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*'''No''': I agree with Baker1000, an article listing them all would do it. --[[User:Ampts|Ampts]] 13:05, 12 February 2008 (PST)
 
*'''No''': I agree with Baker1000, an article listing them all would do it. --[[User:Ampts|Ampts]] 13:05, 12 February 2008 (PST)
 
*'''No''': If they're just used as window dressing they serve no purpose. Quotes should only be used for commentary and analysis - [[wikipedia:Fair use|Fair Use]]. The responsible and considered approach that LP takes towards the use copyrighted images and video should be equally applicable to words. And we all know what happens when writers don't get the credit they deserve!--{{User:TechNic/sig}} 06:02, 14 February 2008 (PST)
 
*'''No''': If they're just used as window dressing they serve no purpose. Quotes should only be used for commentary and analysis - [[wikipedia:Fair use|Fair Use]]. The responsible and considered approach that LP takes towards the use copyrighted images and video should be equally applicable to words. And we all know what happens when writers don't get the credit they deserve!--{{User:TechNic/sig}} 06:02, 14 February 2008 (PST)
  +
*'''No''': What I said before. {{User:Dt7/sig}} 06:03, 14 February 2008 (PST)

Revision as of 14:03, February 14, 2008

  • Extremely Disagree: First, it just looks plain ugly. Second, it is just one more thing to get in the way.--CaptainInsano 12:27, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • Interesting opinion. I would say Agree as I think it adds a little bit of interest into an article, and as for getting in the way, when I made it, I purposely made sure they were unobtrusive. What do you suggest, Captain? I'll take all suggestions on board, I just want people to be happy with it :D --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  12:29, 20 January 2007 (PST)
Not saying get the way as in size, but it is one thing to navigate around on the edit page.--CaptainInsano 12:35, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • I Agree! Agree, Agree, Agree ! There's nothing wrong with them, they are cool and don't stand out too much. --THE MONSTER

Lots of people gave their opinion on the Talk:Main Page#Quotes in Articles page, and they all seemed pretty supportive of this idea. Given the comments on that page, does anyone think the consensus does not/will not like the current implementation?--Dagg 13:14, 20 January 2007 (PST)

A lot only said it was and interesting idea. Then someone people have been asking how to create a poll. So here we are.--CaptainInsano 13:16, 20 January 2007 (PST)


  • Bringing the interpersonal stuff into this discussion is irrelevant. That said, I took a look and Captain did not say anything harsh other than using the word "random". He also repsonded with restraint to highly emotionally laden words from the other participant (pshyco smokey monster/the monster) on at least three occasions. The Captain's points are valid, but seem to have been taken as escalation or personal attacks, which they were not: 1) Disagreements on large changes require consensus and discussion. 2) personal investment in one's edits does not belong in a wiki (e.g. "I worked so hard on my edits"). IMHO. Anyways let's drop this topic completely, or some tempbans may be considered. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  14:57, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • Use them sparingly and More discussion neededIn my opinion it would be good to have 1 page with an example on it to view. And leave it as the only one to stop the editing wars until an agreement is reached as Santa suggested. However in saying that to me the quotes don't look very good especially with the red border. I think them being used sparingly could possible work but having them on every page would be too much. Also an agreement needs to be come to on what quotes go on what page. Does a quote have to be said by a character to go on their character page or can another character say it about them. At any rate I think it is too early to start going quote crazy and it is not too late to have an intelligent conversation regarding them on this page.--Mr.Leaf 13:36, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • O.K I agree with Leafy but in the meantime can you do something about Insano and him deleting the pre-existing quote boxes?


  • Can we agree on a page to leave 1 or 2 quotes on? Perhaps Bernard's page as an example?--Mr.Leaf 13:43, 20 January 2007 (PST)
They can make a page called User:Lost Soul/Quote Example, like LOCI did. But I will never agree to change the normal page.---CaptainInsano 13:46, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • The quotes really aren't doing much harm where they are. --THE MONSTER
  • I have created a page to try and stop this argument. This is what Bernard's page would look like with quotes. It is exactly like the normal one. Could we please link to it on this page and the article page and leave all normal articles the way they are. This will allow people to see what the pages would look like without quote will making everyone happy (hopefully).--Mr.Leaf 13:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • Mr. Leaf makes some great points, and I agree with them. As I said earlier, I don't have a strong objection when this stuff is used in moderation, though I'm not a fan of the red dotted line border either (I think we can make this look less "patchworky"; but this wouldn't necessarily be an article-by-article edit, just a few simple ones to the template). I also think they're a little overdone already. I think in this case where there are people who do have strong opinions on it (I am not one of them), we should slow down and get more editors involved in the discussion. So far, I've seen opinions from about 5 or 6 users; at its height during the seasons, we have close to a hundred regular editors alone. I'll repeat my stance that it's not bad when limited, but is not integral to the site, so we can be a little patient about this one and do a few example pages. --PandoraX 13:54, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • Agreed. Let's let this settle until we get many more editors in the discussion than the half dozen or so we have presently. I also agree that the use of quotes is not necessary, but is simply an enhancement of cosmetic "polish", which is indeed a direction we have been working toward (e.g. more images, a new site skin in progress) since the arrival of abc's official wiki. Therefore it is not an issue that needs to be resolved with haste. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  15:01, 20 January 2007 (PST)

This has escalated unreasonably. In my opinion, Lost Soul and some others made a good faith attempt to try and get consensus before these changes were implemented. I saw several discussions on the main page over the last 2 weeks, and sandbox pages were made, and people were personally asked their opinion on user talk pages, etc. It is clear that a good faith attempt was made.

There is not really a central place to say things on a wiki to make sure everyone sees what is proposed, and make sure everyone has had their chance to give their opinion. For that reason, I understand why someone could feel left out of the loop, and someone could feel betrayed by edits happening without their pre-approval. Really, the only option an out-of-the-loop user would have is to delete the non-approved edits.

I don't want to pick sides here, but I do want to point out that the cursing and name-calling is quite embarrasing. Everyone who is engaging in that kind of behaviour is wrong. There are no excuses.--Dagg

  • IMHO: Quotes with moderation (1-2 per article), might add polish to a good and otherwise complete article, if chosen carefully. Adding more quotes than this however will become detrimental very quickly, and this is a significant concern of mine. Practically, there is the consensus problem of: Who gets to choose the quote?
    • Suggested guidelines for character articles:
    1. Incidental characters get one quote only
    2. Main cast characters
      • if the article is already complete with plot summaries separated by season, can get one quote per season header.
      • The article should not have a quote topping the page as a whole
    • Suggested guidelines for episode articles:
    • Episode may have one quote each for 1) Flashback synopsis, and 2) Real time synopsis.
    • The article should not have a quote topping the page as a whole
    • Suggested guidelines for other articles:
    • Other article types should not have wholesale addition of quotes without discussion, as this is a practice that can easily be overdone.
    • Choosing quotes:
    • Some process should be determined to take a straw poll on quote selection.
Note: interpersonal stuff can easily end now. All participants simply limit discussion to the issues only, as we are hoping for consensus for the good of the wiki, not "winning" on an individual basis. Thank you. Any future citations of interpersonal issues on this page may be subject to tempbans.
-- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  14:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)
  • I do want to recognize that LS has done a lot of hard work in finding quotes, etc, first off. However, I'll just make the comment, echoing some of the above, that quotes should only be used if they give some kind of window into the character's motivations or central beliefs, or for an episode article, only pivotal quotes that exemplify important themes should be used. I don't think the Pickett that were up do that... sorry, not to pick on particular edits, but just as an example of how to move forward. --PandoraX 15:52, 20 January 2007 (PST)


  • Mine (and LOCI's) idea for this was to have quotes used sparingly. THese quotes would reflect the character's experiences during theseason that the quote referred to. For example, on the John Locke page, the Season 2 quote was "It's not real! None of this is real!" I think that this quote adds to the page as it sums up in a few words the character's experiences during that season.

As for the border and the overall design of the box; of course it can be changed. I have absolutely no qualms with that. However, I do not think there's much that can be done; I think a solid border would look strange, and a dotted border without a colour would look odd if it was not red (for example if it was yellow, or blue). But as I said, if someone wants to change it and it looks better the new way, I'm all for it. In fact, I just changed it to a darker green, and I think it looks TONS better, and a lot less unobtrusive.

I do agree that this situation has gotten out of control, and, yes, maybe I was responsible in part. It all started with me asking the Captain for his views on a one-to-one basis, and it just went on from there. However, I cannot agree with Santa's comment: "Captain did not say anything harsh other than using the word "random"." This is not true. His overall attitude was nasty, IMO, but w/e, it's not important and not relevant, so I'm dropping it. I have apologised to the Captain, and, as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of the matter.

So, in conclusion, I agree with Santa's proposal mostly: Only relevant quotes; main cast characters have one for each season, and minor characters only have one. I believe that's what we were doing already. However, and this is my only problem, doing a straw poll for each quote takes time. I say leave it to the editor who makes the quote and if you don't like it, change it.

I also believe that quotes illustrate themes nicely; for example, on the Parent Issues page, there is a quote above each section which does well to illustrate the issue/theme it addresses. So, this template can be used effectively; it just needs to be used correctly, and, I agree, I was a little too hasty this time. So sorry about that. Namaste, --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  23:31, 20 January 2007 (PST)

  • Examples of some of the quotes:
  • "Now, you chose to take out the computer now."-Arzt on Arzt page
  • "You're Walt's old man, aren't you?" - Danny on Pickett page
  • "Kate Austen, you're under arrest for murder."-Mars on Edward Mars page
  • "No matter how she makes you feel, don't you trust a word that she says."-Mars on Edward Mars page
  • "Dude, I think Leslie's a bitchin' name."-Hurley on Hurley page
  • "You're not going to, like, turn into the Hulk, or something?"-Hurley on Hurley page

If you guys need for me to continue I will (trust there is a lot of material). Seriously random. If you guys did this on you first time of trying, what will the second time be like. ("Did that bird just say my name?"-Hurley)--CaptainInsano 09:35, 21 January 2007 (PST)

  • If people don't like our quotes they have the liberty to change them as is the nature of wikis. THE MONSTER
  • But if the person never said a quote that is worthly of quoting there is not point of picking a random, stupid quote.--CaptainInsano 09:38, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Some good guidelines have been suggested so far but here are a couple more suggestions on my part.
1) As stated it is user discretion as to which quote suits a character or episode, etc. And not all users are going to agree with it. And I agree a straw pole for each quote on each page would be useless and very quickly nobody would bother responding. I think it would be better if a section was created on the talk page called quotes. Then when a user adds or changes a quote they could add a brief summary as to why they did and why they think it is important to the article. This would at least give other editors who question whether the quote belongs a place to read what the user was thinking and perhaps start a discussion on it?
2) For character pages does a quote have to be said about the character or by the character or could it be either one?
3) I agree with Captain. If you cannot think immediately of a quote said by or about the character that stands out then their is no need for a quote for that character and no need to search for one.

Just a couple quick thoughts but I think what has been suggested already is a very good foundation.--Mr.Leaf 09:40, 21 January 2007 (PST)

Captain Insano has did a good job of cleaning up all the existing quotes. Now that we can start off with a clean slate, I vote to start putting selective quotes on some pages. Lots of good points above about using them carefully and not going overboard. I don't think anyone at all would disagree that we can have some quotes on some pages. Where do we start from here? I propose we start a vote on the smallest possible implementation of this (next section).--Dagg 09:52, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Undecided-- I'm still on the fence about this one. Despite being a wiki, we are a fan site: (we do original research, we have always had fan theories, we have a news portal, and a forum)-- So we are not just a "serious encyclopedia" but we also care about cosmetic polish, as seen in the changes in the design of the site (colors, rounded boxes, site logo) in the past year (with even more to come). In that light, I believe a very limited use of quotes add "polish"... but echoing PandoraX, it does so only if the quote illustrates the essence of the topic (and Captain cited some examples that do not qualify ih this regard). I fear that in implementation, everyone will scramble to find a quote, any quote, for every article that qualifies. Wikis are not democracies, so perhaps we can find some undemocratic arbiter (sysops, or a designated user) who is able to remove quotes that do not qualify (in their opinion), without needing a poll each time. If we can do that, then this is just one more positive way we can compete cosmetically with the ABC wiki.-- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  12:37, 21 January 2007 (PST)


Straw Poll

Is it ok to add quotes using the existing Template:QuoteRef template to the character pages (other types of pages can be voted on much later) of the characters listed here: Portal:Main Characters, Portal:The Others? One quote that summarizes the character can optionally be added to each major section of the character page (e.g., one quote per season). A quote cannot be added to the very top of the article.

Here is an example using the current QuoteRef template:

"Don't tell me what I can't do!" - John Locke, "Walkabout"


Please vote yes or no below.

Yes

  • Yes, Quotes can be added to those articles. When a case comes up when someone disagrees with a particular quote, then a discussion should be opened on the particular character page (this is how we handle conflicts with images).--Dagg 09:52, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes, I love the idea and can think of no disadvantages to it. THE MONSTER .
  • Yes, when managed correctly, this makes an article look good, IMO. I also agree with what Dagg says, in that conflicts can be easily resolved. --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  09:58, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes, they seem cute and why should they be restricted to fan sites???—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Princess Dharma (talkcontribs) .
  • Yes, as long as they are important to the character. Locke saying "Don't tell me what I can't do" is important. Kate saying "Should I get a ruler" is not important. --Mr. Crabby (Talk) 10:16, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes I think the quotes that were put up are of high importance for the seasons. So i vote we keep then indeedy. --    LostxAngel    talk    contribs    email  
  • Yes-- I'm sorry for not being here to help out, I went on an unexpected family vacation. But I think this is an excellent idea if used sparingly.--LOCI!
  • I say Yes. I think, if we include quotes that really exemplify the character's nature ("Don't tell me what I can't do!", for example) or other cool inclusions (first lines, final lines, etc.), they should be there. --Aero*Zeppelin 01:16, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes I love quotes, I'm even a member of Wikiquote! --Blueeagleislander 03:02, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes I think a general quote on each character/episode really adds to the article even if it is only one line.DrGiggles

No

  • No chance in hell--CaptainInsano 09:54, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • No: Sorry guys, but I have to agree with the Captain here. I just don't think it would be appropriate to just insert quotes in. --Marik7772003 09:58, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - Feels pretty lame- and I hardly ever say lame. The whole idea doesn't really seem to go with Lostpedia's style as an encyclopedia... although it's a nice idea, I think it's more suited to a fansite or something. Bernard's quote on his page doesn't really add much information, neither does the example given for Jack. Don't see the point, myself. -Chris[dt7] 10:04, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - Sorry, but as much as I see why some people want them on pages I really don't think they go with the style we use here and the amount of arguments and discussions on which ones and how many is to many,etc would not be worth it. If you guys want go ahead and create a page for quotes then you can do whatever you please with it but I don't think they belong on the normal pages.--Mr.Leaf 10:13, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - Just doesn't look right. --lewisg 15:36, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • No A good quote can do just as much to illustrate an article as a pic, but the English language (and I'm assuming others as well) already comes equipped with quotation marks. I don't really see the need for a template, or for formalizing the number of quotes used. If a quote is relevant that's great, but instituting a quota could lead to some quotes that are only quasi-relevant and highlighting that with a box and bright colors would only bring down the quality of an article, imho. I also don't see the possible benefits outweighing a continuation of the bickering that this has already caused, and spreading it to the talk pages of every article might only exacerbate things. If a specific quote seems particularly relevant to the point, just include it in the paragraph, or use it for a caption. -BearDog 10:30, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - I can just imagine the "this is my favourite quote so I'm putting it in" edit wars, and the battles over which quote to use, and the over use of quotes throughout the pages right now. In theory I thought it would be great, but the behaviour of some of those who added them without consultation, the impatience they've show, and the flame wars they have subsequently taken part in with people who have tried to make some valid points, makes me think it is a very, very bad idea indeed. I was in favour of this, but the behaviour of the more, shall I say "militant" supporters of this really has put me off the idea. -- Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  17:35, 23 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - We already have the full transcripts available. I agree with Paul about the edit wars this would cause. This is something that belongs on a user page. --   Jabberwock    talk    contribs    email   - 07:44, 24 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - Looks terrible. --   Dee4leeds  talk  contribs  all  07:50, 24 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - sorry, we have enough trivial stuff floating about on pages - I'd rather lose space to something more analytical --Nickb123 (Talk) 07:34, 31 January 2007 (PST)
  • No - Just doesn't fit. - Comedy240 19:56, 13 February 2007 (PST)
  • No - I don't want this to start looking like Uncyclopedia. While I do like Uncyclopedia, it has its place. It would make Lostpedia look less professional, something it excels at already. Burnside65 08:57, 12 February 2008 (PST)

CONSENSUS: No consensus - I think it is clear that this particular vote will not end in an agreement. Anyone interested in continuing this debate should suggest some new ideas, and start a new vote if required. Otherwise, we can continue with the current state of the wiki, in which there are no documented rules for quotes within articles.-- Dagg talk contribs4 8 22:38, 10 February 2007 (PST)

How Many

  • I'd say wait for a few more SysOps to sign. -Chris[dt7] 14:01, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • O.K but can we set an actuall time at which the poll closes, say 06:00 GMT --THE MONSTER . 14:11, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Calm down, brah! It's only been like 6 hours! Good straw polls run for a week to give everyone a chance to sign. --Marik7772003 14:13, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • O.K sorry I guess I am being a little impatient. :-S --THE MONSTER .
  • Just a reminder to new users: a straw poll is not a vote, and it is not binding. Depending on the rationales given, even the losing side may prevail, or an entirely different solution taken. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  14:46, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Just for the record, I'm abstaining right now, because again, I don't feel strongly either way. I do want to say for the record that I am against adding a quote per season for each character. This seems like too many quotes to me, and too forced (if the character was present but didn't do much that season). --PandoraX 08:36, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • BTW, I really like the quote used for Parent issues about trading a kidney for a father figure. I think this is a good example of conservative and relevant quote usage that adds to the substance of the page. Beyond that, it becomes just "look what I can do with wikitext". --PandoraX 09:33, 22 January 2007 (PST)

Infobox option

  • Another option for characters articles would be to insert a single quote into the infobox. I don't think it would be appropriate for the episode infoboxes, however. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  14:46, 21 January 2007 (PST)
  • Yes - I like this idea...the template makes the pages look kinda 'bitsy'. Alternately I would simply propose that the section header "Memorable quotes" be added to the bottom of character pages...not for episodes, and only for those characters who have truly said something memorable.--Kivipat
  • The disadvantage is you can't have a quote per season, in cases of characters that really develop from season to season. For example Locke in S1 might be "Don't tell me what I can't do", and in S2 might be "I was wrong". Also I didn't mean to say quotes don't belong in episodes, I just meant episode infoboxes. I think episode synopses are such a burdensome block of text that having one quote each for "flashback synopsis" and "island synopsis" would be a nice cosmetic touch. As stated above though, I'd like sysops to designate a senior editor(s) (such as the ones voting No in the straw poll above) to informally be the final arbiter on quote selection or removal. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  00:22, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I just typed this lol, it got deleted, so here goes, take 2: I dont believe they should go in the infobox. I am a firm believer that they should go in the articles, but, and this is the important bit, only if the quote adds something to the page, i.e. they contribute something and aren't there for the sake of it. The examples above you gave, Santa, for Locke, are perfecct for illustrating what I am trying to say. I also agree with what you say for episodes; one quotes which sums up the section ahead would be good. ---   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  08:42, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I agree with disagreeing on the infobox idea. I really would prefer the quotes to go in the main article though they should tell a reader something about that character or episode by reading it alone. THE MONSTER .

I think this is a good idea, both's sides win. Let us try to settle for this or another comprise --Mr. Crabby (Talk) 08:46, 22 January 2007 (PST)

Other looks

I know the template has already been tweaked a few times but I have never been a fan of the dotted line (esp. in the <pre>...</pre>/initial-space markup). Since to me, the issue is one of adding subtle "polish" to the site, I borrowed from the front page, which has also had a cosmetic makeover recently. Applied to the quote template, it might look something like:

"Waaalt! Waaalt! Waaalt!" - Michael Dawson, "...And Found"


-- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  00:39, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I agree. The above template looks a lot better then the one I made. I propose that we use this one as it looks a lot neater. I really would like a decision on this soon, as I see this running and running. --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  03:29, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • The straw poll lasts as long as it needs to until we get a comfortable number of responses, especially from long-time editors and sysops, especially in a controversial topic such as this. If we don't get enough, then we take no action. So if you want a decision on this soon, then it is "no decision". Otherwise, please wait; begging and nagging do not contribute toward consensus, and are therefore utterly ineffective. Also this kind of hasty eagerness is exactly one of the things many of the users voting 'no' are worried about. Thank you for understanding. -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  04:45, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I think that if the option to use quotes within articles is accepted then this is definitly the neatest and best looking way of presenting it.DrGiggles
  • Alright fair enough, sorry for being a pain. I can't help it some times. But yah, your template is a lot better than mine; it looks neat and tidy :) Nice job. --   Lost Soul   talk  contribs  08:09, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • Good look. --PandoraX 08:39, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I like the way that looks. Here is an example of what the Economics page would look like if the existing quote was changed to this new format:

Socialism (Jack)

1x05HurleyCharlieJack

Jack first learns of the water shortage

"Live together, die alone." - Jack, "White Rabbit"


Jack represents the socialist approach to resource allocation. Wary of self-interest among the survivors, Jack is a mostly benevolent person who attempts to solve the problems of the Island imposed by scarcity, even to the point of personal exhaustion. Jack's surname, "Shephard," reinforces this interpretation - he exists to care for, direct and manage the lives of the survivors, presumably because left to their own devices, the Losties would destroy themselves and those around them.

Would still need to clean up the whitespace a little, but other than that, it looks nice to me, and it looks like it belongs.--Dagg 12:18, 22 January 2007 (PST)::I actually like it much better the way it already is. What's wrong with italics and a space break to set off the quote? I'd actually use the current version of the article as an example of quotes done right (except for the quotes section contained in it, which doesn't seem to serve any purpose and lives far too close to the top of the article for my taste). The quotes used for Socialism, and Capitalism are just about perfect in my mind- they're unobrusive and highlight the point of the text. I just don't believe that adding infoboxes actually improves the aesthetics of the article, and could actually distract a user from the article, which is extremely well-written. IMO, the simpler the better. -BearDog 13:04, 22 January 2007 (PST)
I'll go ahead and respond to your question: There is nothing wrong with the italics and space break. I tend to agree that simpler is better. However, I think that in some cases, a highlighted quote adds more value than, for example, an image. Are you also suggesting that images distract a user from the article?
Here is another possible example for quotes:

Socialism (Jack)

“Live together, die alone.”

- Jack, "White Rabbit"

Jack represents the socialist approach to resource allocation. Wary of self-interest among the survivors, Jack is a mostly benevolent person who attempts to solve the problems of the Island imposed by scarcity, even to the point of personal exhaustion. Jack's surname, "Shephard," reinforces this interpretation - he exists to care for, direct and manage the lives of the survivors, presumably because left to their own devices, the Losties would destroy themselves and those around them.

Notice that in this case, the idea is to replace an image with a quote. This technique could be very useful on pages like Irony, Rebirth, Parent issues, etc.--Dagg 21:37, 22 January 2007 (PST)
I wasn't suggesting that, but yes. Too many visual distractions (even images) can clutter an article and make it harder to read. Compare an [old] version with the current version of The Greater Good and I think you'll see what I mean. See how the new one doesn't feel quite as crowded? Giant bold writing might be even harder to read around than a pic. When you first looked at this paragraph:
Did you read this line,

or did this one draw your eye away first?

The eye is naturally drawn to larger writing, and it makes normal sized writing look harder to read by comparison. I actually like having some quotes tastefully peppered throughout some of the articles, but bold giant print and colored boxes makes them seem gaudy. Again, I've got to ask what's lacking with the way we've already been incorporating quotes? What are we trying to fix by pushing for these changes? Quotes aren't new to Lostpedia. I agree that a well chosen quotation can do just as much as a picture to illustrate a point, but making a simple quote visually more important than the article around it doesn't seem like value added. Keeping things aesthetically pleasing is definitely important, but not to the point that it begins to obscure content, which I'm concerned will happen drawing that much focus to a quote. -BearDog 12:52, 23 January 2007 (PST)
I feel like this is getting off track, so let me ask these questions... 1. You said: "what are you trying to fix..."; Question: Are you arguing that we can only add highlighted quotes to articles if the articles are broken? 2. You said: "the eye is naturally drawn to larger writing"; Question: Are you arguing that we should not draw people's eyes to large text? --Dagg 14:35, 23 January 2007 (PST)
No to both questions, but I completely understand how the point could be missed with giant bold text in the middle, distracting from the relevant text- which ironically was the point I was making. What are we, as a community, hoping to gain if these changes are implemented? Optimistically any change in policy would improve the quality of the articles; but what I've seen from the examples so far could do more harm than good, by hiding the important points of the articles rather than highlighting them. I just really don't think it's worth it. I'd much rather draw a readers eyes to our carefully researched and thought out articles, than to a glib quote off to the side. -BearDog 15:41, 23 January 2007 (PST)
True about the irony :). I agree that optimistically, this change could improve the quality of some articles. And I agree that a glib quote off to the side would be a bad thing. Maybe we just need better examples of quotes, or a better non-"gaudy" design? I totally agree that some of the quotes that Captain Insano reverted needed to be reverted, but most (if not all) of the ones that Lost Soul added were very well thought out (in my opinion). From the poll above, it looks like a lot of people like the idea of quotes. I'd hate to see the idea die just because people were afraid that the wiki community couldn't handle the alleged ( :) ) onslaught of badly chosen quotes. Ideally, I'm hoping someone can join the conversation and find a decent compromise. --Dagg 17:03, 23 January 2007 (PST)
  • Just a note that IE and Safari don't do those rounded corners (on the front page, this quote template, or user sigs.) -- Contrib¯ _Santa_ ¯  Talk  20:33, 22 January 2007 (PST)
  • I tend to like the small rounded corners one. I don't think a quote could ever replace an image and as much as I don't think these are going to be used properly (way over used) it looks like we have to decide on one way or another. I don't think a quote could ever replace an image, as they are completely different. However I like the look and size of the smaller text quote in the box as opposed to the dashed line border and different colours.Mr.Leaf 14:08, 23 January 2007 (PST)
  • I agree that a quote could not replace an image. However, I do believe that a well chosen quote can sometimes look and feel better than an image. For example, the Parent issues page has a bunch of pictures, but none of them really convey the theme of parent issues on Lost as well as the quote at the top of the Parent issues#Daddy issues section. For that particular page, I think we should just get rid of the images, and highlight a few quotes instead. This technique might or might not work on episode and character pages, but I think it would work well for this particular page. --Dagg 15:15, 23 January 2007 (PST)

Wild growth

I started a discussion on the wild growth of memorable quotes on Jack's discussion page, before I had found this page. This is what we said:

Lately, memorable quotes have been added to all pages of the main characters. Do we all agree these are wanted addditions? In my opinion it is not a bad idea in itself. However, I'd like to see some rules. For example, to be memorable a quote should not be 5 sentences long. I think, each quote should be 1 sentence, not more. I also think that a memorable quote should stand in itself, without quoting part of the contextual conversation as well. Thirdly, I think we should maximize the number of quotes allowed per page. And maybe, someone should think up some nice lay-out that doesn't clutter the page up like it is now? I'd like to hear opinions... --Hunter61 02:37, 10 February 2008 (PST)

I think the quotes should be shorterned quite a bit, to the bits that actual stand out. Like "If we gon't live together, we're going to die alone." instead of the full speach. --   Dee4leeds  talk  contribs  all  02:45, 10 February 2008 (PST)
I'm against the idea in general. Not enough to delete them, but personally, I don't think they belong. We already have famous repeated lines here. However, if they must stay I wholeheartedly agree with your proposed guidelines. If a one-line quote can't stand by itself without providing context, then it's not memorable. Memorable quotes are lines like "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn," or "Go ahead, make my day" because nobody needs to be told who said it or what the movie and/or context was. A 5-10 sentence paragraph is not a quote; it's a script excerpt. I think the folks at IMDB.com did not envision the abuse that their 'memorable quotes' pages have seen when they created the feature. Also, a quote from someone's favorite scene doesn't necessarily qualify as a memorable quote. The more flexible the guidelines are, the more people will get carried away and add whatever they think should be memorable.--Bonefishj0e 06:49, 10 February 2008 (PST)
I vote we delete them. They just seem out of place on this site IMO. Contributions here are more about facts and interpretations of facts. Memorable quotes moves the site in a different direction.--Chickenhawk 07:16, 10 February 2008 (PST)
I agree that they should be deleted. I don't think they belong.--Paidinfull 07:20, 11 February 2008 (PST)
I think they are unneeded, and in their current state way too much for already very long articles that will only get longer with more seasons. They are obviously also subjective in nature, in terms of which ones are representative of the character. As Chickenhawk says, articles here should be about the facts. I think they should be removed; in the mean time, it can be brought up at Lostpedia:Ideas to gauge user consensus before being implemented whole-sale. -- Graft   talk   contributions  07:34, 11 February 2008 (PST)


New vote

Let's vote on this whole thing again.

  • No: I don't think this should be included on all main articles - they're already cluttered enough, and space should be saved for more worthwhile analysis etc. --Nickb123 (Talk) 04:29, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: I think deciding on quotes to represent characters is too subjective a venture; it doesn't fit the encyclopedic nature of the site and would cause too much trouble in deciding which ones to use. The articles are already very long and only going to get longer; we should stick to the most essential relevant facts. -- Graft   talk   contributions  05:58, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: I still haven't changed my mind on this one from a year ago.  Plkrtn  talk  contribs  email  07:52, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: Unnecessary --   Dee4leeds  talk  contribs  all  08:03, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: They make the pages pointlessly longer. If someone feels we need them on the site, I wouldn't object to a new article listing them all.--Baker1000 08:11, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: I agree with Baker1000, an article listing them all would do it. --Ampts 13:05, 12 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: If they're just used as window dressing they serve no purpose. Quotes should only be used for commentary and analysis - Fair Use. The responsible and considered approach that LP takes towards the use copyrighted images and video should be equally applicable to words. And we all know what happens when writers don't get the credit they deserve!--TechNic|talk|conts 06:02, 14 February 2008 (PST)
  • No: What I said before. -Chris[dt7] 06:03, 14 February 2008 (PST)
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