(Ben calling Jack "John"?: new section)
(Ben calling Jack "John"?)
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I'm totally convinced that I wasn't just hearing things. Anyone else heard this?
I'm totally convinced that I wasn't just hearing things. Anyone else heard this?
--[[User:Stuartgr|Stuartgr]] 22:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
--[[User:Stuartgr|Stuartgr]] 22:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah! I thought the same. --{{User:Dee4leeds/sig}} 22:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:50, February 19, 2009


316 is the flight number for a flight in Ajira Airways. Ldude893 10:01, 12 February 2009

This is what is says: Flight type: One Way From: Los Angeles, CA To: Guam Departing: 1/21/2009 Select Flight: 316 (Name of Episode) 11:30am Adults: 10 Children: 0 I think since locke moved the island back, Ajira airways found it. User:BennyK95(UTC)

It may also be the new bearing that is needed to get to the island.--Deuce Dubbington XVII 21:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The time 3:16 appears on one of the clock's that Daniel Faraday compares after the payload arrives on the island in episode "The Economist".

4x03 Clock2

Freighter clock showing 03:16:23 in episode "The Economist"

--Lankeymarlon 01:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Also: The Airdate of the episode (18 February 2009) is the 49th day of the year in the Gregorian calendar and there are 316 days remaining. Probably just a coincidence but worth being mentioned ... at least in the Discussion- Section :) Haskar Madnome

Episode 5x07

Does it matter if the producers refer to this episode as 5x07? The 2/12 audio podcast on explains why, as trying to do so here could be considered a spoiler. --Makiwolf 21:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The production code will be 507, but we will still call it 5x06. They say on the podcast they've only done this once before with two season 1 episodes, although they don't specify which ones. I think they meant season 3, since "The Glass Ballerina" and "Further Instructions" were originally going to air the other way around.--Baker1000 21:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


Go look up the word and then think about Christian and Locke.--Deuce Dubbington XVII 21:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

What has this to do with 316, and what we know of it before it screens? ∇ϕ 09:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
The word "proxy" is used in the ABC podcast as a teaser to this episode.--Baker1000 14:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
John: "Are you Jacob?", Christian: "No. But I can speak on His behalf." rddswim 20:37, 17 February 2009 (EST)
Jesus was a proxy for our sin. He was the "power of attorney" so to speak for us at the cross. He took our sin upon himself and that sin was dead for us IF we have faith. This goes along perfectly with the 316 title of the episodeIyubyost 21:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave away his only child. Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." -John 3:16

Ldude893 02:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well they are in a church and supposedly Locke is in there as well.--Deuce Dubbington XVII 09:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

John sacrifices himself for the island and once returned he becomes ageless like Richard Alpert.--40calgal 23:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Items moved from theory page


Caravaggio. Doubting Thomas. 1602-1603. Oil on canvas. Sanssouci, Potsdam, Germany.

I think it's a Biblical reference: John 3:16 (New International Version) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Or some other Biblical verses?

John was the most devout of the apostles of Jesus, and was the first to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. I would be willing to say that John Locke is the most devout of all residents of the island considering how little he knows, truly blind faith.

Genesis 3:16 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (reference to the problems women have on the island bearing children?)

Exodus 3:16 16 "Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—a land flowing with milk and honey.' (reference to bringing the Oceanic 6 back to the island?)

Numbers 3:16 16 So Moses counted them, as he was commanded by the word of the LORD. (reference to the insistence that all 6 return to the island?)

OK, maybe I'm stretching - but I think the John 3:16 is right.

Something is wrong with the page

This is going to be unpopular, but can we please lock the article until the technical issue is resolved? All my edits keep disappearing and it's getting incredibly frustrating.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  03:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This seems like the best idea. Maybe just delete the page altogether and recreate it? -- COMPOSSIBLE  Talk  Contribs  04:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I like both of these ideas...whatever works is fine with me. It's counterproductive to just keep making edits when they'll just get reverted soon after. Bloodbath 87 04:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, it keeps saying I am removing edits, and I AM NOT! I am only adding to the page! --Xbenlinusx 03:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

What's happening, best I can tell, is that when you go to edit the page, it is working off of two or three edits previous, so that when you save your edit, everything that had been done in the previous edit is ignored (and thus removed) during the save.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:00, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Is that what's happening? I've had a minor edit repeatedly reversed--Pennyj 04:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

One of the SysOps protected then unprotected the page again and now it seems to be working. Thanks! :)  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I guess that would explain why the episode info I provided kept getting erased. I had assumed that other users were, for whatever reason, not getting those "editing conflict" messages. I figured it had something to do with the fact that quite a few of us are constantly editing within a few seconds from each other. It does seem to be fixed now. Dman176 04:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Same thing is happening now to me every time I try to make an edit.DraveShift 10:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

a rather interesting note to the Ulysses reference, i fund this quote only in german and will roughly translate it:

„Ich möchte ein Abbild von Dublin erschaffen, so vollständig, daß, wenn die Stadt eines Tages plötzlich vom Erdboden verschwände, sie aus meinem Buch heraus vollständig wieder aufgebaut werden könnte.“


„i want to create a realistic image of dublin, so complete, that if the city is one day wiped of the face of the earth, it could be fully rebuild by the words of my book."

in a way that is what john locke did with his note, because upon jack reading it the came back to the island, a place that vanished of the face of the earth right before their eyes.

there are tons of things that can be understood as juxtaposition ulysses <-> lost, for example the odysee, the finding back, even down to the naming of charakters after historical/biblical personalities.

i herby encourage everyone to read the book. and if not, at least look over the wikipedia page



Was the man who gave Jack his condolences, Tariq? Sayid's Commanding Officer. He sure did look like him. --     Nusentinsaino     talk    contribs    email   03:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Pretty sure it was a new character. (Not sure if we can mention his name yet, so I won't take any chances.) --LeoChris 03:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I'm pretty certain that was him. --LeoChris 03:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • It's a different character. This is Saïd Taghmaoui. I guess all Arabs look alike though? --Pennyj 04:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Please, hold back the racism. -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  13:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Although, funny story, he did play a Republican Guard officer in Three Kings (what's up, my main man?). Kind of a Sayid-like role, too; he was torturing Mark Wahlberg for a while. --Grahamdubya 15:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • (SPOILERS REMOVED) - please don't post info about unaired episodes. --Minderbinder 22:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Cheers for that...--Baker1000 11:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
      • The name of the man isCaesar. Hope the link works, he is the man on the photo that ben shows to sayid in Irak. He is supposed to be Nadias murderer.--Gelsias 22:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Nadia's murderer? Not according to this: Ishmael Bakir. --Minderbinder 22:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The plane

Would it really have that hard for the producers to pick a suitable aircraft for the flight? They went to a lot of effort to show B roll footage of a 737! Seriously. Jryden 04:08, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • 737-700ER has a range of 5,375nm which (barely) enough to go LAX-GUM at 5,291. In reality they probably wouldn't push it too much, but it isn't impossible. Rdicker 07:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The footage of the plane is all CGI. It would have cost a lot more to paint a plane with the Ajira Airways logo on it. Simo9852 07:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


The centric is definitely Jack...right? -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 04:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  04:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh sorry; I didn't see that discussion. -- CTS  Talk   Contribs 04:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Is it safe to say that this episode is actually a "Flashback" episode, not just merely "centric" per se? Dman176 04:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Flashforward, since landing on the Island takes place (essentially) after the events of the episode.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  05:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Well, the reason why I thought it was a flashback is because it follows the same basic format as "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and "Meet Kevin Johnson," how it basically begins in the present, then spends almost the entire episode revealing what happened to lead up to that point, then jumps back to pretty much exactly where it left off before the "flashback." The same thing happened in this episode: we saw Jack back on the island, then cut to black and said "36 Hours Ago." Dman176 06:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
      • I felt the first scene was a flashforward. --Crash815 06:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
      • Like every other episode this season the flash is at the beginning - in this case a Jack flash forward. --Jackdavinci 18:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

Removed the following UQ:

1.) Is Frank on the Island? - Applies to everyone else who was on the plane.

2.) Who is the man who gives his condolences to Jack at the airport? - A new character who also a passenger on the plane.

3.) What will happen to Desmond? - This is like asking what will happen next week? Or what will happen to Jack? Or Jin? --LOSTinDC 04:33, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

4.) When Ben is reading the book Jack asks him "How could you read that". Ben replies "Because my mother taught me" Being that Ben's mother died while giving birth to him, is this a slip, a joke or an implication that Ben's mother will reveal herself in a future episode? -This isn't an UQ but it deserves mention in some form. Maybe as part of the minor theme of Ben's secrets and lies through the episode. --Jackdavinci 18:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree it deserves mention. It's a cutesy stock reply but that doesn't change the fact that it couldn't possibly be true and fits Ben's essentially deceptive character. Robert K S (talk) 21:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Not a blooper

I removed the blooper about no 737 flying internationally to Guam based on "Northwest Airlines flying between Long Beach, CA and Guam, MP is a 737 with 124 seats" (Source), so it's obviously a possiblity and, therefore, not a blooper. I'm also removing: "Also, the plane crashed while someone was in the bathroom (this time it was Ben, back then it was Charlie)" as we have no evidence that Ben, who said he was going to give Jack privacy, is in the loo. He could just as easily be sitting in a different seat when the turbulance started as we don't see him again for the rest of the episode. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 05:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, if you listen to the episode, 316 is not a direct flight to Guam. Here is the transcript: WOMAN: [Amplified voice] This is the preliminary boarding announcement for Ajira Airways Flight 316, with service to Honolulu and Guam, departing from Gate 15. So the plane would not have to fly from LA to Guam, but rather LA to Honolulu.--Eyeful Tower 22:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • It's definitely not a blooper, but rather a new mystery, as we will likely be shown what happened to Ben and/or Lapidus in later episodes.--Halcohol 06:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

A Blooper?

  • When Jack and the rest of the party arrived at the church, it was night. Later we saw Jack in a bar, he made a phone call and went to see his grandfather. But in the facility we see that it's daytime. After he talked to Ray and came back to home, it's night again. We know that Jack has only 36 hours, so it's impossible to pass two nights in Los Angeles after they met Ms.Hawking. Isn't it a blooper? --Paintbox
  • Umm
First night At the church (hours : 0)
First day Jack goes to bar, then to see Ray, then back home (hours : 12)
Second night Jack sleeps with Kate (hours : 24)
Second day They board the plane in the morning (hours : 36)

Seems right to me? Integrated (User / Talk) 14:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Literary Techniques

Sayid replacing Kate as the prisoner is not juxtaposition, in fact I'm not sure what kind of literary technique it is --TeejK 05:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • It is a form of irony. --Whoisjohnwayne 12:37, 19 February 2009 (EST)
  • I removed the tag because it is definitely not juxtaposition, but it's not irony either. I'm unsure how to label it. Perhaps it should be moved to the cross-reference section. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 05:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I think it's an episode reference. Kajillion 06:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


Anyone know the name of the music that was playing while Ben was talking to Jack in church? Is it on one of the soundtracks? --Jonnyboy88 05:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • If you're referring to the score, I think that was some iteration of Ben's theme from the Season 3 soundtrack. Dman176 06:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

On that same note, does anyone know what song was playing in the DHARMA van that Jin was driving? It sort of sounded like The Grateful Dead, but I couldn't make it out. That would be incredibly awesome if it was indeed the Dead! Dman176 05:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I couldn't find it. The lyrics sound to me like, "yeah, you kissed him, feels so right. But you had another __(van? band?)____ pulled up last night". No joy on lyrics search. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 05:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Something tells me it's a Geronimo Jackson song Aranworld 06:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • You could very well be right. I don't know what Geronimo Jackson sounds like, but if they have a similar sound to the Dead, then it's probably them. Plus, now that I think about it, I seem to remember a recent podcast where Damon and Carlton said we'd hear a Geronimo Jackson song this season. Dman176 06:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Reccuring Themes

Although a minor detail, the article currently states "A white rabbit with black spots appears during a magic show Ray is watching." The rabbit in question is actually a Dwarf Hotot, a breed characterized by being white all over except for a black ring around each eye. Must be an homage to Richard Alpert, the man of ageless eyeliner. Iburnedthemuffins 20:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, please feel free to add to article as long as you have some certainty. Informed precision should always replace uneducated guesses when it comes to description. Robert K S (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Overall weirdness

This might just be my fatigue talking, but did the whole episode feel kind of 'off' to anyone else? I can't really pinpoint it; it just didn't feel like any other episode we've seen before. The low budget CGI, maybe? Maybe Lapidus's lack of a beard? Still, I don't know... --Grahamdubya 06:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was the best episode of the season so far. Finally the off-Island story had something tangible to do with the Island.  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  07:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Jimbo - it felt truly epic, the only (somewhat major) downside is that Penny might be dead :( Which would pretty much ruin the show for me. Integrated (User / Talk) 14:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I was disappointed that there wasn't more of a plot twist generated from Locke's suicide note. "I wish you had believed me." Yawn.--Eyeful Tower 22:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree on the weirdness factor. I've felt that the entire off island story arc this season has been somewhat forced and hurried. Loved that Frank popped back up, and hope he's a larger part of the rest of the series. Can't wait to discover the circumstances as to why Kate & Hurley changed their minds, and what's going on with Prisoner Sayid.Jnorton 15:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the weirdness is the result of the choice to temporarily skip forward all over the place, starting with the beginning flash forward and continuing through with the missing Hurley/Sayid/Kate/Ben events. It's an interesting technique and it will surely pay off with some great classic flashback-style episodes later on, but it kind of came out of nowhere. It's possible they did the teaser jump forward to prepare us for a bizarrely edited Jack-POV story, but I kind of think the teaser jump was a mistake. The sudden mind-changes of Hurley and Kate may have felt more like normal twists and less like hanging plot points if we hadn't already seen them on the island. I think they should have ended this episode with the flash on the Ajira plane and left us hanging, then started the next on island episode with Jack's eye... But who knows, maybe the crazy structure will be justified by future episodes. A fascinating change of storytelling structure from the first five episodes of the season. --DesmondExMachina 16:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


Is there anything beyond Jin showing up in a new looking van to make us think it is the 1970s? Is that enough to be so sure about it in the main article?--Rdicker 07:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

    • Well, there is also the fact that he's in a new looking DHARMA jumpsuit
      • Well we've seen Daniel working for Dharma. So its not beyond belief that when we saw Daniel all of the rest of the survivors were working for Dharma.--Zaggs 21:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The 1970's is a guess that makes sense, but we don't really know what year they are in when they land on the island. The article needs to include what we know and not assumptions on our part. --Minderbinder 19:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Island stopped moving?

So when Desmond turned the fail safe key, did that stop the island from moving? And Widmore was able to find it? And then when Ben turned the frozen donkey wheel, the people on it (outside of Richard's Others, I guess) got stuck moving in time while the island started moving in space and time? A measure of last resort as Ben said. So now, we're back in the '70s, and depending on how long Sawyer and that group have been there, the O6 are all three years older while they're maybe just a few months older? What a fun episode that was. --Makiwolf 07:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong because I love that theory but it was countered by Mrs Hawking in this episode when she said, the Island is always moving why do you thing you were never rescued? --- But then what she said seems to be countered by the fact that Widmore managed to just sail a ship right on up beside it.... I just don't know what to belive (Ack! Confused.... Help meeeee......)--WhyDidntUKnow 22:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Loose end

The loose end Ben is talking about, could it be Penny?

Given than Ben calls Jack wet, bloodied, and frazzled from a pay phone at a Marina, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Ben attempted to kill Penny. Do we know anybody else with a sailboat?--Eyeful Tower 22:08, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • He also calls it a "promise to an old friend", could be referring to the time he sneaked in to Widmore's bedroom and promised vengeance for the death of Alex. --Kb1pkj 13:15, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Hurely & Jin: Is it juxtaposition?

I'm wondering if Jin & Hurley's meeting on the Island is a juxtaposition since Hurley was the only Oceanic 6 survivor, other than Sun who attended Jin's funeral and visited his grave. --Iimitk 12:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Ms Hawking Vs Abbadon

Eloise Hawking oddly enough seems to be attempting to help get the universe on course and make sure the things that need to happen will actually happen, then I started thinking that I have seen this before, with Matthew Abaddon, he seem to be the black to Ms Hawkings white (heck for all we know it could be the other way arround). But I'm trying to figure out what this means exactly, are they working together or against eachother? They seem ot be equal in terms of knowledge of the things that need to happen.--WhyDidntUKnow 22:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Abaddon has showed nowhere near such knowledge that Hawking has. How are they equal in terms on knowledge? Abaddon has never even mentioned knowledge of the island, let alone how to get there. Also I don't know about "the universe" and "course correcting", I know time travel is in the show now, but she might just be doing it because she wants it to happen rather than some masterplan to save the universe. Let's keep things in perspective, Hawking is human too. Integrated (User / Talk) 14:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
    • When Hawking first appears in Flashes_Before_Your_Eyes, she tells Desmond that if someone tries to change fate, the universe will course correct itself to get people back on their prescribed path. She tells Desmond that he was not supposed to buy the ring and marry Penny, but go to the island and turn the fail-safe key. Stuv 18:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Abbadon knew Locke had to go to the Walkabout, and knew Locke would owe him one for having gone. He even went to see Hurley and asked whether or not the rest of the people on the Island were still alive. He most defenitly has knowledge of the Island and the people on it as well as the course the universe needs to take (at least to some extent as shown by his sending Locke to the walkabout). Heck Abbadon even picked the people that needed to go back to the Island on the freighter mission (I'm assuming at this point that Faraday, Charlotte and Miles were sent to the Island by Abbadon because he knew that they needed to be on the island and knew that they needed to be in the past to setup the present properly). In setting up the freight mission Abbadon either directly or in-directly setup the loop in time where Daniel sees Charlotte die on the Island only to tell her younger self not to come back, only to have Abbadon send her to the Island with Daniel (to watch her die?). Again pointing to somesort of advance knowledge of the events that are going to transpire. Both Abbadon and Ms Hawking seem to have pieces of the puzzel so to speak.

The other thing to mention is that although Ms Hawking told Desmond that the universe course corrects she also told him that if he didn't go to the Island and push the button, that they were "all dead" (i think she was refering to the population of the planet), this would seem to sugest that the universe can't course correct everything and that Desmond had some ammount of free will in pushing the button. Hence there are players that attempt to ensure that these events take place no matter what as the consequences if they did not take place would be catastrophic.

Again this seems to show that she knew ahead of time how events needed to play out much like Abbadon sent Locke to the walkabout seemingly with the knowledge that he would end up on the Island.--WhyDidntUKnow 22:23, 19 February 2009

Hurley's comic book

Did anyone get a good look at the comic book Hurley was reading on the plane? It looked to be an issue of "Y: The Last Man" but im not sure. Just an interesting piece of tivia to add seeing as they were trying to recreate the circumstances of the original crash and Hurley was reading the Spanish language version of Green Lantern/Flash: Faster Friends when Flight 815 crashed. --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 14:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It was definitely the Spanish version of Y The Last Man (I thin it said Y El Hombre Ultimo or something), and it looked thick to me so probably one of the collected graphic novels. --Jackdavinci 18:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Jack waking up in Jungle

Was the spot that Jack woke up in this episode the same spot as where he did in the pilot? If so wouldn't it be a blooper because he could hear Hurley's call for help at the waterfall yet in "Whatever The Case May Be" we are told that waterfall is someway away from the camp. We know the original place Jack landed in the pilot was near the camp because we saw him run straight to the beach in the Pilot. --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 14:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

  • Well.. it wasn't the same spot Integrated (User / Talk) 14:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
  • It wasn't the same spot, but it was meant to be a visual callback to the similar scene in the first episode. And was that the same waterfall where they found the gun case? It looked different to me. --Jackdavinci 18:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed Unanswered questions

  • Who took the U.S. Army Island photo? The U.S. Army perhaps?
    • Who brought it to the Lamp Post and why? They brought it there because that's the place they were trying to locate

Integrated (User / Talk) 14:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

    • How did DHARMA learn that the Island exists without knowing where it was? The photo suggests they learnt from the army

A noble effort Integrated, but it appears that we'll have to wait a week to clean up UQ. I tried the same thing last night only to have them all reappear. --LOSTinDC 16:15, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

We have no indication that the U.S. Army was ever in control of the Lamp Post or that the DHARMA Initiative is/was affiliated with the Army. How the DI acquired that supposedly secret photo is a valid mystery. Robert K S (talk) 21:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the ultimate motivation for the Others?

So I started this conversation over at the theories page for "This Place is Death." I know the Others are supposed to be protecting the Island, but at this point in the series, that answer isn't satisfying anymore. There's something else going on. The Island is mysterious with Jacob and the Monster and the Temple and the like. Richard doesn't age. It moves in time and space. There's some sort of rift between some factions of the Others (Ben vs. Widmore). But just what the hell is going on? What motivates the Others to do all the things they do? Protecting the Island may be a part of their goals, but in and of itself is not enough to explain the extremes they will go to at times. I know this is the essential question of the entire series, but now that we're about a third of the way through season five, I'd love to hear what people are thinking. Dpetley 14:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing that should be discussed on the Lostpedia message boards. This space is for discussion of improvement of the "316" article only. Cheers, Robert K S (talk) 21:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Technical Issues with the Theories Page

  • The exact same set of edits on my part have been reverted a number of times. I don't believe this has been intentional, as all the revisions have been by different users also adding their own posts User:DesmondFaraday 21:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions, round 6

  • Why is the man in first class of Flight 316 with the Oceanic Six? He probably bought a first-class ticket, not a major mystery.
  • Why weren't Walt or Desmond on the plane? Desmond doesn't want to go back to the Island and wouldn't help in recreating the circumstances of the crash anyways. Walt is likely in New York where he lives and it would be impossible to get him on the plane within the alloted time.
  • Desmond wasn't on Flight 815, so according to Eloise Hawking he wouldn't need to be on the plane to recreate the circumstances when 815 crashed.Not a question.
  • Where are Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, and Daniel? Not presented as a major mystery.
  • Is the church above the Lamp Post affiliated with Brother Campbell's church? Speculation.
  • How does Eloise Hawking know that John Locke hanged himself? Not presented as a majory mystery.
    • How does she know his true name? Ben knew and she's working with him.
    • Is the note she gives to Jack authentically Locke's suicide note? Speculation.
  • How does Eloise Hawking end up running The Lamp Post station? Not presented as a majory mystery, but I'll leave it for now if people disagree with me.
  • Who is the man that Hawking says conceived the equations that predict the Island's movements?Not presented as a major mystery.
  • What changes [Kate's] mind to return to the Island? To be with Jack.
    • Why does she demand that Jack never ask her about Aaron? This question is somewhat redundant with "Where is Aaron?" When we know the answer to that one, we will likely know why she doesn't want Jack to know.
  • Why doesn't anyone on the flight question [Ben's] injuries? Not a major mystery.
  • If Charles Widmore knows Eloise Hawking's location, why can't he use The Lamp Post to find the island? Theory-baiting.
  • When the Ajira passengers end up on the island, what year are they in? Not presented as a major mystery.
  • Why did Ben need to "move the Island" if, as Eloise Hawking implies, it is always moving? Theory-baiting.
  • What did Eloise mean when she told Desmond that the island was not done with him yet? Rephrased.
  • What is the significance of Jack waking up on the island with the "I wish" portion of the suicide note in his hand? UQ's shouldn't be about metaphors.

And as always, please keep your questions in present tense as per LP:EMOS and remember that, on Lost, "Island" is spelled with a capital "I".  Jimbo the Tubby  talk  contributions  21:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

In the future, can you number these for easy reference? The question about where Sawyer etc. are would seem valid in some form or other; the last time we saw them, they were together as a group. It is natural to question what happened to them. How Eloise Hawking ended up in control of a DHARMA station is a major mystery. Asking who a mysterious individual might be is a mystery. I agree there may be some redundancy in the Kate/Aaron questions but I can't think of a way to rephrase them that wouldn't make assumptions or promote theories. We don't definitively know that Kate's choice to go with Jack is linked to Aaron's fate, as good a guess as it might be. The year question could be rephrased as some variant of "When are they?" (I mean, we know where they are, but as to when, we can only guess given the evidence provided.) I added the "why did Ben need to move the Island" and so I will defend it as not being theory baiting. We were given the impression that the Island needed moving. Now Eloise gives the impression that the Island was always moving (and not that it was cloaked or that there could be some other explanation for the 815 folks not being rescued). That conflict in information naturally gives rise to a question. Either the Island was moving before Ben moved it, or it wasn't. Perhaps there is a better way to phrase the question, but I think it's legit and raised by this episode. As to tense in UQs, I think that should be up for discussion. It's not clear to me that all UQs make sense when phrased in present tense. (Given the choice between "How did..." or "How does the Black Rock get in the middle of the jungle?", I think I'd go with the past tense.) Robert K S (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Where do you get "Not presented as a major mystery" as a reason that a UQ isn't valid? There's no mention of that in the manual of style. Besides, that's a matter of opinion anyway. A number of the questions you listed seem very major to me. --Minderbinder 21:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
From LP:UQ, "The unanswered questions section is designed to point out all mysteries that still remain to be resolved." I think Jimbo is using "major" to distinguish valid UQs ("What is the Monster?") from insignificancies or inanities ("Why does Sawyer smoke?" "Why does Christian Shephard drink?" "Why does Jack work in Los Angeles?") Robert K S (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, UQ doesn't say anything about "major mysteries". I agree that some things are completely trivial and irrelevant, but there are things that are reasonably significant and bring up obvious questions that still arguably wouldn't be "major", including things you mentioned above. --Minderbinder 21:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
And why, exactly, is "keeping a promise to an old friend" a major mystery, but the identity of the man who discovered the location of the Island is not? Of course we all know who the friend is, and what the promise is, but that can't be posed because it would be stricken as "Theory baiting" or "speculation". Honestly, I don't know what the point is of having a UQ section if the editing of it is going to be so arbitrary and heavy handed.--Eyeful Tower 22:02, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, "we all know", but Lost persistently gives us reasons to be Doubting Thomases and to insist on being shown before accepting an answer definitively. I don't think we are being especially heavy-handed with UQ sections--just trying to keep a good balance between making them useful and preventing them from getting out of control. For the UQs for which the justification for inclusion is debatable, we have the debate, which is always kinda fun. Robert K S (talk) 22:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
"To be with Jack" is pure unadulterated speculation. We do not know Kate's full motivation behind returning to the Island. This is a legitimate UQ.--Eyeful Tower 22:02, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Definitely a valid question. Kate suddenly changed her mind for a reason we do not know yet.--Messenger 22:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


5x06 Barfly


Though the character "barfly" was credited by ABC Medianet's press release, I do not recollect any such character appearing in the episode (though there was a woman sitting at the bar next to Jack who resembled Pattie Hastie, she did not have a speaking role). Should we remove the character from the guest cast in the infobox? -- Sam McPherson  T  C  E  22:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice catch. It may be a good bet she had a line or two that got cut. Robert K S (talk) 22:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Locke is alive (his pulse can be seen)?

An actor-related error: when the first scene with Locke's face is shown, his pulse can be seen from his neck.

--Pepeus 22:14, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Another UQ

  • Why did Ben say that his mother had taught him to read, when his mother died giving birth to him? This is a simple deception by Ben, we shouldn't read into it any further.--TheHunger talk My contributions 22:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Ben calling Jack "John"?

In the church scene, just after Ben tells Jack the story about the apostle, I'm sure that Ben actually calls Jack "John" - as in “We’re all convinced sooner or later, John.” I thought it was my hearing things until I listened to the same bit over and over again. I'm totally convinced that I wasn't just hearing things. Anyone else heard this? --Stuartgr 22:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah! I thought the same. --   Dee4leeds  talk  contribs  all  22:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
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