Happily Ever After/Theories

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Theories about Happily Ever After

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Stated as questions or possibilities (avoid question marks, "Maybe", "I think", etc). More appropriate for another article. Illogical or previously disproven. Proven by canon source, and moved to main article. Speculative and lacking any evidence to support arguments. Responding to another theory (use discussion page instead). This does not include responses that can stand alone as its own theory. Usage of an indented bullet does not imply the statement is a response. See the Lostpedia theory policy for more details.

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The EMP Did Not split Desmond's Mind

• Contrary to what is below, the EMP did not split Desmond's mind, it was a near death experience that caused him to become aware of the reality that he could be living if he doesn't help Widmore. Much like the near death experience with Charlie in the FST showed him a glimpse of the OT. By seeing a life in which Penny doesn't know him and he has no child, he is now willing to help Widmore. But not because he was switched with the FST Desmond, but because he thinks that the FST was what Widmore was referring to when he said something to the effect of "if you dont help me, this will all have been for nothing."

The EMP Split Desmond's Mind Again

• At the end of the episode it was strongly hinted that Desmond was aware of the flash-sideways universe. It is likely that the EMP caused the same reaction in Desmond as when The Hatch was destroyed. ("Flashes Before Your Eyes")
• Desmond will act as a messenger between time lines.
  • Counter-Argument, When Desmond hit the fail safe in the hatch he went into his own past, he knew who Penny was and was going to buy a ring and marry her, where as in the FST, Desmond does not know who Penny is.
  • Desmond, in the OT seems to be aware of the FST but, in the FST, he seems to be not aware of the OT, in fact he doesn't remember the names of the passengers on 815.
    • Desmond still may need the manifest for two reasons: he does not necessarily know the last names of the people on the plane and the island. He also is aware in OT that many people died in the crash so he would not know them either.
    • FST Desmond became aware of OT Desmond when he touched Penny and fainted. He flashed much the same way that OT Des flashed. At the end of the episode FS Des requests the manifest, saying he needs to show "him" something. That him is OT Desmond.
    • Actually, he said "them", as in the people on the flight.
      • I would think that "them" would mean Widmore and his gang.
      • "Them" refers to the other passengers. Once they connect with each other / strong experiences in the OT, they glimpse the possibilities in the OT. Such as Charlie and Claire. He wants to get them together to find people to help him.
  • Desmond's awareness is debatable. The end of the episode strongly indicates he is aware of the flash-sideways universe and only slightly hints that he is aware of the opposite. Also, when he first experienced an alternate universe (his own past) ("Flashes Before Your Eyes") he wasn't aware it wasn't real until he jumped back into his OT self on the freighter. It's more than likely Desmond passing out in the stadium was the merging of his OT self and his FST self. Only this time he doesn't seem to have lost his memory of either.
    • He clearly has some memory loss, which is why he needs the manifest for the flight to find everyone's names.
      • He wants to compare the manifest to see who was on the plane in FST that wasn't in OT.
        • For example, himself. Might he being on that plane play a major role in all this, ala the substitute.
• His mind is not split, but rather the two parts communicated with each other. When the EM Incident was over, the conscious part of Desmond from the alternate universe settled in the Island timeline, while Island Desmond went to the sideways universe. The demeanor of Desmond on the Island now is that of the confident fix-it man for Charles Widmore, and the demeanor of Desmond in the sideways is now that of the love-struck, bumbling Desmond chasing after Penny. That is why Island Desmond is now so willing to help out who he views as his long time boss.
  • Though his minds seem to be more unified. Two Desmonds unified with a common purpose. Either way, Desmond never met everyone on the plane, nor would he necessarily remember everyone he DID meet even if his mind was 100% together. he'd have trouble finding sawyer since there IS no Sawyer on the flight manifest.
• Desmond asks for the manifest, specifically just the names. It's a list, who makes lists? Jacob. Someone's name on that manifest will speak to the candidates, whether it's Jacob or an important last name which clarifies something important.

Desmond Cannot be Killed by The Smoke Monster

• The purpose of the experiment was to confirm Widmore's theory that Desmond is unaffected by electromagnetic forces. It will follow from this that:
  • The Smoke Monster is fundamentally electromagnetic in nature and it will be unable to kill Desmond.
  • Desmond is somehow "related" to both Jacob and the MIB, the affect of the experiment was to restore the memory/knowledge of this fact to Desmond, which is why he is now compliant.
• The sonic fence keeps out the smoke monster. Desmond will have to lure MIB into an EM trap in order to kill him and once again be exposed to the EM himself.
  • There is no reason that the person who lures MIB into a trap needs to live. Widmore seems ready to sacrifice anything and anyone to achieve his goals.
    • But if the person dies in a fashion that would indicate EM killed him, MiB won't follow. He'll know it's a trap.
    • Additionally, Widmore is distressed by the fact that Penny currently hates him. Allowing Desmond to die will not help him win back Penny's love.
    • Desmond can't die yet because he hasn't read Our Mutual Friend by Charles Dickens yet.
• It seems more likely Charles Widmore, along with Eloise, is aware of the flash sideways universe. Subjecting Desmond to the electromagnetic force was most likely done to channel Desmond as a messenger between the two universes.

COUNTER ARGUMENT

• Desmond is NOT "unaffected by electromagnetic forces". Clearly it DOES affect him. It causes him to experience an alternate timeline (as indicated in other episodes), specifically the FST (in this episode), as inferred by his subsequent change of attitude (following his vision) and his statement to Minkowski (in the FST) at the ending of this episode. This would not necessarily make him automatically immune to the MIB's electromagnetic smoke.
  • Desmond can not be killed by EM it was proved when he was put into the box he survived that EM that's all they wanted to see if he could. He was only passed out for a few seconds.
• The argument is moot because electromagnetism is not the only way to kill a man. Desmond can be easily killed using a gun, for example. Not to mention that Smoke Monster usually kills people by throwing them around and smashing them against things, not by inflicting some electromagnetic damage.
  • Yes but if the smoke monster is made of EM then Desmond is like one of those pylons. He can not be touched by the smoke monster. And if the island isn't done with him yet then he can not be killed by a gun. Remember Michael trying to kill himself and then Keamy trying to shoot him couldn't be shot. So Desmond can not and will not die til he has served his purpose.
• It could just drop something on Des' head like it did to Bram.
• Desmond is CLEARLY affected by electromagnetic forces. In alternate timeline - MRI - Magnetic Resonance Imaging works by creating extremely powerful magnetic field. As we saw, it clearly worked on Desmond and made him see "visions".

The Scales

• In Widmore's office, there is a perfectly balanced scale, much like the Man in Black's. This may mean that this timeline is truly balanced instead of one side (white/Jacob) hindering another side (black/MIB).
• There are two paintings in Widmore's FST office (although this may be a blooper), the one on the left, when facing the window, seems to be tipped to the black side, the one on the right was balanced. They probably are like a fable, telling about evil (tipped to the black, uneven) and good (balance between evil and good, free will).

"Seeing"

• Desmond will find each of the important Losties in the FST and "show" them what Charlie "showed" him. Many of them are already having deja vu.
  • Agreed, the deja vu of the Losties in the FST relatively simplistic, like "haven't I met you before" when they see other Losties. Desmond has more value, per se. He and Charlie are the only ones so far to connect a few more dots than the rest. Desmond will be a major force leading up the end result off the island. It's pretty clear Charlie won't make too much an effort in this, except possibly to get back with Claire.
• As soon they begin to question their perfect lives, everything goes to hell. This has already happened to Sun and Jin. It will soon happen with Desmond, as his pursuit of Penny and his disobedience to Widmore will undoubtedly cause friction between him and his employer.
• From Desmond and Charlie the rest of the fliers in the alternate 815 will band together to correct the timeline. In such an event the alternate losties will gradually see more of their original lives, eventually causing their original selves to bleed into their alternate life.
• This may be the first hint that things we have seen in shows before are actually happening in an alternitive timeline instead of the liniar one we believed it to be, such as Charlie turning up at Hurleys mental asylum, alive and well, and telling Hurley "I'm alive here, but the people back there need you" this statement would be absolutely true if this is the case. Charlie was not dead or a ghost, hurleys friend also see's him.
  • • It may be possible that every-time a character dies in OT they go to FST like Juliette. Hurley isn't seeing dead people but people visiting him from the FST.
      • counter-argument - this cannot always be the case since there is no way Richard's wife is still alive in any timeline.

Desmond's Last Line

• If Desmond actually says "show him something" it probably means Desmond wants to show Charlie that Claire (Charlie's vision) exists, since they met each other at baggage claim (Desmond and Claire), and Desmond now suspects both he and Charlie can make their visions a reality (after Desmond met Penny in the FST)
  • Charlie never actually mentioned Claire's name so there is no way Desmond could have known that Charlie was actually talking about her.
    • Also Desmond wouldn't need the Oceanic flight 815 manifest to find Charlie.
      • He needs it to find Claire
    • However it would make sense if he was now able to remember both timelines. He could carry his memory of Charlie and Claire from the OT to the FST. This would be consistent with the the whole "merging of the timelines" plot direction that many fans theorize that LOST seems to be going in.
      • He said "I need to show them something."
• Desmond wants to "show them something". But who are them? He can't mean all of them. He probably means Hurley, Jack, Claire, Charlie, whom he has met / connected with after the actual flight. What for?
  • What if he DOES mean all of them? The entire flight? He could easily round up a lot of the backgrounds off camera.
    • "Them" refers to the Jack, Kate, Aaron, Hurley, Sayid and Sun: the Oceanic 6. He needs to help get them back over the island just like in the FFT.
      • he wants to show them what he expirienced from Charlie.
• Maybe Des will function, like Locke did as Bentham, in both timelines. Instead of convincing the Lost gang to return to the island, as Bentham tried to do; Des will have to show/convince all of them of the existence and acceptance of their sideways lives. Perhaps, he will have to sacrifice himself, as Locke did, to be used as some sort of connection to the sideways timeline. Because Des asked for the 815 manifest in the sideways timeline, maybe, he has to show/convince the sideways Lost gang of their original timeline lives to complete the connection. This will, somehow, lead to the elimination of the original timeline. Check out this recent story: Freaky Physics Proves Parallel Universes Exist .
• Why would Desmond even be interested in people on Oceanic flight 815 manifest? I mean, there was nothing in the episode that could make him think that those people were special and being on that flight had something to do with his strange experiences. On the other hand, if he knows it from OT, why would he need the manifest then?
  • Well there is a little bit to suggest that those people are special. Due to Charlie's influence he had visions of Charlie drowning. Desmond only knew Charlie from the plane. Then he ends up in Jack's hospital, where Jack specifically mentions that Charlie was on the plane with him and Desmond in a tone that made it sound as if the coincidence is weird to him as well. So the viewer, there are hints. Not to mention that Desmond has always had more insight than we, as viewers, can actually see.

Love

• Both Charlie and Daniel talk about a profound love. Both also imply that an awareness of that love made them realize the FST wasn't the only reality. When Jacob meets Sun and Jin at their wedding in "The Incident" he talks of the importance of their love.
• It seems that this "love" is an important element in unifying the two time lines.
• The people that they're in love with are their constants, which is why they're beginning too see the FST. It might have to be true love, though, which is why it isn't working for the likes of Jin and Sun. Or maybe it's something else because Jack loves Kate and in "LA X" they didn't notice each other but they did in "What Kate Does".
• It seems that when love happens, bad things occur. This is why Eloise Widmore wants to stop Desmond. She is clearly aware of the nature of things in the FST.
• Its not that bad things occur with love, it seems that the connections they formed on the journey with the island transcends the timelines. When they either encounter them or have a close death experience the connections are strong enough to bleed through, as if the love is not just at first sight but an experience from another whole life. It seems that this is what will wake the people of the alternate timelines, and Eloise knows the path that will follow if they choose to chase after these connections.
• Real love is such a power (white force) that it allows no alternative. It is a part of or even the reason for Course-correction. Its opposite force (dark force), which overrules sideways too, is probably death.
• The FST is the universe where no love and no evil exist, everything is just...well ok/content. The OT is the universe where love exists, but also a great evil. This is why Desmond and everyone wants to end the FST timeline - while everyone is content, no-one will experience the strongest human emotions: love and hate.
  • Bernard and Rose still seem very much in love, as do Locke and Helen.
  • Jin and Sun seem very much in love in the FST. Jin is, evidently, risking his life to be with Sun; Sun is prepared to leave everything behind to be with Jin. As for evil, Sawyer's parents are still dead.
• Love is a central theme of the show, and it is the centerpiece of the battle between The Man in Black and Jacob. The MiB causes a lack of love or compassion (evidenced by Sayid's recent attitude, and Claire lacks the compassion she once had but still shows some feeling). Jacob fights to make sure that the MiB does not escape. If he does escape, then as Widmore said, all relationships with loved ones will cease to exist. The loved ones won't disappear, but the compassion they felt will disappear.
• Love will be closely related to the issue of child birth. It will turn out that there are two candidates, and they are in love with each other. The child born of this union will be central to the final answer. Why start an alternative timeline in 1977, when you could start it at the very beginning of the human race. E.g. Adam and Eve. This maybe one of the main aims of the Dharma Initiative. Create a human race free from original sin.

Near-death experiences

• Quite possibly, Charlotte was the first to have “visions” of a sideways existence, under the duress of dying. She made references to historical characters. In “This Place Is Death”, she says: "I know more about ancient Carthage than Hannibal himself.” And she mentions eating chocolate. Sideways Charlotte works at a museum and Dan saw her eating chocolate. Hopefully, the other statement that Charlotte uttered will become a happy reality: "You know what my mother would say about me marrying an American." Dan and Charlotte married? Maybe?!!!
  • Too bad Faraday is not an American.
    • He seems pretty American to me. No accent. The mother could be referring to Daniel Widmore's naturalized status as one.
  • When Charlotte mentioned "eating chocolate" before dying, she was referring to her 1st encounter with Daniel Faraday in 1977.
• Both Charlie and Desmond began experiencing flashes to the OT after a near-death experience. Sun may begin experiencing the flashes as well due to her gunshot wound.
  • This may be why Juliette's last thoughts were "it worked" she was near death at the time and whitnessed a flash sideways.
  • Sayid may have had a similar experience at the temple when they tried to drown him. I thought of this because Desmond had the same jaded attitude that Sayid had.
  • Desmond also experienced flashes during the MRI (which subjected him to magnetic forces, sort of like Widmore's machine on Hydra Island but on a smaller scale). It's not clear whether a near-death experience is _necessary_, or whether it's merely one of many possible ways to trigger the flashes. Daniel apparently had flashes as well that inspired him to write down the quantum equations but there's no evidence that Daniel experienced either a near-death experience or a magnetic event. Instead it seems to have been triggered by seeing Charlotte (blue eyes, red hair), the woman he loved in the OT.
  • Daniel is very sensitive. The very sight of Charlotte evoked intense memories of love and the devastation of witnessing Charlotte's painful and tragic death.He is experiencing the memory of feelings rather than the memory of events associated with those feelings.In an earlier season, Daniel was weeping when he saw TV coverage of the "discovery of 815", without knowing why.
  • Daniel suffered extensive brain damage due to the tests conducted during his research, which could involved EM exposure. Also, Charlie was in the hatch when Desmond turned the failsafe key, which initially gave him this "gift", according to Widmore.
    • Charlie had left the hatch prior to Desmond turning the key.
• It is possible that the death of one of them in the alternate timeline will cause their consciousness to reach the originals from the island. It is also possible that the opposite may occur, the original's consciousness bleeding to the alternate timeline.
• This may be why Juliet, before dying, talks about going Dutch for a cup of coffee and then tells Sawyer she has something very important to tell him.
• I don't believe it's necessarily a near-death experience that can or will trigger flashes. It happens when they have a similar interaction or experience in the FST. In the OT, Charlie is hanged and suffocated by Ethan. In the FST he is suffocating on the bag on heroin. In the OT, Daniel meets a young Charlotte eating a candy bar. In the FST, he sees Charlotte eating a candy bar. In the FST, Desmond is watching a drowning Charlie put his hand to the glass from the other side of a closed door. In the OT, the same thing happens in the Looking Glass station. Of course, Desmond has another way entirely of experiencing flashes as well.

Eloise - the Keeper of Timelines

• Eloise Widmore is not necessarily aware of Desmond's role in saving the universe and is primarily concerned with keeping the timeline pure.
  • To her the FST is the real timeline and she believes whatever happens has to happen without influence from the other timeline.
  • Alternately she is being purely selfish -- in this timeline, her son will not travel to the island and be killed by her.
    • She intentionally discourages her son from studying physics in the FST, to avoid the fate of killing him on the island. That's why he's a musician now.
    • She tries to discourage Desmond from buying an engagement ring for Penny in the OT. Everything she does is to stop the timeline from going to OT until the right time.
  • Eloise Widmore is aware of both timelines and is waiting for the right moment to establish a necessary connection between the two. She is still the same Eloise that killed her son at one point and helped the Oceanic 6 with the plan to change the future. Thus, she knows that her current life is an alternate because she knows that the plan was successful. It is likely she has connection with her OT self, the one that sent the Oceanic 6 back.
• Eloise at some point left the island and became the scales, she keeps the balance and makes sure the rules are observed thats why she warned Desmond it was too early to get what he truly desired, she or a different aspect of her role may also have been the child entity that appeared to warn the MiB about killing a candidate. In her universe the scales are perfectly balanced (as seen in the painting), everyone has what they think they want but not what their soul truly desires. The MiB can grant a perfect world to his followers (Sayid getting the gril, adoption not being done) and that results in their listless state. Desmond however obtained what he truly desired for himself breaking the system and resulting in him becoming possibly an MiB follower in the normal universe. Eloise goal of perfect balance is being opposed by the Mib and Jacob who want a tipped universe.
  • Alternately Desmond is the first true Jacob follower, through self determination aquiring all he truly desired.
    • Hence, his statement to Charlie in the bar to the effect of "There's always a choice."
  • Eloise is the 'crazy' mother of MIB and Jacob. She controls the whole thing
    • She can't be their mother. We've already seen her on the island as a young woman, and Faraday is her child, who is very much unlike MIB and Jacob.
      • In a universe of time travel, talking to the dead, possession of corpses, people living "forever", etc.. it is folly to make a statement like that. For all we know Eloise in the FST is Jacob trying to fight Flocke in the OT (I like that theory just so I can say Feloise).
• The Island's function is the source of the universe's "course correction." As long as the Island exists it keeps MIB in check and the universe functioning properly. The FST is what happens when the universe can't course correct. In "Flashes Before Your Eyes," Eloise stops Desmond from buying the ring. But here she cannot stop him from seeing Penny. Nothing happens as it's supposed to- Charlie doesn't drown, for example- and Faraday says that our lives were not "supposed" to be this way. Eloise is attempting to get the FST back on track, but it seems she opposes Desmond in this regard.
  • Fate doesn't exist in the FST, perhaps they all have actual free-will.
  • The island is still course-correcting. It is still affecting the lives of the Losties. Daniel talks about the way their lives are "supposed" to be, much like Jack and Locke said they weren't "supposed" to leave. The fate of the island, and the survivors, will all come down to a choice that, like Charlie says, "isn't much of a choice at all."
• Eloise is not the Keeper of Timelines. FST Eloise has knowledge of what will happen in much the same way that OT Eloise used to always know what would happen next. That is, she either directly interacted with other, time-traveling characters or she observed the consequences of their actions. It has already been shown that OT Eloise's knowledge of what is going to happen has limits. After Desmond was shot by Ben, OT Eloise went to see Penny in the hospital. OT Eloise explained that her son was responsible for Desmond being shot. Penny asked if Desmond would be ok, to which OT Eloise responded, "For the first time in a long time, I don't know what's about to happen." OT Eloise had known what would happen because she had observed the time travelers and what they would do. Now that she'd caught up with them, so to speak, she no longer knew what would/should happen. FST Eloise, like OT Eloise before she caught up, knows what should happen because time travel has happened/will happen in FST time. Some of the O815 survivors in FST will travel back in time. For whatever reason, Eloise believes it is important that they do what they are supposed to and does not want them to deviate from their course. Here I assume the divergence between FST and OT happened when the nuke detonated. I also presume that the nuke, or events surrounding its detonation, are what sunk the island in FST.
  • I agree, Eloise would know that the nuke was detonated in attempt to alter the course of history. She would be, however, in a cool position of being alive to see that happen, and she would not care if the OT or FST remains the primary one, cuz she'd be able to continue living in either timeline, and she would consider that timeline the only true one.
  • Eloise has more than selfish reasons for blocking Desmond. Those around her fear confronting her like the devil. But she appears nice until Desmond demands the list. Who makes lists? Jacob. She uses the word "violation" which sounds like something MiB would say. She wants to know who he's been listening to. Who influences people with speech as much as Jacob/MiB?
    • The Candidate
      • and Hugo
  • Eloise has the same information in the OT and FST cuz she got the joural of Daniel which was with him when he died and even maybe a letter from Daniel, which was left for her sometimes in 1977, when he was working for Dharma outside the island. The journal and letter contains all the information Daniel had at that time, including about Desmond and his important role, the constant - variable theory etc. This information is added to what she knew happened after Daniel returned to the Island (and her killing him).In The OT Eloise decides that the sending of Daniel to the island is cruicial to the rescue of the island, so she push him to become a scientist very early in his life, and make all the arrangements for this to happen, including meeting with desmond and prepare him for his hatch destiny and so on. In the FST Eloise decides to change the past (and thus preventing her from killing him in 1977)so she lets Daniel to become a musician and tries to prevent Desmond connection with Penny (his "Constant").

Psychoanalytic Explanation of Split Timelines

• It makes sense now to view the double timelines in something like psychoanalytic terms. The people in the FST have dim memories/consciousness of their lives in the OT. They are like people who due to trauma have repressed tragic events. Psychoanalysis and related practices have often aimed at what one may call reintegration, which entails people remembering what they have repressed, which despite concomitant pain, they must do in order to be complete, whole, and fully happy. Thus, in "Happily Ever After," Desmond, Daniel, and Charlie have vague memories of the painful lives they have Lost (get it?). Yes, those lives were full of pain, but those lives also contained the love of their lives, and without one there is not the other. An end to the season/series is now imaginable (it was not for a long time): the characters will somehow reintegrate both sets of selves, OT and FST, a process that requires their agency, their choice. It is reminiscent of the Japanese animated film, Neon Genesis Evangelion. It will be interesting to see how it all eventually works out in Lost.

Eloise wants the FST to continue

• Eloise wants the FST to continue, rather than the OT. Everything she has done points to her manipulating events to help perpetuate the FST: She kills her own son in OT 1977. Because she acquires Faraday's journal in 1977, and because whatever happened, happened, years later she is aware of this fact when she tells Desmond he isn't supposed to buy the ring and marry Penny, she says he is supposed to go to the island. Similarly, in OT 2007 she tells Des that the island isn't done with him yet. This is because she knows Desmond is the key to reconciling one timeline over the other, and she wants the FST to survive. Similarly, she helps the Oceanic 6 to return to the island, at the same time helping to create Mib's loophole. In the FST, when Des asks her about Penny, she tells Desmond he's not ready, that he has everything he's ever wanted, and to stop looking for whatever he's looking for. She wants Desmond to avoid meeting Penny because it would trigger his awareness that the OT is the "true" reality; she wants to prevent that meeting until MiB is free and the OT "ceases to be". Eloise has everything to gain from this. In FST, her son is still alive, and she is living an affluent life married to Charles Widmore. Penny does not seem to be much of a factor in their lives in the FST, whereas in the OT it was Widmore's off island family that led to his exile and the apparent rift between Charles and Eloise.
• I believe that Eloise does not think that desmond deserves to find out about the OT because he never listened to her so she doesnt think that he deserves to be with penny Lockerocklocke 16:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Eloise is working for MiB and has been all along. As described above, she helped to perpetuate the series of events that have created the Sideways reality. She also makes mention of a "violation", something she is upset about, as she does not want Desmond to disrupt the Sideways reality.
  • Eloise is MIB having finally got off the Island.
    • Eloise is the MIB's Crazy mother. She is the one who has set up the rules. She is the governing body which determines the rules by which things are played out. She isn't omniscient, but she does know about various timelines.
• She wants FST to continue because in it her son, Daniel (which she herself killed) is still alive.

Desmond as a "great Man"

• Now Desmond has found purpose in both his flashsideways life and regular timeline life. This is a throwback to Charles Widmore telling him that he will never be a great man.
• Pushing the button in the OT is mirrored by his frequent texting in the FST. The vaccine in the OT is mirrored by alcohol in the FST. Perhaps the repetition is an analogy to the timelines (either FST or OT) repeating or being in a loop.
• In the OT he held the failsafe key, in the FST he IS the failsafe key. When he awakens after the "test" he finally has the courage to use it.
• Desmond has embraced choice and destiny. He knows, generally, what he is "supposed to do" and has decided to follow his destiny. That is why he follows Sayid, it is supposed to happen that way.Cabeckett 16:28, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Stadiums figure in both Desmond's OT and LST worlds. In these scenes, he is shown among concentric and straight lines, which signifies his role as man living within a larger design.

Sons

So if the OT is restored, Penny & Desmond's son comes into existence. However, if the FST is maintained, then Jack's son comes into existence -- & Dogen's son never dies. Is this a significant balance of possibilities? -- Llywrch 18:10, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Just remember, the FST timeline is only showing the events of 2004 right after the 815 flight. Charlie Hume was not born until late 2005, and as such could certainly still be born in the FST. The circumstances would be different, as Desmond just met Penny in the FST, but they seem to have hit it off, so who knows.
• Dogen's son supposedly does not die on the OT, he is saved by Jacob, but Dogen was asked to make a sacrifice in order for this "violation of natural course" to happen

You cannot have everything in this life. It is possible that the true desire they lacked and wanted in the OT is fulfilled in the FST, but to keep the balance, they need to then lose another of the desires they did have. For example, Jack gets a son in FST in the OT he may be able to get to fix things; Sun & Jin wanted to be together, but they may lose their daughter in the FST; Kate wanted to reunite Aaron with Claire but she's back to being a fugitive; Hurley may be lucky but maybe he won't have his gift anymore, etc.

FST Creation

Daniel Faraday (Widmore) indicates that he believes that he at one point helped detonate an atomic bomb. This seems to indicate that Juliet did succesfully detonate Jughead, and that its detonation caused a timeline split in order to ensure that "What ever happened, happened." This would also mean that all differences between FST and OT officially begin in 1977.

• While the event of the bomb going off occurred in '77, there is the question of did the timelines split at that point, or did the Jughead explosion also undo key events leading up to the explosion?
• Jughead must have undone at least some events leading up to the explosion since the FST (which veered off from OT in 1977) includes Roger Linus (who apparently was on the island before the detonation), Ben (presumably unaffected by the healing done at the Temple, ie "loss of innocence"), Eloise & Charles (who also were on the island during the detonation). Yet FST Eloise at least some knowledge of the original timeline.
  • Pre-explosion in the OT Roger was on the island (or just recently evacuated) and Ben was with the others, whereas in the FST Roger talked about how they left the island and was wondering if the their lives could have been different if they had stayed. Therefore the explosion must have undone some pre 1977 events too, since Roger and Ben could not have just left the island together pre-explosion and even if somehow they had, Roger would have been wondering what their lives were like if they hadnt evacuated and would have known about the explosion.
  • It's not necessarily the case that events had to have been altered pre-explosion. From the last time we saw Widmore, Hawking, and Roger, they would have had enough time to evacuate the island prior to the incident occurring (especially considering an evacuation was underway already). Additionally, it's not clear how quickly the island collapsed/exploded. Given that no one knows what the exact repurcussions of the H-bomb/electromagentic interaction would be, it's feasible a "slow burn" may have destroyed the island (a gradual sinking over hours or days), that would have allowed for a more comprehensive evacuation.
  • Whatever happened happened. Events before Jughead are FIXED. Unaltered.
• FST is the OT circa 1977 that simply continued after the detonation. Because OT Hurley, Sayid, Kate, Daniel, et al were displaced in time at the time jughead detonated, their young 1977 selves were able to continue along their OT paths, but without the intervention of Jacob. With Jacob or some other force no longer at play, significant changes exist in the FST when viewed against the OT circa 2007. It is notable that along with the many changes within the main characters' lives, Widmore and Ben no longer have any connection.
• There are two possibilities:

One - Jughead goes ka-boom on the Island. Having said that it does not automatically mean that people on the island are dead right away. The H-Bomb theoretically can sink an island that big, but remember that the explosion happened underground (and considerably deep, deeper than 20 meters for sure, judging by the looks of the shaft where it fell. This would create a hollowness and eventually sink the island, but it would still take time (I'm not sure if it would even sink the island, but it could). Two - Faraday says that he wants to blow up an H-Bomb to negate the energy found inside the island. The negation of that energy may mean literally canceling things out, and breaking the bottle (as MiB alluded a couple of episodes back). That means that while the bomb goes ka-boom, the energy of that ka-boom is used up to negate the electromagnetic energy, which, if it is possible, would still give a good shake to the ground, but would be considerably smaller, since part of the jughead energy went to negate the electromagnetism.

• You can't "sink" an island, they are not floating masses, they are merely the peaks of a geologic feature. You could blow up an island, but you can't cause it to take on water and sink.
  • It is common geological knowledge, however, that landmasses do rise and fall when humans tinker with the underlying surface. Petroleum drilling and aquifer pumping can sink landmasses while pumping excess carbon dioxide into the ground can raise it back up. The strange ability for the Island to disappear - which also can not happen to islands - coupled with the interaction of the strange electromagnetic energy pocket with the nuclear explosion is enough of an explanation for an Island having sunk without going into unnecessary details not dealing with the story.

A major anomalous event, such as the Jughead explosion, could create ripples forward as well as backward in time, especially given that the losties traveled to many different points of time before 1977 and couldn't do so if they never reached the Island. Therefore, the explosion is the cause of the creation of the FST, but it's not the starting point of the differences -- things can be different before 1977.

• One cannot change the past via changing something in the future: it has to do with future and the past of the light cone. If the explosion of jughead could change something in the past that would violate causality, and causality is a build-in concept in out universe, that cannot be changed.
• One effect of the backwards ripple is sinking the Island before the DI and possibly even before the Black Rock arrived.
  • Except that Roger talks about Linus and him being on the Island with the Dharma Initiative.
  • And the Barracks are seen on the "sunken" island.
    • Ok so here's some food for thought: In what we consider the OT is Seasons 1-5. When the losties travel back into 1977 (actually, by the time Jughead is detonated it's 1980, because Sawyer and crew lived there for 3 years before Jack and crew came back.) They evac the island and Jughead goes off, Split. I dont think that the Seasons 1 - 5 is really considered an "orignial timeline" at all, it's just another sideways universe between the years of 1980 and say 2007. If you take a striaght line then split it into two lines which continue on, they are both beside each other until they merge into one again, if they do at all. So anyways back to the split. Yes Roger linus admitted they were on the island. How do we know that he wasn't evacuated. He merely suggested that things may have been different if they had stayed. We haven't met FST Miles father yet, we only know that he works at the museum. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that he knows just like FST Eloise. They met the ("OS losties) back before they left the island. I'll bet you anything that if the FST losties traveled back in time, they'd meet the OT losties. I think the Jughead sunk the island. which we saw in LA X, the broken statue and New Otherton. There proves that where it split. What a real question is, is how much does FST Dr. Candle, Eloise and Charles know about the other timeline. It also explains why Eloise didn't push Daniel to go the Physics route. because she killed him herself, and when the timeline split, she let him follow his heart. It almost seems that between the two timelines there is a dark timeline and a light one. Where Jacob and MIB figure into the FST is another question. Any ideas? Where this is all heading, I have my own thoughts, but would rather just see how it ends by watching. I hope this all makes sense since i'm typing as i go.
      • You are suggesting that, for the duration of the show, there have been two timelines that were split at the Jughead explosion. One is what we call the OT and is off-balance in one direction, and the other is what we call the FST, and is off balance in the other direction. It just so happens that the show chose to focus on one timeline (the so-called OT), but this doesn't make it somehow better or stronger. So reuniting the timelines does not return to some state we've already seen in earlier seasons, but some third, unified timeline the show has not yet depicted.
• One reality (the "OT") would be the straight result of the time travel without the ripples and the other with the ripples (FST).
• The timeline did not split when the bomb was detonated, but rather when the events that led up to the detonation of the bomb first interfered with the OT. Therefore the change would have began at the furthest point back in time, when the "time-jumpers" (i.e. Locke and crew) walked into the army camp and spoke with Richard in 1955 (not sure of the exact year). It could possibly have happened even further back during the "statue" time-jump, but they didn't really do anything during that jump that would have interfered with the OT. This could also be the extreme measures that MIB speaks of when he says "You have no idea what I've been through to be here." to Jacob. He may have steered Locke in a direction to interfere with the OT and therefore direct the entire timeline to allow his plan to come to fruition. Case in point: MIB told Richard to tell Locke that he would need to talk with him in the next time-jump, therefore, without MIB's intervention, would Locke have ever become the leader, if Richard was never told that he would be? And if Locke had never become leader, MIB would never get his chance to take Locke's form and enter Jacob's lair.
• The detonation of jughead enabled the OT since it helped to negate the EM influence. The FST is a parallel reality in which the sending of Daniel Faraday to the Island never occured,because his mother decided in this reality not to sacrifice her son's life for the Island. In this scenario the Island sank because of the EM burst at the swan caused by Dharma (the sinking was not immediate).

FST as a timeline where desires are met

In "Happily ever after", Eloise tells Desmond that he has "...the perfect life and has attained the thing he wanted most", being Charles Widmore's respect. As this statement comes from Eloise, it begs the question: Is the FST a place where life is perfect and desires are met? In examining the FST characters so far;

• Desmond - has perfect life and respect of Charles Widmore (yet has no love, does not have Penny)
• Jack - successful Doctor, has a son (Is single)
• Locke - engaged to Helen, seemingly at peace and happy working as substitute teacher (but still a paraplegic in a wheelchair)
• Ben - educated man, caring son to Roger, cares about teaching students (but has no power. He has Alex, but only as student, not as daughter)
• Sayid - Nadia is alive again and in his life (As an in-law, not wife)
• Hurley - considers himself the luckiest man in the world as opposed to unlucky
• Sun & Jin - are very happy together (though not married)
  • Except Sun just got shot and perhaps has lost the baby.

• The FST timeline is meant to show that you can't have everything. To gain something, you have to sacrifice something else.

Theory: the FST is where people get what they want, and are relatively contented with life, but in someway they have had to forego or sacrifice something very important. So they are not actually "happy".

• This theory excludes Kate, Sawyer, Rose, Charlie, and depending on what happens to them, Jin and Sun.
  • Ford is on the right side of the law. Whether or not he finds Sawyer hasn't been determined. (He is also alone in life)
  • Rose and Charlie have yet to have an episode focused on them on the FST. They are relatively minor characters and might not have any further exposition.
    • Rose is successful working for Hurley but still has cancer. Bernard has apparently accepted her illness, but may lose her.
    • Charlie's band is still together and is apparently popular. His brother doesn't live in Australia. But he doesn't have Claire and is still a junkie.
  • Kate's might take a minute to explain. In the OT she committed a "justified homicide" from which she rightfully escaped with no guilt or remorse for either the murder or her escape. In the FST she killed an innocent man on accident. It is possible she feels guilty and ultimately desires to pay for her crime, and it appears she will.
    • Kate wanted to save Claire and make sure she and Aaron were together, which she did, but she loses her freedom.
      • The problem with this is, Kate hadn't met Claire until the Flight 815. I have a problem believing her heart's desire is to help a total stranger. I still think FST Kate wants to come to justice and pay for her crimes.
        • OT Kate wanted to save Claire and reunite her with Aaron. It was her only motivation for the last couple seasons and still is. The theory is that the OT characters get what they want most. Thus, in the FST Claire gets to be with Aaron because the flight doesn't crash and the adopters backed out. Kate has to face still being wanted because it wasn't the wish she asked for.
  • Faraday is alive and a pianist, which is what he wanted to be as a child, but doesn't have Charlotte.
    • On a related note, the Widmores don't lose their son and are married. Downside?
  • Miles never lived a life estranged/separated from his father. Downside?

Desires are met but in a very superficial form, kind of a "be careful what you wish for" when the devil / a genie / etc grants you a wish and gives you exactly what you ask for but in a way you didn't anticipate. ("I want to be famous" -> you are a notorious serial killer in prison.)

The FST is a way to placate one or more people by giving them what someone (Eloise? MiB?) thinks they want. But it is like life in a gilded cage and once the fun wears away, it is unsatisfying, saccharine.

FST and OT are contrasting political theories

What is interesting to note about these ideas are the political theories of Jeremy Bentham and JJ Rousseau. Bentham (who is in Lost, in essence, MIB) boiled down to a line states "find out what everyone wants, and give it to them," where as Rousseau states that "determine laws for yourself and live by them/giving into pleasure is slavery." The juxtaposition between these two seem to fit MIB and Jacob quite fittingly. In that, the OT would align itself more with Roussean theory, and the FST would align itself more with Bethamian theory. If we are to believe the choice of these political theorists as something more than casual, it would seem to make sense that the FST is the timeline that represents, perhaps, the MIB winning.

This is a serious misstatement of both theories. Bentham's utilitarianism does postulate the greater happiness of the greater numbers as the criterion for the evaluation of governance; however, it considers such desirable governance to be an outcome of rational individual choices. Rousseau's 'communitarianism', in fact, places even stronger emphasis on communal good conceptualised as General Will.

FST is Jacob's attempt to eliminate MiB

At some point in time (post Black Rock and pre-US Military) Jacob determined that as long as MiB exists, there is a chance he *could* escape the island, thus destroying the world. Assuming that MiB's destruction can only be caused by his departure of the island, Jacob needed to find a way to allow MiB to escape, but still keep the world around. Jacob comes to the realization that this can only happen if he can create a timeline paradox, thus creating a time line split. After accomplishing this (by manipulating the lives of the 815ers, and orchestrating the time flashes), he allows himself to be killed, so that MiB can attempt an escape. The OT is destroyed, but everyone lives "Happily Ever After" in the FST.

• This theory is based on the assumption that Jacob is more aware of the workings of the universe than MiB.

The Two Timelines and Schrodinger's Cat

We are seeing both potential outcomes of The Incident this season. Given the creators' fondness of scientific theory, it could be that they are showing us what happens inside the box in the Schrodinger's Cat theory. Both realities exist, until one is proven as true. When that happens, the other reality ceases to exist. Right now, either reality could be the "true" reality, but until somebody 'opens the box' to see which one it is, both of them exist.

When exposed to high doses of electromagnetism, Desmond can seen flashes of the other reality (Desmond X has brief flashes of the OT when in the MRI, and Desmond Prime had a prolonged flash of the FST when in the reactor). Desmond prime is now working to ensure that his reality is the "true" one when the time comes for one to be proven as true.

• Desmond is the only person who can "open the box" and establish a timeline. In the Schrodinger's Cat allegory Desmond is the observer and he decides which timeline is true.
  • Even if we accept the premise that Desmond is the 'observer' of the Schrodinger's Cat allegory, it is highly unlikely that he will have the power to choose which one of the time-lines is true. In the original allegory, the point at which the observer opens the box does determine which one of the two realities is true. However, the observer's power is limited to uncovering whether the cat is alive or dead, he does not have the power to determine the cat's fate. Therefore, if the Schrodinger's cat allegory does apply to Lost, Desmond will determine which time-line is true, but he will not get to decide which one will continue to exist.
    • However in Wheeler's delayed choice experiment a quantum state can be influenced, not merely by observation but by deciding which observation to make.
  • The other thought is that Desmond is the cat and has to be sacrificed to get the true timeline established.
• The OT and FST as a literal take on Schrödinger's Cat is to simple for Lost. In the FST we are witness to changes that happenend before the incident. As the incident itself is a product of the intervention of the O815-passengers, there has to be an other "incident" probably caused by Desmond. The OT incident is part of the paradox loop that is caused by O815 crashing on the island and by its time shifting passengers and therefore cannot be the reason for the loophole. (Taken the ending is conclusive.)
  • ADDENDUM: In FST Jacob doesn't even need candidates any more for taking his place, because without the intervention of the O815-passengers he is not killed. (It's even possible that Jacob and the MIB are not on the island without the crash of O815.)

The Manipulated Dead

As in "Donnie Darko", the people who died in the original timeline are being used (by Jacob?) to move the living Island dwellers towards their destinies, which is back on the Island in the original timeline. This would explain why Minkowski, Charlie and Daniel each seem to be moving Desmond towards Penny, which ultimately leads Desmond to take action to join the timelines. In fact, the dead are influencing the main characters all over the place in the sideways timeline (Sawyer and Charlotte, Sayid and Nadia, Keamy and Omar, Jin /Sun and Keamy, Omar and Mikhail,Claire and Ethan, etc.)

Establishing Constants in the FST

• According to Daniel in The Constant, Eloise (the rat) couldn't tell the difference between the past, the present or the future, as she didn't have anything to attach herself to; a constant - something that is present in both times, that one sincerely cares about and one can recognize.
• Eloise has knowledge of the OT because she has a constant in each timeline who has yet to be revealed.
• Penny is Desmond's constant. The moment Desmond shakes Penny's hand, he shifts to the OT where he appears to realize there are two timelines and that he has to do something about it.
• Claire is Charlie's constant that he was able to see in his near death experience in the FST. After seeing her, he has an understanding that something isn't right in the FST.
• Although Desmond was Daniel's constant in the different times within the OT; Charlotte is Daniel's constant between the OT and FST. After seeing Charlotte, Daniel's knowledge of physics came back and he realized there were two timelines.
• In the FST, Desmond is going to use the Oceanic manifest to bring the Losties together. In doing so, they will find their constants and be able to tell that there are two timelines.
  • It's just as likely that he might try to give them all a near-death experience, as Charlie explained that's how he pierced through the reality of the FST and saw the OT.

Buffet Theory

There's been a lot of talk about getting what you want in the FST and living happily ever after. So, that got me thinking about how the two stories might reconcile. And then I thought how when I want Chinese food and fried chicken, I reconcile my food preferences by going to a buffet, and I live fully ever after. The reconciliation of the timelines will be similar. The characters, or a character (maybe the new Jacob) will get to piece together elements from both timelines and create their own timeline. Charlie and that girl will be together. Locke will be alive. Charlotte will not be aneurysmed. Other gems like that will be a part of the new, finished reality.

Penny "Milton"

• Perhaps Penny is married in the FST, which could act as a plot device to motivate Desmond into doing something about changing the timeline.
  • Penny is not married (though may be divorced), which is why it was "plus zero" on her RSVP.
  • Daniel also probably would not have encouraged Desmond to pursue his half-sister if she was married.
• "Milton" may be Penny's mother.
• Not only is "Milton" the maiden name of Penny's mother, but Penny was raised by her as a single mother without any strong presence of Penny's biological father (Widmore) in her life. Therefore, in the FST, Charles Widmore is to Penny as Christian Shephard is to Claire in the original timeline...a reluctant parent who (deep down) cares for their illegitimate child but retains minimal contact with them. In the original timeline, Penny's mother and Charles married, and the estrangement between Charles and Eloise resulted in Daniel being marginalized within his biological father's life. In the FST, the opposite has occurred: Charles and Eloise married, while Penny's mother became estranged from Charles, causing Penny to be virtually non-existent in her birth father's life. Perhaps FST Charles still financially supports FST Penny out of guilt (much like Sawyer did to Clementine), and maybe at one point FST Daniel sought out FST Penny after discovering they were related -- the two half-siblings may have struck up a closeness despite FST Penny's relative estrangement from FST Charles. Which would be why Penny Milton has been invited to the Widmore-sponsored event...her half-brother (FST Daniel) invited her.
• Milton is a reference to John Milton, author of Paradise Lost. Penny is Desmond's lost paradise.
• Maybe Daniel meant that Penny "actually" is his half-sister. Like in: "in reality (or in the OT) she is m half-sister". In the FST Penny is the daughter of someone else.
• Milton is the surname of George Milton from Of Mice and Men. He sacrifices his friend for his own good. ("The Substitute")