was not?"

• Removed. Not likely answerable - FakeMom stated that no matter what MiB would never leave the Island. Jacob did not receive the same prophecy/declaration of impossibility. That's about all we're going to get. Same for "how come she made them immortal/can't kill each other". With precious little story time left, I think we should be careful about "why" questions & keep an eye on what we're likely to have answered & resolved. Also, Jacob leaving the Island isn't raised in this episode. Duncan905 22:26, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think we know why. Jacob has powers (political powers!) like his mother since he drank the wine and the MiB has been fate-worse-than-deathed.--Lucky Day | msg 02:28, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Then that would make it a UAQ. Based on this episode, the MIB was the intended protector, and as such he was 'not allowed' to leave the Island. However, Jacob became the official protector, and he was still allowed to come and go as he pleased. Valid UAQ. In terms of 'likely answered' questions in the long run, I'm going to posit that 90% of all Qs won't be answered. -- LordTBT ^Talk! 08:04, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
    • At the least we need to do better than "How come?" And I do recognize the oddity the UAQ points out. I just don't feel the episode itself raised the question in relation to Jacob, it only established via Mother's declaration MiB would never leave. Also, being barred from leaving is not stated by Mother to be related to her desire to make him Protector. While it bears out that Mother chooses Jacob second, to say "the Protector must remain on the Island" is a supposition that can't be used to support the question.

Removing again, with this proposal: add an UAQ to MiB's page (but please use "Why is it that?") and possibly one to Jacob's article such as "How is it that Jacob is able to leave the Island, while still remaining its protector?" Duncan905 18:44, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

AQ Discussion

Who are Jacob and his nemesis?

• They are brothers--Lucky Day | msg 08:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

What is the Man in Black's real name?

• Turns out it's likely he does have one.--Lucky Day | msg 09:38, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • You mean doesn't have one, right?--WhyDidntUKnow 12:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

What is the Smoke monster? Why does he need a body? How did the Man in Black become the Smoke Monster?

• The Man in Black was killed in a fate worse than death when his brother Jacob threw him into the light source. He needs a corpse to assume someone else's identity. When their mother passed over protection of the Island, Jacob may have understood how to trap him there by turning him into the Smoke Monster.--Lucky Day | msg 09:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• The MiB wasn't killed, he simply suffered a fate worse then death.--WhyDidntUKnow 12:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • you are right he wasn't killed - the twins are not capable of doing that harm to each other. That leads me to another thought about an AQ...--Lucky Day | msg 01:46, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Why does the Man in Black want to kill Jacob so badly?--Lucky Day | msg 01:58, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• Not only does the MiB want to leave the Island but Jacob is responsible for turning him into the Smoke Monster, a fate worse than death according to Mother.--Lucky Day | msg 01:58, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

What was the cave for? Who are Adam and Eve in the Cave? What is the deal with the stones that Jack found on them? Why did the late Christian Shephard lead Jack to the cave?

• They are not a married couple from 50 years ago as presumed, but the dead bodies of the the Man in Black and his adopted mother where Jacob left him centuries ago. The cave was once their makeshift home where they hid from the newly arrived survivors. The stones in the pouch are from the original Senet game Jacob and his brother to play. The Man in Black said they needed water 2 episodes ago when he assumed Jack's father's identity but clearly he wanted to show him his corpse as well.--Lucky Day | msg 08:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

What are the wells for? Are Dez' well and the Orchid Well related?

• The people that brought Jacob and the MiB's mother were looking for the source of electromagnetism and according the the MiB they had or learned ways to manipulate it. The MiB told his mother that they indicated different ways to find the source and they were going to install wheels that could let him leave the Island.--Lucky Day | msg 09:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• The wells were an attempt by the MiB and the people who brought him to the Island to find and understand the areas of the Island where metal behaved strangely and at the same time were an attempt to find the source of the Island. The MiB was trying to find the source to install a mechanism, the frozen donkey wheel, as a means to leave the Island. The wells are in fact all related in this way.--WhyDidntUKnow 13:03, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Was the Man in Black's mother actually crazy? Was she like Danielle Rousseau or Claire?

• She kidnapped the boys and murdered their mother. The MiB came to that conclusion after 30 years of living with the survivors and taking on their reasoning as his own.--Lucky Day | msg 08:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The MiB's mother has powers to kill a whole village and fill in a well singlehandedly. As much as she feared them however, she only did this when the MiB explained the purpose of the wells, 43 years after they arrived.--Lucky Day | msg 09:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Jacob can't lie (but he did learn how not to give a straight answer when he became an adult).--Lucky Day | msg 09:32, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

How come Richard doesn't seem to age? Why can't Jacob be killed? How is "Flocke" is invulnerable?

• Jacob's and the MiB's mother seems to have powers that were passed on from her late mother, one of these is the ability not to age and another is to prevent Jacob and the MiB from harm one another. Jacob inherited these power when it passed on to him from her. He then bestowed Richard with agelessness. The MiB can't be harmed because his form is really that of the Smoke Monster. The MiB appearing as Locke managed to use a loophole to get Ben to kill Jacob. It seems something similar happened when the MiB killed his own mother.--Lucky Day | msg 09:50, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • As far as I'm aware, there was no restriction that the MiB couldn't kill his foster-mother, so he wouldn't have needed a loophole.--Gredge 15:53, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • I don't disagree but I thought it was worth mentioning. It may not because it was her that keeps them from harming each other. It makes you wonder if the restriction then is only limited to each other (beyond pulverizing each other), Jacob could be harmed otherwise (like by Richard), and the only thing saving the MiB is that fact that he's made of smoke.--Lucky Day | msg 01:39, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Why do the Others hold Latin in high esteem? Why does Ilana address Ricardo in Latin and ask him if he is Ricardus?

• It is the native language of Jacob and his brother.--Lucky Day | msg 02:12, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Old game found on beach

In the first season, Locke finds a copy of backgammon "one of the oldest games in the world" on the beach. In this episode, the MIB finds one of the oldest games in the world on the beach. Both have white and black pieces.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:12, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Television history

If anyone knows of any live-action shows which have had an episode where none of the main characters have appeared in new footage, please post it here. I strongly suspect Lost has made television history tonight by doing what they've done. Although, I'd like to note that "live-action" is an important qualifier as there was an episode of Superman: The Animated Series which didn't feature any of the three "main" actors.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  06:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

That's a bit of gray area. Depends on how you define main. There's names for this: Day in the Life, Death in the Limelight, Villian Episode and Lower Deck Episode see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ADayInTheLimelight Alatari 06:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

There is always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_to_the_Unknown Which features none of the regualar Dr Who cast whatsoever. (sorry to burst your bubble) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by F3r613 (talk • contribs) 2010-05-12T01:53:25.

• Darn, oh well.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:19, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • There was also an episode of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, "Genies and Grecians and Geeks, Oh My" that featured no Iolaus and only a very brief mention of Hercules, and centers on recurring characters Autolycus and Salmoneus. Given that the two characters appeared just as often in Xena: Warrior Princess set in the same "era," it bared just as much relevance to that series, making it an even odder "episode with no main characters."--Tim Thomason 08:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

MiB's Wheel

Was the wheel that he created supposed to be the Frozen Donkey Wheel? I got this impression at first, although the wheel seemed to be oriented vertically rather than horizontally, and there were no Hieroglyphs on it. However it seems like there is a connection there. If it IS the same wheel, who put the Hieroglyphs on it? If it is a different wheel did someone try and do exactly the same thing thousands of years earlier? --MisterThou 06:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

In design, the wheel was identical. It was incomplete and was leaning up against the wall of the tunnel. It is unclear if this was the very same wheel, though. The Man in Black never got a chance to finish the wheel's installation before the tunnel was filled in and his people were wiped out.  Robert K S   tell me  06:48, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• He made a statement that a bigger wheel was going to be placed somewhere else. I think we can comfortably assumed this was a prototype of the FDW before Mom buried it with her own two hands.--Lucky Day | msg 09:59, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's cold under the Orchid. Not cold where they were with the wheel.--Pittsburghmuggle 11:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

If his plan was to use this wheel to escape - why hasn't he yet ? --Integrated (User / Talk) 13:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Who says he hasn't? Maybe he tried, and it didn't work, or because he's now smokey he can't do it himself, he has to trick someone else into using it. Maybe somebody named Benjamin Linus. Clamshell 14:39, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• You are right the first time. He's been fate-worse-than-deathed and has to hatch an elaborate, 1850 year plan to try first, before he can launch another 150 year plan.--Lucky Day | msg 02:26, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

A tentative name for the Allison Janney character?

She's "the Witch." She's a mysterious, powerful old woman with magical powers that bely her otherwise frail appearance. She has all the trappings of the old "witch of the woods" archetype. Not necessarily strictly accurate, I concede, but then, the Man in Black isn't really a "man" either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lemikam (talk • contribs) 2010-05-12T02:49:18.

• I think the casting was Woman I. The recap at ABC's website just calls her Mother.--Lucky Day | msg 08:17, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Moved to Mother talk page.
• "Mother"    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:15, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• It seems to be settled already, but where the boy's birth mother (Claudia) was clearly named, then Mother becomes a fitting moniker, especially where she was referred to as such throughout the episode. To glorify her, I have been calling her "the Other Mother" :) Jwilkinson 17:03, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Cultural References Discussion

• I removed thw Allegory of the cave (follows) as not being a direct reference, infact having a tenuous link at best. Interesting tho.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:14, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Allegory of the Cave: In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, prisoners are bound by chains, facing a wall which reflects light from a fire behind them. All they know are the shadows they see on the wall created by the others in the cave who walk in front of the fire. It is another strong argument for Nature vs. Nurture. Plato's suggests that escaping the cave would let one see the light, an analogy for the truth. We can never leave the cave. Mother bound Jacob and MIB, however the cave seems to hold the light, a reversal of Plato's original story. The light is omnipotence. It is what everyone reaches for but noone will achieve because we are bound by the iniquities of mankind.

• Removed Jacob and Esau reference: It is required that Cultural References be direct - That means the thing or idea must be directly raised - like the cover of a book, or music played etc. Your reference is to the Bible which is not referenced. Esau is not referenced. The story is different. It is interesting but this is not an encyclopedia of vague similarities. Furthermore CC and DL have said there are no parallels with the bible. Lostpedia:Episode Manual of Style

• Jacob and Esau: In the Biblical book of Genesis, chapter 25, Jacob and Esau were fraternal twin brothers who were at odds with each other all their lives, much like Jacob and the Man in Black (although the Biblical Jacob was born after his twin). Both Jacobs were quiet, preferred to stay near home, and were the favorite brother of their respective mothers. (Religion and Ideologies)

   Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   16:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Lucifer: The reckless abandonment of authority by the Man in Black, and his choice/destiny to leave his home mimics Lucifer, the Morning Star. (Religion_and_ideologies)
  • Removed, much too speculative & Lucifer is not referenced by name. Also, Lucifer was cast down from heaven. He attempted to overthrow heaven as opposed to choosing to leave. Duncan905 20:58, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Yin Yang: Jacob and the Man in Black are revealed to be twins 'mirroring' the equal yet opposite forces in the Yin Yang. (Religion_and_ideologies)
  • Removed. Not a single reference to Taoism or classical Greek dualism for that matter either.--Lucky Day | msg 02:03, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Bad Twin

I keep seeing references to Bad Twin in the trivia page. I've been deleting them because I don't think they belong on the page, at least not in the form they are presented (I.e. The Man in Black is Jacob's "bad twin") as this means nothing and is referencing a non-canonical expanded universe idea. I'm going to go ahead and delete the reference again, but I'm putting up this discussion thread for discussion on the subject. Doughnutguy 07:18, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Should it be noted on the Bad Twin page, mainly that Jacob and whats-his-name are twins? It might imply that the writers intended all along for the mysterious leader of the Others and the Smoke Monster to be twin brothers.--Tim Thomason 08:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I think at this point, after what we learned in "Across the Sea", the best options for names to be used here are Boy in Black and Man in Black. "Bad Twin"? Huh? Just my opinion. Hatchbanger 18:11, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
• There should be some mention somewhere on the page. Clearly bad twins are a Lost theme that is revisited in this episode. Semi canonicity isn't an issue - simply note that the novel is semi-cannon. --Jackdavinci 15:39, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Knife

In the trivia section, someone mentions The Knife that killed Allison Janney is the same knife that MIB gave Richard, is the same knife that Dogen gave to Sayid, and is the same knife that Ben used to kill Jacob. I don't think it can be all these things - how did the knife get from Jacob's body to Dogen? I think the knife used to kill Jacob is a different knife than the one that has come all through history. Knife 1 - Used by MIB to kill "Mom", later given to Richard to kill Jacob, later given to Dogen to give to Sayid to kill MIB. Knife 2 - Nondescript knife carried by Flocke, given to Ben and used to kill Jacob. Possibly one of Locke's original knives he came to the island with on the plane. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bwallace (talk • contribs) 2010-05-12T10:40:02.

• Yes, all the knives are the same except for the one used to kill Jacob, which was one of Locke's hunting knives.--Jackdavinci 15:42, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

MIB: Born in the Caul

Notice the gunk on his head? I'll guess that's a reference to 'being born in the caul,' an event during childbirth mythologized to indicate a mystically special child. Like our friend, the MIB.

Pasted from the Wikipedia Childbirth page:

"When the amniotic sac has not ruptured during labour or pushing, the infant can be born with the membranes intact. This is referred to as "being born in the caul." ... In medieval times, and in some cultures still today, a caul was seen as a sign of good fortune for the baby, even giving the child psychic gifts such as clairvoyance, and in some cultures was seen as protection against drowning..."

The caveats: Yes, MIB ain't psychic per say, but he does acquire insider knowledge from ghosts, and is said to be the "special" one. (As far as protection against drowning goes, well that's up to your interpretation regarding life as the smoke monster.) And while this may be a medieval+ era myth, who says it wasn't true during Roman times? --Jacknicholson 15:48, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

The afterbirth/amniotic stuff on BiB's head is certainly not accidental, and the specialness is confirmed by FakeMom. But it can't stand as a Cultural Reference since it's not directly mentioned. Since it's an "omen" that apparently comes true, how about a Foreshadowing entry? Duncan905 21:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Recurring Themes

• "The brothers were 43 years old when they became ageless" How does anyone know their exact age? 43 is not a special number! (I think someone changed if form 42 before.) Dave92127 17:36, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • That's easy - we were told. The boys were 13 when they hunted for boar, and when we first see them as adults it was 30 years later.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   17:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • When were we told they were 13?--Jackdavinci 15:43, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
    • Gotcha. But why is this a recurring theme? Dave92127 20:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
      • If it wasn't quite their birthday after 30 years it might be a significant number (sic) but we can't say that for sure.--Lucky Day | msg 05:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• @Duncan905: "Jacob won't admit to his brother that Mother knows he visits him. (Deceptions and cons)" I don't have a big issue with this but I do question it's accuracy. MiB"Does she know you visit me?" J"She never asks about you" MiB "I'm sorry I asked about her". Where exactly is the the con or deception here. Furthermore for there to be a con or deception we would have to KNOW that she knows Jacob visits MiB. We can surmise it, but we don't know it.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   17:39, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • See below for more detail on how Jacob might not have been lying, but on the simple basis of 'Mother knowing Jacob visits' we do know. Saying "You know where." to Mother indicates Jacob has admitted visiting his brother before. Mother may never have ever asked about MiB first in their conversations, but Jacob was deceiving his brother for some reason. Personally, MiB's quick retort of "Well, I'm sorry I asked about her." says Jacob meant to irritate his brother & remind him of his choice to split the family, perhaps with the motive to change MiB's mind via regrets. Duncan905 17:53, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Removed

"This episode features only 3 main characters, thus breaking the record of "Dead Is Dead" which had only 4." No, it features zero main characters. We have consensus that if someone just appears in stock footage, it is not counted as a appearance ('cause for it to count the actor would have actually had to work on a episode, and they didn't). --Golden Monkey 18:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Actually it is counted as a character appearance. Kate, Jack and Locke appear in this episode, Evie, Matthew and Terry don't get credit on the Season 6 article for appearing though. At least, that's my understanding of it. --LeoChris 18:43, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

MIB's name

We believe that when MIB stabs "Mother" she calls him Jose. Check it out...--Fixsmith 20:15, May 12, 2010 (UTC)FixSmith

• One transcript on the web has: "Because I... I love you" as Mother's last words. --Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:25, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • We who? Where? Linky? --Lucky Day | msg 02:20, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Literary Techniques

• "Jacob protects the Island (and the outside world) from Smoke Monster, but it is Jacob who created him. (Irony)"
  • Removed. It's possible that Jacob's act created Smokey, but also speculation. Theories also discuss the Smoke Monster existing prior to Claudia's arrival; either trapped in the cave & released, or an aspect of FakeMom which manifested following her passing of her job to Jacob & Jacob's action. There is certainly irony in how things play out, but 'Create' is just too strong a word. Duncan905 21:07, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • Not sure this is irrelevent. Jacob clearly and deliberately fate-worse-than-deathed his brother into this state, as he couldn't kill him.--Lucky Day | msg 02:22, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
      • It's a relevant observation, *if* that act created Smokey. All we know for sure is Jacob agreed to protect the Source. Based on his talk with Ricardo he also seems to have taken responsibility for keeping Smokey on the Island. But taking on this additional burden could be spawned by guilt over either creating the Smoke Monster, or releasing the Smoke Monster from under the Island, or mutating that existing, ancient force with his brother. I'm all in favor of reinstating this if we're given confirmation we saw Smokey's birth. Duncan905 16:01, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• "Mother remarks to the Boy in Black that Jacob doesn't know how to lie. Years later, Jacob denies to his brother that Mother knows he visits him. (Deceptions and cons)  (Irony)"
  • Reinstated. This is a remarkable revelation about Jacob's character, though he may be following Mother's instructions. Either way it's a significant demonstration of human nature in Jacob, developing the storyline from him seeming to be a 'purely good' person. Duncan905 16:09, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
    • Except that Jacob does not say that. He says: "She never asks about you." Big difference.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:40, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
      • True. That is a deflection of MiB's question. However, Mother does show curiosity about MiB at the cave, and Jacob saying "you know" indicates repeated visits & admitting the same to Mother. Using 'never' would require that Jacob always initiated every conversation about him to be true. Admittedly possible, especially if he was searching for a way to be truthful, but unlikely in all practicality over 30 years. Mother seemed alarmed to learn of MiB's progress, indicating she had not been observing him directly which would eliminate the need to ever ask about him. If the "lie" is that questionable & is too much extrapolation from what Jacob literally said, then strike the first sentence and 'Irony', but Jacob was deceiving his brother, either as payback for splitting the family or upon Mother's instruction. For now I'll modify "denies" to "won't admit". Duncan905 17:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• @Duncan905: "Jacob won't admit to his brother that Mother knows he visits him. (Deceptions and cons)" I don't have a big issue with this but I do question it's accuracy. MiB"Does she know you visit me?" J"She never asks about you" MiB "I'm sorry I asked about her". Where exactly is the the con or deception here. Furthermore for there to be a con or deception we would have to KNOW that she knows Jacob visits MiB. We can surmise it, but we don't know it. - Further I think you are making a lot of unsupported assumptions. But anyway I still don't see the dishonesty, Its very much "she doesn't ask, I don't tell" - that may be somewhat dysfunctional but it isn't a lie.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   17:54, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Although I answered your repeated part in Recurring Themes above (you're correct relocating talk to that area), here's my response to what you say from "Further I think...": Jacob does indeed tell. He and Mother have discussed his visits before, because he says "you know where". It's not an assumption Jacob is deceiving his brother, with regards to Mother's knowledge of their visits. It was an assumption that he lied when he said "never asks," which prompted my modification to only be Deceptions & Cons. Duncan905 18:26, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Dating

No where in the episode does it date what has happened. Nor can I even believe the 2000 years ago talk.

• The dagger we see is quiet advanced for roman period
• Claudia's clothing may not be period
• The stone/box carving on the game do not make sense
• The engineering on the island to build the well is far too advance

I don't think it is accurate to say the timing is any more than 30 years pre black-rock era at best since this is the most confident we can be on the dating.

Cooldude 832 23:21, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? That dagger is very Roman of that era, and before. 2000 AD is not the Stone Age nor even the Iron Age (1300–600 BC). 2000 years ago there were elaborate buildings, cities, roads, colosseums, chariots, sculptures, ceramics, metal workings, jewelry, tiles, fabrics, tombs, castles, fortresses, pottery, cities, bath houses, aqueducts, furniture, WEAPONS, and many more, including ships that could cross the sea, elaborate weapons; from Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, Babylonia, Arabia, etc. Julius Caesar (b. 100 BC) was killed with such a dagger, This is an actual image of a Roman coin from 48BC [3]. Ancient Greek art and archeticture here: [4]. Have you ever watched the History or Discovery channels where they show many ancient archaeological evidence of civilizations? lol Iamlost23 00:20, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• Keep in mind that Jacob and MiB, being the only two people left on the Island, must have had time to build all the wells (in the case of MiB) and the statue of Tawaret by themselves.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  00:22, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• Other people have come to that island, as evident when "Mother" said she got to the island the same way Claudia did, by accident. So I'm sure there were many that came after Claudia's people, and before Richard. Iamlost23 00:26, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Here's an image of an actual ancient Roman helmet [5] and think of Sparta, here's a mosaic from 334 BC [6] look at the sophistication of that work. Iamlost23 00:39, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• • That makes perfect sense to me, Iamlost23. FWIW. Building on that theory, all of those Ancient Egyptian artifacts are explained by the arrival of ancient Egyptians. "Mother" could then be explained either as the last survivor of those Egyptians, or as a lone person who arrived between the Egyptians & Claudia. (This leads to another Unanswered Question: where did "Mother" come from? But even if everyone accepts that this is an Unanswered Q, I'd argue that it is one of very low priority, about the level of "Who was the first girl Sawyer had sex with?" Knowing the answer to either is never going to help us understand the series better. I can think of a half-dozen Unanswered Questions that will likely never be answered I'd rather have answered first.) -- Llywrch 04:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• More evidence of advanced engineering 2000 years ago, and that dress is so Roman. [7] Iamlost23 00:47, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
• I think the dating options for the Man in Black and Jacob would have been limited; there weren't any girls their age on the Island.  Robert K S   tell me  00:49, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • I love you Robert KS. And isn't Claudia's dress an indicator of the dates? --Dbarts21 01:53, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
    • You are wrong Bob. Mother killed them all.--Lucky Day | msg 02:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
      • Oh yeah, she would, wouldn't she?  Robert K S   tell me  04:14, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
        • Now you know the real reason Jacob has been bringing people the Island.--Lucky Day | msg 05:24, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• Mark Pellegrino revealed the year from his script in an interview, 43AD. [8] -- Xbenlinusx 19:49, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Wine

Two things about the wine:

The Wine Itself

The bottle is identical to the one Jacob gave his brother 1850, give or take, years later. Was it the same wine/bottle? I bring this up because several people saw significance in it in Richard's episode, and clearly this indicates some allusion to something more than wine. Did the MiB destroy something magical that could have let him leave or do it because it represented that incident. I thought people were reading too much into it in that episode but maybe they are not.--Lucky Day | msg 02:55, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• Interesting, but not consistent that would Jacob hand over to Smokey something apparently crucial to transitioning the job of Protector. Just prior, he is able to casually sip a cup & share the wine with Ricardo. This indicates that Mother's ritual worked because it was hers. Jacob, as new Protector, can develop his own system. Based on his leaving the Island & touching people to mark them as candidates, and his passive acceptance of death without having performed the ritual with the wine, Jacob did just that. Duncan905 16:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

The wine decantation incantation

What did Mom say here? Was it a magic spell or just a ritual?--Lucky Day | msg 02:55, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

The closed captions say: [Speaking Latin]  Robert K S   tell me  04:15, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Narro Latin? Does anyone have an audio link or a clip for it?--Lucky Day | msg 05:15, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

My best transcription from the audio is "Namo... atlanslook... rosay loground croteranand... sabut eeray... seet... rosay onoseram". I know that's not much help.  Robert K S   tell me  05:51, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• that's amazing Robert, for a whispered mumble - now where are the classical scholars? Mind you I think Allison Janney is our only hope of redemption.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   06:19, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Jorge has the script so maybe he will post the Latin to GJB if it's in there.  Robert K S   tell me  06:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well she's a serious actress - doubt that she ad libbed but she may have just made something up for herself, still there are just a few Roman era Goddess incantations that are still extant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Charles Kane (talk • contribs) 2010-05-13T01:34:40.

The glass bottle

Glass bottles like that were not only rare in 23AD, possessing one would have been a sign of wealth or royalty, as would silver cups. All the other items at Mother's cave are clay or stone. Who was Mother's predecessor, who bequeathed these items to her when she arrived by accident? Duncan905 16:28, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Would this be a reoccurring theme? Storyline analysis? Literary technique?

Something I've noticed about Lost after watching it for six years is that every time it appears a given person or group of persons has all of the answers about the Island, it eventually becomes clear that this person or persons know only a little more about the Island than the rest of us. Consider the following progression.

• In Season One, the answer seemed to lie with either the Hatch or the Others.
• In Season Two, we (the audience) learn that although there are some answers in the Hatch, those we know who are associated with it -- Desmond & Kelvin -- actually don't know much about the Island. Desmond has spent his time on the Island stuck inside the Hatch. Kelvin had spent some time outside of the Hatch, but clearly he knew little more than months/years of exploring the Island could tell him. But the answers seems to lie with the Dharma Initiative, who appear to be identical (at that point in the story) with the Others.
• In Season Three, we learn that the Dharma Initiative was not the same as the Others: their knowledge of the Island was limited, while the Others (who replaced the Dharma folk) have an intimate connection with the Island, & they must know more. However, when Locke & Linus visit Jacob's Cabin, we get the first hints that there remains much that even Linus doesn't know.
• In Season Four, this reveal is put on hold; understanding the Island takes backseat to the subplot of getting the Oceanic Six back to the Island. However, the likely person with all of the answers now appears to be the mysterious Richard Alpert -- unless there truly is a Jacob.
• In Season Five, the reveal continues on hold up to the final episode where we see Jacob for the first time. At this point, it would appear that if we knew more about either -- or both -- of these men, we would understand the mystery of the Island.
• So far in Season Six, we've discovered in turn that Richard & Jacob are still only a little more informed about the Island than the other possible folks to this point. Richard was the lone survivor of a shipwreck who has been following the instructions of Jacob faithfully, but may actually know less than Linus does about the true nature of the Island. And Jacob, who is supposedly the managing agent of the Island, he knows little about who his "Mother" is or where she came from, or even how his powers work. When we first meet him, Jacob appears to be a squatter inside a forgotten ruin, & after the flashback which explains his origins it is hard not to consider him little more than that. (If he had truly known the power of the Island, he wouldn't have sent his brother into The Source. It is unclear whether just before his death Jacob knew enough to feel remorse for his passionate act.)

It is like peeling away the layers of an onion; every question leads to another question, to quote someone who probably spent many long years learning this first hand. -- Llywrch 05:37, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

• ha ha ha. Of course, that is how a serial teev program works. Dickens (referred to in Lost a lot probably for this reason) had to do it too - because all his books were serialized and he wrote them in chapters each published each month (maybe week I can't remember). Its worse for DL and CC because they didn't originally have an end point. Mind you I think you are wrong about season 6. Jacob (and MiB) know heaps about the island and how it works, they just haven't told us. Jacob has devised elaborate tools (Lighthouse etc) MiB ditto (the Frozen Wheel) and they both probably understand time travel stuff. Mother knew heaps but how did she find out? She learnt - ditto J and MiB    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   06:07, May 13, 2010 (UTC)